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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to kill a vampire that's in gaseous form?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    I believe it's pretty clear the intention is that any damage that would reduce a vampire below 0 is ignored, because at 0 the vampire becomes gaseous, even if that occures at some point mid-attack.
    That's pretty much how I'd rule it too (otherwise people are going to be killing vampires left and right and that doesn't sit very well with me. They already have enough weaknesses as it is!)

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: How to harm a vampire that's in gaseous form?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deophaun View Post
    Doesn't work like that. If neither "incapacitated" or "destroyed" are terms defined by the game, then they default to their plain English meanings, and what I said remains true: destroying is just one way to incapacitate. You need incapacitated to be a game term for it to be mutually exclusive with destroyed for your claim to be true.
    Incapacitation in English does not carrying the implication of destruction except euphemistically or ironically. The words are not related or synonymous; therefore if something is destroyed it is not incapacitated as well as the inverse, at least in plain English.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: How to kill a vampire that's in gaseous form?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian View Post
    It may just be late but this post is confusing me. What are you doing with the summons? Summoning them straight into the sphere? For what purpose?
    While I was wrong on it targetting a creature, it still must be centered on a creature. If using them as stepping stones, to block a hallway, or similar, there needs to be the additional step. A 1st level spell isn't exactly expensive. Additionally, that lets you somewhat bypass your real target's Reflex save (what happens if you're a rogue adjacent to a small creature that gets put into a 15-foot diameter Resilient Sphere?)
    Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: How to harm a vampire that's in gaseous form?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZamielVanWeber View Post
    Incapacitation in English does not carrying the implication of destruction except euphemistically or ironically.
    i didn't say it carried the implication. I said that it was not mutually exclusive. If you want to argue against a point, please argue against the point that was made, not one you invented.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZamielVanWeber View Post
    therefore if something is destroyed it is not incapacitated as well as the inverse
    If true, what is the word "always" doing here?
    Reducing a vampire’s hit points to 0 or lower incapacitates it but doesn’t always destroy it.
    That should be "incapacitates it but doesn't destroy" if your understanding of plain English was correct. As the presence of "always" does strongly imply that it is possible to be both incapacitated and destroyed at the same time.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: How to kill a vampire that's in gaseous form?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    Did you miss this part of the fast healing ability?
    I did actually yeah haha. I'm just brooding over how bad the Gaseous Form spell is, but I guess for Vampires it ain't too bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deeds View Post
    Caster backstories require a reason as to why they can cast spells. Wizards study hard to learn spells. Sorcerers often learn of their powers and then hone them through traveling. Clerics use piety to find the gift of spells through the gods or their ideals. Druids shun deodorant until a riding dog appears and they learn Entangle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Zom, my imaginary hat is off to you. *Horns? *What horns? *It's just an unusual hairstyle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    There are certain advantages to a game being as badly written as 3.5.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: How to harm a vampire that's in gaseous form?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deophaun View Post
    i didn't say it carried the implication. I said that it was not mutually exclusive. If you want to argue against a point, please argue against the point that was made, not one you invented.
    You took my sentence out of context and defeated the half argument. That is the classic definition of a strawman. Let me state it exceptionally plainly: they are mutually exclusive. If we are stuck to plain English meanings then those two states do not coexist in the same place and time.

    If true, what is the word "always" doing here?
    Because the ability would be dysfunctional if it didn't. The sentence reads, if we were to use precise language: "Reducing a vampire’s hit points to 0 or lower incapacitates it; a vampire is only destroyed by having it's hit points reduced below 0 if it is unable to reach it's coffin as described in it's fast healing ability."

    That should be "incapacitates it but doesn't destroy" if your understanding of plain English was correct. As the presence of "always" does strongly imply that it is possible to be both incapacitated and destroyed at the same time.
    So before I posted that I checked with someone who a linguistics degree and a professional writer, as well as consulting dictionaries and thesauruses. That is the plain English. Your assessment also would mean it could never be destroyed by reducing it's hit points below 0 without adding a long string of text to counter-act that line.

    Everything I have asserted is RAW, in plain English, and renders the ability functional. Your assessment is both shakier and renders the ability dysfunctional. By convention on this forums, at the least, since there is a reasonable and functional reading of the text, that one takes precedence.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: How to harm a vampire that's in gaseous form?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZamielVanWeber View Post
    You took my sentence out of context and defeated the half argument.
    Actually, your first sentence had absolutely nothing to do with what I said. If you're saying that it wasn't intended as an argument, that would make it a red herring.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZamielVanWeber View Post
    Let me state it exceptionally plainly: they are mutually exclusive. If we are stuck to plain English meanings then those two states do not coexist in the same place and time.
    You are wrong. But go on.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZamielVanWeber View Post
    Because the ability would be dysfunctional if it didn't.
    This doesn't follow at all. (Non sequitur, since we're naming fallacies) Removing the word "always" doesn't make the text dysfunctional. It would be very clear that vampires were incapacitated but not killed by saying exactly that.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZamielVanWeber View Post
    The sentence reads, if we were to use precise language: "Reducing a vampire’s hit points to 0 or lower incapacitates it; a vampire is only destroyed by having it's hit points reduced below 0 if it is unable to reach it's coffin as described in it's fast healing ability."
    Are we not already using precise language? If so, it should say what it says. If we aren't using precise language, then it would be impossible to convert it to precise language, as we must preserve the imprecision. You completely undermine your point here.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZamielVanWeber View Post
    So before I posted that I checked with someone who a linguistics degree and a professional writer, as well as consulting dictionaries and thesauruses.
    At this point I laughed. The "I checked with my expert friend who lives in Canada, you guys wouldn't know him" is invariably used to defend the worst nonsense on the Internet. Have a good day.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: How to harm a vampire that's in gaseous form?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deophaun View Post
    i didn't say it carried the implication. I said that it was not mutually exclusive. If you want to argue against a point, please argue against the point that was made, not one you invented.

    If true, what is the word "always" doing here?

    That should be "incapacitates it but doesn't destroy" if your understanding of plain English was correct. As the presence of "always" does strongly imply that it is possible to be both incapacitated and destroyed at the same time.
    The non-absolute wording is to allow for DM fiat to allow certain forms of damage from ancient artifacts, or custom spells (or disintegrate) to actually finish off a vampire.
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    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: How to harm a vampire that's in gaseous form?

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    With a speed of 20', following it isn't such a bad idea. The problem is when it inevitably slips through a pre-planned tiny gap. Some kind of tracking spell works, and/or scrying it.
    When I ran a Vampire Lord and his brood for an E6 campaign I had him play up being old, paranoid and aware of tropes (from personal experience). The castle they lived in was actually just a giant pile of undead, oozes and traps stuck in various sealed rooms. The vampires lived in coffins inside a sealed room on top of a dummy tower, entrance to which was through pipes sized for diminutive creatures (vampires being able to travel as bats or gas clouds).
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: How to harm a vampire that's in gaseous form?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    When I ran a Vampire Lord and his brood for an E6 campaign I had him play up being old, paranoid and aware of tropes (from personal experience). The castle they lived in was actually just a giant pile of undead, oozes and traps stuck in various sealed rooms. The vampires lived in coffins inside a sealed room on top of a dummy tower, entrance to which was through pipes sized for diminutive creatures (vampires being able to travel as bats or gas clouds).
    Vampires in e6 really seems like the move. I love it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deeds View Post
    Caster backstories require a reason as to why they can cast spells. Wizards study hard to learn spells. Sorcerers often learn of their powers and then hone them through traveling. Clerics use piety to find the gift of spells through the gods or their ideals. Druids shun deodorant until a riding dog appears and they learn Entangle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Zom, my imaginary hat is off to you. *Horns? *What horns? *It's just an unusual hairstyle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    There are certain advantages to a game being as badly written as 3.5.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: How to harm a vampire that's in gaseous form?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian View Post
    Vampires in e6 really seems like the move. I love it.
    E6 really helps make the game's mechanics and the setting mesh together. Mindflayers are squishy but dangerous, low level demons are actually dangerous, an Elder Evil can actually threaten the world, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: How to harm a vampire that's in gaseous form?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deophaun View Post
    That should be "incapacitates it but doesn't destroy" if your understanding of plain English was correct. As the presence of "always" does strongly imply that it is possible to be both incapacitated and destroyed at the same time.
    Isn't that because they suffer extra damage from spells like Sunburst and Sunlight that deal HP damage and are stated in their description to specifically destroy vampires instead of incapacitating them?

    But I mean, D&D 3rd edition has used "always" in really weird ways forever. Remember "always evil"? On creatures that are sometimes good and have a good deity that they worship? Or the mention of redeeming evil in Book of Exalted Deeds?

    "Always" can be considered to carried with a bunch of asterisks every time it is used.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: How to harm a vampire that's in gaseous form?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    The non-absolute wording is to allow for DM fiat to allow certain forms of damage from ancient artifacts, or custom spells (or disintegrate) to actually finish off a vampire.
    It does that as well. The absolute wording is under the fast healing entry which tells you the only circumstance in which a Vampire is forced into its invulnerable gaseous form.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordaedil View Post
    Isn't that because they suffer extra damage from spells like Sunburst and Sunlight that deal HP damage and are stated in their description to specifically destroy vampires instead of incapacitating them?
    It's because phrases like "dead or otherwise incapacitated" exist.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: How to kill a vampire that's in gaseous form?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    You fart at it. The fart gas will mix with the vampire gas, and when the vampire reforms, it'll smell like farts. Then the vampire will try to wash off the stench, and the running water from the shower will kill it.

    Kinda like this?

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