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Thread: Shadow Sorcerer

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    Halfling in the Playground
     
    DruidGirl

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    Default Shadow Sorcerer

    Hey guys,

    So my friends and I will be starting a new campaign. We are starting at level 6 and I was looking at the Sorcerer class. I usually don't even consider the sorcerer but I wanted to be a spellcaster and the new Shadow Magic from Xanathars looks pretty good, why not give it a whirl. Now, considering the Sorcerers lack of spells I wanted to discuss the choices with you guys, maybe your input can stop me from making a mistakes that will bite me in my bum.

    Some backstory:

    My character is a fey spirit trapped in the body of a 8 year old boy. He wants to leave the boys body but it will require some kind of ritual (my DM can figure this out). If the body of the boy dies, the spirit also dies. The spirit is the one in control of the body, and he has some of his fey shadowy powers.

    My choices so far:

    Considering that the Class gives you an excellent option for darkvision and I wanted to fix the lack of spells I went for human (Variant) as race. This allows me to start with 16 dex and 18 char (including the ASI from lvl 4) and a feat. For the feat I chose Magic Initiate (Wizard). This give me the excellent Mage Armor once a day (it lasts 8hours so should be ok) and gives me access to the best damage cantrip Toll the Dead. This gives me an acceptable AC of 16 without using spell slots. It also allows me to Quicken Toll the Dead for 2x2d10 damage on a Wisdom saving throw for 1 sorcery point. This combined with the hound giving the target disadvantage on the save should give me some reliable damage output.

    The Spells

    From Magic Initiate:
    Toll the Dead (I think this is the best DPS cantrip around? For non warlocks atleast)
    Shocking Grasp (If I get stuck in Melee, this can help me escape by removing my opponents reaction)
    Mage Armor (the spell gives me much needed 16AC so Im not a squishy squish)


    From being a Sorcerer
    Friends (the high charisma and proficiency in Persuasion and Deception should make the child valuable in conversations. Who can deny a innocent child his needs? Nobody when friends is cast upon them)
    Mage Hand (I just love this versatile spell, it allows me to do cool stuff out of combat, I do have my doubts about this one though. Maybe I should swap it?)
    Message (I think message has proven its worth?)
    Minor Illusion (Another great spell that is very versatile, not having allot of spells requires me to be as versatile as I can)
    Prestidigation (I just don't like being dirty)

    Shield (Even though darkness and 16AC is a good start at defense, I don't think its enough. Shield can get me out of some difficult situations. I believe its the most important defense spell I can get combined with mage armor.)
    Fireball (a reliable spell for AOE damage, can even be quickened to combine with Toll the Dead).
    Darkness (have the ability to see through the darkness spell for only 2sorcery points makes it a very good offensive and deffensive tool. I am thinking about casting it on small coints and throwing them on the floor. This gives me advantage on all attacks and gives my attackers disadvantage when they are trying to hit me. This with my mage armor should keep me fairly save right?)
    Silent Image (SOOO versatile, sure you have no sound, but you can do soooo much fun stuff with this spell).
    Fly (Another spell that can be used out of combat, but also one that has potential to be a great defense spell)
    Haste (Twincast on the ranger and monk in our group to really bring the pain, its a really good spell but this is one of the spells that Im not sure if I should pick this. Maybe it's not versatile enough?)
    Hold Person (Another spell im not really sure about, I might not even come across a single humanoid or I might come across many. At this time I do not know. I feel its great combined with the hound though.)

    That gives me one more lvl 1 or lvl 2 spell to choose. I don't think there are many spells that can out damage Toll the Dead of Fireball so I might need something versatile or something defensive.

    I would love to hear your thoughts. Thank you guys.

    **edit layout
    Last edited by ShirAhn; 2018-04-23 at 12:20 PM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: Shadow Sorcerer

    A couple of points you need to be aware of:

    - Quickened spell always costs 2 Sorcery Points. Twinned Spell is the one that costs 1 Point per level (or 1 for a cantrip)

    - Magic Initiate spells always use the ability modifier of the class they are taken from, so if you take Toll the Dead and Shocking Grasp, the spell attack and spell DC would be based on your Intelligence, not your Charisma. Perhaps it would be worth taking some utility spells here as the ability modifier will have no effect.

    - If you have another spell to take, Suggestion could work. It's a fantastic spell.

    My biggest suggestion for spell choice would be to take spells that you think make sense for the character to have.

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    Stranger in the Playground Retired Moderator Ventruenox's Avatar
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    Default Re: Shadow Sorcerer

    If you are going to be a Charisma based caster, use your Magic Initiate feat for cantrips that do not require a spell attack roll or have a DC. Intelligence should not be one of your top stats for a Sorcerer. Selecting utility cantrips from the Wizard list will serve you much better, and pick those combat cantrips from your primary class.

    Edit: Shadow-monked
    Last edited by Ventruenox; 2018-04-23 at 12:31 PM.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Shadow Sorcerer

    I like that backstory I've been thinking of something of a similar line to that recently. Onto the topic, I think you should get disguise self since it works really well with the friends cantrip. Also, subtle metamagic is not only thematic but allows you to charm people without them knowing that you have cast a spell. It is pretty funny for a surprise fireball and buffing mid-conversation without anybody knowing. I like the idea of pretending as if you are an innocent bystander afraid for his/her life after going crazy with illusions and fireballs with the subtle spell.

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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Shadow Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord8Ball View Post
    I like that backstory I've been thinking of something of a similar line to that recently. Onto the topic, I think you should get disguise self since it works really well with the friends cantrip. Also, subtle metamagic is not only thematic but allows you to charm people without them knowing that you have cast a spell. It is pretty funny for a surprise fireball and buffing mid-conversation without anybody knowing. I like the idea of pretending as if you are an innocent bystander afraid for his/her life after going crazy with illusions and fireballs with the subtle spell.
    I agree that subtle is really fun, however considering how massively gimped the sorcerer is I feel that I NEED quick and twincast to be sorta competitive. I know it shouldn't be a priority when creating characters but I always want to be sort of decent in combat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Avonar View Post
    A couple of points you need to be aware of:


    - Quickened spell always costs 2 Sorcery Points. Twinned Spell is the one that costs 1 Point per level (or 1 for a cantrip)

    - Magic Initiate spells always use the ability modifier of the class they are taken from, so if you take Toll the Dead and Shocking Grasp, the spell attack and spell DC would be based on your Intelligence, not your Charisma. Perhaps it would be worth taking some utility spells here as the ability modifier will have no effect.

    - If you have another spell to take, Suggestion could work. It's a fantastic spell.

    My biggest suggestion for spell choice would be to take spells that you think make sense for the character to have.
    I just checked:

    Quickened Spell
    When you Cast a Spell that has a Casting Time of 1 action, you can spend 2 sorcery points to change the Casting Time to 1 Bonus Action for this casting.

    So, 4d12 for a action + bonusaction and 2 sorceries points indeed.

    This is really good feedback, thank you. I could go for magic iniative Warlock so I can still get toll the dead with my charisma modifier. Then I can still get Mage Armor from my normal list and get one spell from the warlock list for magic initiate. Maybe Witch Bolt?? Cause Fear?
    Last edited by ShirAhn; 2018-04-23 at 01:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Shadow Sorcerer

    I'd consider Shadow Blade from XGtE as a 2nd level spell. Combined with your ability to see in your magical darkness, it'll give you advantage on an attack roll for 2d8 damage every turn, and all of your foes will have disadvantage as they flail around, trying to work out where you are!
    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by ShirAhn View Post
    This is really good feedback, thank you. I could go for magic iniative Warlock so I can still get toll the dead with my charisma modifier. Then I can still get Mage Armor from my normal list and get one spell from the warlock list for magic initiate. Maybe Witch Bolt?? Cause Fear?
    Witch Bolt is a decent spell a 1st and 2nd level but scales pretty badly, Cause Fear is a fun spell that would be pretty thematic for your character too. Hope this helps!
    Last edited by Balthasaurus; 2018-04-23 at 12:44 PM.

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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Shadow Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by Balthasaurus View Post
    I'd consider Shadow Blade from XGtE as a 2nd level spell. Combined with your ability to see in your magical darkness, it'll give you advantage on an attack roll for 2d8 damage every turn, and all of your foes will have disadvantage as they flail around, trying to work out where you are!
    Edit:


    Witch Bolt is a decent spell a 1st and 2nd level but scales pretty badly, Cause Fear is a fun spell that would be pretty thematic for your character too. Hope this helps!
    Shadow Blade is really thematic, but I can't really make room for it. 2d8 (+3) in melee is really not a position I want to be in. I feel that fire bolt or Toll the Dead would be a better/saver pick.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Shadow Sorcerer

    Shadow Blade also costs Concentration, meaning that you can’t use it and your Darkness together.
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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Shadow Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by Avonar View Post
    A couple of points you need to be aware of:

    - Magic Initiate spells always use the ability modifier of the class they are taken from, so if you take Toll the Dead and Shocking Grasp, the spell attack and spell DC would be based on your Intelligence, not your Charisma. Perhaps it would be worth taking some utility spells here as the ability modifier will have no effect.
    Another possibility would be to take Magic Initiate (sorcerer) rather than Magic Initiate (wizard). It is perfectly legal to take magic initiate for your own class. For most classes this would be a poor choice, but because sorcerers have such a limited number of spells known it is actually a good one. That way any spell attack or spell DC roll is still based on Charisma.

    Unfortunately, Toll the Dead is not a sorcerer spell, so you would have to make another choice. Mage Armor and Shocking Grasp would still work.

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    Default Re: Shadow Sorcerer

    Mage Armor is on your Sorcerer's spell list, so take that.

    Take Magic Initiate (Warlock)
    • Take Eldritch blast; purported to be the best cantrip in the game, 1d10 force damage, as you advance in CHARACTER levels you get more bolts, which you can divide up how you see fit, eventually getting 4 bolts
    • Take one of choices of Cantrip
    • Take Armor of Agathys lasts 1 hour, and no concentration needed
      • or if you have access to UA spells, possibly Healing Elixir (starter spells)


    You can cast Eldritch blast and then quicken your Eldritch blast with 2 SP.

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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Shadow Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by Ogre Mage View Post
    Another possibility would be to take Magic Initiate (sorcerer) rather than Magic Initiate (wizard). It is perfectly legal to take magic initiate for your own class. For most classes this would be a poor choice, but because sorcerers have such a limited number of spells known it is actually a good one. That way any spell attack or spell DC roll is still based on Charisma.

    Unfortunately, Toll the Dead is not a sorcerer spell, so you would have to make another choice. Mage Armor and Shocking Grasp would still work.
    I could pick Warlock to get Toll the Dead. But that wouldn't allow me to get Mage Armor as the Magic Initiate which seems inefficient. I guess I could just use Chromatic Orb as my go to damage spell. The damage just seems sooo low even casted at lvl 3.

    Compare:

    A Fighter at lvl 6 with +4strenght doing 2 standard attacks with his greatsword. 2x((2d6x2)+8) = 22
    A Rogue at lvl 6 with +4 dex doing 1 sneak attack with his Rapier 1x(1d8+4+(3d6)) = 19 (or with another bonus attack adds another 1d6 to a total of 22,5)
    A Monk at lvl 6 with +4 dex doing 2 attacks with a quarterstaff (2handed) and one Bonus attack from unarmed strike (2x(1d8+4)) + (1x 1d6+4)) = 24.5

    Now Chromatic Orb at lvl 1 = 1x3d8 with a total of 13.5
    Casting Chromatic Orb at lvl 3 adds 2d8 for a total of 22.5

    Is there a spell I am missing that is more reliable?

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Shadow Sorcerer

    Were I you, I'd do it differently. I would:
    -Drop V Human and go Half Elf. You get great Charisma boosts, the two other +1's, 2 skills, 3 languages and advantage against sleep/being charmed. Shadow Sorc already gives you Dark Vision, so that's less relevant. If you don't want the two skills, you can swap them out for drow half elf variant. That nets you drow magic, which is pretty good for your character. Darkness... Faerie Fire... Dancing Lights...
    -You no longer have the feat that gets you Magic Initiate. Put 1 to 2 of your 6 levels into a Hexblade Warlock. I personally would go 2 so that I got access to Invocations, but only going 1 leaves you 5 levels in Sorceror and thus gets you access to level 3 spells. By going this route, you get a spellcaster who also uses charisma. You get eldritch blast WITH the invocations to buff it (which is why it's considered the best damage cantrip in the game). You ameliorate the paucity of spells a sorceror gets and you get spell slots that recharge on a short rest. You also get the Hexblade melee skills set (m armour, shield and weapons). Lastly you get the Hexblade Curse. Oh... and a d8 hit dice for the 1 to 2 levels you do put into hexblade.

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    Default Re: Shadow Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by GorogIrongut View Post
    Were I you, I'd do it differently. I would:
    -Drop V Human and go Half Elf. You get great Charisma boosts, the two other +1's, 2 skills, 3 languages and advantage against sleep/being charmed. Shadow Sorc already gives you Dark Vision, so that's less relevant. If you don't want the two skills, you can swap them out for drow half elf variant. That nets you drow magic, which is pretty good for your character. Darkness... Faerie Fire... Dancing Lights...
    -You no longer have the feat that gets you Magic Initiate. Put 1 to 2 of your 6 levels into a Hexblade Warlock. I personally would go 2 so that I got access to Invocations, but only going 1 leaves you 5 levels in Sorceror and thus gets you access to level 3 spells. By going this route, you get a spellcaster who also uses charisma. You get eldritch blast WITH the invocations to buff it (which is why it's considered the best damage cantrip in the game). You ameliorate the paucity of spells a sorceror gets and you get spell slots that recharge on a short rest. You also get the Hexblade melee skills set (m armour, shield and weapons). Lastly you get the Hexblade Curse. Oh... and a d8 hit dice for the 1 to 2 levels you do put into hexblade.
    I understand your input, its really great advice. The reason why I probably won't go with this is that it takes months for us to gain one level. And I really wanna get that Polymorph twincast going (lvl 4 spell).

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShirAhn View Post
    I understand your input, its really great advice. The reason why I probably won't go with this is that it takes months for us to gain one level. And I really wanna get that Polymorph twincast going (lvl 4 spell).
    I can appreciate this point of view... but I disagree with it. One of the hardest things to understand about playing a sorceror is that you are ultimately flexible, but at a great cost. You've provided a few examples of this already in this thread. Quickening Toll the Dead... Twinned Polymorph.
    Sorcery points are your bread and butter. Other casters would kill to have them. But they are finite. When you twin Polymorph, you're expending 4 out of your 7 total sorcery points for one spell. You essentially get to do it once per Long Rest unless you start cannibalizing spell slots. If you keep doing this, you essentially get off a few kick butt spells and have to spend the rest of your time throwing cantrips. The cannibal approach I find suffers from the Law of Diminishing Returns in all but a few, very specialized circumstances. Treasure your Sorcery Points and use them when they will net you the greatest reward.

    The same goes for a quickened Toll the Dead. 2 Sorcery points that you burn through for a potentially extra cantrip... Why not just twin it at the cost of 1 SP?

    When using Metamagic you get a few moments when you can feel particularly epic. But then the gas tank is empty. In my experience, it's the smaller uses over the long run that net you the most advantage. Moments like using Subtle to cast a Fireball on an opposing caster so they can't counterspell it. Or using Empower on a Fireball so that you really roast your targets. You get to do either of those 4 times for every twinned Polymorph (while still being able to cast an untwinned Polymorph).

    That's not to say that Quickened or Twinned are bad. They both can be spectacularly good. What it does demonstrate is the conundrum of being a Sorceror. You have limited spells. You have limited Sorcery Points. You have to identify the most multi use spells and metamagics so as to get the most bang for your buck as well as being able to respond in the widest range of encounters. Sorceror is considered to be the hardest class to play because of this very conundrum (and is often considered the worst base class because so few master the conundrum).

    If I had advice to give, I'd say that you should pick your spells around your metamagics, trying to minimize your SP expenditures (this can change past level 10 where you're a little more flexible). Subtle > Empower > Twinned (been nuked a bit by Sage Advice Rulings) > Everything else > Careful (neutered by Sage Advice rulings & Extended (which is really only good if you're a Divine Soul and want to make your Spirit Guardians fricking insane).

    The fun part is that you'll also end up picking your metamagics around your spells. Say you really LOVE Silent Image or Suggestion. Both of those spells become phenominally effective when used with the Subtle Metamagic. Do you love fire? Do you want to hurl a handful of dice? Then Empower is your friend. This makes you a bit of a blaster. You've already identified that Polymorph, Haste go great with Twinned. There are others that are just as good for this metamagic. The problem is that it costs to use. At a low level, where by your own admission you're going to be for a long term considering how long it takes you to level... this could be a problem.

    There was another player on here that advised player to think long and hard about the role they wanted their sorceror to fill. That you could be a blaster, support or sociopathic caster. That the sorcerors who tried to be everything were the ones who failed. You could be an epic sociopath, an okay support caster at the expense of being a horrible blaster caster. Or any of the other permutations. To try and do to many things at once invited failure.

    I agree with this player wholeheartedly.

    As such, following this second round of comments I'll retweak my advice.
    You would be best served by dropping the V human and going Half Drow Elf. You get better everything except the feat. In the place of the feat you get Drow Magic which synergizes with your character idea and Shadow Sorceror.
    Drow Magic: You know the dancing lights cantrip. When you reach 3rd level, you can cast faerie fire once, and it recharges after a long rest. When you reach 5th level, you can cast darkness once, and it recharges after a long rest. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for these spells.

    I would advice 1 level in Hexblade as it gives you so much (while still giving you +1 SP and Fireball), but I understand if you have your heart set on Twinned Polymorph even though I've expressed my concerns up above.

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    Default Re: Shadow Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by ShirAhn View Post
    <snip>
    A Fighter at lvl 6 with +4strenght doing 2 standard attacks with his greatsword. 2x((2d6x2)+8) = 22
    A Rogue at lvl 6 with +4 dex doing 1 sneak attack with his Rapier 1x(1d8+4+(3d6)) = 19 (or with another bonus attack adds another 1d6 to a total of 22,5)
    A Monk at lvl 6 with +4 dex doing 2 attacks with a quarterstaff (2handed) and one Bonus attack from unarmed strike (2x(1d8+4)) + (1x 1d6+4)) = 24.5
    It seems to me that you don't want to play a sorcerer, unless it does big damage.

    You have access to 3rd level spells, you can have fireball, dragon's breath (2nd level) (which you could twin and share) , you can even twin HASTE at level 6, you can do damage at ranged, the 3 examples you gave all have to be in melee to do their damage, you don't, you can think tactically.


    If you took Sorcerer and ritual caster/magical initiate and get Find familiar,
    Cast Dragons breath and twining it on you and your Owl familiar now allows your familiar to do a 15' breath weapon action for 3d6 <choose, acid, cold, fire, lightning, or poison> Dex save for half. and cus twinned you can too. every round until conc ends upto a minute.



    You can then look at bonus action spells, may be quicked another spell whilst you breath.

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    Default Re: Shadow Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by ShirAhn View Post
    I could pick Warlock to get Toll the Dead. But that wouldn't allow me to get Mage Armor as the Magic Initiate which seems inefficient. I guess I could just use Chromatic Orb as my go to damage spell. The damage just seems sooo low even casted at lvl 3.

    Compare:

    A Fighter at lvl 6 with +4strenght doing 2 standard attacks with his greatsword. 2x((2d6x2)+8) = 22
    A Rogue at lvl 6 with +4 dex doing 1 sneak attack with his Rapier 1x(1d8+4+(3d6)) = 19 (or with another bonus attack adds another 1d6 to a total of 22,5)
    A Monk at lvl 6 with +4 dex doing 2 attacks with a quarterstaff (2handed) and one Bonus attack from unarmed strike (2x(1d8+4)) + (1x 1d6+4)) = 24.5

    Now Chromatic Orb at lvl 1 = 1x3d8 with a total of 13.5
    Casting Chromatic Orb at lvl 3 adds 2d8 for a total of 22.5

    Is there a spell I am missing that is more reliable?
    You will never match the martials on single turn DPR on any combat that lasts longer than a few rounds, unless you specialize in cantrip damage. Lots of sorcerers expect to crap out damage like it's tuesday, and that's simply not their thing.

    Toll the dead is thematic for your character and is reasonably strong, but it's not crazy. Chromatic Orb is actuallly pretty bad, since it does nothing on a failed attack roll, and your cantrips will pass it by around level 5.

    Here's my advice:
    -your main class feature is metamagic. Your spell selection needs to play into your metamagic choices.
    -dog is effectively heighten, and it's very expensive. Don't use it until mid/high levels, unless it's a very important save.
    -go for twin or quicken, but not both. They are both expensive, and if you take advantage of either your darkness or your dog, you'll always be running out of points.
    -consider subtle metamagic. Very powerful for socially manipulative spells depending on how closely your DM watches VSM components. Walk into a room and subtly cast confusion around yourself. As I like to call it: "Making a distraction."
    -twinning spells like dragon's breath,haste, polymorph, etc. is the best use of the ability, although twinning a cantrip is a cheap way to deal good damage. (At 5th level, a twinned toll the dead can deal 4d12 = 26 damage for the cost of a first level spell.) That said, you don't want to make your list too full of concentration spells, and you'll only be twinning a buff 1-2 times a day, so be wary of overdoing it with this option. Be sure to keep swapping out your lower-level twinnable buffs as you level. Use twin on your lower level spells for great efficiency. Twin Metamagic is about buffing. Twinning a debuff or damage spell is generally a huge waste unless its a cantrip.
    -Quicken is all about comboing with spells that give you an action. So you cast dragon's breath, and then next turn after breathing fire you can also throw a fireball at the bad guy if you have to.
    -LOWER YOUR NUMBER OF CONCENTRATION SPELLS
    -I always recommend that sorcerer's dip one level in warlock(hexblade), bard, or cleric. This massively increases your spell list, and lets you have a little bit of utility in your lower level spells.
    -if you're stuck in melee, you can also use darkness to disengage. That said, Shocking grasp is cool
    -you should have seven spells known and you only have six. Darkness is free.

    My build:


    Magic Intitate:Warlock(toll the dead, Shocking grasp, silent image) -- everything is off of charisma now, and you probably don't need to use silent image more than once a day.

    same cantrips

    Metamagic: Twin, empower/subtle (depending on your interest)

    1st : Shield, Mage Armor, (survivability toolkit) disguise self
    2nd : Dragon's Breath (awesome aoe damage, twinnable. Run into range, blast two folks, run back into darkness), Darkness (free, turn a slot into SP to cast it using your class feature.) Suggestion/Shatter (depending on the metamagic you took)
    3rd : fireball (duh), Fly(solid), Haste (twinnable gold)

    I'd highly recomend a level of hexblade or cleric. T'will make your spell selection sicknasty.
    Last edited by strangebloke; 2018-04-24 at 03:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Shadow Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    -twinning spells like dragon's breath,haste, polymorph, etc. is the best use of the ability, although twinning a cantrip is a cheap way to deal good damage. (At 5th level, a twinned toll the dead can deal 4d12 = 26 damage for the cost of a first level spell.)
    Wizards of the Coast released a page worth of changes to their Player's Handbook for Fifth Edition, wherein Twinned Spell was clarified such that a spell -must- only be able to affect one creature to be eligible. Before, the spell merely had to target one creature when cast. So things like Eldritch Blast, Scorching Ray, and a host of other great offensive spells went up in smoke. It hit the metamagic hard.

    Dragon's Breath can affect more than one target and thus can't be twinned.

    Without those changes, the real power play would be a twinned fireball.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GorogIrongut View Post
    Wizards of the Coast released a page worth of changes to their Player's Handbook for Fifth Edition, wherein Twinned Spell was clarified such that a spell -must- only be able to affect one creature to be eligible. Before, the spell merely had to target one creature when cast. So things like Eldritch Blast, Scorching Ray, and a host of other great offensive spells went up in smoke. It hit the metamagic hard.

    Dragon's Breath can affect more than one target and thus can't be twinned.

    Without those changes, the real power play would be a twinned fireball.
    You're wrong twice, matey.

    A short history of the Twin metamagic:
    1. PHB: Twin works on all spells that target creatures or things. (but not spells that target an area, like fireball)
    2. Errata: Twin work on all spells "incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level." (but dragon's breath only targets one person, the person buffed)
    3. JC: When asked, JC states that the dragon's breath should not be twinnable, because the effect of the buff hits multiple people, but this is not official errata, and is not consistent with RAW, or JC's previous tweets.

    Most people don't read JC's twitter, and in this case that's a good thing because he's just wrong here, unless you take his comment as RAI. (which it was not intended as) So you can do this at most tables.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    You're wrong twice, matey.

    A short history of the Twin metamagic:
    1. PHB: Twin works on all spells that target creatures or things. (but not spells that target an area, like fireball) Technically it just has to affect one target. You can cast a fireball on a single dragon and have it comply with the aforementioned strictures. That said, I'm dropping it as I have no desire to be pedantic.
    2. Errata: Twin work on all spells "incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level." (but dragon's breath only targets one person, the person buffed)
    3. JC: When asked, JC states that the dragon's breath should not be twinnable, because the effect of the buff hits multiple people, but this is not official errata, and is not consistent with RAW, or JC's previous tweets.

    Most people don't read JC's twitter, and in this case that's a good thing because he's just wrong here, unless you take his comment as RAI. (which it was not intended as) So you can do this at most tables.
    Interesting. Not to belabor, but there is a little wiggle room there. Instead of being self, it says the range is Touch, so it's not automatically excluded. That said, I remember reading a set of tweets discussing something similar, i.e. with GFB. Where the main target is affected but a secondary target can occur. And how this obviated the ability to twin it, even if there was no secondary target for the 'splash' damage.

    I'll admit there's more wiggle room than I'd previously thought, but as a DM I still wouldn't let it happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GorogIrongut View Post
    Interesting. Not to belabor, but there is a little wiggle room there. Instead of being self, it says the range is Touch, so it's not automatically excluded. That said, I remember reading a set of tweets discussing something similar, i.e. with GFB. Where the main target is affected but a secondary target can occur. And how this obviated the ability to twin it, even if there was no secondary target for the 'splash' damage.

    I'll admit there's more wiggle room than I'd previously thought, but as a DM I still wouldn't let it happen.
    Why not? Worried about it breaking your game?

    Twinned dragon's breath costs the same as a fourth level spell. The combo is hardly overpowered.

    If you wouldn't allow twinned Dragon's Breath, what about twinned Polymorph. They're both single-target buffs that allow the buffed target to target more than one target.

    GFB is also stated to not work, according to JC, since there's a secondary target effected, even though the secondary target is a target of the spell effect, not a target of the spell itself... I'm being pedantic, but that's literally how spells work. This is a little bit more debatable by RAW.

    People just don't want sorcerer to have nice things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    Why not? Worried about it breaking your game?

    Twinned dragon's breath costs the same as a fourth level spell. The combo is hardly overpowered.

    If you wouldn't allow twinned Dragon's Breath, what about twinned Polymorph. They're both single-target buffs that allow the buffed target to target more than one target. *shakes head*

    GFB is also stated to not work, according to JC, since there's a secondary target effected, even though the secondary target is a target of the spell effect, not a target of the spell itself... I'm being pedantic, but that's literally how spells work. This is a little bit more debatable by RAW.

    People just don't want sorcerer to have nice things.
    It's not that I don't want sorceror's to have nice things. I love sorcerors and actually think they're stronger than a wizard... I just like to follow the rules as stated, even annoying tweets. The irony is, that I won't correct a DM for Gish shield use/casting mechanics... cause I consider those to be the stupidest thing ever. That said, of late, I've just decided to use a GW and avoid the whole debate.

    And now I'm going to stop talking as it's sidelining the original intent of the thread.

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    Default Re: Shadow Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon's Breath
    2nd-level transmutation

    Casting Time: 1 bonus action


    Range: Touch


    Components: V, S, M (a hot pepper)


    Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute


    You touch one willing creature and imbue it with the power to spew magical energy from its mouth, provided it has one. Choose acid, cold, fire, lightning, or poison. Until the spell ends, the creature can use an action to exhale energy of the chosen type in a 15-foot cone. Each creature in that area must make a Dexterity saving throw, taking 3d6 damage of the chosen type on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
    The spell targets one touched person, so Twinable.
    So you can touch 2 people. you concentrate on the spell, they can go breathe on things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GorogIrongut View Post
    I can appreciate this point of view... but I disagree with it. One of the hardest things to understand about playing a sorceror is that you are ultimately flexible, but at a great cost. You've provided a few examples of this already in this thread. Quickening Toll the Dead... Twinned Polymorph.
    Sorcery points are your bread and butter. Other casters would kill to have them. But they are finite. When you twin Polymorph, you're expending 4 out of your 7 total sorcery points for one spell. You essentially get to do it once per Long Rest unless you start cannibalizing spell slots. If you keep doing this, you essentially get off a few kick butt spells and have to spend the rest of your time throwing cantrips. The cannibal approach I find suffers from the Law of Diminishing Returns in all but a few, very specialized circumstances. Treasure your Sorcery Points and use them when they will net you the greatest reward.

    The same goes for a quickened Toll the Dead. 2 Sorcery points that you burn through for a potentially extra cantrip... Why not just twin it at the cost of 1 SP?

    When using Metamagic you get a few moments when you can feel particularly epic. But then the gas tank is empty. In my experience, it's the smaller uses over the long run that net you the most advantage. Moments like using Subtle to cast a Fireball on an opposing caster so they can't counterspell it. Or using Empower on a Fireball so that you really roast your targets. You get to do either of those 4 times for every twinned Polymorph (while still being able to cast an untwinned Polymorph).

    That's not to say that Quickened or Twinned are bad. They both can be spectacularly good. What it does demonstrate is the conundrum of being a Sorceror. You have limited spells. You have limited Sorcery Points. You have to identify the most multi use spells and metamagics so as to get the most bang for your buck as well as being able to respond in the widest range of encounters. Sorceror is considered to be the hardest class to play because of this very conundrum (and is often considered the worst base class because so few master the conundrum).

    If I had advice to give, I'd say that you should pick your spells around your metamagics, trying to minimize your SP expenditures (this can change past level 10 where you're a little more flexible). Subtle > Empower > Twinned (been nuked a bit by Sage Advice Rulings) > Everything else > Careful (neutered by Sage Advice rulings & Extended (which is really only good if you're a Divine Soul and want to make your Spirit Guardians fricking insane).

    The fun part is that you'll also end up picking your metamagics around your spells. Say you really LOVE Silent Image or Suggestion. Both of those spells become phenominally effective when used with the Subtle Metamagic. Do you love fire? Do you want to hurl a handful of dice? Then Empower is your friend. This makes you a bit of a blaster. You've already identified that Polymorph, Haste go great with Twinned. There are others that are just as good for this metamagic. The problem is that it costs to use. At a low level, where by your own admission you're going to be for a long term considering how long it takes you to level... this could be a problem.

    There was another player on here that advised player to think long and hard about the role they wanted their sorceror to fill. That you could be a blaster, support or sociopathic caster. That the sorcerors who tried to be everything were the ones who failed. You could be an epic sociopath, an okay support caster at the expense of being a horrible blaster caster. Or any of the other permutations. To try and do to many things at once invited failure.

    I agree with this player wholeheartedly.

    As such, following this second round of comments I'll retweak my advice.
    You would be best served by dropping the V human and going Half Drow Elf. You get better everything except the feat. In the place of the feat you get Drow Magic which synergizes with your character idea and Shadow Sorceror.
    Drow Magic: You know the dancing lights cantrip. When you reach 3rd level, you can cast faerie fire once, and it recharges after a long rest. When you reach 5th level, you can cast darkness once, and it recharges after a long rest. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for these spells.

    I would advice 1 level in Hexblade as it gives you so much (while still giving you +1 SP and Fireball), but I understand if you have your heart set on Twinned Polymorph even though I've expressed my concerns up above.
    Thank you so much for your clear and respectful reply. After reading your story and doing a little more research I think that Subtle and Empower are the best choices for me. I have my doubts about the Half Drow race though. Yes half-elf gives a bit more stats/skills. However I can still get 16CHA, 16DEX and 14CON with my human(VAR) and still get MageArmor. I would rather have mage armor than fearie fire I think.

    One Question about subtle though, I know it can be used to cast spells without people know it was you. But does it also work with spells like fireball? Where the origin of the spell comes from your fingers? I guess it would be kindoff obvious :).

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    Default Re: Shadow Sorcerer

    Quote Originally Posted by ShirAhn View Post
    Shadow Blade is really thematic, but I can't really make room for it. 2d8 (+3) in melee is really not a position I want to be in. I feel that fire bolt or Toll the Dead would be a better/saver pick.
    Shadow Blade’s blade can be used as a thrown weapon, range 20/60, I’m pretty sure.
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    REAL mages speak Modron!
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    If I ever tried to cast animate dead or conjure animals at my table, my DM would reveal an AK47 and kill everyone in the room and then himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShirAhn View Post
    I agree that subtle is really fun, however considering how massively gimped the sorcerer is I feel that I NEED quick and twincast to be sorta competitive. I know it shouldn't be a priority when creating characters but I always want to be sort of decent in combat.
    The thing is, if you pursue the quicken/twin route, you're going to eat through your sorcery points quite quickly. Sorcerers are just like any caster in that dropping a couple nasty spells and peeing cantrips will do very well in most combats.

    Also, the sorcerer is far from gimped. Just take spells that take advantage of the Hound, and you'll feel effective. Maybe ditch Twin for Empower.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShirAhn View Post
    I agree that subtle is really fun, however considering how massively gimped the sorcerer is I feel that I NEED quick and twincast to be sorta competitive. I know it shouldn't be a priority when creating characters but I always want to be sort of decent in combat.
    twin is good. quicken is good. But you don't want to be using both. They're both very expensive, and you have a third metamagic option in the form of the hound. The hound is similar to heighten which is the third super-expensive metamagic option. So with quicken, twin, and hound, you'll run out of gas very quickly.
    Quote Originally Posted by ShirAhn View Post
    Shadow Blade is really thematic, but I can't really make room for it. 2d8 (+3) in melee is really not a position I want to be in. I feel that fire bolt or Toll the Dead would be a better/saver pick.
    Don't. Toll the dead deals as much damage at your current level, and will hit more often. You have the AC to go this route, but you'd also want a blade cantrip or the extra attack feature, and something like a fighting style would be really nice.
    Quote Originally Posted by ShirAhn View Post
    One Question about subtle though, I know it can be used to cast spells without people know it was you. But does it also work with spells like fireball? Where the origin of the spell comes from your fingers? I guess it would be kindoff obvious :).
    Subtle and empower are both solid. That said, a lot of manipulation spells (like suggestion for instance) can be cast without alerting anyone (unless they're a caster) regardless of whether you have subtle spell or not. Empower is a great, high efficiency pick.

    I'm still a huge fan of twin. Even if you only use it for cantrips, it's a huge damage buff. Best damage for a first level slot possible!
    Quote Originally Posted by EvilAnagram View Post
    The thing is, if you pursue the quicken/twin route, you're going to eat through your sorcery points quite quickly. Sorcerers are just like any caster in that dropping a couple nasty spells and peeing cantrips will do very well in most combats.

    Also, the sorcerer is far from gimped. Just take spells that take advantage of the Hound, and you'll feel effective. Maybe ditch Twin for Empower.
    I'm not really a fan of using the Hound until level 8+, because it's so expensive. Like at her current level, a single usage will take up half her SP for the day. If she gets the spell off, great, but advantage isn't everything. Twin is cheaper unless you're using it on your highest level slots.
    Last edited by strangebloke; 2018-04-25 at 08:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShirAhn View Post
    Thank you so much for your clear and respectful reply. After reading your story and doing a little more research I think that Subtle and Empower are the best choices for me. I have my doubts about the Half Drow race though. Yes half-elf gives a bit more stats/skills. However I can still get 16CHA, 16DEX and 14CON with my human(VAR) and still get MageArmor. I would rather have mage armor than fearie fire I think.

    One Question about subtle though, I know it can be used to cast spells without people know it was you. But does it also work with spells like fireball? Where the origin of the spell comes from your fingers? I guess it would be kindoff obvious :).
    Sorry. I have pretty strong feelings on the subject, so my mouth (fingers) went a little crazy.
    1. Fireball is evident that it came from you... once you've cast it. My example was to highlight that it couldn't be counterspelled by another caster. People will always see the fireball emanating from your hand, staff, butthole. But by that time, there's nothing that they can do about it. It's already barbecuing them.

    2. V Human gets...
    -A feat, 1 skill, +1 to 2 stats

    Drow Half Elf gets...
    -+2 to Cha and +1 to 2 stats, Darkvision (not that it matters to your Shadow Sorc), Fey Ancestry: You have advantage on saving throws against being charmed, and magic can't put you to sleep, an extra language and Drow Magic.

    You get better stats, which I would argue is worth the feat. Fey Ancestry is quite good too. Being charmed can suck hard. You should know as you'll probably be doing it to lots of humanoids, etc. Drow Magic isn't quite as good as Magic Initiate... But Darkness is your friend. And Faerie Fire is an epic spell. One of the things your character doesn't have is a means of getting Advantage to your attacks. Faerie Fire gets you that all while still allowing you to get and use Mage Armour.

    Ultimately though, it's your decision. Your character should play the way you want it and you'll still be just as successful.

    p.s. I second the costly nature of the hound. I thought about mentioning it in previous posts, but figured I'd already been too wordy.

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    Default Re: Shadow Sorcerer

    Point against drow half elf: faerie fire is concentration.

    Also, you're partially a drow. Ew.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CircleOfTheRock View Post
    Shadow Blade’s blade can be used as a thrown weapon, range 20/60, I’m pretty sure.
    It most certainly is, and when you throw it it reforms in your hand. One of my absolute favorite spells in the game!

    A side note: due to its wording, when it is dropped or thrown is when it will reform in your hand, but if you hand it off to another player, they could still use it (This is an interpretation, and would probably be DM dependent, but still an interesting possible loophole).
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