Status Effects

[Meta]

What conditions do you think are the best designed in 4e? Which are you annoyed to see on the other side of the table, or happy to play with yourself? Which are underpowered or maybe a little too good?

[Beoric]

I dislike "immobilize" because the mechanics never match the fluff. I figure if your legs aren't working you can't pivot either, and should grant CA.

[ThePurple]

What conditions do you think are the best designed in 4e?

Daze (just the right amount of inhibiting the action economy without being OP) and restrained are done really well, imo. Weakened works really well too, since it's a great way to reduce combat effectiveness without making someone feel useless. Blinded is potent but rare; I wish it were more common, though part of the problem is that it relies entirely upon the Stealth/hidden rules for the mechanical penalty (nested rules are bothersome).

Which are you annoyed to see on the other side of the table, or happy to play with yourself?

It's always bothered me that slow reduces the move speed of *everyone* to 2 spaces, whether they've got a move speed of 12 or a move speed of 3. If I was redoing the game, I'd probably make slow effects variable (e.g. slow 4 reduces move speed by 4) with the move speed minimum being 2.

I really enjoy immobilize but I'll echo Beoric insofar as the fluff of it is really poorly defined. On top of that, it's supposed to be balanced with daze, but daze just does *so much more* since immobilize just takes away a few basic movement options without truly affecting your action economy at all. I'd be a lot happier if immobilize was beefed up a bit (grant CA, can't move, *and* lose your move action).

Petrified doesn't really have much place as a standard status effect, imo, since it's basically stun with additional details (high DR at heroic but pretty trivial at epic and they can Coup de Grace you). It's rare enough that I think it would just be better left to variant stun effects.

Which are underpowered or maybe a little too good?

Deafened is kind of pointless, honestly. It pretty much only pops up in combat, when the effects of it are either ignored ("can't hear" should translate into "can't communicate with allies" but that's too hard to implement for most games) or irrelevant (-10 to Perception doesn't really mean much because Perception checks in combat are pretty rare except when trying to pinpoint hidden enemies and, even then, it's only problematic if no one else in the party is suffering from it). I would love something more mechanically robust added to it since, as it stands, it's basically just a fluff mechanic, even if it were something as simple as "you provoke OAs from all adjacent enemies when making any attack" (since your ability to take in the entire combat is impaired).

Dominated and stun are *way* too good, especially when used by PCs. They're the reason that solo monsters *require* ways to shrug off status effects. Even when used by NPCs, they're so good that they make it unfun to be used against players because the effects are so massive. I tend to just rewrite "dominate" as "at the start of your turn, you must make a free action basic attack that does not provoke OAs against an ally of the dominator's choice".

Prone is way too strong, imo, especially given how easy it is to apply (and how many feats and other bonuses can be gained to take advantage of it). It's also got some fluff problems because it's supposed to represent being unsteady but I'm not sure how a snake would take an entire move action to recover from "being unsteady" in the same way that it takes an entire move action for a bipedal creature to stand back up.

[Kurald Galain]

Slow is often irrelevant because it doesn't prevent charging, meaning enemies can still move four squares and attack, which is usually enough. Deafness is, as Purple points out, entirely useless. Immob is too similar to restrained, so they shouldn't be two conditions. Likewise, stun and petrify. And likewise, "grants combat advantage" as a separate condition, since most conditions already do that.

That leaves daze, weaken, and blind as the interesting ones; prone is usually equivalent to one turn of dazing. Of course, way too many powers have their own condition type (e.g. "-2 to all attacks" should really have been a standardized condition). Overall they could have gone with more variety here, e.g. how 5E has the explicit charmed and frightened conditions.

A problem in the game is that caster-type enemies or PCs can basically ignore most conditions. Burst/blast powers bypass blindness; ranged characters don't care about dazed or immob. And buffing/debuffing powers ignore weakened. A wizard who's dazed, blind, and prone is not noticeably less effective than a wizard in peak condition.

A bigger problem is the sheer amount of conditions PCs can unload upon an enemy in a single turn, particularly a solo. This also tends to make people lose track of when exactly which condition ends.

[Dimers]

Not specific to 4e, but ... domination or control of another creature ... a staple of fantasy literature, but a bad thing to include in a combat game. It makes no sense to not make it an all-or-nothing ability. But then if PCs can use it, they get a cakewalk, and if it's inflicted on them, they're out of the game.

Blinded is potent but rare; I wish it were more common, though part of the problem is that it relies entirely upon the Stealth/hidden rules for the mechanical penalty (nested rules are bothersome).

Eh? It imposes CA, prevents you from getting CA against anyone else, and gives you -5 to all targeted attacks. That sounds like a pretty serious mechanical penalty to me.

[Yakk]

Immobalized should usually be a different condition called "trapped by X", where X prevents you from leaving the square (and possibly other effects) until some condition is met. Or maybe some other term; but the relationship should be highlighted. There are even rulings DMs have to do (what happens when you teleport? Are you still immobalized?) that depend on what you are trapped by!

[Highfeather]

I dislike "immobilize" because the mechanics never match the fluff. I figure if your legs aren't working you can't pivot either, and should grant CA.

It gets even worse when you realize an immobilized and prone enemy can stand up just fine...

On that note, I wish there was a proper condition related to Grabs. As it is, Grabs just immobilize people which can get silly in the above situation. And yes, I'm aware there's a feat for it, though with Str 17 + Fighter requirements it's a bit ridiculous.

I do like Dazed and Weakened, and I suppose Restrained (though I've barely seen that one ingame). Aside from that, Deafened is useless, and Stun and Dominate are extremely annoying for PCs to fight against. Monsters too I suppose, but the DM is less likely to get bored because he likely still has more than one character to keep track of.

[Vhaidara]

On that note, I wish there was a proper condition related to Grabs. As it is, Grabs just immobilize people which can get silly in the above situation. And yes, I'm aware there's a feat for it, though with Str 17 + Fighter requirements it's a bit ridiculous.

The creature is immobilized.
Maintaining this condition on the creature occupies whatever appendage, object, or effect the grabber used to initiate the grab.
This condition ends immediately on the creature if the grabber is subjected to an effect that prevents it from taking actions, or if the creature ends up outside the range of the grabbing power or effect.

A grabbed creature can take the escape action to try to get away. Other common tactics for escaping a grab are to teleport away or to be pulled, pushed, or slid out of the grabber's reach. Using forced movement on the grabber can also end a grab, as long as the movement results in the grabbed creature being out of the grabbing effect's range.

While a creature is grabbed, the grabber can try to move it (see “Moving a Grabbed Target”.)

I for one am fond of Dazed and Weakened. Marked is also a fantastic addition to the roster of conditions.

I for one actually like Slow/Immobilize/Restrain, though I do think Slow could do with something like "base speed is set to 2". The key difference between immobilize and restrain is that you cannot be force moved while restrained. Though I wouldn't object to immobilize being renamed. As far as "immobilized by X", that's literally what Grabbed is for. Likewise, teleporting breaks grab but doesn't break immobilize.

Blind would be up there, but I dislike how much of a disparity of effect it is. Everyone grants CA and can no longer gain CA, but if you're focused on close/area attacks, it does nothing else, while if you're focused on melee/ranged attacks it is BRUTAL. And there's no equivalent condition that hoses area/close while leaving melee/ranged alone.

Prone is fairly powerful for its ease of access, but is also of limited effectiveness with 4e's standard action charging. Where it really shines is in combination with another condition. Slowed and Proned, or Dazed and Proned, for example, are MUCH more potent.

I agree with the above commentary on Dominate being in this weird niche of kind of needing to be there due to being iconic but also being impossible to balance well. I think the various Charm spells from enchantment do a good job of emulating what Dominate should look like though.

Deafened is kind of in a weird spot where it feels like it was kept around for legacy reasons.

[darkbard]

Deafness is, as Purple points out, entirely useless.

A minor quibble, as for all practical intents and purposes this is true, but I have seen a few powers listed in several CharOp guides (I can't recall any off the top of my head) that do call out being aware of the deafened condition as it reduces or nullifies the power's effect.

But, yes, deafened has never been a factor in my game yet!

[Meta]

Thanks for all the replies, this helps a lot. I've been working on my own take on the genre and I appreciate everyone giving their opinions. The first status effects I designed were a Slow(X), a Daze, and then a condition for allowing characters to still fight after falling below 0 HP but at massively reduced effectiveness (like a super weakened that makes you suck at defense too) so I'd say I mostly had the same thoughts as a lot of you.

Blind and codifying a mark/threaten/taunt, etc. of some sort seems like the next steps to take.

How do you feel about 5e's approach to prone, where standing up only uses half of a character's movement?

[Yakk]

I'd argue that *almost all* immobalized is "Grabbed by X". Sometimes X is implied.

The other kinds of immobalized are a kind of paralysis or fear based effect.

Slowed could be "you can move no more than 2 squares in an action, unless you teleport." Or "all terrain movement costs are doubled", which naturally excludes teleport without doing so explicitly.

Dominate should be treated as an "I win" button moreso than it is. If we added a kind of struggle and psychic damage to it? So you can "fight back" with your mind?

Shaken and Terrified would be good additions. Deafened could be a form of Shaken that isn't morale based, while most Shaken would have a Fear keyword. Maybe the effects of Daze without the action econony (you grant CA, you cannot gain CA?) Or maybe you must roll twice on attacks and take the worst result, and you grant CA?

Terrified (by X) would be the 5e condition where you cannot move closer to the source of your terror. It could even include "one action on your turn must be the move or run move action where each square must be further away from the source of your terror than you started. You must instead use the shift action if adjacent to an enemy, you do not have to move into dangerous terrain, but otherwise must spend every square of movement you can. You may not spend your last (move or standard) action on your turn until you have done this, and cannot end your turn with an unexpended (move or standard) action if you have not done this."

The fun thing about both Shaken and Terrified is that it can tie to Intimidate that is less binary than "enemy surrenders" -- being able to Shake or Terrify foes with Intimidate when you defeat one of their allies, or even bloody them, is flavourful and fun.

[Highfeather]

-RC quote-

I'm aware of the Rules Compendium definition. I didn't mean 'should have a proper condition' as it lacking a definition so much as it lacking something unique. Because as it is, the Grabbed condition still directly calls out 'Immobilized', it's just more conditional. Which is both boring and pretty bad. The only unique thing it has is the ability to move a grabbed target, but that's such a bad option mechnically since it takes your Standard action, involves a rather difficult check and doesn't even do all that much since you can only move half your speed.

It should do something mechanically distinct and interesting. Some random and totally not well thought out ideas: Move Actions to move enemies with some check (Athletics?), giving enemies small attack penalties for being grabbed (perhaps versus specific targets) or a check/saving throw to forcefully drag the enemy with you when you're forced to move (and would normally automatically end the grab). And of course make sure the enemies can't stand up when prone and grabbed by default.

[MwaO]

I like to changed Stunned/Dominated into losing just your standard action at the start of your turn. Which does a couple of things:
Stunned/Dominated PCs/Monsters still get to do things. If the dominated request is to charge, then the dominated creature gets to do minor/move first, otherwise after.
Stunned+Dazed is full-fledged stunned. Dominated+Dazed is full-fledged dominated.

Also, I like to give Solos and to a lesser extent Elites options to overcome inability to act. So the demilich screams in terror when unable to attack, causing necrotic damage to creatures nearby. Or if they couldn't act due to condition Y, condition Y gets reduced after their turn - a stunned demilich doesn't get a real attack off, so stunned turns into dazed.

[masteraleph]

I have a soft spot for Petrified- I have a build I worked on for a long time with it, though sadly have never gotten to play.

I also strongly dislike Weakened against PCs. It makes fights long and drawn out. It's not precisely Weakened, but Wraiths generally have a built in feature like that (1/2 damage, sometimes with a mitigating factor if hit by radiant), and I have bad memories of 10 round long fights vs. Wraiths because of that. Of course, vs. enemies, it's a lot of fun.

[Yakk]

They are insubstantial, which means 1/2 damage.

But all insubstantial foes have 25% less HP, so they are only 50% harder to kill; if you invalidate their insubstantial, they are 25% easier to kill.

[Kurald Galain]

Note that 4E has quite a lot of "soft dominate" effects, i.e. you force the target to do so-and-so but he also gets his own actions, and it's still described as mind control. That's basically the developers admitting that the dominate condition as written isn't working.

The main issue with dom/stun is that combat takes too long in time, but too short in rounds. Being stunned for one round means the player has nothing to do for about fifteen minutes, and the character misses about one-third of the entire combat. The way to fix this, obviously, is by having rounds take less real-time minutes, and combat taking more rounds. Not the easiest task, of course

They are insubstantial, which means 1/2 damage.

But all insubstantial foes have 25% less HP, so they are only 50% harder to kill; if you invalidate their insubstantial, they are 25% easier to kill.

Yes, but they also weaken you on a hit AND they regenerate. Plus most parties have no way of invalidating their insubstantiality anyway. That adds up to, what, being 300% harder to kill? If you want to talk about poorly designed monsters they are right up there along with Needlefangs and elven archers.

[masteraleph]

They are insubstantial, which means 1/2 damage.

But all insubstantial foes have 25% less HP, so they are only 50% harder to kill; if you invalidate their insubstantial, they are 25% easier to kill.

IIRC the really annoying ones were Vortex Wraiths- Level 9 Soldiers, so they have +2 to AC (25 at level 9), do NOT have cut down HP (97), don't have a way to strip the insubstantial, have regeneration unless they get hit with radiant, and their attacks either Slow (at will) or Immobilize (encounter). So they extended the combat substantially in multiple ways, and the status effects were also really annoying by the time you got several rounds in.

[Yakk]

... and a DM that puts your party up against an entire force of soldiers. Soldiers are supposed to be the ones interfering with your strikers and defending their shallow underbelly, not the entire encounter!