Spheres of Power: Archetypes of Power Open Beta

[Mehangel]

A sphere oracle archetype with buffing or debuffing auras instead of revelations would be kind of interesting.

[Scowling Dragon]

A few people have said this about the ranger's pet as well. If I did this, it would simply be a divine bond option instead of an archetype.

Fine by me.

[Arcueid]

An SoM inquisitor is doable, if some can suggest a unique mechanic for them that is specific to the inquisitor (maybe something to do with judgments). I've also been thinking about a mechanic where a class gets bonuses in proportion to how many hit points of damage they've taken. They could trade out teamwork feats to get a talent per level with blended training, or to get proficient training separately (do people have a preference for blended training or separate progressions?).

The main thing with SoM archetypes it seems you have to trade something out to get the SoM talent progression, unless we take the champion approach, hard to say there.
I feel some scout sphere would be an interesting synergy considering they have spontaneous bane so much of the class is around identifying things to better destroy them. Monster lore kinda fits into this as well.
Not sure what we could do with Judgments because they're not exactly "exciting" features, they're nice X times per day buffs, but its hard to say what you could do with them without just making the feature way stronger than it was originally meant to be.
Solo tactics(along with their bonus teamwork feats) might be available for some synergy with war/warleader spheres. Maybe even just trading this class feature out for a progression, do it like a couple of the non-champion ones where they have two separate progressions for SoM talents and SoP talents.
Then there's also all those swift action litany spells that they'd lose in place of gaining SoP talents. Its one of those things core to how they play, but easy to overlook because its hidden in their spell list and not an explicit class feature.

Its kind of the problem with inquisitor, they have a lot of neat class features, but no real core focus in terms that some classes have a clear type of weapon/playstyle setup they'd excel best with (like rogues with finesse weapons, and barbarians with big 2h weapons) while inquisitor doesn't seem to, so it makes them an interesting blank slate that would mesh well with SoM, but it makes it difficult to really merge any class features with a theme.

[kkplx]

Understandable? How so? 2e PF so far hasn't proven anything at all. Why should DDS jump on the bandwagon or DSP or anyone for that matter. Paizo has been rather disappointing as of late in comparison with some 3PP. I really don't see a reason for rushing anything especially Spheres material

Just dropping in to echo that sentiment.

[exelsisxax]

Just dropping in to echo that sentiment.

It's a nice idea, but the reality is that the release of PF2 will herald the downturn and eventual death of PF1 as a market. Paizo has already put too much into PF2, if it fails the company is likely to collapse, and players will slowly migrate to supported games instead of getting 1/3pp content. If it is a hit, then there will be a much quicker migration from PF1 to PF2, creating a profitable market that 3pp developers have every economic reason to provide for.

A business needs to make money to survive, PF2 is going to be part of that reality one way or another.

[Scowling Dragon]

A business needs to make money to survive, PF2 is going to be part of that reality one way or another.

This is where my general distaste towards Paizo tends into general revulsion. They can afford to be lazy and half-baked because they have the ego and insulation.

[A.J.Gibson]

Then how about a more martial Based Sphere for the Medium? One that uses the SOM abilities?

The medium is such a mess, I'd rather spend my time writing archetypes for classes I understand :)

I must have been out of it yesterday for these posts to be so unclear.
I was suggesting a way to marry Barroom’s ability to rapidly drink alcohol with the Alchemist’s potions and extracts. Chugging mutagen/extract, adding alcohol to dilute a potion to make more at the cost of getting allies drunk, that sort of thing.

There might be a discovery in there somewhere?

Maybe something akin to the 3.5 Marshal or that one weird dragon marshal (Dragonfire Disciple?) would be cool. Pathfinder has a dearth of good aura classes. Even something like sharing some of your revelations or curses with the party. That would be both radically cool and super unique. Half BAB would be fitting in that case.

I kinda covered the aura thing with the War handbook. A bunch of talents, 3 archetypes dedicated to auras (Warmonger, War Hero, and Divine Heretic), feats...

A sphere oracle archetype with buffing or debuffing auras instead of revelations would be kind of interesting.

I wouldn't want to give up revelations - they make the oracle unique.

The main thing with SoM archetypes it seems you have to trade something out to get the SoM talent progression, unless we take the champion approach, hard to say there.
I feel some scout sphere would be an interesting synergy considering they have spontaneous bane so much of the class is around identifying things to better destroy them. Monster lore kinda fits into this as well.
Not sure what we could do with Judgments because they're not exactly "exciting" features, they're nice X times per day buffs, but its hard to say what you could do with them without just making the feature way stronger than it was originally meant to be.
Solo tactics(along with their bonus teamwork feats) might be available for some synergy with war/warleader spheres. Maybe even just trading this class feature out for a progression, do it like a couple of the non-champion ones where they have two separate progressions for SoM talents and SoP talents.
Then there's also all those swift action litany spells that they'd lose in place of gaining SoP talents. Its one of those things core to how they play, but easy to overlook because its hidden in their spell list and not an explicit class feature.

Its kind of the problem with inquisitor, they have a lot of neat class features, but no real core focus in terms that some classes have a clear type of weapon/playstyle setup they'd excel best with (like rogues with finesse weapons, and barbarians with big 2h weapons) while inquisitor doesn't seem to, so it makes them an interesting blank slate that would mesh well with SoM, but it makes it difficult to really merge any class features with a theme.

The inquisitor is kinda like the ranger - no primary mechanic. That, and a lot of it seems to be dedicated to hunting. I already gave scout synergy to the ranger. Inquisitor needs something distinctly not ranger.

One thing I've discovered writing archetypes is that you need a reason for your idea to be an archetype. I've had 5 or 6 full archetypes get broken down into feats because there just wasn't enough for a full archetype. Granted, some archetypes in AoP are just conversion archetypes with a few powers to replace useless stuff (hello, psychomancer).

To repeat an earlier question: do people prefer blended training or separate progressions?

[Tariyan Draegr]

To repeat an earlier question: do people prefer blended training or separate progressions?

Blended training

[Arcueid]

The inquisitor is kinda like the ranger - no primary mechanic. That, and a lot of it seems to be dedicated to hunting. I already gave scout synergy to the ranger. Inquisitor needs something distinctly not ranger.

One thing I've discovered writing archetypes is that you need a reason for your idea to be an archetype. I've had 5 or 6 full archetypes get broken down into feats because there just wasn't enough for a full archetype. Granted, some archetypes in AoP are just conversion archetypes with a few powers to replace useless stuff (hello, psychomancer).

To repeat an earlier question: do people prefer blended training or separate progressions?

It is very ranger-like, except without actually gaining anything like the ranger combat styles, so generally most of your feats/resources go into supporting whatever weapon/style you chose as the class doesn't really contribute anything on that end.
I'll try to think of a theme first then, but maybe the main idea is to have some unique replacements for judgements/teamwork feats similar to the kinslayer archetype for inquisitor.

As for blended/separate this is my opinion.
1. Blended works if the class has a feature like rogue talents, armorist tricks, mystic combats, etc... where they can chose to use those for extra magic/martial talents otherwise without that classes like mageknight for example would feel woefully lacking in talents. Otherwise if the class lacks those i think a small boost to their overall talents feels necessary(kinda like how the mystic magus archetype gets 20 talents over the 15 normal sphere magus gets).
Even then we had some debate in my group if it was just better to trade feats/proficiencies to get a martial tradition and a separate pool of talents and just use the class features that grant extra combat feats to fill in the feat gaps than actually use those archetypes.
2. Having separate talents is just generally more powerful, for example martial hedgewitch at the cost of one tradition (which depending on what you're building isn't much of a loss) to gain proficient(10 talents) on top of their 15 magic talents with the ability to spend hedgewitch secrets to get more (so potentially 20 if you just don't care about secrets that much) Giving hedge-witch anywhere from a combined pool of 25 to 35 martial/magic talents to work with (not actually combined but just showing how much they can have).
Another example is sphere paladin who normally only gets 8 magic talents + another 10 martial with dirt spattered angel. ( can get expert progression if you also trade the casting, but generally having any amount of SoP talents, even as a dip is just really good for most characters.)

So personally i prefer separate talents via just trading away some other class feature (like dirt spattered angel getting 10 talents at the cost of smite evil), just because it feels more powerful to have more choices. Especially also because 2 separate pools means you can have levels gaining both martial/magic both working towards separate goals, as opposed to blended where you may need to put off getting a crucial martial talent in favor of getting all your necessary magic talents.

[khadgar567]

To repeat an earlier question: do people prefer blended training or separate progressions?

seperate progression

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Blended Traiming

[Scowling Dragon]

Blended training.

[AlienFromBeyond]

Depends on the situation with the other abilities, but in a vacuum I prefer Blended Training.

[Khosan]

So, I've got a question. There's these Investigator talents:

Self-Preparation (requires Enhancement sphere)
When you use an Enhancement sphere ability that targets yourself or your equipment exclusively, you may use your class level as your caster level. This stacks with other caster level sources normally. In addition, you may spend a point of inspiration to use the ability as a swift action.

Simple Deduction (requires Divination sphere)
You may use your investigator class level as your caster level with the Divination sphere. This stacks with other caster level sources normally. When you use the base divine ability of the sphere, you may spend an inspiration point to use an alternate divination of your choice (even if you do not possess the sphere it is associated with).

Say I play a non-spherecaster Investigator, but pick up the Basic Magical Training feat. Could I then pick up one of the above talents and use abilities from those spheres using my class level as my caster level?

[A.J.Gibson]

So, I've got a question. There's these Investigator talents:

Say I play a non-spherecaster Investigator, but pick up the Basic Magical Training feat. Could I then pick up one of the above talents and use abilities from those spheres using my class level as my caster level?

Your investigator class level, yes, which is going to be a minimum of low caster (since you have to be a spherecasting investigator). There might be some change at some point to have it read 'you get +5 to you caster, this can not bring you above your class level' or something like that. I'm fine the way it is now, though.

[Arcueid]

Here's a possible archetype suggestion. An archetype for Armorist that mixes in some of Armiger.

The two have interesting mechanics and they seem like fun to potentially do together, but the Armorist is just one of those classes that loses a lot for dipping out or multiclassing past a few levels (unless its whitesmith, then its a little too dippable). There'd probably be a way to do it being that both grant scaling enhancement bonuses, but you'd basically have to re-customize the bound equipment any time you summoned it because if it leaves your hands it would disappear; and even if you didn't have to re-customize it would still be fairly inefficient.

So the idea would be a Armorist that trades out the summoned armor, possibly their armor training as well. What they'd gain is the ability to have summoned "templates". Basically they would work similar to the Armiger's customized equipment granting additional talents based on the weapon currently summoned.

The idea of it being a "template" would be less for bound equipment and more for the summoned equipment as bound equipment already takes work to change what it is, and what it gets making it already similar in effort to modify as the Armiger's customized equipment. The template concept for summoned equipment would limited summoned equipment a bit more, but allow them to also grant talents. You would get a limited number of "templates" which would be a specific weapon or possibly weapon group and anything categorized as such when summoned would have set granted talents.
This would make it so you can't just spontaneously gain any talent you want when summoning equipment. We could just drop the summoned equipment entirely as well and keep it only around bound weapons, but my concern there is we might rip out too much identity from the Armorist if we do that and just have a Armiger who gets free weapon special abilities and less talents(as they both end up with +5 weapons otherwise). Maybe have a archetype specific (or even just built in) ability similar to variable prowess that allows them as a move action a limited number of times per day to change the enhancements or talents on it (getting some of the benefits of summoned equipment in with the bound)
Also maybe adding a free action swap, and/pr a "rapid assault" style feature as well to quickly swap between bound weapons like a Armiger swaps between customized weapons.

So the overall idea would be:

Pros:
Gain additional talents like a Armiger tied to bound/summoned equipment
~Possibly also gain a free swap or rapid assault feature
~Maybe similar to armiger have the ability to summon a pair of weapons like a armiger can have a pair of customized weapons
~Maybe an ability similar to variable prowess from Armiger that allows the enhancements or talents to be redone on a piece of bound equipment a limited number of times a day to replace summoned equipment.

Cons:
Lose bound armor
Have a somewhat more limited form of summoned equipment(to prevent just spontaneously accessing talents)
~Possibly remove summoned equipment entirely and just buff/focus the bound equipment more.
~Possibly also lose armor training

Final notes:
I would possibly keep the talents from bound equipment limited to SoM talents to let The Armiger Antiquarian not be overshadowed.
Being that martial armorist is a thing that stacks with anything we likely don't need blended training or anything as the player can pick that up should they wish.
Maybe do something slightly different with this, but the main idea is i like Armiger's feature of promoting swapping between weapons on the fly mid-combat and mixing that with the summoning mechanic of armorist.

[Domar]

I'd like to see a Champion archetype for the Alchemist.

Trade Extracts for mid casting.
Bomb for a proficient combat progression.
Mutagen for Alchemy as a bonus sphere and a scaling bonus to craft (Alchemy).

[Arcueid]

I'd like to see a Champion archetype for the Alchemist.

Trade Extracts for mid casting.
Bomb for a proficient combat progression.
Mutagen for Alchemy as a bonus sphere and a scaling bonus to craft (Alchemy).

Isn't that basically achievable with a hedgewitch then? The 3 unique class features of alchemist are extracts, bombs, and mutagens.

Hedgewitch can achieve this with herbology for one of their traditions, using martial hedgewitch for the other tradition.
Now you have combat progression, martial tradition, alchemist discoveries, mid-casting, and any other goodies hedgewitch can do. You aren't getting alchemy as a bonus sphere but thats about it.

My main problem with this is this seems like we're trading away the entire identity of a class and boiling it down to a bonus sphere talent.

[A.J.Gibson]

Here's a possible archetype suggestion. An archetype for Armorist that mixes in some of Armiger.

The two have interesting mechanics and they seem like fun to potentially do together, but the Armorist is just one of those classes that loses a lot for dipping out or multiclassing past a few levels (unless its whitesmith, then its a little too dippable). There'd probably be a way to do it being that both grant scaling enhancement bonuses, but you'd basically have to re-customize the bound equipment any time you summoned it because if it leaves your hands it would disappear; and even if you didn't have to re-customize it would still be fairly inefficient.

So the idea would be a Armorist that trades out the summoned armor, possibly their armor training as well. What they'd gain is the ability to have summoned "templates". Basically they would work similar to the Armiger's customized equipment granting additional talents based on the weapon currently summoned.

The idea of it being a "template" would be less for bound equipment and more for the summoned equipment as bound equipment already takes work to change what it is, and what it gets making it already similar in effort to modify as the Armiger's customized equipment. The template concept for summoned equipment would limited summoned equipment a bit more, but allow them to also grant talents. You would get a limited number of "templates" which would be a specific weapon or possibly weapon group and anything categorized as such when summoned would have set granted talents.
This would make it so you can't just spontaneously gain any talent you want when summoning equipment. We could just drop the summoned equipment entirely as well and keep it only around bound weapons, but my concern there is we might rip out too much identity from the Armorist if we do that and just have a Armiger who gets free weapon special abilities and less talents(as they both end up with +5 weapons otherwise). Maybe have a archetype specific (or even just built in) ability similar to variable prowess that allows them as a move action a limited number of times per day to change the enhancements or talents on it (getting some of the benefits of summoned equipment in with the bound)
Also maybe adding a free action swap, and/pr a "rapid assault" style feature as well to quickly swap between bound weapons like a Armiger swaps between customized weapons.

So the overall idea would be:

Pros:
Gain additional talents like a Armiger tied to bound/summoned equipment
~Possibly also gain a free swap or rapid assault feature
~Maybe similar to armiger have the ability to summon a pair of weapons like a armiger can have a pair of customized weapons
~Maybe an ability similar to variable prowess from Armiger that allows the enhancements or talents to be redone on a piece of bound equipment a limited number of times a day to replace summoned equipment.

Cons:
Lose bound armor
Have a somewhat more limited form of summoned equipment(to prevent just spontaneously accessing talents)
~Possibly remove summoned equipment entirely and just buff/focus the bound equipment more.
~Possibly also lose armor training

Final notes:
I would possibly keep the talents from bound equipment limited to SoM talents to let The Armiger Antiquarian not be overshadowed.
Being that martial armorist is a thing that stacks with anything we likely don't need blended training or anything as the player can pick that up should they wish.
Maybe do something slightly different with this, but the main idea is i like Armiger's feature of promoting swapping between weapons on the fly mid-combat and mixing that with the summoning mechanic of armorist.

I was actually thinking of doing this for the Living Weapon in the Protection handbook, but didn't want to do the research :)
The AoP book is mostly SoP + PF classes, but I'm pretty sure there are going to be some SoM handbooks, so this could be a good idea there.

[Arcueid]

I was actually thinking of doing this for the Living Weapon in the Protection handbook, but didn't want to do the research :)
The AoP book is mostly SoP + PF classes, but I'm pretty sure there are going to be some SoM handbooks, so this could be a good idea there.

Thats fair. It seemed like a possible place as it was an archetype for a SoP class (just with some SoM stuff thrown in).

[Dr_Dinosaur]

I was actually thinking of doing this for the Living Weapon in the Protection handbook, but didn't want to do the research :)
The AoP book is mostly SoP + PF classes, but I'm pretty sure there are going to be some SoM handbooks, so this could be a good idea there.

I hope so. Now that 2e is on its way I’m afraid of SoM being left unfinished

[Arcueid]

I hope so. Now that 2e is on its way I’m afraid of SoM being left unfinished

To be fair i think we need an actual complete ruleset to determine if pathfinder players are going to be interested in 2e. As it stands Paizo is being as vague as they can, and what they have released ranges between promising to worrying. With my group there's vague interest but we're also pretty certain its just going to be just a 5e clone which defeats the purpose considering we played pathfinder because we liked the options and complexity of 3.5 rather than the simplified systems of 4th/5th.

Which if it comes to that at least in our group we're pretty ok with just using spheres as supplemental content going forward and ignoring 2e.

[EldritchWeaver]

what they have released ranges between promising to worrying.

I'd like to upvote this 9000 times.

Which if it comes to that at least in our group we're pretty ok with just using spheres as supplemental content going forward and ignoring 2e.

I'll do a playtest run separately to the main group to see if PF2 pans out.

[Quarian Rex]

To repeat an earlier question: do people prefer blended training or separate progressions?

Blended training is usually just a bad idea in general. It is an option that gets thrown on classes that can least afford it (usually martial low-casters) trading magical talents that they can't afford to lose for martial talents that are minimally effective in low doses (they require some investment to really be worth it). This also has the downside that any class that has Blended Training is barred from the Feat to Talent Progression Conversion option (since they technically have a combat talent progression, even if they don't use it) which would otherwise be a superior solution for a character who wanted to gish SoP and SoM. Not to mention that it provides the most martial classes (the low-casters) with the fewest martial options, it is just a poor mechanic in general.

The only time that I've seen this sort of thing be even vaguely usable was with the Blade Magic Talents of the Mystic archetype for the Magus. Same concept but with some wiggle room to make interesting choices, without feeling like you have to cripple yourself to fulfill your role.

Separate progressions would be a much better idea. Then you can at least tailor the progressions to the class as appropriate instead of having everything draw from the same un-adjusted pool of resources.

For those showing support for blended training without elaborating, why do you thing that it is a superior option? It's definitely a simpler conversion but simple =/= the right call. What value do you see in it?

I'd like to see a Champion archetype for the Alchemist.

Trade Extracts for mid casting.
Bomb for a proficient combat progression.
Mutagen for Alchemy as a bonus sphere and a scaling bonus to craft (Alchemy).

Isn't that basically achievable with a hedgewitch then? The 3 unique class features of alchemist are extracts, bombs, and mutagens.

Hedgewitch can achieve this with herbology for one of their traditions, using martial hedgewitch for the other tradition.
Now you have combat progression, martial tradition, alchemist discoveries, mid-casting, and any other goodies hedgewitch can do. You aren't getting alchemy as a bonus sphere but thats about it.

My main problem with this is this seems like we're trading away the entire identity of a class and boiling it down to a bonus sphere talent.

Some of us put more stock in the Discoveries class ability than others, they offer options and abilities that are found nowhere else and supply half the flavor of the class all on its own. I like the Alchemist for the mad scientist niche that it occupies but I (and many others) tend to think that the standard class features of extracts, bombs, and mutagens don't actually add much to that central concept (throwing molotov cocktails doesn't necessarily scream 'Mad Scientist' to a lot of people, nor does a once per day self-buff that can't be shared). Sphere access can fill the thematic niche of all those features in a superior manner (Alteration does a much better Dr. Moreau, and other Spheres using various foci can support all of your Genius needs) but there is no option that can replace the discoveries and there is no other class or archetype that gives full access to them, other than the Experimenter archetype for the Thaumaturge, but that does so in a very different direction (specifically being a full caster with low caster talent progression among many other things) and only at half the normal rate (every 4 levels instead of every 2 and fighting for space with bonus feats and Sneak Attack damage).

Can the Hedgewitch do some similar things? Sure. Is there room for the Alchemist to have some nice toys as well? Yes there is. Would the Alchemist still be distinctive enough for the archetype to be worth it? Damn straight it would be. I, and others, would bloody love to see something like what Domar proposed. In fact, I've spent a lot of time trying to make builds with existing resources that mirror this proposal to varying levels of success. Having an actual archetype for it would be phenomenal.

[Aipaca]

Blended training is usually just a bad idea in general. It is an option that gets thrown on classes that can least afford it (usually martial low-casters) trading magical talents that they can't afford to lose for martial talents that are minimally effective in low doses (they require some investment to really be worth it). This also has the downside that any class that has Blended Training is barred from the Feat to Talent Progression Conversion option (since they technically have a combat talent progression, even if they don't use it) which would otherwise be a superior solution for a character who wanted to gish SoP and SoM. Not to mention that it provides the most martial classes (the low-casters) with the fewest martial options, it is just a poor mechanic in general.

The only time that I've seen this sort of thing be even vaguely usable was with the Blade Magic Talents of the Mystic archetype for the Magus. Same concept but with some wiggle room to make interesting choices, without feeling like you have to cripple yourself to fulfill your role.

Separate progressions would be a much better idea. Then you can at least tailor the progressions to the class as appropriate instead of having everything draw from the same un-adjusted pool of resources.

For those showing support for blended training without elaborating, why do you thing that it is a superior option? It's definitely a simpler conversion but simple =/= the right call. What value do you see in it?

I could not agree more, blended training is so incredibly frustrating on - for example - the Empathic Duelist Eliciter. The class wants to spend talents on Mind Sphere stuff, but also wants to get enough Combat Talents to do their combat thing, and 3/4 levels split between the two is just not enough.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

To be fair i think we need an actual complete ruleset to determine if pathfinder players are going to be interested in 2e. As it stands Paizo is being as vague as they can, and what they have released ranges between promising to worrying. With my group there's vague interest but we're also pretty certain its just going to be just a 5e clone which defeats the purpose considering we played pathfinder because we liked the options and complexity of 3.5 rather than the simplified systems of 4th/5th.

Which if it comes to that at least in our group we're pretty ok with just using spheres as supplemental content going forward and ignoring 2e.

I feel the same, but they’ve already said that Spheres is getting “wrapped up” quicker than initially planned because 2e is on the way.

[Kaouse]

I like Blended Training because I 'm the type of player to only take the bare minimum of what I need from a sphere and be fine with it.

Thus, the ability to select from either magic talents or martial talents at will is fairly useful to me, especially if I cannot spare the feats for a conversion. I guess I'm somewhat of a dabbler, in that case.

That said, if separate progressions mean a grand total of more talents, then I'm definitely all for that option.

Also, I really, really want to see an Inquisitor archetype that gets access to both Spheres of Power and Spheres of Might.

I personally like the "Strike Team Leader" idea myself, since it also ties into the "hunter" aspects of an Inquisitor. Sharing Judgement as a totem effect. Sharing Bane as a Shout. Possibly at reduced power, and probably trading out double & triple judgement (and perhaps Greater Bane) to increase said power, but that's just one possibility.

Replacing the Inquisitor's Not-Teamwork Feats with Squadron Team Feats would be cool too, IMHO.

[AlienFromBeyond]

For those showing support for blended training without elaborating, why do you thing that it is a superior option? It's definitely a simpler conversion but simple =/= the right call. What value do you see in it?

Well in the case of Mageknight for instance you have plenty of things to spend SP on that *aren't* magic talents, so you want to be able to keep your spell pool but take combat talents instead. In addition, SoM combat talents don't cover nearly as much as feats do, the feats are just plain more versatile so I value having them more than swapping them out for a SoM talent progression. I see low-casters as the one who are most willing to give up their magic talents for combat talents, as the variety of effects they can pick that are actually useful with their CL is small and generally requires little investment anyways. It gets a little bit iffy with mid-casters though I agree, though my favorite midcaster doesn't need to worry about it because Hedgewitch is awesome.

I will also echo Kaouse's statement, sometimes I want mostly one set of talents and then a very small dip into the other Spheres system, which Blended Training does very well without forcing you into heavy investment.

[Mithril Leaf]

For those showing support for blended training without elaborating, why do you thing that it is a superior option? It's definitely a simpler conversion but simple =/= the right call. What value do you see in it?

Because thus far most of the blended training classes get more talents than they would with separate progressions. If I get more total talents, and can also put all of them exactly where I want them, how could that possibly be worse?

[Arcueid]

The only time that I've seen this sort of thing be even vaguely usable was with the Blade Magic Talents of the Mystic archetype for the Magus. Same concept but with some wiggle room to make interesting choices, without feeling like you have to cripple yourself to fulfill your role.

I agree with this, but i'd make the point that the main reason this form of blended training works is because the magus gained 5 more talents than a mid caster would normally have, having full 20 progression between magic and martial is alot better than 15 to be split.

Thats why i'm not a fan of martial armorist/mageknight because its basically better to trade feats and use mystic combats/armorist tricks to gain martial talents/combat feats because you just don't get more talents; not to mention how silly powerful martial hedgewitch is in comparison because they just get to have to separate progressions.

Some of us put more stock in the Discoveries class ability than others

Yes, there is some stuff missing, but i would make the counter argument that much of what you said is hinged on the fact that nothing else can access that list (minus thaumaturge, which is generally a terrible class at least when you compare it to things like hedgewitch).

So my main argument is
1. You could easily just make an archetype for another class that can access the list in some sort of meaningful way. Really you could make a new hedgewitch tradition considering we already have one that just has access to the whole rogue talent list.
2. Also a good chunk of those discoveries exist to modify extracts, mutagens, and bombs as well, so you're removing alot of the usefulness of that list as well. So rather than removing all the class features that are the identity of the class you could just take all the poison/alchemy focused ones and put them on another class like hedgewitch to let them burn their secrets/tricks/talents/ect...on those because adding those to a class would take less and need to trade away less that whats being suggested to be traded away to gain stuff these other classes already have access to.

I don't disagree with making some sort of alchemist archetype in the theme of champion but maybe we just have archetypes with focuses on features; like a mutagen focused alchemist, a bomb focused, a poison focused one; that way if we're going to argue that the discoveries are important to the identity of the class we keep the features they are meant to work with.

-----

On a side note that i've been wanting to mention; i actually didn't have a huge problem with the alchemist archetype that was in this playtest book originally before it was deleted, it just needed some sort of tweaks considering turning sphere spells into poisons isn't a terrible idea, it just is also very abusable with sticky poison and the double dosage discoveries. So it could've had some balance tweaks like limiting what discoveries work with it, or just having the poison forms of the spells not work at full CL. (because my double dosage sticky poison destructive blast that i'm TWF with might have been a little silly at full CL potency)