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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default A DMs dilemma - to let the party loiter or not?

    Hi folks!
    I’m running a Monsters campaign and it’s a ton of fun so far but I’ve run into a stumbling block in my planning.
    Some background - The party size fluctuates between 3 and 7 people, typically its about 4-5 who make it. (I have some trades-people in my group and others with family commitments), so my encounters are currently designed for 4 characters and then I come up with drop-in NPCs to balance the fight if more PCs make the game. Currently they are level 4.

    The party composition is solid. My regulars are a goblin and yuan`ti warlock (both chain pact), a lizardman barbarian (desert totem) and a hobgoblin war cleric. We also have a kobold draconic sorcerer, bear totem barb (gnoll), and a half-orc rogue.
    My players are a mix of experience levels but they have gelled well and are all mature enough to handle having a character dropped during a fight.
    They are marauding around a typical High Fantasy realm, burning farmsteads, murdering travelers and recently, razing a small coastal town. Their next stop is a large sword smithy, where they plan on holing up and making some gear.

    They’ve already “mapped” the area, they’ve travelled around enough that they have a scope of where things are and know there is a large city located two days from the smithy. After burning the coastal village (and literally everything else in their path, they really do love fire) they have become a known threat and once they occupy the smithy they’ll fight a defensive encounter (which I have designed). But what do I do after that? They want to make an item that will take significant time and after fending off the first attack I think it’s reasonable that the Forces of Good would send a powerful army to destroy this monstrous threat.

    My dilemma is that if I do that, it feels like I’m robbing them of the option to use the forge, which they’ve been really excited about doing since they discovered it. I also want to avoid having several defensive battles in a row, or a protracted siege (the smithy isn’t THAT defensible or large) and I don’t just want to overrun them and force them to flee.
    Suggestions?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    QuickLyRaiNbow's Avatar

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    Default Re: A DMs dilemma - to let the party loiter or not?

    I think you make those concerns known to the party and then let them make their decision. If they're still committed to the plan, then go with it.

    If your party is really excited about doing something, twist your plans to accommodate that excitement. That's the stuff engaged players are made of.
    In-character problems require in-character solutions. Out-of-character problems require out-of-character solutions.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RangerGuy

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    Default Re: A DMs dilemma - to let the party loiter or not?

    Do a time skip and assume they managed to fend off the army?

    If it has been established clearly in the fiction that things take time there, and that they are a threat that would most likely be hunted down, I wouldn't be too worried about chasing them away either. If the players expect it, let the natural consequences of their actions happen and so on...

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

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    Default Re: A DMs dilemma - to let the party loiter or not?

    If they provoke the local defenders of all that is Good and Not-Humanoid, and then they stay put in an area that they can't defend, they get what they deserve.

    If you haven't planned out what's in the area in advance to respond to their incursions, you should do it now. An evil group terrorizing the populace isn't the same kind of campaign as series of scenes adventure. It's not enough to just plan a few encounters and call it a day. Start by treating it like an organized dungeon, but on a larger scale. Know what the local population has in terms of resources they can and will respond with once the "monsters" start razing villages.

    It's like if the PCs are going to invade the Hobgoblin Outpost of Gobcavia. Guard outposts can alert the main caves, responses can happen, if the players retreat or hole up they face a changed situation, and as a last ditch the Gobs can either summon allies or retreat to their (larger) main base of Castle Gobbase. Same concept, larger scale, since it's the entire local area.

    Most importantly though ... this kind of campaign it makes little sense to throw level appropriate challenges at the players. Make them world appropriate instead. Let them bite off what they can chew, or choke if they can't.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: A DMs dilemma - to let the party loiter or not?

    Historically, marauders were successful because they could move faster than the forces that could reliably engage them. So if they're staying in one place, they'll have some time... but not a month.

    Give them a week, then they learn that the King's army is on the way. They have a week before they really have to leave. Spend time conveying that this is a big force.

    If they wait the extra week, things are harder for them. Multiple large armies are hunting them and they have to dodge around them. Make it a hard exploration/navigation challenge. Loitering gives everyone who hates them time to organize and rally. This allows for a 'next level challenge' type of situation. They're riding high on power at the moment, time to rough them up a bit so that when they do win it's that much more satisfying.

    If they don't get out of the way of the army, kill 'em. Murder them. Have them drawn and quartered. That's how I'd run it.
    Last edited by strangebloke; 2018-04-20 at 10:53 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: A DMs dilemma - to let the party loiter or not?

    One of the things to take into account is time. How long will it take for the group to accomplish their goal at the smithy? How long would it reasonably take their enemies to gather an actual army and travel that army to the party's location? After the initial defensive battle, you're assuming that the NPCs would just gather up a huge army and send it. But that takes more time than you might think, after all even if the kingdom has large standing army, they wouldn't all be concentrated in a single spot, they would be dispersed. That means there is going to be some time for them to all gather for the assault on the party in the smithy. It's also reasonable to assume that while the party is considered a threat, they're not considered a big enough danger that the kingdom's heavy-hitters are involved, so it'd be more low quality grunts against the party.

    Another thing to consider: this party is developing a name and a reputation. What if that reputation also brings them allies who want to fight against the forces of good? A hobgoblin warlord hears of their victories and wants to get in on the battle, or an orc tribe sees a worthy battle coming.

    You could also provide them sabotage opportunities. Maybe they don't have the numbers to fight head on when the enemy army finally gathers, but there are going to be vulnerable points that a stealthy approach could exploit, like tampering with the army's food and water.

    They have a goal and plan that involve the smithy. It's a focus point for now. It'd be silly to not make them work hard to meet that goal. And you don't have to go straight to an enemy army coming after them. Maybe the defensive battle that the parties wins convinces the kingdom to put bounties on them that a party of NPC adventurers comes after them? That adds more time before an actual army comes after them.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Beholder

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    Default Re: A DMs dilemma - to let the party loiter or not?

    One possibility might be to let the local authorities send in a force, but encourage the players to be prepared to outsmart them rather than fight them.

    With a little hiding, magic, and persuasion, the players could pretend to be survivors that came back after the dangerous monsters raided and left.

    If they play their cards right, they might be able to make use of the forge right in front of the authorities, without them being the wiser.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

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    Default Re: A DMs dilemma - to let the party loiter or not?

    Your players are monsters who are reaching a turning point in their escapades and have made a plan of action after they achieve their current goal.

    You are no longer in control. I said it, I mean it, and I thinks it's the best thing in the world for your adventure now. Stop building the adventure for them, build the adventure because of them. Ask them what they're doing, and figure out how the world is responding to it. Hopefully you've taken note of their antics up to this point. You have ammunition there to create the opposition for your players. Did they leave a trail of death and destruction but a young man and his friend survived? Hey, that sounds like the back story of one of my players from the other game I used to play.... You now get to play the heroes instead of the monsters, shift roles and have fun.

    I do have one question which is extremely important right now: What are your success and failure states? If they "win" what happens? If they "fail" are the players headed for a tpk?

    With that answer well defined, you should also be able to create responses to your players which is appropriate as well.
    Last edited by DMThac0; 2018-04-20 at 11:09 AM.
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  9. - Top - End - #9
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: A DMs dilemma - to let the party loiter or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    If they provoke the local defenders of all that is Good and Not-Humanoid, and then they stay put in an area that they can't defend, they get what they deserve.

    If you haven't planned out what's in the area in advance to respond to their incursions, you should do it now. An evil group terrorizing the populace isn't the same kind of campaign as series of scenes adventure. It's not enough to just plan a few encounters and call it a day. Start by treating it like an organized dungeon, but on a larger scale. Know what the local population has in terms of resources they can and will respond with once the "monsters" start razing villages.

    It's like if the PCs are going to invade the Hobgoblin Outpost of Gobcavia. Guard outposts can alert the main caves, responses can happen, if the players retreat or hole up they face a changed situation, and as a last ditch the Gobs can either summon allies or retreat to their (larger) main base of Castle Gobbase. Same concept, larger scale, since it's the entire local area.

    Most importantly though ... this kind of campaign it makes little sense to throw level appropriate challenges at the players. Make them world appropriate instead. Let them bite off what they can chew, or choke if they can't.
    This has been my approach for the majority of it. I created several locations and let them go where they wanted, giving them in-story explanations of what they see and encounter. I have a force organization chart and local militia strengths, several NPC groups of varying composition and level and some neutral/friendly groups as well. My preference with campaigns of this nature is to build a world and let the characters live in it rather than try to tell a set story.
    They harassed the major city about 3 weeks ago in game time, setting several grass fires outside its walls and then murdering the poor fire brigade sent to deal with the fires and have been active in the area for 5 weeks.
    Most of the large standing army is deployed elsewhere, which has made them bold, but they have also seen and avoided leveled NPC parties so the party knows they exist in area.

    I think it comes down to what most of you are saying regarding time - letting the party decide how long they want to try and hole up, and then rewarding or punishing them for their choice - I think my biggest fear is that they'll bite off more than they can chew and wipe, which is fine, I don't have a long storyline planned out, just lots of NPCs that are totally reusable in other games, but most of the players are just starting to really develop their characters and I'd hate to see it end so soon.

    Taking what y'all have said into consideration:
    - I have ruled out allowing them to dismantle the forge and take parts of it with them but I have provided them a crude forge in another location that they already discovered, so they could finish the work there if forced to flee early. This way I can dodge railroading them out of
    - There should be an escape route, even if it isn't obvious (they made friends with a local band of greenskin bards who could show up and help them get away with longstrider and invisibility or something)
    - If they stay longer than a week then the second army should be deadly. There is no reason for the Forces of Good to pussyfoot about with an obvious threat of significance
    - NPC groups are already actively hunting them, a good second wave would be one of these groups, small but potent with enough threat that it should convince them to make haste and not overstay their welcome at the forge.
    - Bounties are a great idea, especially since they have made an enemy of a local hobgoblin chief

    Any other suggestions? I really appreciate the feedback from everyone!
    “Be authentic to your dreams. Be authentic to your own idea about yourself. Grind away at your own minds and bodies until you become your own invention. Be Mad Scientists.” ― Warren Ellis

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: A DMs dilemma - to let the party loiter or not?

    “Build an army worthy of Mordor“
    That would be my suggestion for the players. Start building an army to lay claim to the region.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: A DMs dilemma - to let the party loiter or not?

    they reap what they sow, but here is the thing, it takes time to raise a militia. when they get stomped, it takes time to send out requests for adventurers. when they get stomped out, it takes even MORE time (and money) to get even more adventurers. In essence, your characters could spend months without being attacked because things take time.
    The party could also hire scouts to let them know when danger comes (they can prepare to fight or to hide). They could be the subject of do-gooder adventurers trying to earn their stripes.

    They chose to be evil, and that has consequences
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  12. - Top - End - #12
    Nobody in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: A DMs dilemma - to let the party loiter or not?

    From what I've learned from evil campaigns is that the party is going to amass wealth and power at a much faster rate than your typical "hero" party, but that has to come with some kind of price, and that is usually the fact that they have to stay on the run almost constantly. I would not allow them to "hold up" anywhere for long. Once they're established "bag guys," they need to know that they are being hunted constantly by officials, heroes, and bounty hunters.

    I would establish and flesh out a group of NPC "good guys" that are always after them and make it clear that it's not a fight that they are going to ever win outright. You can design some terrific encounters around this. Just make sure that anytime they fight, they have an escape route by any means. Grabbing a hostage or two usually works.

    I'd have the NPC party led by a powerful Paladin or two. Lawful Good of course. You can basically build an entire hero party to chase after them. I'd probably throw a variety of Fighters in there, a Life Cleric, and a couple of control casters. Just make sure they are much stronger than your monster party. They should always be at least a few levels higher at all times.

    So to make a long story short, I'd never let them stay anywhere for long unless they go a while behaving themselves and kind of fall off the grid for a time first. If they try to hold up somewhere, I'd make them pay.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: A DMs dilemma - to let the party loiter or not?

    You could also scale the difficulty of the challenge to craft whatever it is they are trying to make depending on how much time they want to make it. So if they want to take their time, it's easy to craft but they are at significant risk from the locals. Or they can do a rush job to get out before the enemy hits them, but it would be harder to craft.

    This also potentially lets you take advantage of the fact that you have a fluctuating sized group. Whatever player is not present could be off-screen doing the forging work while the characters screw with the Vanguard of the approaching Army and try to distract them mislead them or delay them to give more time to craft their MacGuffin

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: A DMs dilemma - to let the party loiter or not?

    The group should have the smith work at the forge, while the rest distract the force of good somewhere else.

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: A DMs dilemma - to let the party loiter or not?

    Thanks for all the feedback!

    The party has taken the forge and are holing up in it.
    The hobgoblin looted a set of half-plate off of a dead adventurer and wants to craft it into heavy armor so I took some advice from here and said "half a week to make splint mail out of it, a full week to make plate".
    The gnoll wants to make a flail from the skulls of his foes and a shield from their bones, so I said half a week for each.
    The first attack will come on day 3, just before they finish their 1/2 week items, the second will be a leveled party who has been tracking them the day they complete their items, should they choose to stay for the full week they will be besieged and by a significant force and have to find a way out. They are dangerous enough that the Forces of Good will not immediately try to rush the forge so they'll have time to make a plan and try to enact it.
    Things they can do
    - Escape: My players are pretty crafty so I won't have to leave an intentional gap, they'll come up with something to make their own. They have access to mounts and magic to aid with this.
    - Summon help: They have made a number of friends and could call on them to help break the siege
    - Dig in: not their best choice, but some of them are pretty confident in their murder-powers

    Aftermath
    The mine nearby will be much heavier defended, the local towns will be on alert and well-equipped patrols will travel the road.
    The party, having killed a LOT of people at this point have also incurred the wrath of a couple of high level NPC groups who are now actively hunting them
    If they escape without calling in their allies, but fail to notify their allies of their actions then it is likely that their allies will suffer for it

    Again, I appreciate y'all for your input and insights :)
    “Be authentic to your dreams. Be authentic to your own idea about yourself. Grind away at your own minds and bodies until you become your own invention. Be Mad Scientists.” ― Warren Ellis

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: A DMs dilemma - to let the party loiter or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by krazedkoi View Post
    Thanks for all the feedback!

    The party has taken the forge and are holing up in it.
    The hobgoblin looted a set of half-plate off of a dead adventurer and wants to craft it into heavy armor so I took some advice from here and said "half a week to make splint mail out of it, a full week to make plate".
    The gnoll wants to make a flail from the skulls of his foes and a shield from their bones, so I said half a week for each.
    The first attack will come on day 3, just before they finish their 1/2 week items, the second will be a leveled party who has been tracking them the day they complete their items, should they choose to stay for the full week they will be besieged and by a significant force and have to find a way out. They are dangerous enough that the Forces of Good will not immediately try to rush the forge so they'll have time to make a plan and try to enact it.
    Things they can do
    - Escape: My players are pretty crafty so I won't have to leave an intentional gap, they'll come up with something to make their own. They have access to mounts and magic to aid with this.
    - Summon help: They have made a number of friends and could call on them to help break the siege
    - Dig in: not their best choice, but some of them are pretty confident in their murder-powers

    Aftermath
    The mine nearby will be much heavier defended, the local towns will be on alert and well-equipped patrols will travel the road.
    The party, having killed a LOT of people at this point have also incurred the wrath of a couple of high level NPC groups who are now actively hunting them
    If they escape without calling in their allies, but fail to notify their allies of their actions then it is likely that their allies will suffer for it

    Again, I appreciate y'all for your input and insights :)
    I like this, it feels a fair approach between giving them the opportunity to complete their goals, while making them work for it, balanced against world consequences for their actions.

    If they survive this, it sounds like it might be time for the party to take a trip and lay low in another country for a while.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: A DMs dilemma - to let the party loiter or not?

    Looks like you've got a good handle on the situation.

    One thing I might add is adding or modifying an NPC party to be a selfish mercenary group in service to one of the LG kingdoms. Giving your party the option to flip some powerful but obviously self-serving enemies to allies could be a fun opportunity to introduce a recurring foil.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Angelalex242's Avatar

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    Default Re: A DMs dilemma - to let the party loiter or not?

    Well, make a 'standard party' right of the PHB with good alignments. Make them 'your party' as if you were building pregens for another adventure.

    Then send the party right at your players. Fight to win. For fairness sake, make all your rolls in plain sight. Let the dice fall where they may.

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