Spheres of Power: Archetypes of Power Open Beta

[A.J.Gibson]

With 2e approaching, we're trying to wrap up the ongoing SoP projects, so my original hope for multiple small releases of new archetypes has been replaced with a single, large book, here.

Archetypes of Power is a collection of archetypes to help give more SoP support for those Paizo classes that didn't get a lot of support during the run of handbooks, like the Shaman, Bard, and Psychic. I'll be adding more stuff over time (the book is only two thirds full). I'll admit up front that this project has been a bit rushed, so comments and suggestions are very welcome.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

It’s disappointing to hear that Spheres won’t be getting any more support and the remaining handbooks/projects will be rushed from here on, but it’s understandable

[Manyasone]

Understandable? How so? 2e PF so far hasn't proven anything at all. Why should DDS jump on the bandwagon or DSP or anyone for that matter. Paizo has been rather disappointing as of late in comparison with some 3PP. I really don't see a reason for rushing anything especially Spheres material

[khadgar567]

Understandable? How so? 2e PF so far hasn't proven anything at all. Why should DDS jump on the bandwagon or DSP or anyone for that matter. Paizo has been rather disappointing as of late in comparison with some 3PP. I really don't see a reason for rushing anything especially Spheres material

they are not rushing but readying to eventual new content need as this mondays post we know how the spells gonna be in the setting and how powerful they are thus spheres system gona need to update to keep the status quo similar. while dream scared press dont need asap content update since they own the psionics, path of war and akashic stuff they also need to update eventualy to keep going.

[Manyasone]

Pathfinder was created for/by people who preferred 3.5 over 4th or 5th. I don't think 'need' applies here.

[Archiplex]

I notice there are a few classes missing that currently don't have any existing SoP Archetypes, though you've stated the book is only partially done. Will we be seeing any true archetypes for Paladin, Skald, and Inquisitor? I've seen there's already work on classes that have pre-existing archetypes (Not saying it's bad! I personally love almost all of these so far), but I was hoping that support for some poorly-done conversions would finally come.

In the specific case of Paladin, if you're planning to make an archetype for it at all (please!), would you be sticking to the current conversion's "Lowcaster -3" formula, or would you move more towards Geosurveyor and Folk Healer, which are both lowcasting archetypes for Ranger that ignore the '-3 caster level' idea.

I personally feel like the latter is preferred, as casting, in general, is so different from Paizo casters that an additional -3CL stuck onto low casters sort of neuters any potential they have for many spheres. A 9th level caster having a CL of 3 is brutal!

[EldritchWeaver]

I notice there are a few classes missing that currently don't have any existing SoP Archetypes, though you've stated the book is only partially done. Will we be seeing any true archetypes for Paladin, Skald, and Inquisitor? I've seen there's already work on classes that have pre-existing archetypes (Not saying it's bad! I personally love almost all of these so far), but I was hoping that support for some poorly-done conversions would finally come.

In the specific case of Paladin, if you're planning to make an archetype for it at all (please!), would you be sticking to the current conversion's "Lowcaster -3" formula, or would you move more towards Geosurveyor and Folk Healer, which are both lowcasting archetypes for Ranger that ignore the '-3 caster level' idea.

I personally feel like the latter is preferred, as casting, in general, is so different from Paizo casters that an additional -3CL stuck onto low casters sort of neuters any potential they have for many spheres. A 9th level caster having a CL of 3 is brutal!

IIRC, AJ Gibson is of the believe that the -3 to CL should be removed in general.

[A.J.Gibson]

It’s disappointing to hear that Spheres won’t be getting any more support and the remaining handbooks/projects will be rushed from here on, but it’s understandable

Keep in mind that DDS tends to take it's time. War was in playtest for about 8 months and was in pre-editing for about 3 months! Even layout takes a month or so. All this means is that we're being a little more aggressive, and maybe not putting so much on the upcoming schedule.

I notice there are a few classes missing that currently don't have any existing SoP Archetypes, though you've stated the book is only partially done. Will we be seeing any true archetypes for Paladin, Skald, and Inquisitor? I've seen there's already work on classes that have pre-existing archetypes (Not saying it's bad! I personally love almost all of these so far), but I was hoping that support for some poorly-done conversions would finally come.

In the specific case of Paladin, if you're planning to make an archetype for it at all (please!), would you be sticking to the current conversion's "Lowcaster -3" formula, or would you move more towards Geosurveyor and Folk Healer, which are both lowcasting archetypes for Ranger that ignore the '-3 caster level' idea.

I personally feel like the latter is preferred, as casting, in general, is so different from Paizo casters that an additional -3CL stuck onto low casters sort of neuters any potential they have for many spheres. A 9th level caster having a CL of 3 is brutal!

I'm hoping to give support to more of the paizo classes (wouldn't mind hitting a few non-paizo if I had more time), if I can come up with some decent ideas for them beyond a simple sphere conversion.

If people have suggestions for other archetypes, this would be a good place for them. Just remember this is an SoP book.

I don't like the -3 tacked onto paladins and rangers; it's unnecessary with low-casting already penalizing them.

An inquisitor archetype was written for AoP, and it got moved to the Protection book. There is also an Inquisitor in the Fate book, so I think that class is okay. What's wrong with sphere skald?

[Archiplex]

Keep in mind that DDS tends to take it's time. War was in playtest for about 8 months and was in pre-editing for about 3 months! Even layout takes a month or so. All this means is that we're being a little more aggressive, and maybe not putting so much on the upcoming schedule.



I'm hoping to give support to more of the paizo classes (wouldn't mind hitting a few non-paizo if I had more time), if I can come up with some decent ideas for them beyond a simple sphere conversion.

If people have suggestions for other archetypes, this would be a good place for them. Just remember this is an SoP book.

I don't like the -3 tacked onto paladins and rangers; it's unnecessary with low-casting already penalizing them.

An inquisitor archetype was written for AoP, and it got moved to the Protection book. There is also an Inquisitor in the Fate book, so I think that class is okay. What's wrong with sphere skald?

Ah, I haven't fully checked over the playtests so I wasn't aware there's already some Inquisitor archetypes- that's perfect, then! I think Sphere Skald is in an alright space mechanically, I was just thinking more could be done to expand on the topic (I.E mass-applying mind-sphere effects with use of performance as a class ability to those affected by their song, rather than rage necessarily. Perhaps some eliciter crossovers as well.) I do think in general it's a class that doesn't get too much love (Even by paizo), though understandably that's since it's already a rather specific class and hard to expand on.

I feel like the most obvious thing that can be applied to a Paladin is some sort of Life-focused paladin (or Death for antipaladin? A little tougher since there's no death handbook yet though, meaningn less tools to play with.) It could be as simple and weak as some easily crossed-over features, i.e a class feature that allows Lay on Hands to activate as if it were a Life sphere effect, and thus apply Vitality (Technically achieveable through Healing Touch, though that has extra costs and generally different mechanics.) Ultimately, though, I just feel like presenting any option that doesn't have the -3 caster level penalty is important for Paladins.

[digiman619]

Are there any classes who aren't going to get archetypes that you can rule out? I recall hearing that Kinetisists can't be done without turning them into Elementalists (maybe they accept burn to do metamagic?).

[AlienFromBeyond]

I don't think Kineticists really need a SoP archetype, it's not like they use regular casting to be replaced by SoP, they already have their own subsystem with their whole wild talents mechanics.

[ChrisAsmadi]

Are Occultists getting one, ideally with sphere implements? Or is that in one of the other books?

[digiman619]

I don't think Kineticists really need a SoP archetype, it's not like they use regular casting to be replaced by SoP, they already have their own subsystem with their whole wild talents mechanics.

Yeah, but they're really bad and complicated. They have poor damage compared to archers (who *aren't* also dealing Constitution damage to themselves every time they fire their weapon) and are overly complicated (seriously; the write-up for the kenny is 19 pages long! You could fit the all the needed rules to play a Draining Casting Elementalist in half that!).

EDIT: Using the prd, I determined that the Kenny, in its debut alone and not counting Favored Class Bonuses or archetypes, just the base write up was 16,169 words. In comparison, using the base only version on pfsrd, the base write-up of how SoP works, the Elementalist class, how casting traditions work (including all the boons and drawbacks) and the entire base Creation, Destruction and Nature spheres in 12,533.

Just in case you wanted a comparison.

[A.J.Gibson]

Ah, I haven't fully checked over the playtests so I wasn't aware there's already some Inquisitor archetypes- that's perfect, then! I think Sphere Skald is in an alright space mechanically, I was just thinking more could be done to expand on the topic (I.E mass-applying mind-sphere effects with use of performance as a class ability to those affected by their song, rather than rage necessarily. Perhaps some eliciter crossovers as well.) I do think in general it's a class that doesn't get too much love (Even by paizo), though understandably that's since it's already a rather specific class and hard to expand on.

I feel like the most obvious thing that can be applied to a Paladin is some sort of Life-focused paladin (or Death for antipaladin? A little tougher since there's no death handbook yet though, meaningn less tools to play with.) It could be as simple and weak as some easily crossed-over features, i.e a class feature that allows Lay on Hands to activate as if it were a Life sphere effect, and thus apply Vitality (Technically achieveable through Healing Touch, though that has extra costs and generally different mechanics.) Ultimately, though, I just feel like presenting any option that doesn't have the -3 caster level penalty is important for Paladins.

I don't think the best thing for the skald is to bolt on some other classes unique class features. My only real personal complain with the sphere skald is that it doesn't grant full CL with anything, otherwise it's perfectly fine.

As for the paladin, I believe there is one in the fate handbook. I wouldn't mind doing one as well, but I wouldn't want to rip out lay on hands and replace it with Life casting. When a class has a unique mechanic, it's not a good idea to replace it with something any class could get, that just homogenizes the classes. I did have one idea for the paladin when I wrote Life, but it ended up getting cut down into feats (the Anathema feats).

Are there any classes who aren't going to get archetypes that you can rule out? I recall hearing that Kinetisists can't be done without turning them into Elementalists (maybe they accept burn to do metamagic?).

I generally want to stick with paizo casting classes. I did vigilante because it already has several paizo archetypes that gives it casting. I'm not touching the kineticist, and I generally want to avoid the summoner as well (it's a headache).

Are Occultists getting one, ideally with sphere implements? Or is that in one of the other books?

The Cryptomancer in the Protection book is an (unpopular) occultist archetype that changes the implement's focus powers and changes some of the occultists circle powers, but doesn't implement sphere implements. I don't expect there to be a sphere implement version; a few people have tried and the results are pretty terrible.

[AlienFromBeyond]

Yeah, but they're really bad and complicated.

They're really not that complicated in practice, and yes with only 1pp they are bad but with 3pp material (namely the Legendary Kineticist books from Legendary Games and the Kineticists of Porphyra from Purple Duck Games) they can be quite effective. I don't think DDS needs to spend time fixing something that has already been fixed and is kind of orthogonal to the work they've already done.

As for the paladin, I believe there is one in the fate handbook.

There's one in the Time handbook as well.

The Cryptomancer in the Protection book is an (unpopular) occultist archetype

Whaaat, I think it's great!

As for comments more directly related to the document, I really love the Witch archetype, it feels like what a negative energy channeling Soul Weaver with blights was supposed to be.

[Kaouse]

I personally have really been hoping for some type of "Squad Leader" Archetype for the Inquisitor for a long time now.

Get rid of spells to give them Blended training, with a talent at every level.
Get rid of Judgement to give them the War Sphere @ Full CL with the "Squadron Elite" drawback. .
Get rid of Solo Tactics, instead grant them the Warleader Sphere, as well as Combat Sphere Specialization for said sphere.
Replace every instance of Teamwork Feats with Squadron Feats.

If you wanted to avoid the empty levels caused by Judgement increases (Double @ 8, Triple @ 15, Slayer @ 17), you could give the Inquisitor access to some of the Commander's "Enhanced Tactics," similar to how the Sanctified Slayer gets access to Slayer Talents. Of course, you might be stepping on the Commander's toes at that point (just like the Sanctified Slayer steps on the Slayers toes, or the Sacred Huntsmaster steps on the Hunter's toes).

Is there any chance of such an archetype being made?

[Dr_Dinosaur]

I don't think the best thing for the skald is to bolt on some other classes unique class features. My only real personal complain with the sphere skald is that it doesn't grant full CL with anything, otherwise it's perfectly fine.

As for the paladin, I believe there is one in the fate handbook. I wouldn't mind doing one as well, but I wouldn't want to rip out lay on hands and replace it with Life casting. When a class has a unique mechanic, it's not a good idea to replace it with something any class could get, that just homogenizes the classes. I did have one idea for the paladin when I wrote Life, but it ended up getting cut down into feats (the Anathema feats).



I generally want to stick with paizo casting classes. I did vigilante because it already has several paizo archetypes that gives it casting. I'm not touching the kineticist, and I generally want to avoid the summoner as well (it's a headache).



The Cryptomancer in the Protection book is an (unpopular) occultist archetype that changes the implement's focus powers and changes some of the occultists circle powers, but doesn't implement sphere implements. I don't expect there to be a sphere implement version; a few people have tried and the results are pretty terrible.

I just want a better Sphere Summoner tbh. Nothing fancy, just not ripping out their unique mechanic (evolution points) in favor of something Incanter does better

[A.J.Gibson]

Whaaat, I think it's great!

As for comments more directly related to the document, I really love the Witch archetype, it feels like what a negative energy channeling Soul Weaver with blights was supposed to be.

Thanks, I'm glad someone liked it. The witch too - I really wanted to make a witch so people would have a reason to take the class, and I basically had to invent an entire new class almost.

I personally have really been hoping for some type of "Squad Leader" Archetype for the Inquisitor for a long time now.

Get rid of spells to give them Blended training, with a talent at every level.
Get rid of Judgement to give them the War Sphere @ Full CL with the "Squadron Elite" drawback. .
Get rid of Solo Tactics, instead grant them the Warleader Sphere, as well as Combat Sphere Specialization for said sphere.
Replace every instance of Teamwork Feats with Squadron Feats.

If you wanted to avoid the empty levels caused by Judgement increases (Double @ 8, Triple @ 15, Slayer @ 17), you could give the Inquisitor access to some of the Commander's "Enhanced Tactics," similar to how the Sanctified Slayer gets access to Slayer Talents. Of course, you might be stepping on the Commander's toes at that point (just like the Sanctified Slayer steps on the Slayers toes, or the Sacred Huntsmaster steps on the Hunter's toes).

Is there any chance of such an archetype being made?

It's not out of the question, though I don't know if I would do it that way. If you remove judgement and teamwork feats from the inquisitor, you leave very little that's unique to the inquisitor (tracking, domains, bane, stalwart, monster lore). For such large class features, you're better off starting with the essential features and then figuring out the chassis. From your description, this sounds like a Commander archetype, with squadron feats available to it the way the War Hero does for the fighter with totems. Alternatively, take a caster with War sphere and then take a martial tradition.

I just want a better Sphere Summoner tbh. Nothing fancy, just not ripping out their unique mechanic (evolution points) in favor of something Incanter does better

Sorry, but the summoner makes my eyes bleed :)

[Mithril Leaf]

So it's an interesting interaction of the Withering Witch is that Contagion can pass along certain buffs (first the comes to mind is Lenses) between your allies for free. It's pretty neat, but may well be unintended.

[A.J.Gibson]

So it's an interesting interaction of the Withering Witch is that Contagion can pass along certain buffs (first the comes to mind is Lenses) between your allies for free. It's pretty neat, but may well be unintended.

Hmmm...yeah, unintended, but obvious in retrospect. Unfortunately, there is no easy way to say 'you can only have abilities that screw up people's lives work with contagion'.

In unrelated question, how do people feel about the sphere oracle and sphere sorcerer? Do we need alternatives? Any idea what I should do with the arcanist?

[Psyren]

IIRC, AJ Gibson is of the believe that the -3 to CL should be removed in general.

It can be removed with no issues (Bloodrager proved that, if it needed proving), so I would say it should just be stripped across the board, regardless of (sub)system.

Are there any classes who aren't going to get archetypes that you can rule out? I recall hearing that Kinetisists can't be done without turning them into Elementalists (maybe they accept burn to do metamagic?).

It'd be a lot simpler imo to just graft a Burn-style mechanic onto an Elementalist chassis (e.g. as a tradition/drawback) than to try and rebuild Kinny from scratch. Moreover, with P2 on the horizon I doubt Kineticist will be getting much more in the way of official support anyhow.

With P2 featuring 5e-style scaling cantrips though, my hope is that the appetite for an "at-will caster" whose abilities could actually be level-appropriate will grow.

[Kaouse]

It's not out of the question, though I don't know if I would do it that way. If you remove judgement and teamwork feats from the inquisitor, you leave very little that's unique to the inquisitor (tracking, domains, bane, stalwart, monster lore). For such large class features, you're better off starting with the essential features and then figuring out the chassis. From your description, this sounds like a Commander archetype, with squadron feats available to it the way the War Hero does for the fighter with totems. Alternatively, take a caster with War sphere and then take a martial tradition.

I thought that removing Judgement would be the most balanced option, but alternatively I guess we could give them Blended Training with talents every other level instead, like the Martial Mageknight and Armorist. Considering the fact that they're also getting two free Spheres at max effectiveness (i.e. War and Warleader), I think it should still work out.

As for the trading of Teamwork Feats for Squadron Feats, that was actually the main reason why I wanted to make this archetype. Rather than using Solo Tactics in order to use teamwork feats by themselves, Squadron Commander lets them use their Squadron feats to help out their team.

The idea of this "Divine Marshal" archetype is to make the Inquisitor more of a "team player" and less of a "Solo Star." I think it would be a great addition to the Inquistor class, and to Spheres as a whole.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Hmmm...yeah, unintended, but obvious in retrospect. Unfortunately, there is no easy way to say 'you can only have abilities that screw up people's lives work with contagion'.

In unrelated question, how do people feel about the sphere oracle and sphere sorcerer? Do we need alternatives? Any idea what I should do with the arcanist?

I like the bonus spell point features, but honestly beyond that I’m not sure what else you could do for them beyond the option to replace all the garbage “1d6 plus 1 per CL of X damage 3/day” powers or something

It'd be a lot simpler imo to just graft a Burn-style mechanic onto an Elementalist chassis (e.g. as a tradition/drawback) than to try and rebuild Kinny from scratch. Moreover, with P2 on the horizon I doubt Kineticist will be getting much more in the way of official support anyhow.

This is disappointing, considering Kineticist actually has some interesting archetypes that don’t cleanly translate to the Elementalist

[A.J.Gibson]

I thought that removing Judgement would be the most balanced option, but alternatively I guess we could give them Blended Training with talents every other level instead, like the Martial Mageknight and Armorist. Considering the fact that they're also getting two free Spheres at max effectiveness (i.e. War and Warleader), I think it should still work out.

As for the trading of Teamwork Feats for Squadron Feats, that was actually the main reason why I wanted to make this archetype. Rather than using Solo Tactics in order to use teamwork feats by themselves, Squadron Commander lets them use their Squadron feats to help out their team.

The idea of this "Divine Marshal" archetype is to make the Inquisitor more of a "team player" and less of a "Solo Star." I think it would be a great addition to the Inquistor class, and to Spheres as a whole.

Let's figure out what powers we want to give the inquisitor. War sphere with Squadron Commander/Squadron Elite and Full CL. If we want Warleader, we need an SoM conversion, and Warleader sphere at first level. Now there has to be something that makes the archetype worth having. Some sort of ability that lets you use Warleader with War would be appropriate, like saying all squad members are in range of shouts in tactics, or making some totems into Warleader tactics. But those could just be feats made available to everyone (and someone will demand they are). What's really needed is a unique mechanic that can't be easily broken down into feats. Something similar to judgments, like judgments that affect everyone in your squadron.

[Ironsides]

If people have suggestions for other archetypes, this would be a good place for them. Just remember this is an SoP book.

I have some ideas for stuff.
General Drawback
Magical Signs
Your magic is accompanied by a tell-tale sign; for example, your body glows brightly, the sound of tortured souls shriek as you cast, feelings of a deep chill affect all creatures within 30 ft. All nearby creatures know when you are using magic, as well as the nature of the magic used. If taken a second time, all creatures within Close range (minimum of 60 ft) range notice your signs.

Maybe this would be better with a minimum 40 ft range? I just like the idea that the more powerful you are the more flashy your magic is.

Alteration Drawback
Semi-malleable Form
You can add traits to your blank form from talents but you cannot change your base form.

This is just the reverse of the Beast Soul drawback.

Shifter Archetype
Master of Disguise

Class Skills: The master of disguise loses Handle Animal, Knowledge (geography), and Survival as class skills and gains Bluff, Diplomacy and Knowledge (local) as class skills.
Pretender: At 1st level the master of disguise gains the Alteration sphere and Perfect Imitation talent as bonus magic talents. The master of disguise uses her class level as her caster level for the Alteration sphere. This stacks normally with caster levels gained from other sources. She also gains the Semi-malleable Form drawback, but no bonus talents. If the master of disguise already has the Alteration sphere from another source, she does not gain the Semi-malleable Form drawback. This modifies shapeshifter.
Casting Ability Modifier: The master of disguise uses Charisma as her casting ability modifier.
Shifting Disguise
You gain the Shifting Disguise feat.
This replaces Wild Empathy.
Impersonation: At 2nd level, the master of disguise gains access to the following unique traits which she can add to her shapeshift forms:
Parrot: You may mimic voices as the Mimicry trait from the Vocal Transformation Alteration talent.
Practised Disguise: You gain a bonus equal to 1/2 your master of disguise level to all Disguise checks.
Mimicry: You gain the Mimicry bestial trait.
This replaces Endurance.

[AlienFromBeyond]

It'd be a lot simpler imo to just graft a Burn-style mechanic onto an Elementalist chassis (e.g. as a tradition/drawback)

But Draining Casting drawback is already a thing?

Hmmm...yeah, unintended, but obvious in retrospect. Unfortunately, there is no easy way to say 'you can only have abilities that screw up people's lives work with contagion'.

It's also spending a resource that is more limited than spell points, so that might be okay. If it's a concern you could add "and targets an enemy" to "The withering witch may corrupt a sphere ability or hex that requires a melee touch attack" or some such.

In unrelated question, how do people feel about the sphere oracle and sphere sorcerer? Do we need alternatives? Any idea what I should do with the arcanist?

The main issue with Sphere Sorcerer is that it's such a good dip. One level as a high-caster with an extra spell point for the level, a bonus talent, bloodline Arcana that can be something really strong like Orc for blasting, and +1 caster level that can be stacked with Incanter specialization. I would say some way of tying in the bloodline harder and making it rewarding to stay in the class than just "more spell points" would be needed for a replacement archetype. Maybe something with metamagic, like preventing the cast time increase but not affecting the cost much as they have so much SP to throw around?

Sphere Oracle is mostly fine I think, it still gets the curse/mystery/revelations which are core to the class's identity. How much you like it depends on how much you like the regular Oracle.

I got nothing for Arcanist though, sorry. It feels like it didn't make the transition into SoP well but no idea how you address that.

[Psyren]

But Draining Casting drawback is already a thing?

Right, that's what I was referring to, so my question stands - why not just be an Elementalist with Draining Casting and call it a "Sphere Kineticist?"

[Scowling Dragon]

Please make a better wandslinger. Thats such a cool archetype idea but the execution is so mediocre sadly.

[Kaouse]

Let's figure out what powers we want to give the inquisitor. War sphere with Squadron Commander/Squadron Elite and Full CL. If we want Warleader, we need an SoM conversion, and Warleader sphere at first level. Now there has to be something that makes the archetype worth having. Some sort of ability that lets you use Warleader with War would be appropriate, like saying all squad members are in range of shouts in tactics, or making some totems into Warleader tactics. But those could just be feats made available to everyone (and someone will demand they are). What's really needed is a unique mechanic that can't be easily broken down into feats. Something similar to judgments, like judgments that affect everyone in your squadron.

I like the idea of sharing Judgements with team members. Maybe at half effectiveness to keep it balanced, and without overstepping the mandate feat that allows the Inquisitor to do something similar (only with one member at a time). It might even be a good idea to let the Inquisitor share Bane with their teammates (maybe with the downside of having to spend a Bane use for each and every person they wish to affect).

[Tariyan Draegr]

The only archetype I can think of is to convert occultist to spheres but looking at the psionic Occultist, I'm sure that'll take about all the available page space.