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    Default Bloodstorm Blade - Thunderous Throw (Melee, Ranged or Both?) (Sneak Attack?)

    Reading through the description of Thunderous Throw in Bloodstorm Blade:
    "As a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn. You use your melee attack bonus, including Strength bonus, feats, and so forth, to determine your attack bonus for each attack as normal, but you apply the standard modifiers for range penalties. Attacking into melee, through cover, and so forth incurs the standard penalties."

    So ... is the attack ranged, melee, or both?

    I know it has range penalties, but otherwise ... is it ranged?

    So:
    Targetteer (Fighter Variant) Abilities - Arrow swarm lets you take 2 additional ranged attacks at -5 to all attacks, and Sniper allows you to sacrifice extra attacks for increases in crit range.

    Is the Bloodstorm Blade Thunderous Throw eligable for these adjustments?
    Also - for Sniper - is the adjustment before or after "keen" or "improved critical" would be applied? i.e. if you have a weapon with a threat range of 19-20. With Improved Critical or Keen, that would normally change to 17-20. If you give up 3 attacks, does it go to 14 ((19 doubled range) - 3) or 10 ((19-3) doubled range)

    Sneak Attack - "Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet"

    Is it ranged and is the sneak attack range restricted to 30'? If it is melee, can you sneak attack from beyond the 30'?


    What about the master thrower ability? Could the Sneaky Shot (sleight of hand to deny dex bonus) be used to trigger sneak attack?


    What about telling blow? If you trigger a crit against a ranged target beyond 30, does that trigger telling blow? Generally, and with the Thunderous Throw ...


    Thanks in advance,
    schreier

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    Default Re: Bloodstorm Blade - Thunderous Throw (Melee, Ranged or Both?) (Sneak Attack?)


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    Default Re: Bloodstorm Blade - Thunderous Throw (Melee, Ranged or Both?) (Sneak Attack?)

    It's a ranged attack. Only the attack roll is treated as melee.

    This means that anything that stipulates a ranged attack can be used with it. Vice versa, things that require melee attacks (Power Attack being the explicit exception) cannot.
    Last edited by heavyfuel; 2018-04-19 at 11:12 AM.

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    Default Re: Bloodstorm Blade - Thunderous Throw (Melee, Ranged or Both?) (Sneak Attack?)

    I read more into it than that - it mentions feats specifically. So can you use melee feats, ranged feats, or both?

    You wouldn't use multi shot since it is melee. What about precise shot? Lightning mace or three mountain?

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    Default Re: Bloodstorm Blade - Thunderous Throw (Melee, Ranged or Both?) (Sneak Attack?)

    Quote Originally Posted by schreier View Post
    So ... is the attack ranged, melee, or both?

    I know it has range penalties, but otherwise ... is it ranged?
    The text doesn't quite anticipate all of the rules headaches it might cause, and there's a mix of statements that appear to be either compulsory or optional, but they all start with the statement, "you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn". (emphasis added) You are required to assess penalties for range, firing into melee, and cover, but the rest appears to be up to the PC using Thunderous Throw: they can decide to add 1.5 Str bonus, they can decide to use Power Attack, etc. The gist of it seems to be, once you activate this ability, you can treat all your ranged attacks as if they were melee, and add feats or various melee abilities to those attacks as you see fit.

    The wording specifies "you", though, so for the rest of the combatants on the battlefield, they still treat them as ranged attacks (for the purposes of AoOs, ranged defenses, etc.). For defensive abilities that counter certain melee attacks (such as Power Attack)... that will probably require some off-the-cuff rulings as they come up.

    Quote Originally Posted by schreier View Post
    Targetteer (Fighter Variant) Abilities - Arrow swarm lets you take 2 additional ranged attacks at -5 to all attacks, and Sniper allows you to sacrifice extra attacks for increases in crit range.

    Is the Bloodstorm Blade Thunderous Throw eligable for these adjustments?
    Targetteer doesn't specify projectile vs. thrown weapon attacks, so both of these look legit. I don't see why they wouldn't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by schreier View Post
    Also - for Sniper - is the adjustment before or after "keen" or "improved critical" would be applied? i.e. if you have a weapon with a threat range of 19-20. With Improved Critical or Keen, that would normally change to 17-20. If you give up 3 attacks, does it go to 14 ((19 doubled range) - 3) or 10 ((19-3) doubled range)
    In general, unless the rules say otherwise, when a PC has multiple abilities/effects all happening simultaneously, they usually get to select whatever order of operations would benefit them the best, so... I think you can increase the threat range before you multiply, but I can see some DMs might demand that you follow My Dear Aunt Sally.

    Quote Originally Posted by schreier View Post
    Sneak Attack - "Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet"
    I don't see how Thunderous Throw changes this restriction. Thrown weapon attacks outside of 30' won't get sneak attack damage, even if you are treating them as melee attacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by schreier View Post
    What about the master thrower ability? Could the Sneaky Shot (sleight of hand to deny dex bonus) be used to trigger sneak attack?
    They are still thrown weapon attacks, so yes. There's no range limit on Sneaky Shot, so you could deny your target's Dex bonus at ranges beyond 30', but you'd still only get sneak attack within 30'.

    Quote Originally Posted by schreier View Post
    What about telling blow? If you trigger a crit against a ranged target beyond 30, does that trigger telling blow? Generally, and with the Thunderous Throw ...
    I can't quite make up my mind on this one. On one hand, Telling Blow doesn't have a range restriction, and it explicitly works on both melee and ranged attacks. On the other hand... if a creature isn't vulnerable to sneak attack to begin with (undead, constructs, elementals, etc.), I don't think Telling Blow should work. You also can't sneak attack creatures that have cover or concealment, and this would appear to bypass that as well. I guess it boils down to whether you think being more than 30' away makes a creature immune to sneak attack, or if Telling Blow means that sometimes you get lucky at long range and for those unfortunate targets it just sucks to be them.

    I'm inclined to say, if a creature is normally vulnerable to crits, then Telling Blow works regardless of range or cover/concealment because the feat says it does, and there's nothing in the text to suggest otherwise. If a creature is immune to crits by type (undead, construct, elemental, etc.) or via Fortification, then Telling Blow doesn't work. However, I can't really support that position with clear RAW text.

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Bloodstorm Blade - Thunderous Throw (Melee, Ranged or Both?) (Sneak Attack?)

    Quote Originally Posted by schreier View Post
    I read more into it than that - it mentions feats specifically. So can you use melee feats, ranged feats, or both?

    You wouldn't use multi shot since it is melee. What about precise shot? Lightning mace or three mountain?
    You're reading too much into it then.

    You don't use both. You use feats regarding melee attacks to determine your attack bonus and that's it.

    Only the roll changes, the attack is still a ranged attack.

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    Default Re: Bloodstorm Blade - Thunderous Throw (Melee, Ranged or Both?) (Sneak Attack?)

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyfuel View Post
    It's a ranged attack. Only the attack roll is treated as melee.

    This means that anything that stipulates a ranged attack can be used with it. Vice versa, things that require melee attacks (Power Attack being the explicit exception) cannot.
    This is correct.
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    Default Re: Bloodstorm Blade - Thunderous Throw (Melee, Ranged or Both?) (Sneak Attack?)

    With that interpretation, it seems like an almost useless ability. Especially considering that it costs a Swift action to use.

    It's basically only good for strong characters that are not dexterous and for allowing power attack

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    Default Re: Bloodstorm Blade - Thunderous Throw (Melee, Ranged or Both?) (Sneak Attack?)

    Quote Originally Posted by schreier View Post
    With that interpretation, it seems like an almost useless ability. Especially considering that it costs a Swift action to use.

    It's basically only good for strong characters that are not dexterous and for allowing power attack
    These two things are very good. This one single ability costs you your swift action to give you a feat (Brutal Throw) and a much better version of another one (Power Throw).

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