Classless World of Kaantasu

[LordWolfKnight]

so for my world there are no classes for players to take. They pick and choose from a variety of options and build something very similar to the generic classes. They gain features through a sort of buying system, it costs so many points to buy this option. They are allotted so many points to build with so on an so forth. the problem i have is i want to to use spell points and while there is a spell point system it doesn't work with the rest of the system i have. yes there are four different values but there is no way to start with lower points overall and still have points at first level, short of having bonus points. so i was wondering if anyone here has figured out how Wotc came up with the spell point numbers?

if there is no real answer to be given how would i go about making a system that is fairly balanced that has three forms, least, lesser, greater. i would need help with the math so please dont just throw numbers and math terms at me and expect me to be able to figure it out. i also have a brain injury so that doesn't help either. any help with this is greatly appreciated.

[Marcotix]

IDK if I'd be the one to help but it'd probably be best if you laid out your point buy system, then people can help you fit in spell buy into it. Right now I don't know enough to even suggest how things might work.

[Mechalich]

This is a mechanics-based question and not a world-building question and is therefore probably in the wrong place.

More broadly, to do what you are trying to do the solution is to not use D&D. Instead use an actual point buy system. Unless you are trying to design a game for actual sale, it is almost never worth the effort to build a game whole cloth, just take an existing system and modify it.

[LordWolfKnight]

okay where would be the best place to put this? i was looking for a system to mix with 3.5 for the world itself. so far i have found nowhere to put it that makes any sense

[jqavins]

Well, GURPS is a classless, completely point buy system with spell points. One's base spell points are equal to one's Health (constitution) attribute, and one can use character points to buy more spell points. (Magic runs off Fatigue, and the base value for that is Health. There is a standard rule for extra Fatigue. If you want extra spell points that are independent of that, it would be a very easy house rule to implement.)

It would not work to drop the GURPS system into a 3.P setting, but GURPS has lots of world building supplements available.

If you're intent on a DIY system that fits into a 3.P setting, then I must repeat that you haven't provided enough information on the rest of the system that this magic system needs to fit into.

[brian 333]

A point about classless systems: players create classes anyway.

I used to play and referee a classless game system called Traveller. I discovered that players, myself included, tended to build characters around a theme, such as "shooter," "melee," "mechanic," "pilot," etc.

Every game can be min-maxed by players. Because it is an effective strategy, eventually those who do not min-max find themselves outmatched by those who do. In any system, being a Jack-Of-All-Trades is an overall handicap because the character can do anything, but does nothing well. Characters who are focused out-perform those which are not.

There is no difference between a character in a classless system optimized for fighting and a Fighter. So what if your classless guy can cast a spell? It only means one less ability available for fighting. Your optimized spellcaster is functionally a wizard, no matter that it can wield a broadsword with less skill than the optimized fighter.

The D&D classes begin by optimizing the characters by their intended role for you. In classless systems you have to do it yourself. The only real difference is that in classless systems it is possible to build characters with no focus at all.

[jqavins]

A point about classless systems: players create classes anyway. [Etc.]

Yes, they do. But the rest of this post has statements I agree with and some I dispute.

The jack of all trades character, a theme I really like, ends up not working well. Sadly, I have to agree with this.

But a classless system, when well crafted, allows a level of flexibility in choosing or creating a character focus that isn't possible in a classed system unless it has hundreds of classes. With all of (for example) D&D3.5's supplements, third party supplements, and homebrew, it does have hundreds of classes, and that's one of its biggest problems. Who can keep up with all the base classes and prestige classes from all these sources? Lots of these classes are grossly overpowered, a few are underpowered, some are silly (not in a good way) and some are virtually the same as others. There are just too damn many classes!

In a good classless system with a large-not-huge set of abilities to pick from, one can create a well focused character who's focused any way you want. Even if a few custom abilities need to be created to accommodate a particular concept, there won't be the same explosion of abilities that there has been in classes.

[Knaight]

A point about classless systems: players create classes anyway.

I used to play and referee a classless game system called Traveller. I discovered that players, myself included, tended to build characters around a theme, such as "shooter," "melee," "mechanic," "pilot," etc.

Granting for the moment that these themes are equivalent to classes* the class options of the classes made are vastly broader - it takes a lot of classes to get the same sort of flexibility as a far more minimalist classless game.

*Which is already a bit tenuous for a few reasons, starting with how they can be very specific and how they often map better to professions in a lot of ways.

[Dusk Raven]

A point about classless systems: players create classes anyway.

I used to play and referee a classless game system called Traveller. I discovered that players, myself included, tended to build characters around a theme, such as "shooter," "melee," "mechanic," "pilot," etc.

That's not really the same though. Classes are where people pick a particular package of abilities, with varying amounts of flexibility. Class systems don't give you that package, or at best said packages are suggestions, and you are perfectly capable of mixing and matching as you please, for the most part. That people tend to go with particular themes is to be expected, but isn't the same as "creating a class."

I will also say that in systems with classes, character balance is affected by the effectiveness of those classes in a way that classless systems aren't. In a classless system you mostly need to worry about the effectiveness of individual options relative to their cost, while in D&D 3.5 you have entire classes that are less useful than others, sometimes compared to other classes which do the same basic thing.

In any system, being a Jack-Of-All-Trades is an overall handicap because the character can do anything, but does nothing well. Characters who are focused out-perform those which are not.

Bit of a tangent here, but I wouldn't necessarily say they out-perform non-focused characters, because things can get more complex than that. I myself like playing characters who can do at least two things reasonably well, because while versatility means you can't do things as effectively as a specialist would, it does mean you're more consistently useful. For example, in a 5e D&D campaign I'm in, I play a War Domain Cleric and while I generally like going into melee combat, if I'm in tight spaces and it's best for the Fighter to be in front, or if we encounter a creature that's resistant to physical weapons, or if I really don't want to get close to a foe, I'm going to be very grateful for my spellcasting abilities. All of those listed situations have happened, and because I'm a martial spellcaster I have a lot more freedom to avoid disadvantageous situations and choose the best route.

That being said, how effective that sort of thing is, really depends on the system and to some extent on the DM. Some systems are better at providing options for multirole characters, and some DMs can spice encounters up better than others. And then there are always some things that the party only ever needs one party member to do, like trapfinding. And of course, if you split your focus too many times you end up diluting it too much, which is why jacks-of-all-trades aren't nearly as popular as, say, gishes. But there are things to be said for characters who don't specialize in a single thing.