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2018-04-21, 02:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2018
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- Philippines
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Can You Run A Game Without "Alignments"
Hey everyone, been making a chronicle to run with friends for some time now.
Some of them are kinda new to the game and thought that the alignment system is kind of confusing and difficult to follow. The good news is that we already homebrewed our own setting distinct from D&D or Pathfinder which our game is based on. However, I'm still curious whether or not alignment has other properties that make it too important to discard in a good game.
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2018-04-21, 02:23 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2013
Re: Can You Run A Game Without "Alignments"
Yes.
Although, you can expect players and characters to still have beliefs about moral/immoral and act upon those beliefs. It is rare to avoid that influence.
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2018-04-21, 02:35 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: Can You Run A Game Without "Alignments"
If you're using D&D 3.5/PF rules, alignment has specific game effects that you need to look out for. If you're playing D&D 5e, not so much. In that version, alignment is basically just a tool to help define your personality. If you're following the rules of any other game besides D&D/PF, alignment probably isn't even a thing at all.
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2018-04-21, 03:29 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2017
Re: Can You Run A Game Without "Alignments"
Pathfinder has alternate rules/recommendations for running a game without alignment, if you want something to start with.
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2018-04-21, 05:09 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2015
Re: Can You Run A Game Without "Alignments"
It is easy to play without it. It is what most systems do. D&D has it mostly due to tradition.
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2018-04-21, 05:12 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
- Location
- In my library
Re: Can You Run A Game Without "Alignments"
To start, almost any game that isn't D&D doesn't feature alignments (they are exceptions, but the point is not having alignment is the norm). It adds little to the game that simply defining your character's ideals or beliefs doesn't.
So the answer is that a good (or great) game doesn't need alignment. Many of us play games that don't mention it, or any similar system. I have occasionally played games with an honour system or something similar, but that easily gets complicated (does it measure how honourably you act, or how honourably you're perceived to act? I tend to go for the latter, but few games make it clear). There's also sanity systems, the merits of which we can discuss on their own.
That said, in 3.X you've got to work out how to replace alignment rules-wise if you're not using it. I think the simplest I've seen is that alignment is based on plane of origin, so Celestials ping as good, Demons ping as Chaotic and Evil, but every human pings as Neutral.
Alignment is also a useful tool for new players who are character building, but only if they 'get' alignment. In your case forgetting about it seems simple enough.
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2018-04-21, 07:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
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- Sweden
- Gender
Re: Can You Run A Game Without "Alignments"
PCs don't benefit from having alignments so you can skip all mortals having alignments.
Spells might benefit from having an "evil" or "good" tag, but you're better off replacing it with a faction system, instead of "smite evil" it's "smite member of opposing faction/supernatural entity forbidden by my faction".
Outsiders and cosmology can also be factions instead of alignments, factions can have ideologies.
Alignments are just a training wheel that quickly becomes an obstacle you have to work around.Black text is for sarcasm, also sincerity. You'll just have to read between the lines and infer from context like an animal
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2018-04-21, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
Re: Can You Run A Game Without "Alignments"
I strongly disagree with most of this, but will agree that alignments are a tool, and not every tool; whether they're a good tool or not depends on how you use them. Either way, they're not an indispensable tool, so you don't have to use them, and indeed, as pointed out, many RPG systems that aren't DnD or based off of DnD don't use them. If you want to dispose of them in a game system that does use them, you'll likely need to make some adjustments to other rules, but exactly what needs to be adjusted depends on the specific system, the setting, and your and your players intent/preferences.
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2018-04-21, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2016
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- SoCal
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2018-04-21, 12:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
Re: Can You Run A Game Without "Alignments"
Only use for alignment I've used is to make sure everyone is on the same page in terms of tone and characters do we don't have the cutthroat necromancer in the same party as the paladin...Again. If you feel this is a good use of alignment for you, I suggest simply stating that your game is a game of heroes/anti-heroes/anti-villains/villains and to be clear on the tone you want.
Also, if your setting has no universal cosmic forces of good, evil, law, chaos or whatever, then alignment makes no sense in your setting and feel free to ditch it. Mechanics based on that assume that this weird force exists, so it gets weird really fast if there is no 'good' to detect for instance.For all of your completely and utterly honest needs. Zaydos made, Tiefling approved.
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2018-04-21, 10:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
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- The Frozen North
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Re: Can You Run A Game Without "Alignments"
No, it is totally impossible. Even though you try to run the game without alignment, alignments still exists.
It's like saying you are going to run a game without good and evil, it can't be done. Morality will always exist in some shape and form and we all know and recognize alignment as the ultimate yardstick of morality.Optimizing vs Roleplay
If the worlds greatest optimizer makes a character and hands it to the worlds greatest roleplayer who roleplays the character. What will happen? Will the Universe implode?
Roleplaying vs Fun
If roleplaying is no fun then stop doing it. Unless of course you are roleplaying at gunpoint then you should roleplay like your life depended on it.
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2018-04-21, 11:57 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: Can You Run A Game Without "Alignments"
Extracting them from the mechanics of some editions of some games can take a bit of doing. There are certain extant published settings which would fall apart a bit without them (that you're clearly not using). Those two reasons form a pretty much comprehensive list of difficulties with running a game without alignment; it's not a necessary mechanic by any means.
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2018-04-22, 12:47 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2006
- Location
- NYC
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Re: Can You Run A Game Without "Alignments"
I've done it, so I suspect it's possible to do.
The set of overly-specific protection spells Protection from Evil / Good / Chaos / Law / Annoying Neutrals / Sea Gulls / Mondays becomes a single spell (Protect Person, which is like Charm Person except nicer for humanoids instead of worse). It protects against summoned enemy monsters of any type, and Outsiders of any type. It protects against mental control from any source. Etc.
Magic Circle applies to any Outsider / Elemental / etc.
I would suggest keeping [Evil] and [Good] as descriptors for Outsiders, and treating spellcasters who delve too far into spells with those tags to eventually get a descriptor. That's how you'd get a good Necromancer who pings as [Evil]. Conversely, if you use unaligned spells to do horrible things, you might get a wicked Enchanter who does not ping as [Evil].I want you to PEACH me as hard as you can.
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2018-04-22, 01:02 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2006
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- Wandering in Harrekh
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Re: Can You Run A Game Without "Alignments"
It gets slightly tricky if the character in question gets his power from another entity. Something like a 3.5 Cleric, if the fluff is that they're asking their deity for power, it would make some amount of sense for the deity to care how that power is going to be used. In 3.5, they handle that in kind of a shorthand, in that Clerics can't be more than one step in alignment away from the deity, and can't grossly violate the deity's priorities. If you remove alignment altogether, you've removed the shorthand. The result would probably be pretty close to the same, but it would be more individualized to the deity rather than to the alignment. Obad-Hai will keep providing the spells as long as the Cleric doesn't start regularly burning down forests.
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2018-04-22, 01:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2014
- Location
- Denmark
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Re: Can You Run A Game Without "Alignments"
It's all I ever do. Alignments are a hindrance at best, and a bad excuse at worst.
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2018-04-22, 06:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2018
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- Philippines
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Re: Can You Run A Game Without "Alignments"
Thank you everyone, I've already made a post in Homebrew called [Soulfinder] Changes which addresses the changes I've made so far. It essentially sums up the issues I have that me and my players are trying to solve.
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2018-04-22, 05:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2013
Re: Can You Run A Game Without "Alignments"
more like can you run a game WITH alignments, amirite?
May I borrow some bat guano? It's for a spell...
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2018-04-22, 08:03 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2013
Re: Can You Run A Game Without "Alignments"
You can, but be prepared to deal with players who want to play murdering thieving psychopaths. They would have anyway saying their character is Chaotic Neutral to give themselves license to do what they want and not have to deal with the stigma of an E on their character sheet, but without alignments they are freed from any supposed restrictions on behavior. It's cynical, but it's true. They won't necessarily disrupt the game, but campaign plot goals are an afterthought.
This is not universally true of every player. I only mean keep a look out for these type of players and have a way to deal with it. They'll want to grab anything they think is treasure and betray NPCs they're supposed to help. Gygax help you if they have a bag of holding.
Why yes I do have one of those fellow players in a game I'm currently in. Why do you ask?
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2018-04-22, 08:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2017
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2018-04-22, 11:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2013
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2018-04-23, 01:02 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: Can You Run A Game Without "Alignments"
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.
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2018-04-23, 01:12 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2010
Re: Can You Run A Game Without "Alignments"
D&D-style murderhoboing is not restricted by alignment.
Buwhah? You're saying that without writing 'I do whatever I want' on the sheet, they'll do whatever they want?
Have you really never played a game without D&D alignments? It's not like there's any shortage of them.
Ohhhh yeah. The ever-popular (with themselves and nobody else) Just Playing My Character jerk. "But I wrote 'Evil' on my character sheet, I had to set the orphanage on fire!"Last edited by Arbane; 2018-04-23 at 01:14 AM.
Imagine if all real-world conversations were like internet D&D conversations...
Protip: DnD is an incredibly social game played by some of the most socially inept people on the planet - Lev
I read this somewhere and I stick to it: "I would rather play a bad system with my friends than a great system with nobody". - Trevlac
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2018-04-23, 01:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
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- Norway
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Re: Can You Run A Game Without "Alignments"
I dunno why people think alignments are such a difficult sell.
Just ask your players if they consider personal liberty or a lawful society are better, and if they'd be willing to give up their own for others or if they only look out for number one.
If they consider anything in between or neither, they are neutral.
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2018-04-23, 02:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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- Southern Germany
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2018-04-23, 02:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2018
Re: Can You Run A Game Without "Alignments"
Does it, though?
Alignment, in the meaning being used by D&D, is a position of agreement or alliance. "Alignment," in that sense, when it comes to the cosmic morality forms, is not, in fact, necessary. Who's to say that my idea of "good" matches up with some super LG angel's, after all?
It's like saying you are going to run a game without good and evil, it can't be done. Morality will always exist in some shape and form and we all know and recognize alignment as the ultimate yardstick of morality.
In other words, Alignment only really works when either everyone at the table subscribes to the exact same set of values and likes the idea that those sets of values are objectively true with no ambiguity at all, or you want to roll with the idea that cosmic-level Good and Evil are entirely divorced from human ideas, and essentially boil down to the color of your laser beams, rather than any actually reasonable ethical system.
To the OP: As everyone else said, you can but it takes work. The simplest solution I've found is that alignment is simply the color of your laser beams, so people who aren't hooked into some cosmic force, that is clerics or outsiders mostly, register as neutral for alignment-based effects, but cutting out every alignment-based spell and effect works just as well. That said, doing it either way is a vastly superior option, IMO, to leaving alignment in, for obvious reasons.
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2018-04-23, 02:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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- Southern Germany
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2018-04-23, 05:39 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
- Location
- Norway
- Gender
Re: Can You Run A Game Without "Alignments"
Hot take, alignments are descriptive, not prescriptive. They don't inform you on how your character will act, but how he might act. If you use them any other way, they immediately became straight-jackets that enforce a certain way of roleplaying.
Then again, if you ask me, I don't have much a problem with alignments, but I have a huge pet peevee with alignment restrictions, such as bards and barbarians must be non-lawful or monks must always remain lawful. They should perhaps be the ideal of the class, but I don't like tying class abilities to behavior of character.
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2018-04-23, 07:47 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2010
- Location
- Bamako
Re: Can You Run A Game Without "Alignments"
That can be handled with codes of conduct in case the source of power/abilities truly requires it. A code of conduct can moreover be much more interesting to play to and better targeted fluff-wise than generic alignment.
Eg a monk might need to follow certain life regimen in order to access his Qi. So his code might include thing that you wouldn't find under Good, Evil, Law or Chaos, like avoiding alcohol and meat, regular meditation, etc.
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2018-04-23, 08:00 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2013
Re: Can You Run A Game Without "Alignments"
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2018-04-23, 09:09 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2008
Re: Can You Run A Game Without "Alignments"
Maybe this applies to stripping alignments out of a game that has them, but that implicit permission definitely doesn't exist in the context of alignment just not being there. Even in the excision case I haven't seen this - the common reading seems to be that alignment is getting pulled at least partially because the game will focus more on nuanced conflicts and less on the simple adventure that black and white morality facilitates, which tends to get in the way of violent caricature PCs.
I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.
I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that. -- ChubbyRain
Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.