Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIV: Situation Normal, All FAQ'd Up

[Drasius]

Again, I'm not talking about tournament lists. I'm talking about a dude who bought his army pretty much straight out of the box, and in two days, was face-rolling everyone in the store, without even trying. It's a power-gamer's wet dream, because there are no bad choices in the Codex, because every choice in the Codex is exactly the same; Knight...Or different Knight. And you don't have to make any choices at all, because all's a Knight has to do to be good is... Be. You don't have to worry about Objectives because your models are super tough and have a load of Wounds, and your weapons count among the strongest in the game. Table your opponent and you win. Don't even bother actually playing the game.

In 7th Ed., could you play a casual Space Marines' list that wasn't the Gladius? Of course you could. Could you win with that list. Of course you could.
Could you play an Eldar list that didn't have Jetbikes? Of course you could...Not that Eldar players would, 'cause all of them are jerks.

In 7th Ed., could you play Orks and win games? Of course. It required a really, really specific build and was kind of meta-dependent. But, it is still possible to win even when the game is on hard mode...But it requires different tactics and strategies to just moving forward and pressing down the 'shoot' key like on easy.

My issue is that playing Knights is easy mode. My other point is that the Knight player can't do anything about it. Once you're play solo-Knights...You're playing Knights.

...Don't even get me started on tournament Knights, which are just going to be the same Knights, with a Guard Battalion and Custodes Jetbikes.

Do you know why you think that though? Because you were playing one of the top tier dexes! You'd be singing a very different tune if you weren't playing marines - even in a casual setting there's still good and bad codecies. Do you not remember telling us the story of some rando Eldar newbie who'd never played a game before in their life facerolling veteran players while not knowing 95% of the rules? I remember randomly building an Eldar army in 7th that I could wipe the floor with any casual list it came across - they had like 2 bad units in the entire book, it wasn't exactly difficult. Why is this suddenly a big deal? Is is because other than guard, this has been a relatively balanced set of 'dexes or is it something else? I can't imagine it's due to being Imperium because "Armies of the Imperium" has been the strongest rule in the game for a very long time, for multiple editions. Is it because it's pure dex for once? Is it because it's superheavies? Is it because we're effectively back to the bad old days of hard-counters (that was always the issue with a knight army since they were released)?

[Forum Explorer]

Still mad that Knights can be played as solo-Faction:
Problem is now worse with access to highly mobile models with dual Predator Autocannons... Three of those models can now slot into any Imperial army. Like a Guard Battalion.
Games where Kill Points are taken into account, Knights automatically win (same with spamming Leman Russes, Carnifexes and Talos Engines).
Giving <Questor Mechanicus> their own Sub-Faction was a mistake, because it all stacks with a Supreme Command of AdMech and Knight of the Cog.

The list can be beaten. But it requires a highly specialised list that ignores huge swathes of how the game is actually played, which makes said list basically useless against anything that isn't Knights - or Russes, Carnifexes or Talos Engines. In a tournament, Knights will get rolled. But in a casual meta where people can only sort of bring whatever they just happen to have, solo-Knights can get ****ed. Especially if they're a smart player, who thinks Helverins actually matter (because they do).

Might be first actual instance of Pay-to-Win.

Posted from phone.

Really? That's quite interesting. Before the Codex, Knights were, well not worthless, but bad. They were really bad.

Are KNights really that oppressive? In my experience they usually just died in the first battle round without doing much.

Ditto this. Not always the first turn, but most armies could basically bring a Knight down in a single turn. Or to it's lowest bracket at least. The old Knights lacked the killing power to really do enough damage as well. You'd get stuff like 'oh, I rolled a three on my thermal cannon. 2 hits, 2 wounds (spent a CP to reroll one failed wound), and did about 7 damage.' And it was even worse against stuff like Devastators. Turn that 7 wounds into 'I killed the Sarge and a single Lascannon'.

One Knight, is no problem. But that's not how Knights actually work. A solo-Knight player is looking at three or four, plus Armigers. The new Knights Castellan/Valiant are stupidly strong. Giving them access to Houses, Relics and Stratagems only makes them even more better.

Ahh, those. Is the problem that the Knights are too strong? Or are Castellan/Valiants + Armigers too strong? I mean if your friend made his list using only the Knights that are found in the Index, would he still have rolled face?

[Cheesegear]

Do you know why you think that though? Because you were playing one of the top tier dexes!

You know I'm giving examples of other Codecies, right? You see that, right?

Do you not remember telling us the story of some rando Eldar newbie who'd never played a game before in their life facerolling veteran players while not knowing 95% of the rules? I remember randomly building an Eldar army in 7th that I could wipe the floor with any casual list it came across - they had like 2 bad units in the entire book, it wasn't exactly difficult. Why is this suddenly a big deal?

So, because we've already seen it before, Power Creep doesn't matter?
It was **** then, and it's still ****, now.

'We've seen it before, so it's not a problem this time.' Isn't an argument.
If the same problem keeps happening again and again, it's still a problem.

"How is that different to..." is a non-argument, 'cause you're missing the point.

Is is because other than guard, this has been a relatively balanced set of 'dexes or is it something else?

Yes. At least in the casual ****-around meta.

I can't imagine it's due to being Imperium because "Armies of the Imperium" has been the strongest rule in the game for a very long time

Only in tournaments. Which isn't what I'm talking about.

Is it because it's superheavies? Is it because we're effectively back to the bad old days of hard-counters

Yes. That's it.

The counter to Seer/Screamer Councils was a Culexus Assassin, or good targeting of Large Blast weapons, where the 'hole' is on the Character you want to kill.
The counter to Razorback Gladius was x3 Servo-Skulls.
The counter to Drop Pod Gladius was Interceptor.

Countering stuff has always been a thing.

The problem this time, is that the hard counter...Is Knights of your own. The counter is the mirror match.
Equals stale meta.

Now, could you run x3 Tesseract Vaults and The Deceiver? Of course you could. But casual Necron players aren't going to come up with that, because there's so much more in the book to offer. So, the natural progression of the army is more natural, the way people buy models, actually leads them to make decisions on what to buy next. Whereas Knights...Go straight to Knights.

Really? That's quite interesting. Before the Codex, Knights were, well not worthless, but bad. They were really bad.

Armigers solve a major problem in the Faction. Conflagration Cannon solves the staple 'negs to hit' defense.
There was no way that you'd ever waste an Avenger Gatling Cannon on a unit of Scouts. Now? You don't have to. If the Scouts have Infiltrated too far forwards, you just Charge a Warglaive at them, while the real boys deal with the real targets.

The days of shooting Thermal Cannons at Infantry are over...Oh...

You'd get stuff like 'oh, I rolled a three on my thermal cannon. 2 hits, 2 wounds (spent a CP to reroll one failed wound), and did about 7 damage.' And it was even worse against stuff like Devastators. Turn that 7 wounds into 'I killed the Sarge and a single Lascannon'.

...Using Thermal Cannons to kill Infantry.

I mean if your friend made his list using only the Knights that are found in the Index, would he still have rolled face?

Of course not. No Armigers, no Dominus-class Knights, no Houses, Relics or Stratagems.
Why do you think no-one ran Knights out of the AdMech book? 'Cause they don't do anything.

In my experience, Knights go something like this...

1. Knights have first turn because they have less drops. Knights immediately start targeting anything carrying multiple S5+ shots and/or AP-2.
2. In the opponent's turn, whatever's left of the anti-tank drops a Knight into its worst bracket, maybe destroying it, if they're lucky.
3. In Knights' Turn 2, the other two Knights annihilate whatever remains of the anti-tank defences.
4. In the opponent's turn 2, they scratch the Knights' paint job.
5. In Turn 3, the Knights get into Melee, either using Reaper Chainswords against single-targets, or dominating the fight against Infantry using their feet.
6. The opponent stays in combat, tries to do damage.
7. In Turn 4, the Knights leave combat, shoot anything, Charge whatever they want.
8. The opponent might win the game on Objectives if they don't get tabled, and Kill Points aren't factored into Victory Conditions.
9. In Turn 5, the Knights table their opponent anyway. With one Knight left, and a bunch of Armigers running around. Probably.

If you don't destroy two of the Knights in turn 1, you've already lost the game. If you ignore the Armigers, you've already lost the game.
...And that's the casual game, that's for fun.

I imagine things go way different when you're playing ITC and Ruins block LoS (i.e; In a tournament setting where Knights get rolled because of how rules work, against properly competitive armies). But again, 'Casuals' and 'ITC rules' don't really go in the same sentence.

[Drasius]

You know I'm giving examples of other Codecies, right? You see that, right?

Except the bit where your arguments are bunk. Orks could win casual games? No, they couldn't, not without taking tournament lists against casual lists, at which point it's not a casual game anymore.

So, because we've already seen it before, Power Creep doesn't matter?
It was **** then, and it's still ****, now.

No, I'm wondering why it's such a big deal to you all of a sudden. There was nowhere near this level of outrage from you when you were playing marines in 6th/7th when the next big thing came along but marines could still compete.

'We've seen it before, so it's not a problem this time.' Isn't an argument.
If the same problem keeps happening again and again, it's still a problem.

"How is that different to..." is a non-argument, 'cause you're missing the point.

As above, I'm not asking why it's a problem, I'm asking why you're suddenly making such a big deal out of it.

Yes. At least in the casual ****-around meta.

See, I wasn't getting that impression at all from your previous posts.

Only in tournaments. Which isn't what I'm talking about.

The only time it's not super strong is if you're already going to be running a pure army. The instant you decide to cherry pick, it's straight back to be incredibly strong and given that the meta, casual or competitive, is multiple detatchments of different 'dexes, AotI is always going to be stuper strong.

Yes. That's it.

The counter to Seer/Screamer Councils was a Culexus Assassin, or good targeting of Large Blast weapons, where the 'hole' is on the Character you want to kill.
The counter to Razorback Gladius was x3 Servo-Skulls.
The counter to Drop Pod Gladius was Interceptor.

Countering stuff has always been a thing.

The problem this time, is that the hard counter...Is Knights of your own. The counter is the mirror match.
Equals stale meta.

The counter to a Culexus was screamers flyby attack, so that argument falls apart a bit there. Razors were barely detered by skulls since the were all ObSec and you had to kill everything while they had very little issue getting into position even if forced to move/tubo. It was nice against grav cannon tacs in rhinos, but if your opponent was bringing mass grav you were probably screwed anyway.

Interceptor was highly limited to the smallest handful of armies with only the Tau being able to field enough of it to make a difference.

Are there not ways to negate overwatch? Can you not drop in and charge? Can Raven Guard or other similar not!Infiltrate shenanigans be charging them first turn?

Now, could you run x3 Tesseract Vaults and The Deceiver? Of course you could. But casual Necron players aren't going to come up with that, because there's so much more in the book to offer. So, the natural progression of the army is more natural, the way people buy models, actually leads them to make decisions on what to buy next. Whereas Knights...Go straight to Knights.

If casual players aren't running 3 of their own superheavies, why are you supposing that they're playing full knight armies which are pure superheavies? I've been led to blieve that, outside of Aus, IK are extremely expensive on a total army cost basis, so all-IK-all-the-time is not really a casual army in the first place. If you can't solve the tournament army vs casual army problem, well, join the rest of us - it gets solved by social means instead of tactical nouce and again, that's no different to how it's been for a long time. Don't want to waste your time playing unpack and repack your models? Play against someone else.

[Cheesegear]

As above, I'm not asking why it's a problem, I'm asking why you're suddenly making such a big deal out of it.

Because making a big deal out of it during 6th 7th Ed., while I played Space Marines (and had a Gladius available) would have seemed disingenuous.

5th Ed; You can't talk because you have Razorbacks. [Matt Ward meme]
6th Ed; Haha, now you know how it feels.
7th Ed; You can't talk because you have a Gladius (we don't care that you don't use it). But you can complain about Eldar, that's fine. Also you're allowed to complain about the War Convocation. But nothing else.
8th Ed; Haha, now you know how it feels...But don't complain. You can't draw comparisons to 4th or 6th Ed., but we can draw comparisons to 5th and 7th all we want. Yes, we are going to make comparisons based on how circumstances were totally different 18 months ago, and use that for the basis of our arguments in the present.

The other, massive difference, is that 'making a big deal out of things', actually works now, because GW is actually listening. The more people complain about something now, the more likely it is to be changed. Even in 7th Ed., not just 18 months ago. Complaining about something being broken did ****-all. Now? It matters.

How come nobody talked about social justice in the '90s? That wasn't around when I was a kid! ...Also, there were no outlets for such a conversation to even take place and there was no support. It's interesting how that works.

Can Raven Guard or other similar not!Infiltrate shenanigans be charging them first turn?

That would work really well if Armigers weren't things that exist.
That would work really well if no-Overwatch could be found on generally more than one model per army at cost.
Even Reivers only work on <Infantry>, and Reivers are terrible.

If casual players aren't running 3 of their own superheavies, why are you supposing that they're playing full knight armies which are pure superheavies?

Because of the way the Knights' book is written. If you want to play Knights, you already know what you're in for.
If you want to play Necrons, or Guard, picking up Super-Heavies should be fairly low on your priority list when starting your new army - let alone picking up three of them.
That said, I'm also of the opinion that Super-Heavies never should have been introduced to the game, and with each edition they've only gotten stronger, not weaker. Especially with the current 3-cap arbitrarily limiting the amount of Heavy Support options you have available, and especially with the limitations on first turn alpha strikes.

The removal of alpha strikes (in addition to the total overhaul of how Melta and Deep Strike work way at the start of the beginning of the edition), in addition to the limitations placed on the amount of units you're allowed, has severely impacted the game in favour of large models that don't die. I know why GW has done this. It's so peoples' expensive models don't die on Turn 1. I distinctly remember Skarbrand getting killed on Turn 1 by Deep Striking Scions with Rapid Fire Plasma weapons. I get it. It's fine for single models. But that falls apart once those same models that don't die become spammed (Leman Russes, Carnifexes, Talos Engines). You have to cripple them on Turn 1, or you lose. But the number of tools for doing the crippling, have been crippled themselves.

Picking up a Primarch is different. As they are sold and marketed as things you must have, if you want your army to look cool.
I'm yet to see an Official source mention how integral having a Tesseract Vault is to the core identity of a Necron army.

Don't want to waste your time playing unpack and repack your models? Play against someone else.

As with most other issues, I spent my one or two days bitching about it. Now I'll probably get on with my life.
I've already made a bet for Eggs Benny saying that Knight-guy wont get a single game all next Saturday.

[Forum Explorer]

The problem this time, is that the hard counter...Is Knights of your own. The counter is the mirror match.
Equals stale meta.



Armigers solve a major problem in the Faction. Conflagration Cannon solves the staple 'negs to hit' defense.
There was no way that you'd ever waste an Avenger Gatling Cannon on a unit of Scouts. Now? You don't have to. If the Scouts have Infiltrated too far forwards, you just Charge a Warglaive at them, while the real boys deal with the real targets.

The days of shooting Thermal Cannons at Infantry are over...Oh...



...Using Thermal Cannons to kill Infantry.



Of course not. No Armigers, no Dominus-class Knights, no Houses, Relics or Stratagems.
Why do you think no-one ran Knights out of the AdMech book? 'Cause they don't do anything.

In my experience, Knights go something like this...

1. Knights have first turn because they have less drops. Knights immediately start targeting anything carrying multiple S5+ shots and/or AP-2.
2. In the opponent's turn, whatever's left of the anti-tank drops a Knight into its worst bracket, maybe destroying it, if they're lucky.
3. In Knights' Turn 2, the other two Knights annihilate whatever remains of the anti-tank defences.
4. In the opponent's turn 2, they scratch the Knights' paint job.
5. In Turn 3, the Knights get into Melee, either using Reaper Chainswords against single-targets, or dominating the fight against Infantry using their feet.
6. The opponent stays in combat, tries to do damage.
7. In Turn 4, the Knights leave combat, shoot anything, Charge whatever they want.
8. The opponent might win the game on Objectives if they don't get tabled, and Kill Points aren't factored into Victory Conditions.
9. In Turn 5, the Knights table their opponent anyway. With one Knight left, and a bunch of Armigers running around. Probably.

If you don't destroy two of the Knights in turn 1, you've already lost the game. If you ignore the Armigers, you've already lost the game.
...And that's the casual game, that's for fun.

I imagine things go way different when you're playing ITC and Ruins block LoS (i.e; In a tournament setting where Knights get rolled because of how rules work, against properly competitive armies). But again, 'Casuals' and 'ITC rules' don't really go in the same sentence.

Or Imperial Guard/Shadowswords. Though I feel that the big problem with Knights is the only stuff that Super-Heavies still aren't a thing for a lot of factions. You've got the Ork Gorka/Morka Naughts and the Wraithknight. Oh and the Chaos thing.


Well yeah, that's what I'm getting at. In the old days sometimes you just had bad choices for your Knights. Like you're running a Thermal Cannon, but your opponent is all Infantry. Sucks to be you.


No I meant they still get Houses, Relics and Stratagems. But no new units. No Armigers, No Castellans, No Valiants. Would they still be a problem then? Because hey, a Predator that shoots twice, while getting to move for only 174 points is really good. And it ends up dropping the Reaper Chainsword you almost never use for a second gun is also really good. Particularly when that gun is a super flamer that hits 3D6 times. I have no problems believing that those units are overtuned.


In my experience an army of the old Knights would kill one tank, and maybe a unit of infantry a turn. That's three Knights, and in comparison they would almost certainly lose one in return, so it was really a losing situation. Though the old Knights basically had to have allies, so there isn't even that 'your anti-infantry stuff doesn't get to do anything' since it would just shoot the half of your faction that isn't a Knight.

[Brookshw]

I've been led to blieve that, outside of Aus, IK are extremely expensive on a total army cost basis, so all-IK-all-the-time is not really a casual army in the first place.

Huh, I'm actually of the opinion that in the US knights are more cost effective (not to mention time effective for painting).

For contrast by points & dollars w/ nids (approximations and from my phone).
Flyrants: $53/pop, ~218 points. So slightly cheaper per point to buy that knight, but you can only have 3.
Carnifex: $90/2, ~120 pts each, so 240 points a box, call it $180 vs. A single knight.
Hive guard: $70/3 @ 48 pts each or 144pts/3, about 3 stacks equals a knight points,.....for $210 dollars.

Just ballparking it a bit from the phone, but it looks like for a pricepoint the knights do pretty well, especially w/ the new rule of 3. 5 boxes of genestealers would end up just about even, biovores at $40 per 50 pts get blown away.

[9mm]

What's this, Cheesegear is overreacting to something in 8th edition again? Never!

If a knight army clubseals you its cause you've swung your list too hard to kill infantry, and you need to correct back the other way.

[Cheesegear]

Or Imperial Guard/Shadowswords. [...] You've got the Ork Gorka/Morka Naughts and the Wraithknight. Oh and the Chaos thing.

Gorka/Morkanauts are not comparable to a Knight (hopefully a Codex changes that), and Stompas are overpriced garbage.
The Wraithknight was worse than a Knight before Knights got a Codex. If Eldar are going to beat Knights, it'll be by using ~20 Dark Reapers and 'Lances. But Craftworlds and Drukhari are the two of the three best Codecies in the game for a reason. Because they can kill both Infantry and Vehicles without compromising for one over the other.

The Chaos Lord of Skulls is really strong. It'll remove one Knight, then die...Unless an Armiger screen is on the board, then you can generally only Charge whatever's closest. Then one or two Armigers die, because that's how bases work, and then the Lord of Skulls dies.

Well yeah, that's what I'm getting at. In the old days sometimes you just had bad choices for your Knights. Like you're running a Thermal Cannon, but your opponent is all Infantry. Sucks to be you.

No I meant they still get Houses, Relics and Stratagems. But no new units. No Armigers, No Castellans, No Valiants.

In my opinion, no. Armigers preventing the first-turn Charges that do exist solves a big problem.

Also, the Relic that is "Your Knight is Objective Secured and counts as 10 models." is really annoying.

If a knight army clubseals you its cause you've swung your list too hard to kill infantry, and you need to correct back the other way.

Knights will almost always have the +1 to go first. 3-cap and no alpha strikes allowed. Your move.

[Forum Explorer]

Gorka/Morkanauts are not comparable to a Knight (hopefully a Codex changes that), and Stompas are overpriced garbage.
The Wraithknight was worse than a Knight before Knights got a Codex. If Eldar are going to beat Knights, it'll be by using ~20 Dark Reapers and 'Lances. But Craftworlds and Drukhari are the two of the three best Codecies in the game for a reason. Because they can kill both Infantry and Vehicles without compromising for one over the other.

The Chaos Lord of Skulls is really strong. It'll remove one Knight, then die...Unless an Armiger screen is on the board, then you can generally only Charge whatever's closest. Then one or two Armigers die, because that's how bases work, and then the Lord of Skulls dies.

Well yeah, that's what I'm getting at. In the old days sometimes you just had bad choices for your Knights. Like you're running a Thermal Cannon, but your opponent is all Infantry. Sucks to be you.



In my opinion, no. Armigers preventing the first-turn Charges that do exist solves a big problem.

Also, the Relic that is "Your Knight is Objective Secured and counts as 10 models." is really annoying.



3-cap and no alpha strikes allowed. Your move.

Pretty much. Super-Heavy choices have so far pretty much sucked this edition. The various Baneblade variants can be quite good (and the Shadowsword just got a lot better) and the Lord of Skulls. Everyone else is just bad, and there aren't a lot of other options to even begin with. I mean Tesserarc Vaults are technically super-heavies, but they don't really play like it. They play like psykers, since their actual gun is Tesla which doesn't really do anything more then say a Nightscythe then they do a bunch of mortal wounds.


Knights have a bunch of good relics. Though the one you mention only works on the old Knights.

[9mm]

Knights will almost always have the +1 to go first. 3-cap and no alpha strikes allowed. Your move.

Tanks for the Memories and I still win the roll off.

Spoiler: Tanks for the Memories

Show

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [24 PL, 520pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Regiment: Catachan

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila, Shotgun

Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Grand Strategist, Shotgun, Warlord

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 70pts]
. 6x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Grenade Launcher
. Heavy Weapon Team: Missile launcher
. Sergeant: Boltgun, Power sword

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 70pts]
. 6x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Grenade Launcher
. Heavy Weapon Team: Missile launcher
. Sergeant: Boltgun, Power sword

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 70pts]
. 6x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Grenade Launcher
. Heavy Weapon Team: Missile launcher
. Sergeant: Boltgun, Power sword

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 70pts]
. 6x Guardsman
. Guardsman W/ Special Weapon: Grenade Launcher
. Heavy Weapon Team: Missile launcher
. Sergeant: Boltgun, Power sword

+ Elites +

Ratlings [4 PL, 90pts]
. 10x Ratling: 10x Sniper Rifle

Ratlings [4 PL, 90pts]
. 10x Ratling: 10x Sniper Rifle

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [92 PL, 1480pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Regiment: Catachan

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Shotgun

+ Heavy Support +

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [30 PL, 484pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolters, Lascannon

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [30 PL, 484pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolters, Lascannon

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [30 PL, 482pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter
. Leman Russ Executioner: Heavy Bolters, Lascannon, Turret-mounted Executioner Plasma Cannon

++ Total: [116 PL, 2000pts] ++
Ironically, I'm pretty sure this is the worst list I can make with my models.

[Cheesegear]

Tanks for the Memories and I still win the roll off.

It doesn't count when you use Aeldari or Guardsmen, they're not the Codecies having problems.

[Drasius]

Because making a big deal out of it during 6th 7th Ed., while I played Space Marines (and had a Gladius available) would have seemed disingenuous.

5th Ed; You can't talk because you have Razorbacks. [Matt Ward meme]
6th Ed; Haha, now you know how it feels.
7th Ed; You can't talk because you have a Gladius (we don't care that you don't use it). But you can complain about Eldar, that's fine. Also you're allowed to complain about the War Convocation. But nothing else.
8th Ed; Haha, now you know how it feels...But don't complain. You can't draw comparisons to 4th or 6th Ed., but we can draw comparisons to 5th and 7th all we want. Yes, we are going to make comparisons based on how circumstances were totally different 18 months ago, and use that for the basis of our arguments in the present.

The other, massive difference, is that 'making a big deal out of things', actually works now, because GW is actually listening. The more people complain about something now, the more likely it is to be changed. Even in 7th Ed., not just 18 months ago. Complaining about something being broken did ****-all. Now? It matters.

Now who is strawmanning (again)?

Point was, if the status quo effectively remains the same (a small handful of clearly dominant dexes/builds), why has this been the trigger? Why knights? Why not Guard in 8th if this is all due to the new and improved GW ^(TM)? There was some fuss kicked up over guard and Guilliman's caryard and Airforce spectacular, but nothing like the reaction that knights seem to have provoked in you.

How come nobody talked about social justice in the '90s? That wasn't around when I was a kid! ...Also, there were no outlets for such a conversation to even take place and there was no support. It's interesting how that works.

They did, they were just told to STFU and were called a bunch of [insert your favourite derogatory phrase here] and there were support groups, but they weren't as easily accessable nor as in your face as social media is today.

In much the same way that GW had their own forums back in the day and it is/was/became a toxic cesspool because 40k players are a bunch of whiny crybabies everyone bitched about balance or the lack thereof.

That would work really well if Armigers weren't things that exist.
That would work really well if no-Overwatch could be found on generally more than one model per army at cost.
Even Reivers only work on <Infantry>, and Reivers are terrible.

And that's fine, but Armigers can be shot down reliably in a turn unlike the knights (from the 5 seconds of kwik maffs I've devoted to the subject). I'm not so sure I'd be so quick to discount taking a bunch of heavy guns since OC'ed plasma is still wounding on 4's and doing 2 damage and can be had on quite a few platforms and there's multiple ways to get lascannons into a list while circumventing the rule of 3.

Because of the way the Knights' book is written. If you want to play Knights, you already know what you're in for.
If you want to play Necrons, or Guard, picking up Super-Heavies should be fairly low on your priority list when starting your new army - let alone picking up three of them.
That said, I'm also of the opinion that Super-Heavies never should have been introduced to the game, and with each edition they've only gotten stronger, not weaker. Especially with the current 3-cap arbitrarily limiting the amount of Heavy Support options you have available, and especially with the limitations on first turn alpha strikes.

No different from how a Knight army used to play - they were relatively unfun back then too, it was roll or be rolled with very little middle ground. Granted, the system has now made it theoretically possible to hurt 'em with stuff, but in reality, it's the same as trying to hurt a Riptide in 6/7th with small arms - possible in theory, but in practice it's not going to happen.

The removal of alpha strikes (in addition to the total overhaul of how Melta and Deep Strike work way at the start of the beginning of the edition), in addition to the limitations placed on the amount of units you're allowed, has severely impacted the game in favour of large models that don't die. I know why GW has done this. It's so peoples' expensive models don't die on Turn 1. I distinctly remember Skarbrand getting killed on Turn 1 by Deep Striking Scions with Rapid Fire Plasma weapons. I get it. It's fine for single models. But that falls apart once those same models that don't die become spammed (Leman Russes, Carnifexes, Talos Engines). You have to cripple them on Turn 1, or you lose. But the number of tools for doing the crippling, have been crippled themselves.

Hmmm, individual units being fine but spam is a problem, perhaps this is what we should be complaining about since this has been a problem since forever. Oh wait - GW did try to address this to an extent with the rule of three and everyone lost their minds.

Picking up a Primarch is different. As they are sold and marketed as things you must have, if you want your army to look cool.
I'm yet to see an Official source mention how integral having a Tesseract Vault is to the core identity of a Necron army.

The only reason a Primarch is different is because you can't have more than 1 (or two if you're doing Chaos shenanigans like a dirty min-maxer), but that's going to be a rather short term thing as new Primarchs come back (I heard Corax is next cab off the rank for 40k, but take with a large grain of salt). As soon as you can have more than one in a list (see complaints about Chaos M&M's for proof), there's going to be the same problem again.

As with most other issues, I spent my one or two days bitching about it. Now I'll probably get on with my life.
I've already made a bet for Eggs Benny saying that Knight-guy wont get a single game all next Saturday.

You'd be a brave person to take that bet - I would have through most people could see the writing on the wall.

[9mm]

It doesn't count when you use Aeldari or Guardsmen, they're not the Codecies having problems.

ah yes the old moving the goalposts trick, fine have some Chaos.

Spoiler: Iron Within, Iron Without

Show

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [50 PL, 963pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion: Iron Warriors

+ HQ +

Warpsmith [5 PL, 78pts]: Combi-bolter, Flamer, Meltagun, No Chaos Mark, Power axe

+ Heavy Support +

Chaos Vindicator [8 PL, 127pts]: Combi-bolter, No Chaos Mark

Chaos Vindicator [8 PL, 127pts]: Combi-bolter, No Chaos Mark

Chaos Vindicator [8 PL, 127pts]: Combi-bolter, No Chaos Mark

Havocs [7 PL, 168pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher

Havocs [7 PL, 168pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher

Havocs [7 PL, 168pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Chainaxe, Combi-bolter
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher
. Havoc w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [55 PL, 1032pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Legion: Iron Warriors

+ HQ +

Warpsmith [5 PL, 78pts]: Combi-bolter, Flamer, Meltagun, No Chaos Mark, Power axe

Warpsmith [5 PL, 78pts]: Combi-bolter, Flamer, Meltagun, No Chaos Mark, Power axe

+ Troops +

Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 97pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Combi-bolter, Power axe
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher

Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 97pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Combi-bolter, Power axe
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher

Chaos Space Marines [5 PL, 97pts]: No Chaos Mark
. Aspiring Champion: Combi-bolter, Power axe
. 3x Marine w/ Boltgun
. Marine w/ heavy weapon: Missile launcher

+ Heavy Support +

Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: No Chaos Mark, 3x Obliterator

Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: No Chaos Mark, 3x Obliterator

Obliterators [10 PL, 195pts]: No Chaos Mark, 3x Obliterator

++ Total: [105 PL, 1995pts] ++
alternatively drop the vindies and a warpsmith for 2x despoilers, a sorc, and more combi-weapons and power weapons, lots of ways to play this style list. Also you can drop most of the combi-bolters to put 2 havoc launchers on 2 vindies base list has just under 30pts of wargear fiddling room

[Cheesegear]

Now who is strawmanning (again)?

I'm not Straw Manning, I'm listing the arguments, as I've heard them, throughout the years. Maybe a touch ad absurdum. But, that's how they've been. Yours touches on something really similar that I've been hearing.

Why knights?

Because Knights make the game unFun, and I can't think of a list that I could make, that also wouldn't be unFun to play.

Why not Guard in 8th

You mean like how I have?

There was some fuss kicked up over guard and Guilliman's caryard and Airforce spectacular

You mean like how Stormravens got emergency nerfed. Then Guilliman, Stormravens and Razorbacks got nerfed. Then Guilliman got nerfed again? And now Space Marines are unplayable? Yeah. I remember.

...and now all decent Space Marine players are jumping ship away from the dumpster fire.

In much the same way that GW had their own forums back in the day and it is/was/became a toxic cesspool because 40k players are a bunch of whiny crybabies everyone bitched about balance or the lack thereof.

Yeah. And now that bitching can actually get something done. So people do it more, not less. Because they're incentivised to do so.

Hmmm, individual units being fine but spam is a problem, perhaps this is what we should be complaining about since this has been a problem since forever. Oh wait - GW did try to address this to an extent with the rule of three and everyone lost their minds.

Everyone lost their minds, because not everything needed to be 3-capped, and some Factions (e.g; AdMech) were hamstrung, despite nothing spammable in that Codex (e.g; Dunecrawlers) actually even being broken. Everyone lost their minds, because despite steps being taken, the steps being taken were in the wrong direction. So, if we complain, maybe we can change it back?

People are losing their minds now, because turns out Monster/Vehicle Squadrons are unaffected by the 3-cap. Meaning that things like Leman Russes, Talos Engines and Carnifexes can all be taken pretty much as much as you want. While things that hurt them on the return, are limited. Turns out that you can't have 10 Devastators in a unit all with Heavy Bolters, but you can have 30 Dark Reapers all with Reaper Launchers. So x30 Reapers is way more effective than anything else, because every single one of them gets a Heavy weapon, regardless of how many you take. I'd like to say Hellblasters were similar. But Dark Reapers never getting any modifiers to hit is really good... Also one of the 'Hellblasters' can see through walls with a really powerful anti-Infantry weapon.

You'd be a brave person to take that bet - I would have through most people could see the writing on the wall.

He doesn't. He'll reckon he'll get a game. Since he wont, it'd be nice for him to take me out for a meal, and there's a pub around the corner that does all-day breakfast, and I like Eggs Benny.

fine have some Chaos.

...Which is a list really similar to a Dark Angels list I made. Which, is a list I don't want to play with.

- Multiple Super-Heavies are unFun.
- The list required to beat multiple Super-Heavies, is also unFun.
Therefore, spammable Super-Heavies have ruined the game since the start.

EDIT: lol, this came up on my YouTube feed.

For those of you who don't want to watch a 90 minute video

Spoiler: Ultramarines

Show

Guilliman
Lieutenant
Lieutenant

Tactical Squad (x5)
Tactical Squad (x5)
Tactical Squad (x5)

Stormraven
Stormraven

Razorback; Twin Lascannon
Razorback; Twin Lascannon
Razorback; Twin Lascannon
Razorback; Twin Lascannon
Razorback; Twin Lascannon

was tabled on Turn 4, by...

Spoiler: Knights/Iron Hands

Show

Knight Warden
Knight Crusader
Knight Gallant
Armiger Helglaives (x2)

Lieutenant
Lieutenant
Tactical Squad (x5)
Tactical Squad (x5)
Tactical Squad (x5)

The Knights went first.
Not even the Dominus Knights or the good Armigers. lol.

[Yaktan]

I will just sit over here and feel smug for beating up on the invincible knights with my trash tau.

[The_Admiral]

Spoiler: Knights

Show

So my Armigers. I'm painting up a knight 'house' that's an academy for the children of minor knight houses to learn how to pilot.

[Selpharia]

Thank you for the tyranids advice! I pulled out a narrow win after making the changes you suggested, with juuust enough stealers surviving to kill the things that needed killing. Without those changes to increase number of bodies, I’m nearly certain I would have lost badly.

[Drasius]

I'm not Straw Manning, I'm listing the arguments, as I've heard them, throughout the years. Maybe a touch ad absurdum. But, that's how they've been. Yours touches on something really similar that I've been hearing.

I don't know you from a sack of potatoes, all I can do is judge based on the evidence I see before me in your posts. If you're hearing the same argument a bunch, then either there might be some truth in it or you're needing to get your message across better.

Because Knights make the game unFun, and I can't think of a list that I could make, that also wouldn't be unFun to play.

They did that on release. I have an IK army, I bought them on release and then picked up the Renegade box, not because I'm a cheesemonger, but because I can have an excuse to play Battletech in the 40k setting. I would bring 'em out at tournaments, but I never played a single casual game (bar some Apoc, but that doesn't count) with them because that's not what they (or any other all superheavy army) are for. I'm not "defending" them being OP, I haven't played 8th and likely won't play 40k again for a while due to location so I have absolutely no self interest in them being strong.

You mean like how I have?

The reaction here certainly feels dispropotionate. Feels like IG being strong was a shrug and advocating everyone to pickup some Scions and Russ' while IK being strong is a call to battlestations. Hmmm... how much IG do you own again? I know you've stated it's not the reason, but these coincidences keep popping up Cheese.

You mean like how Stormravens got emergency nerfed. Then Guilliman, Stormravens and Razorbacks got nerfed. Then Guilliman got nerfed again? And now Space Marines are unplayable? Yeah. I remember.

...and now all decent Space Marine players are jumping ship away from the dumpster fire.

I'm not sure if months (IIRC) is exactly emergency nerfed, but we all know there's a FAQ going to be out in a little while and given the history of GW actually giving a crap and reeling in broken stuff, is it really so out of the question that they might fix IK?

Yeah. And now that bitching can actually get something done. So people do it more, not less. Because they're incentivised to do so.

Unless the faction in question is Eldar, but we already knew that.

Everyone lost their minds, because not everything needed to be 3-capped, and some Factions (e.g; AdMech) were hamstrung, despite nothing spammable in that Codex (e.g; Dunecrawlers) actually even being broken. Everyone lost their minds, because despite steps being taken, the steps being taken were in the wrong direction. So, if we complain, maybe we can change it back?

People are losing their minds now, because turns out Monster/Vehicle Squadrons are unaffected by the 3-cap. Meaning that things like Leman Russes, Talos Engines and Carnifexes can all be taken pretty much as much as you want. While things that hurt them on the return, are limited. Turns out that you can't have 10 Devastators in a unit all with Heavy Bolters, but you can have 30 Dark Reapers all with Reaper Launchers. So x30 Reapers is way more effective than anything else, because every single one of them gets a Heavy weapon, regardless of how many you take. I'd like to say Hellblasters were similar. But Dark Reapers never getting any modifiers to hit is really good... Also one of the 'Hellblasters' can see through walls with a really powerful anti-Infantry weapon.

No one has ever accused GW of knowing what they're doing, just that they're trying now, and despite getting it wrong, they DID identify the main problem. It's a good start. I'd also suggest that it's not that it was the wrong direction, it's that it didn't go far enough. But then, if you limited Russ' to 3, the world would flood with all the guard players tears, so who know, maybe they could have a special IG detatchment that docks 'em command points but let's 'em run their tanks or it costs increasing amounts of points for more than 3 of the same model or maybe each Russ in a squadron costs extra. I dunno the solution but limiting spam is a great move and anyone who wants to complain about not being able to use their 70 hellblasters can go play narrative.

He doesn't. He'll reckon he'll get a game. Since he wont, it'd be nice for him to take me out for a meal, and there's a pub around the corner that does all-day breakfast, and I like Eggs Benny.

Very keen to hear how this goes, please report back with results.

[Cheesegear]

They did that on release. I have an IK army, I bought them on release and then picked up the Renegade box, not because I'm a cheesemonger, but because I can have an excuse to play Battletech in the 40k setting. I would bring 'em out at tournaments, but I never played a single casual game

Not everyone has self-awareness like that. Some people think that because they have it, they're allowed to use it. "It's part of the game, man."
...But of course, they forget in 7th Ed. when I had a Gladius and they'd refuse me games on pretty much the exact same premise.

Feels like IG being strong was a shrug and advocating everyone to pickup some Scions and Russ' while IK being strong is a call to battlestations.

I guess the difference is that Infantry don't really need specialised weapons to kill them. So, while Infantry Guard may be powerful, it's certainly beatable on the return, because they're still just T3 dudes in 4+/5+ Armour. Almost all Infantry models in the game get something to deal with that for free.

...And then Infantry were too strong, and Conscripts got nerfed.
...And then alpha striking Scions got nerfed.

Because people complained. But nothing changes unless people complain. So that's what's happening.

I'm not sure if months (IIRC) is exactly emergency nerfed

The 'Boots On The Ground' rule happened the day after a major tournament. If you have Fliers, you get tabled more easily.

but we all know there's a FAQ going to be out in a little while and given the history of GW actually giving a crap and reeling in broken stuff, is it really so out of the question that they might fix IK?

I don't think they'll fix Imperial Knights so soon. They'll give some excuse why they have to wait a few months, and then they'll do it. The same reason they couldn't possibly nerf Craftworlds or Tyranids even though everyone said that they were broken. It was only until after they made all their hype-train sales two major tournaments where people would deliberately spend money on the latest powerful models, that they nerfed Craftworlds and Tyranids.

Unless the faction in question is Eldar, but we already knew that.

...And even after the nerf, people are still quite happy to run 20-30 Dark Reapers. Because they're still really good...Which just means that the points weren't increased enough.

No one has ever accused GW of knowing what they're doing, just that they're trying now, and despite getting it wrong, they DID identify the main problem. It's a good start. I'd also suggest that it's not that it was the wrong direction, it's that it didn't go far enough.

If GW isn't going to fiddle with points costs more actively. If a Dark Reaper can kill a Black Knight in one shot, you should be looking at ~45 Points per model.

The deciding factor of whether a unit is balanced or not, is points cost. But if you increased the points cost too high, then they'd be unusable in lower point games (good, right?). That means little Timmy wont have a reason to buy them when he's just starting out.

If GW isn't going to fiddle with points cost properly (i.e; More than twice per year [and never after a Codex release]; also, moving points up and down has no effect on Power Level, so anyone who's using that system is laughing all the way to the podium), then they would have been better off with a Restricted List like Yu-Gi-Oh! ():

Only certain units are restricted, while others are not.
This requires GW to actually go through every unit in the game on a case-by-case basis.
They're not going to do that, because that sounds like actual work...Blanket banning everything seems easier, even though it hurts some units way more than other units. But who cares? At least they didn't have to work. Balanced game design is supposed to be easy, don't you know?

[9mm]

...Which is a list really similar to a Dark Angels list I made. Which, is a list I don't want to play with.

- Multiple Super-Heavies are unFun.
- The list required to beat multiple Super-Heavies, is also unFun.
Therefore, spammable Super-Heavies have ruined the game since the start.

Here's the thing, I've posted TAC lists I either play, or would like to build and play. If you don't want to play that style list, fine. You do you but as I said during your conscript hysterics, you do not get to bake a gaping hole into your army and whine when it is exploited. Either git good and put in the work to find a list that works for you that will TAC, or accept the fact some people will just beat you.

[LCP]

It was only until after they made all their hype-train sales two major tournaments where people would deliberately spend money on the latest powerful models, that they nerfed Craftworlds and Tyranids.

Two tournaments is like 2-300 customers tops. Even if they all went out and bought a brand new army I think that would be a fairly small blip in GW's revenue.

You always seem to portray GW as hyper-competent corporate conspiracists until your argument needs them to be bumbling buffoons, it's giving me whiplash.

[Drasius]

Not everyone has self-awareness like that. Some people think that because they have it, they're allowed to use it. "It's part of the game, man."
...But of course, they forget in 7th Ed. when I had a Gladius and they'd refuse me games on pretty much the exact same premise.

And eventually those people don't get games outside of tournaments, they drive away all the non-cheesemongers and kill the scene or they force a meta power escalation and get trounced because those people usually aren't great players and then leave. It's not ideal, but eventually the problem fixes itself one way or another.

I guess the difference is that Infantry don't really need specialised weapons to kill them. So, while Infantry Guard may be powerful, it's certainly beatable on the return, because they're still just T3 dudes in 4+/5+ Armour. Almost all Infantry models in the game get something to deal with that for free.

...And then Infantry were too strong, and Conscripts got nerfed.
...And then alpha striking Scions got nerfed.

Because people complained. But nothing changes unless people complain. So that's what's happening.

Nuh uh, anything can kill anything, GW told me so. You're such a n00b CG! /s

While the sentiment is acurate, I feel that it's also partially because we were all so used to taking melta and grav by the buckload that nobody really adapted well to having to actually plan on how to sweep infantry off the field in large numbers when wounding on 2's/3's, no save, no cover suddenly wasn't a thing anymore. As things have swung back to dealing with armfuls of chaff to a large extent, suddenly we get the metabuster of very few high T high W targets.

Some answers are better and more general purpose than others though. A friend of mine asked me just last night to help him decide on what to buy next, with a decided anti-IK bias in mind. Sadly, while he was sick of painting power armour, on a points per wound metric, the obvious answer (to me) is Las Devs and Hellblasters, both of whom are at ~28 ppw (assuming rr1's to-hit and wound). Given that he already has 25 Hellblasters and wasn't looking at getting more PA infantry and his other choices were in the region of ~38/42/65/70 ppw, he basically shook his head and decided not to bother and just refuse games against anyone bringing 2 or more knights.

The 'Boots On The Ground' rule happened the day after a major tournament. If you have Fliers, you get tabled more easily.

IIRC, they were a problem for a long time before that, but it could very well be that I'm confusin that with something else.

I don't think they'll fix Imperial Knights so soon. They'll give some excuse why they have to wait a few months, and then they'll do it. The same reason they couldn't possibly nerf Craftworlds or Tyranids even though everyone said that they were broken. It was only until after they made all their hype-train sales two major tournaments where people would deliberately spend money on the latest powerful models, that they nerfed Craftworlds and Tyranids.

...And even after the nerf, people are still quite happy to run 20-30 Dark Reapers. Because they're still really good...Which just means that the points weren't increased enough.

To play devil's advocate, if they did anything sooner, there'd be a bunch of whining that it was GW's anti-Xeno bias causing it or that they were protecting marines, or that they weren't even that strong and it was a hasty kneejerk reaction or some other rubbish. Damned if they do and damned if they don't.

True, all of this could have been averted with a slightly more critical eye over the books before release or even a token amount of playtesting, but hey, 7th was basically the FAQ/Errata for 6th, so we've come a long way in a relatively short amount of time. Things are improving, even if they're not perfect.

If GW isn't going to fiddle with points costs more actively. If a Dark Reaper can kill a Black Knight in one shot, you should be looking at ~45 Points per model.

The deciding factor of whether a unit is balanced or not, is points cost. But if you increased the points cost too high, then they'd be unusable in lower point games (good, right?). That means little Timmy wont have a reason to buy them when he's just starting out.

Depends on if little Timmy is getting his parents to blow 200+ dollars on a centrepiece model when they're just starting. While no blackshirt is going to actively discourage anyone who wants to buy big expensive models, the ones I've known and spoken too often and the way the trainer for the Aus and NZ stores has told me is that they encourage them to start smaller so the sticker shock of the bigger kits isn't as bad and that they can get painted models on the table quicker. Now, that's taking what was said at face value, but I've got no reason to disbelieve them and have seen this in action from multiple blackshirts, so I believe it to be the case.

If GW isn't going to fiddle with points cost properly (i.e; More than twice per year [and never after a Codex release]; also, moving points up and down has no effect on Power Level, so anyone who's using that system is laughing all the way to the podium), then they would have been better off with a Restricted List like Yu-Gi-Oh! ():

Well, there has to be some incentive to use PL other than being worse than a 6 year old at maths I guess?

Beyond that, there'd be a riot if GW tweaked points more often than twice a year, hell, there's already complaints that they review points that often!

Only certain units are restricted, while others are not.
This requires GW to actually go through every unit in the game on a case-by-case basis.
They're not going to do that, because that sounds like actual work...Blanket banning everything seems easier, even though it hurts some units way more than other units. But who cares? At least they didn't have to work. Balanced game design is supposed to be easy, don't you know?

Probably because they don't want to end up with another backlash like they did when they moved Wraithknights from regular heavy support to Superheavies and ****heads valued customers who brought 3 of them could suddenly only field one, or when they stated that you could only have 1 Tau Commander, or if they said [unit x] was unrestricted and then changed their minds and people who brought 9 of them lost their minds.

Two tournaments is like 2-300 customers tops. Even if they all went out and bought a brand new army I think that would be a fairly small blip in GW's revenue.

You always seem to portray GW as hyper-competent corporate conspiracists until your argument needs them to be bumbling buffoons, it's giving me whiplash.

To the first point, have you never seen the sudden surge in netlists after one of the big tournies gets the results published? I have. Suddenly 3-4 people in the store really, really always wanted to play Tyranids with 3 flyrants, 5 mawlocs and some spore mines but ... uh ... couldn't decide on a colour scheme. Yeah, yeah that's why they only just suddenly started the army, definately nothing else. I suspect you'll find it's a LOT more than a couple of hundred clones of NOVA/LVO/BAO/12th company GT/[insert favourite tournament here] winning lists. Hell, even more when you consider top 8 and not just the winners.

To the second, I think they're a bit of both. In some areas, they have a pretty good idea of how to exploit their target market, but they also make some monumentally dumb choices. I do think that many people ascribe too much of their good calls to brilliance instead of a stopped clock being right twice a day, but the fact that they seem to make good commercials calls just as often as they royally balls it up means that there's definately someone there who knows how things work. I can only assume that it's due to it being the result of multiple people, some of which are hyper competant but bad at communicating their ideas and others who are likable buffoons with excellent powers of persuasion.

[9mm]

While the sentiment is acurate, I feel that it's also partially because we were all so used to taking melta and grav by the buckload that nobody really adapted well to having to actually plan on how to sweep infantry off the field in large numbers when wounding on 2's/3's, no save, no cover suddenly wasn't a thing anymore. As things have swung back to dealing with armfuls of chaff to a large extent, suddenly we get the metabuster of very few high T high W targets.

I've been saying this for nearly a year now, people are still playing this game like it's 7th ed. It has taken nearly 3 years for the hard break form WFB to AoS to truly sink in. I'd like to say it'll take less for 40k, but I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't for some.

Probably because they don't want to end up with another backlash like they did when they moved Wraithknights from regular heavy support to Superheavies and ****heads valued customers who brought 3 of them could suddenly only field one, or when they stated that you could only have 1 Tau Commander, or if they said [unit x] was unrestricted and then changed their minds and people who brought 9 of them lost their minds.

To the first point, have you never seen the sudden surge in netlists after one of the big tournies gets the results published? I have. Suddenly 3-4 people in the store really, really always wanted to play Tyranids with 3 flyrants, 5 mawlocs and some spore mines but ... uh ... couldn't decide on a colour scheme. Yeah, yeah that's why they only just suddenly started the army, definately nothing else. I suspect you'll find it's a LOT more than a couple of hundred clones of NOVA/LVO/BAO/12th company GT/[insert favourite tournament here] winning lists. Hell, even more when you consider top 8 and not just the winners.

I'm going to add to these two points and say they are related. When my local club started really adding 40k into the schedual in addition to AoS. the power gamer of the group decided he was going to go Tau commander spam. When he released Tau was bad he ordered all the Flyrants right before the hammer dropped. I'm not supprised he's sticking with AoS this NOVA.

[Forum Explorer]

I'm going to add to these two points and say they are related. When my local club started really adding 40k into the schedual in addition to AoS. the power gamer of the group decided he was going to go Tau commander spam. When he released Tau was bad he ordered all the Flyrants right before the hammer dropped. I'm not supprised he's sticking with AoS this NOVA.

The rapidly changing meta does really hammer powergamers hard. Like most powergamer suffering stories, I'm perfectly fine with this.


Anyways, the only problem I have with the Knights is the Conflageration Cannon. 3D6 autohits is really bad to deal with. Especially since that Knight will have a 3++ against shooting. So you have to get into melee to really hurt it. But to do that, you have to survive the auto hitting 3D6, S7 D2 gun. It wouldn't be a problem if denying Overwatch wasn't so incredibly rare, but it is, so it is a problem.

[Cheesegear]

Two tournaments is like 2-300 customers tops. Even if they all went out and bought a brand new army I think that would be a fairly small blip in GW's revenue.

Their specific reasoning for not releasing any Errata and points adjustments sooner, is because they were specifically waiting for LVO and Adepticon.

[LCP]

I would say the simplest explanation for that would be a good faith effort to balance the game based on data.

[LudDavenport]

I predict...

Custodes Shield-Captain Supreme Command - or a Patrol of Jetbikes.
SHAD of Helverins
Rest of points is spent on Guard Battalion.

...Will be a tournament-placing list - if not a winner. Space Marines is a dead Codex.

Was traveling when this got posted, but was going to comment that this was nearly the exact list I thought of when trying to find a place for Helverins. Been thinking about that placing 15 jet bike list, and what to replace the assassins with. Helverins slot in rather nicely as ranged heavy weapons fire. Current list cuts three bikes to get 3 Helverins and add 3 units of mortar HWTs.

edit:

Spoiler: List

Show

Obligatory Guard Battalion, lets say cadian.
HQ:
2x Company commanders, with warlord and aquila distributed between them. 60 points
Troops:
4x infantry squads, 1 has a mortar HWT 165 points
Heavy Support:
3x HWTs that all have mortars 99 points
Battalion total: 324

IK SHAD, mortan to shoot at shadows?
Lords of War:
3x Armiger Helverin because you can have 3-9 but at least 3 to get special rules.
SHAD total: 522
SHAD+Battalion=846

Custodes Outriders
HQ:
Shield Captain on a Dawneagle jetbike, also miserecordia
Fast Attack:
2x 3 man Veritas Squads
5 man Veritas Preators squad

total 2000 points.

[Corsair14]

Not currently being in a Meta right now, there being one other player down the hall from me I discovered and us having a mutual night off so Im putting my army together ahead of schedule and not at my planned put each together and paint it then put together the next plan. The Tesseract Ark, on its own is it worth bringing as part of a Mephrit flying wing? I have to get it shipped over here is why I was wondering as its sitting at a friends house in pieces back in the States. Its a cool looking model but I am not seeing anything great and powerful on the rules so is it worth its points even to be worth shipping? The rest of the army consists of a lord, a DDA, 30 Immortals a cryptek, all Nihilak. Then I have in my Mephrit "wing" 6 Wraiths, 6 Blades, a CCB, 6 destroyers, a cryptek, 10 Deathmarks.

-Currently considering replacing the on foot lord with a second CCB as the warlord making him one of those unkillable command barge characters while the wing CCB is more offensive oriented.

General plan is to hold the center while the wing pushes and clears a flank. In theory. I didn't want to play a static army or fall into the deceiver transport trap.

[bluntpencil]

I had a really fun game a few days ago, my Deathwatch (+ Tallarn Battalion) against his Iron Warriors.

Spoiler: Deathwatch + CP Battery

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Watch Master
Jump Captain with T Hammer and Banebolts Storm Bolter
Terminator Librarian with Combi-Melta

A big Kill-Team with 2 missile launchers, 3 Cyclone Terminators, a Terminator and a Vanguard. Storm Shields and Stalkers.

A Kill Team with Stalkers, Storm Shields, an Infernus and a missile launcher, with a combat squad of 3 bikes and two Vanguard.

2 Kill-Teams with Storm Bolters and a Frag Cannon, with Vanguard/Bike Combat Squad.

2 Company Commanders
3 Infantry Squads

Spoiler: Iron Warriors

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A whole bunch of characters (two Sorcerers, a Terminator Sorcerer, 1 Lord, 1 Terminator Lord)
4 units of Havocs (Iron Warriors, go!)
2 units of Terminators
1 Deredeo Dreadnought

We rolled 'Spoils of War'.

Well, I seized the initiative, and the shooty kill-team guarded an objective on a ruin, for which I drew a Secure Objective, with the Watch Master. They then blasted a Havoc Squad off the board for first Blood. The infantry squads advanced, one going up a ruin, to preemptively take an objective. One Vanbike squad hid, the other zoomed up the left flank to face down a Lascannon squad. No shots fired at the Deredeo, as it was hiding. A few Havocs plinked off various squads.

He then moved his Deredeo out into the open and unleashed hell. Storm Shields and wound allocation shenanigans kept the shooty kill team on their objective with a nice number of models left (immunity to morale helped against that Deredeo gun, too). Having drawn a whole army of fire, it turns out my opponent drew a Secure Objective card... for the exact same objective I got last turn. Nice.

I dropped in my deep strikers. Librarian next to the lascannons, who would be supported by the Vanbike Combat Squad coming to help. One kill team on the right, one on an objective in the centre, getting me another secure objective VP.

The Librarian and the Vanbike squad wiped out the Lascannons, netting another objective, whilst the other deep strikers did some damage to various squads.

He plinked away with all his guns, but my Storm Shields, and the wound allocation shenanigans that comes with it, kept my Kill Teams operational. He dropped in Terminators, one in his own deployment zone (along with a Termi Lord and Sorcerer), one next to my big shooty Kill-Team which was getting slowly killed (Auspex Scan punished him for this). They gunned down some of the two small Kill-Teams which were up in his face, pointing Storm Bolters at him.

I responded by teleporting my Librarian back home, to back up the Watch Master and shooty Kill-Team. My Captain gunned down some chaff to get a landing spot on a building, then jumped onto a Sorcerer and killed him with his Thunder Hammer. A Vanbike squad charged in too, to the building's lower level, and tied up some Havocs.

The Librarian got Smite off, but did negligible damage to the Terminators, as did the Kill Team and Watch Master (who repositioned himself for a Heroic Intervention, should they charge).

My Kill-Teams continued to tank wounds on Storm Shields on his turn, but were being whittled down by weight of fire. The Chaos Lord and Sorcerer made short work of the marines facing them, and the other Kill Team wasn't faring much better, getting zapped with psychic mortal wounds. The big shooty Kill-Team got wiped out by Terminator combi-Weapons, and they charged the Librarian, but were Intervened against by the Watch Master, who murdered them all with his Custodes spear. His Warlord charged my Captain, but was smacked in the face with a Thunder Hammer for his efforts. I used Honour Your Brothers to kill off a single Havoc, so that I'd be free to charge the Deredeo on my turn (a mistake!).

On my turn, realising that I had all the VPs, I hid my Watch Master out of sight. The Librarian advanced, and tried and failed to Smite a Sorcerer (Denied). My Guard advanced, shooting ineffectively, hoping to hold the heavy hitters in position. One Guard officer and his squad hid behind a building at the back, just to be safe. The Captain charged from an unseen position, hoping to avoid overwatch from the Deredeo, but got blown up by its Havoc Launchers. Sad times.

He shot the hell out of everything I had left, massacring most of my guard (save for the hiding officer, and one lonely Guardsman), and all of my Space Marines, save the Watch Master, who was hiding. The only thing that could feasibly hit the hiding dudes was the Havoc Launcher on the Deredeo, but it couldn't hit the Guard officer, on account of the closer Guardsman. At this point, my win was a given.

Lessons learned:

Big shooty kill-team isn't much more than a distraction Carnifex. I mostly knew that going in. I'll be keeping it until I can afford more dudes.
The Storm Shields were totally worth it.
In our meta, Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists are awesome. Loads of terrain.
Vanbike Combat Squads are very flexible, and survivable, but don't really excel at anything. Certainly useful, though, but need more playing with.