How many vamps does Durkon*/Greg/Durkula have at his disposal?

[AutomatedTeller]

I think there are at least 13 total, including him..

The one at the entrance, who got trampled by the giraffe's

The six on the ceiling, who attacked V and got hit by the chaos Hammer (in #1116, that's the 3 we see on the walls, the one in the purple tank-top walking towards the wall (we see her in #1117 attacking V), the bearded one in the back walking towards the wall and one that I don't think we see)

Then there are the 6 others we see in the big prep scene in #1116, at least three of which are spell casters (we don't see what spell the third one, with the curly hair, is casting)

Btw - what happened to the one who got trampled? It looked to me like she was right where the chaos hammer would have come down, but she's not part of that. I doubt that the giraffe's could have hurt her enough to make her gas out.

[Fyraltari]

It is worth noting that per Greg's orders, those who did not jump V are all spellcasters.

Unless he gave them specific orders just before the scrying began but I can't guess which.

[The Aboleth]

Related, I wonder how many of the vampires are Greg's thralls and how many are free-willed vampires that are choosing to follow Greg's/Hel's plan of their own volition?

When Greg was a thrall under Malack, he seemed very child-like and unable to do things on his own (or at least, not without Malack's explicit approval). The Exarch and Poncho-vamp, meanwhile, do not act very child-like and seem (at least in Poncho-vamp's case) to have other motivations beyond serving Greg/Hel.

Of course, Greg might have been acting child-like as a thrall in order to catch Malack off-guard later on, but...this seems unlikely to me. If a thrall acting child-like was unusual, I'd think Malack would know this and act accordingly. That he treats Greg-thrall's behavior as normal seems to me that is how thralls are supposed to act until they are released by their masters.

So, are ALL the vampires with Greg thralls? Are they all free-willed vamps who decided "Why not? We'll go along with this plan, sure" when they were released from thralldom? Or is it perhaps some combination in-between (a mix of child-like thralls and free-willed vamps who have chosen to go along with the plan of their own volition)?

[One Step Two]

A Quick counting from page 1019 Shows 4 teleporting out. And from pages 1102, and 1103 there's 18 unique vampires, 9 of which are destroyed (1 in 1102, and 8 more on screen in 1105)

Which means that Durkon* included, there are 12 vampires in total. The former Exarch is not in the feast hall, as he was ahead to meet with the Dwarven leaders.

Related, I wonder how many of the vampires are Greg's thralls and how many are free-willed vampires that are choosing to follow Greg's/Hel's plan of their own volition?

When Greg was a thrall under Malack, he seemed very child-like and unable to do things on his own (or at least, not without Malack's explicit approval). The Exarch and Poncho-vamp, meanwhile, do not act very child-like and seem (at least in Poncho-vamp's case) to have other motivations beyond serving Greg/Hel.

Of course, Greg might have been acting child-like as a thrall in order to catch Malack off-guard later on, but...this seems unlikely to me. If a thrall acting child-like was unusual, I'd think Malack would know this and act accordingly. That he treats Greg-thrall's behavior as normal seems to me that is how thralls are supposed to act until they are released by their masters.

So, are ALL the vampires with Greg thralls? Are they all free-willed vamps who decided "Why not? We'll go along with this plan, sure" when they were released from thralldom? Or is it perhaps some combination in-between (a mix of child-like thralls and free-willed vamps who have chosen to go along with the plan of their own volition)?

My Take is that Nergal's influence was more iron-clad and controlling because it was a foreign soul'd mortal that was turned into a Vampire, so his thralldom was more absolute. For the rest, being dwarfs, they fall under Hel's sway so they are given a little more leniency. As for Poncho, her human host's acquiescence means that less sway needs to be held on her.

[Fyraltari]

My Take is that Nergal's influence was more iron-clad and controlling because it was a foreign soul'd mortal that was turned into a Vampire, so his thralldom was more absolute. For the rest, being dwarfs, they fall under Hel's sway so they are given a little more leniency. As for Poncho, her human host's acquiescence means that less sway needs to be held on her.

Nergal has no say in this. All these vampires are (presumably since their hosts hold the Northern Godsmoot) Northeners, so Hel made* every single vampire spirit.

*More probably a servant, she does not look like the "do it yourself" kind of boss.

[One Step Two]

Nergal has no say in this. All these vampires are (presumably since their hosts hold the Northern Godsmoot) Northeners, so Hel made* every single vampire spirit.

*More probably a servant, she does not look like the "do it yourself" kind of boss.

I should have been more clear sorry: Durkon's* initial thralldom was more intense due Nergal wanting to reign in the Vampiric Spirit that was birthed from Hel herself. This is not to say Nergal was aware of any such plan on Hel's part, but simply the fact that they wanted to ensure that this high level cleric didn't go running off so soon. This is just my headcanon anyway, but I hope that clarifies!

[Kish]

Vampire thralls aren't thralls to gods--they're thralls to the vampires who created them.

Vampire Durkon was Malack's thrall. How much free will he had says something about Malack--not about Nergal except, possibly, indirectly (If Nergal is a Lawful Evil god his doctrine, which his priest followed, might emphasize keeping one's slaves ground down in a way Hel's might not if she's Neutral Evil).

[The Aboleth]

Vampire thralls aren't thralls to gods--they're thralls to the vampires who created them.

Vampire Durkon was Malack's thrall. How much free will he had says something about Malack--not about Nergal except, possibly, indirectly (If Nergal is a Lawful Evil god his doctrine, which his priest followed, might emphasize keeping one's slaves ground down in a way Hel's might not if she's Neutral Evil).

So your interpretation (correct me if I'm wrong) is that a thrall has as much freedom as the master allows? So under Malack, Greg had so little freedom to act on his own that he was essentially rendered a child, but under Greg the Exarch (and others) are given more freedom to accomplish their objectives in whatever manner they see fit (but still can't outright disobey Greg in any fashion).

I think I like that interpretation, actually.

[One Step Two]

I agree the Thrall is controlled by the parent vampire, however with clerics in the midst of these particular vampires include some divine intervention (pun intended). In this case, unconscious commands through Malack to ensure the newly minted vampire was reigned in tightly.

Though the real reason is likely because the plot demanded it to help obfuscate that Durkon was no-longer in control of his own body.

[Kish]

Malack explicitly said he planned to set Vampire Durkon free later*. It seems very unlikely to me that a vampire can release thralls but how close to mindless a thrall is is both variable, and not determined by the vampire, especially since, while you couldn't prove it by this comic, vampires aren't guaranteed or even particularly likely to be clerics. Since Vampire Durkon acted like Tsukiko's wights, if all vampire thralls acted like him I'd think it was inherent in the nature of vampires--but since he seems to have numerous followers who obey the letter of his orders but otherwise have malicious free will, it looks to me like he accepts the occasional "the Exarch finds a loophole in his orders and attacks Whiskers"-level event in exchange for not having to give word-by-word orders to thralls he wants to ambush the Order when he's not around to micromanage them.

*The likelihood that he would have actually wound up postponing "the right time to do so" for the next hundred years aside.

[The Aboleth]

Malack explicitly said he planned to set Vampire Durkon free later*. It seems very unlikely to me that a vampire can release thralls but how close to mindless a thrall is is both variable, and not determined by the vampire, especially since, while you couldn't prove it by this comic, vampires aren't guaranteed or even particularly likely to be clerics. Since Vampire Durkon acted like Tsukiko's wights, if all vampire thralls acted like him I'd think it was inherent in the nature of vampires--but since he seems to have numerous followers who obey the letter of his orders but otherwise have malicious free will. It looks to me like he accepts the occasional "the Exarch finds a loophole in his orders and attacks Whiskers"-level event in exchange for not having to give word-by-word orders to thralls he wants to ambush the Order when he's not around to micromanage them.

*The likelihood that he would have actually wound up postponing "the right time to do so" for the next hundred years aside.

Can thralls have thralls of their own? I'm not well versed in 3.5 rules, but it seems like Greg had waaaaay more vampires under his control than what was normally allowed (especially in the Godsmoot), but thralls being able to have thralls might explain it.*

*Explain it in a RAW way, of course, since we know Rich doesn't always abide by RAW especially if doing so would make for a weaker narrative.

EDIT: Google is my friend:

If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD. In either case, the new vampire or spawn is under the command of the vampire that created it and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction. At any given time a vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed vampires or vampire spawn. A vampire that is enslaved may create and enslave spawn of its own, so a master vampire can control a number of lesser vampires in this fashion. A vampire may voluntarily free an enslaved spawn in order to enslave a new spawn, but once freed, a vampire or vampire spawn cannot be enslaved again.

Is this probably the most likely explanation for the number of vampires we see at the Godsmoot and in Firmament? Or did Durkon have a ton of hit dice?

[One Step Two]

Actually, your mention of Tsukiko raises an excellent point.

She used her dark arcane arts to give rise to the dead, and they followed her in the manner she chose: Creepy dolls which loved her and acted somewhat childish, but still subservient. The moment Redcloak bent them to his will, they became cold and detached.

All the vampires we've seen so far Vampires are a "natural occurring" version of the same effect.

If you will allow me to pontificate about Malack's mindset for a moment: Durkon* was risen as a dutiful child, which was to Malack the last representation of what a spawn meant to him. Evidence to support this was his deference to his master (parent), and when it came time to summon creatures, he offered his help immediately. Malack even acted as a parent to his thrall when Durkon* put his toe into sunlight. Malack's ultimate hope was that freeing Durkon* from thralldom would change it from being a Parent/Child relationship to that of Siblings.

There's a lot of things to unpack about Durkon* and his relationship to his spawn, but I think the biggest factor to him would be the execution of Hel's plan, and it's expediency. And as you said, loopholes and a little autonomy is fine, but as long as they are focused on the big goal, and actively working towards it, their reigns don't need to be under his firm control at all times. Evidence to this was when he ordered Gone-tor to go ahead of him, but the newly vamp'd Exarch wanted to remain with his master, but Durkon* put his foot down to keep the plan going. Acting on his own impulse was fine up until the point where it was a detriment to the plan.

[RatElemental]

I wouldn't be surprised if all the clerics are freed and follow the plan because they are now clerics of Hel. But the Ex-arch called Greg master once, so I'm not so sure on that.

[Fyraltari]

I wouldn't be surprised if all the clerics are freed and follow the plan because they are now clerics of Hel. But the Ex-arch called Greg master once, so I'm not so sure on that.

Well, calling the boss "master" seems like a typical Lawful Evil thing to do regardless of supernatural enslavement.

[TRH]

I can imagine it's possible that all the vampires are thralls or that some (most likely Ponchula, given her attitude) are free-willed, but still going along with it because they're still clerics of Hel. It wouldn't matter unless Greg got killed, and one or more of the newly freed vampires decided they didn't want to die for this and fled. And that seems unlikely, to say the least.

[PopeLinus1]

Well, calling the boss "master" seems like a typical Lawful Evil thing to do regardless of supernatural enslavement.

True... but on the other hand he’s shown himself to be... well remember that time when he chewed out ponchula for daring to question their master? I personally think he’s a thrall.

[D.One]

True... but on the other hand he’s shown himself to be... well remember that time when he chewed out ponchula for daring to question their master? I personally think he’s a thrall.

I'm not quite sure if he's a thrall to Durkon or if, being the opposite of his rebelious host, he's a dedicated servant and a perfect follower.

[Fyraltari]

True... but on the other hand he’s shown himself to be... well remember that time when he chewed out ponchula for daring to question their master? I personally think he’s a thrall.

He also purposefully disobeyed direct orders because he could think of a technicality that allowed him to. And it'd be pretty strange tohave your second-in-command under thralldom but not your other followers. Pretty sure he is just a bootlicker.

[D.One]

I believe an appropriate answer for the thread title is

"less every round"

[TRH]

I believe an appropriate answer for the thread title is

"less every round"

That would be "fewer every round," actually.

[D.One]

That would be "fewer every round," actually.

Ops, sorry, Vampires are a countable thing (unless they change to mist)

[AutomatedTeller]

Quite true!

[Fyraltari]

Ops, sorry, Vampires are a countable thing (unless they change to mist)

I am not sure. Letme try:
One vampire.
Two vampires.
One vampire.
Two vampires.
Three vampires.
Thirteen vampires.
Six vampires.
Five vampires.
Twenty-one vampires.
Twenty-two vampires.
More than nine vampires.
Fifteen vampires.
Sixteen vampires.
Thirteen/Fourteen vampires.

Therefore wecan conclude that vampires are countable but it's bloody hard.

Spoiler

Show

[hroþila]

That would be "fewer every round," actually.

"Less" has been used continuously with countable nouns for the whole history of the English language. Swa mid læs worda swa mid ma. Som tyme mo ȝeres & som tyme lees.

It's fine. At least in informal contexts, even if the pedants have managed to make it not fine in formal ones.

[AutomatedTeller]

The order has killed 3 (the one who got trampled by giraffes/attacked by Roy/killed by Belkar),
one who attacked V, got slowed, got healed/hurt by Durkula/Elan and got his heart aired out by Belkar, and one that got killed by Hilgya empowered flame strike.

that leaves 5 spawn (who should be attacking Elan now, which does not bode well for him) and 5 spell using vamps (all of whom got hit by the flamestrike, I think)

[Crusher]

that leaves 5 spawn (who should be attacking Elan now, which does not bode well for him)

On the one hand, yes. Elan's a pretty squishy target with an ability to escape that largely depends on what the plot demands (sometimes he can tumble his way across a battlefield unscathed, and sometimes he's a pinata).

On the other hand, the melee thralls may be mostly healed (assuming they weren't caught in the Flame Strike), but they're probably mostly still slowed which is significantly debilitating.

[D.One]

On the one hand, yes. Elan's a pretty squishy target with an ability to escape that largely depends on what the plot demands (sometimes he can tumble his way across a battlefield unscathed, and sometimes he's a pinata).

On the other hand, the melee thralls may be mostly healed (assuming they weren't caught in the Flame Strike), but they're probably mostly still slowed which is significantly debilitating.

V hasn't attacked yet this round, and I expect such attack to litterally dust some vamp.

[dtilque]

A Quick counting from page 1019 Shows 4 teleporting out. And from pages 1102, and 1103 there's 18 unique vampires, 9 of which are destroyed (1 in 1102, and 8 more on screen in 1105)

Which means that Durkon* included, there are 12 vampires in total. The former Exarch is not in the feast hall, as he was ahead to meet with the Dwarven leaders.

The OP was right; the current battle started with (at least) 13 vampires. That counts Durkula but doesn't count Gontula, who as you say, is not in the room. Panel 3 of 1116 is a panoramic scene of the hall showing 11 vampires, including Durkula. However, there are two that aren't shown in that panel. One is listening at the door and is shown in panel 2. The other is climbing a wall out of view.

In panel 3 there, we see three climbing the walls and two moving towards the walls, but when the wall hangers attack V in strip 1117, there are six that drop from the walls. That sixth one is the female with brown hair. One male from that group, the one with a hat and a full head of hair, doesn't show in strip 1118 in the group in front of Elan and Haley. It's most likely that Roy and he are engaging in battle off the right side of the panels.

Of course, there may be others that haven't been shown yet. There could have been more off to the right of that panel 3, for example. Burlew does this kind of thing from time to time for misdirection.

[Jannoire]

That counts Durkula but doesn't count Gontula, who as you say, is not in the room.

Don't forget No-Name-ula, who got sent along with Gone-tor.