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  1. - Top - End - #331
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    This happens. I advise rushing the dropship medical upgrades. The increased medical points make a huge difference in the amount of time your mechwarriors are down when they take the occasional head hit. In the late game downtime for a single injury can drop to three or four days, which is nothing. Cockpit upgrades also help, but there are other things you'll probably want to put in those slots on at least some mechs.

    Overall, in terms of dropship upgrades, once you've got the basic structural ones out of the way its drive (more missions in less time means more money and salvage), then medical (less downtime), then recreational (higher morale), and only then the mech bay and training upgrades. Having the ability to haul around 18 mechs is an absurd luxury. You'll never need to keep more than 8 available, if that. The training modules are largely useless since by the time you get them online all your mechwarriors are way over the cap.
    Depends on how much use you make of morale abilities and how fast you kill, but there's very rarely a time when taking less head hits is worse than any of the other choices except for maybe on your missile boat who shouldn't be getting shot at anyway.

    As for the Argo, many people argue that the morale upgrades are useless (and I tend to agree to a large extent) while having at least the second mechbay and a few of the upgrades are of high convinience, not only for avoiding some nasty random events, but also for switching loadouts (if you're not running stock machines for the challenge) and the ability to have a jump capable lance and a plodder lance.

    In my second run I'm mainly using stock (or, at least, stock'ish) 'mechs and making heavy use of evasion rather than Bulwark and I've taken almost no pilot injuries. I'm keeping every pilot with their own 'mech however, so having a second bay means I can actually have more than 5 pilots + the CO.

    That said, beyond the drive upgrades, I'd say the rest of the Argo really doesn't matter much and to simply throw money at whatever you're feeling like.

  2. - Top - End - #332
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    That evasion point reminds me of a thought I had last time I played that I meant to ask some people who knew the franchise better, then promptly forgot:

    I remember reading a long time ago that going prone in a forest in the board game had the side effect of making it more likely to take a headshot when you did get hit. Something about increasing the relative probability of a headshot by reducing the number of hit results on the hit table? Was there something to that?
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  3. - Top - End - #333
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alent View Post
    That evasion point reminds me of a thought I had last time I played that I meant to ask some people who knew the franchise better, then promptly forgot:

    I remember reading a long time ago that going prone in a forest in the board game had the side effect of making it more likely to take a headshot when you did get hit. Something about increasing the relative probability of a headshot by reducing the number of hit results on the hit table? Was there something to that?
    I don't recall Prone ever changing the hit tables. The older Partial Cover rules (IIRC, +3 to hit but damage was rolled on the Punch table) did increase the chance of a headshot, but those have been replaced with newer ones (+1 to hit, leg hits are ignored). That may be what you are thinking of.

  4. - Top - End - #334
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    As for the Argo, many people argue that the morale upgrades are useless (and I tend to agree to a large extent) while having at least the second mechbay and a few of the upgrades are of high convinience, not only for avoiding some nasty random events, but also for switching loadouts (if you're not running stock machines for the challenge) and the ability to have a jump capable lance and a plodder lance.
    Having a morale of 45-50 to start a battle is a pretty sizeable boost over being in the 25-35 range. Admittedly you can get there without any help if you plod around space enough and play a lot of casual card games, but the morale upgrades get you there much faster, especially as they double the positive effects of certain travel events. They also have the advantage of being comparatively cheap versus some of the higher-end upgrades, making them a good use of your time while building up some real spending money.

    In my second run I'm mainly using stock (or, at least, stock'ish) 'mechs and making heavy use of evasion rather than Bulwark and I've taken almost no pilot injuries. I'm keeping every pilot with their own 'mech however, so having a second bay means I can actually have more than 5 pilots + the CO.
    The second bay is useful certainly. Eight seems to be roughly the ideal number of mechs to carry around (2 LRMboats, 2 alpha strike hunter-killers, 2 scouts, 2 other). With regard to the pilots, I do kind of wish the game randomized the starting group. Tight money at the start is a huge incentive to use the initial team, and XP gain quickly makes them better than anyone you could possibly hire - especially given the reputation barriers in the early game - so unless a freak event kills one, Behemoth, Dekker, Glitch, and Medusa are likely to get so far ahead that you'll reach into that well over and over again (this is actually a fairly common issue in tactical combat games of this nature).
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  5. - Top - End - #335
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Having a morale of 45-50 to start a battle is a pretty sizeable boost over being in the 25-35 range. Admittedly you can get there without any help if you plod around space enough and play a lot of casual card games, but the morale upgrades get you there much faster, especially as they double the positive effects of certain travel events. They also have the advantage of being comparatively cheap versus some of the higher-end upgrades, making them a good use of your time while building up some real spending money.
    Yes and no. It's pretty trivial to build morale since everything is made of paper early on and heavier 'mechs give more morale on destruction later, so even if you don't ignore the story and slum around farming better toys, it's still cake. The real tipping point is 40 as that means 2 called shots in a row, though 30 is also nice, since you get at least 10 from dropping a 'mech, so the first called shot kills and gives you enough for the second called shot. If you boost pay early when the cost is low, you can easily come out ahead of spending cash on the morale upgrades.

    I can't imagine actually not getting the morale upgrades though just for RP reasons. Can you imagine being cooped up on a dropship for months on end with no rec facilities? Forget that noise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    The second bay is useful certainly. Eight seems to be roughly the ideal number of mechs to carry around (2 LRMboats, 2 alpha strike hunter-killers, 2 scouts, 2 other). With regard to the pilots, I do kind of wish the game randomized the starting group. Tight money at the start is a huge incentive to use the initial team, and XP gain quickly makes them better than anyone you could possibly hire - especially given the reputation barriers in the early game - so unless a freak event kills one, Behemoth, Dekker, Glitch, and Medusa are likely to get so far ahead that you'll reach into that well over and over again (this is actually a fairly common issue in tactical combat games of this nature).
    I got lucky in my first run and got quite a few non-annoying voices with non-stupid callsigns, but on my second game, I've got nothing but irritating voices and stupid callsigns for all but 1 pilot, and even then he's got a southern drawl that wasn't immediately apparent when I hired him, so the starting 5 did the first ~400 days on their own. Since the game lets you have 8 pilots and the CO as a baseline, I honestly can't see how anyone would ever need to get the barracks upgrades beyond RP reasons.

    I do contend that your suggested 'mech loadouts aren't ideal, but again, each to their own.

  6. - Top - End - #336
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    >get a dragon
    >go to do the most common field refit in the inner sphere to grand dragon
    >hardpoints are exacties, can't even fake it.
    >REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE



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    SamuraiGirl

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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    I've found this weird sort of tipping point in the difficulty curve. I can reliably field 3 skulls worth of mechs with skill pilots. But every time I try to take on a 3-skull contract, i end up outnumbered 2-to-1 and getting my face missiled in and half my mechs knocked down and cored to the point where I have to revert my save and try another mission. Anything easier and I pretty much steamroll it, but the moment I try for three skulls I just can't do jack, but I also can't get any better mechs because the missions I can do don't give me anything heavier than a Shadowhawk most of the time. It's kind of infuriating.
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    I ran into a weird bug yesterday where my repair queue wasn't advancing anymore. I tried everything from stopping all of my orders to running a contract with my B team mechs but in the end I needed to reload a save (which worked for me since I made a mistake just before and got my LRM jockey killed). I've also had my mechs not load in properly and appear as semi-translucent pink models a few times.

    Right now I'm running a LRM Shadow Hawk (since I don't have anything with over 3 missile hardpoints), a SRM centurion, a AC/Laser Cataphract and a AC Jagermech. I also have a PRC catapult but both it and the Jagermech are pretty underwhelming IMO. Next mission I'm trying a melee/DFA dragon instead of the centurion, that should be fun.
    Last edited by thorgrim29; 2018-05-17 at 09:27 AM.
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  9. - Top - End - #339
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by thorgrim29 View Post
    I ran into a weird bug yesterday where my repair queue wasn't advancing anymore. I tried everything from stopping all of my orders to running a contract with my B team mechs but in the end I needed to reload a save (which worked for me since I made a mistake just before and got my LRM jockey killed.

    Right now I'm running a LRM Shadow Hawk (since I don't have anything with over 3 missile hardpoints), a SRM centurion, a AC/Laser Cataphract and a AC Jagermech. I also have a PRC catapult but both it and the Jagermech are pretty underwhelming IMO. Next mission I'm trying a melee/DFA dragon instead of the centurion, that should be fun.
    My melee Dragon has made a great spotter/knockdown generator. It's got an AC/5 and a couple M Lasers, plus an MG and S Laser for post-punching crit-fishing. The usual pilot for it has Sensor Lock and Master Tactician to boot, so if he can't get into melee, he can lock onto something for my Catapult to missile. Dragon is a good mech, I'm saying basically.

    I'm also stuck with an AC Jaegermech. I stuck an AC/20 on it with some lasers, but when I have to use it (because other things are being repaired) it just makes me wish I had the missile variant. I've used one in skirmish and it's just murderous.
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  10. - Top - End - #340
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    The second bay is useful certainly. Eight seems to be roughly the ideal number of mechs to carry around (2 LRMboats, 2 alpha strike hunter-killers, 2 scouts, 2 other). With regard to the pilots, I do kind of wish the game randomized the starting group. Tight money at the start is a huge incentive to use the initial team, and XP gain quickly makes them better than anyone you could possibly hire - especially given the reputation barriers in the early game - so unless a freak event kills one, Behemoth, Dekker, Glitch, and Medusa are likely to get so far ahead that you'll reach into that well over and over again (this is actually a fairly common issue in tactical combat games of this nature).
    Pilot death is hardly a freak event. It's so common in this game that unless you're reloading constantly you're going to need enough Mechwarriors to fill at least a couple of lances. And even if they survive, your starting 5 will spend enough time in sickbay that pilots you hire later won't fall too far behind. They'll get to the point that it takes several missions to gain enough XP to raise a single stat one point while a rookie pilot will gain enough XP per mission to gain a couple of stat points.
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  11. - Top - End - #341
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by 9mm View Post
    >get a dragon
    >go to do the most common field refit in the inner sphere to grand dragon
    >hardpoints are exacties, can't even fake it.
    >REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE



    Please tell me there is a tech upgrade that fixes this.
    No, but it shouldn't be hard to mod in a Grand Dragon since changing a hardpoint on a copy of the regular Dragon .json is trivial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter Noventa View Post
    I've found this weird sort of tipping point in the difficulty curve. I can reliably field 3 skulls worth of mechs with skill pilots. But every time I try to take on a 3-skull contract, i end up outnumbered 2-to-1 and getting my face missiled in and half my mechs knocked down and cored to the point where I have to revert my save and try another mission. Anything easier and I pretty much steamroll it, but the moment I try for three skulls I just can't do jack, but I also can't get any better mechs because the missions I can do don't give me anything heavier than a Shadowhawk most of the time. It's kind of infuriating.
    Try aiming for assassination missions as the target is often 1 class heavier than your usual chaff. If you've already got heavies though, you should be able to get through most 3 skull missions without too much effort, certainly not losing 'mechs.

    Quote Originally Posted by thorgrim29 View Post
    Right now I'm running a LRM Shadow Hawk (since I don't have anything with over 3 missile hardpoints), a SRM centurion, a AC/Laser Cataphract and a AC Jagermech. I also have a PRC catapult but both it and the Jagermech are pretty underwhelming IMO. Next mission I'm trying a melee/DFA dragon instead of the centurion, that should be fun.
    What AC/s are you running on the Jager to find it underwhelming?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter Noventa View Post
    My melee Dragon has made a great spotter/knockdown generator. It's got an AC/5 and a couple M Lasers, plus an MG and S Laser for post-punching crit-fishing. The usual pilot for it has Sensor Lock and Master Tactician to boot, so if he can't get into melee, he can lock onto something for my Catapult to missile. Dragon is a good mech, I'm saying basically.

    I'm also stuck with an AC Jaegermech. I stuck an AC/20 on it with some lasers, but when I have to use it (because other things are being repaired) it just makes me wish I had the missile variant. I've used one in skirmish and it's just murderous.
    Obvious question - why MG and small laser instead of one or the other? As for the Dragon being good, well, have you tried a Shadow Hawk?

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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    Obvious question - why MG and small laser instead of one or the other? As for the Dragon being good, well, have you tried a Shadow Hawk?
    Not sure to be honest. I considered weight for a moment, but then i realized I don't really need another ammo bank so I might change it up. And I do have a Shadowhawk still, the starting one.

    As for assassinate missions, I go for them when they show up. The last one I saw was the one that got me an 80-ton tank as the target though.
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post

    What AC/s are you running on the Jager to find it underwhelming?
    I've tried the stock config, AC20+2xAC5 and now I'm on AC20+AC10. The range on the AC20 is too short and the AC10 by itself doesn't do much. One thing I've considered is loading it full of AC10s.
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  14. - Top - End - #344
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by thorgrim29 View Post
    I've tried the stock config, AC20+2xAC5 and now I'm on AC20+AC10. The range on the AC20 is too short and the AC10 by itself doesn't do much. One thing I've considered is loading it full of AC10s.
    AC10s are probably the best damage/weight ratio overall. My Jaeger is loaded with an AC/20 and 4 M Lasers and I mostly use the 20 for called shots due to ammo limitations when I do field the thing.
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by thorgrim29 View Post
    I've tried the stock config, AC20+2xAC5 and now I'm on AC20+AC10. The range on the AC20 is too short and the AC10 by itself doesn't do much. One thing I've considered is loading it full of AC10s.
    My non-LRM Jager ended up with a pair of AC/10's. Makes the Marauder piss itself in both fear and envy. Tried to put in quad AC/5's, but just couldn't find the tonnage. Unfortunately, it's the largest mech I'm aware of with 4x ballistic hardpoints. I'm contemplating trying a 3x AC/5 variant.
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  16. - Top - End - #346
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by mangosta71 View Post
    Pilot death is hardly a freak event. It's so common in this game that unless you're reloading constantly you're going to need enough Mechwarriors to fill at least a couple of lances. And even if they survive, your starting 5 will spend enough time in sickbay that pilots you hire later won't fall too far behind. They'll get to the point that it takes several missions to gain enough XP to raise a single stat one point while a rookie pilot will gain enough XP per mission to gain a couple of stat points.
    You're kidding right? I've got close to 150 hours into the game, in two playthroughs. I've reloaded to avoid pilot death precisely once - Medusa took an AC/20 shot directly to the head, something that is very low percentage. Headshots have a single digit chance of connecting unless you're downed in which case it manages to get almost to twenty in the very end game, and very few weapons have a chance of dealing enough damage to destroy the head capsule. Head injuries are common, since any errant missile that deals even 2 damage to the head can trigger one, but a pilot actually dying is unlikely. Sickbay time has a marginal impact. A single injury from a head hit or possibly a gang knockdown (in the late game it sometimes makes sense to take a knockdown when your assault isn't actually taking any real damage from the LRM barrage) heals rapidly, easily within the transit timeframe of 10-15 days.

    Pilots should never die due to sustained injury. The eject button exists, and more importantly, so does the withdraw button. But even beyond that, you should be winning missions within your tonnage class without losing more than an arm+torso on one or two mechs at worst. That's roughly where the profitability benchmark lies. If you're taking significantly more damage that on a regular basis you need to rethink your strategy. Likewise, having to carry additional mechwarriors annihilates your profit margin. A properly elite MechWarrior costs ~50,000 per month - as much as a whole lance of mechs put together. Carrying extra mechwarriors is the most significant cost you can impose on yourself.

    As for XP expenditure, you want, more than anything, to get your core piloting group all the way to the max. The various inherent abilities that come with increased ranks are astoundingly powerful. A full 10s MechWarrior never misses, is significantly harder to knock down, moves faster, has a +30 heat buffer, 3 extra health levels, indirect fires perfectly, can use LRMs at melee range, and has a called shot percentage of 82% to the CT using Precise Shot. In my current playthrough my Behemoth has all 10s and 75000 spare XP (Darius keeps yelling at me to spend it) with several others not far behind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter Noventa
    As for assassinate missions, I go for them when they show up. The last one I saw was the one that got me an 80-ton tank as the target though.
    That happens a lot in the early game. I'd suggest also trying for Capture Base and Recovery missions, and also Battle missions. These have a reasonable chance of having only a single enemy lance, and a single lance is more likely to have heavier mechs.

    Dragon is a good mech, I'm saying basically.
    The Dragon is a good mech at a very specific point on the curve: when you're just starting to get heavies. It's superior to a Quickdraw and tanky-ier than a Jagermech. It makes for an okay tank/alpha-striker against mediums. It lacks the heat management issues of a Black Knight. However, it is inferior to the Orion in essentially all possible ways and should be dropped the moment you get one, and should generally be dropped in favor of a number of other better heavies.
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    I won my first game, no reloads. Went through a lot of MechWarriors: none of the originals survived, and I think only one of the next 4. My 5th hire died on the last mission to an AC/20 headshot from you know who.

    Overall, fun game, good Battletech, but it isn't great that it is a one way trip towards heavier mechs. There should be some kind of pressure pushing tonnage down, either in the missions (fast enemies who try and escape) or strategy layer (maybe heavier mechs take more than one bay? Or a mandatory refurb time even without damage, so you have to cycle more mechs?) Those are my modding targets once the patches settle down.

    Just like Shadowrun, the campaign left me wanting more. Here's hoping lots more scenarios to come.
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    You're kidding right? I've got close to 150 hours into the game, in two playthroughs. I've reloaded to avoid pilot death precisely once - Medusa took an AC/20 shot directly to the head, something that is very low percentage. Headshots have a single digit chance of connecting unless you're downed in which case it manages to get almost to twenty in the very end game, and very few weapons have a chance of dealing enough damage to destroy the head capsule. Head injuries are common, since any errant missile that deals even 2 damage to the head can trigger one, but a pilot actually dying is unlikely. Sickbay time has a marginal impact. A single injury from a head hit or possibly a gang knockdown (in the late game it sometimes makes sense to take a knockdown when your assault isn't actually taking any real damage from the LRM barrage) heals rapidly, easily within the transit timeframe of 10-15 days.

    Pilots should never die due to sustained injury. The eject button exists, and more importantly, so does the withdraw button. But even beyond that, you should be winning missions within your tonnage class without losing more than an arm+torso on one or two mechs at worst. That's roughly where the profitability benchmark lies. If you're taking significantly more damage that on a regular basis you need to rethink your strategy. Likewise, having to carry additional mechwarriors annihilates your profit margin. A properly elite MechWarrior costs ~50,000 per month - as much as a whole lance of mechs put together. Carrying extra mechwarriors is the most significant cost you can impose on yourself.

    As for XP expenditure, you want, more than anything, to get your core piloting group all the way to the max. The various inherent abilities that come with increased ranks are astoundingly powerful. A full 10s MechWarrior never misses, is significantly harder to knock down, moves faster, has a +30 heat buffer, 3 extra health levels, indirect fires perfectly, can use LRMs at melee range, and has a called shot percentage of 82% to the CT using Precise Shot. In my current playthrough my Behemoth has all 10s and 75000 spare XP (Darius keeps yelling at me to spend it) with several others not far behind.
    I'm going to go out on a limb and say that your experience is in a tiny minority.

    After a couple priority missions, when all you have is mediums because that's all you've seen, but you start getting sent against multiple lances of enemy Mechs so your OpFor is double your tonnage, you regularly have situations in which 5+ enemies still get to activate after you've finished your turn. If they all pile onto the same target they will knock it down, which means they all go again and kill your pilot before you have a chance to eject. Also, I've taken multiple head hits in a mission; after one there are a bunch of weapons with headcapping potential. And pretty much any Mech can take your head off with a single punch if they get into melee range.

    As for "A full 10 Mechwarrior never misses", hit chance never exceeds 95%. I had one miss two such shots in a row; in the next to last mission, I had 2 targets that each only needed a tap to finish because I had split my force to secure multiple objectives, so the Mech that had LoS to both fired a laser at each of them and missed both. Which was irritating because the only Mech that hadn't acted was my missile boat and I had to dedicate an entire LRM20 to each of them or let them inflict a bunch more damage to my team.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RabbitHoleLost View Post
    Mango:you sick, twisted bastard <3
    Quote Originally Posted by Gryffon View Post
    I think Krade is protesting the use of the word mad in in the phrase mad scientist as it promotes ambiguity. Are they angry? Are they crazy? Some of both? Not to mention, it also often connotates some degree of evilness. In the future we should be more careful to use proper classification.

    Mango is a dastardly irate unhinged scientist, for realz.
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  19. - Top - End - #349
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by mangosta71 View Post
    After a couple priority missions, when all you have is mediums because that's all you've seen, but you start getting sent against multiple lances of enemy Mechs so your OpFor is double your tonnage, you regularly have situations in which 5+ enemies still get to activate after you've finished your turn. If they all pile onto the same target they will knock it down, which means they all go again and kill your pilot before you have a chance to eject. Also, I've taken multiple head hits in a mission; after one there are a bunch of weapons with headcapping potential. And pretty much any Mech can take your head off with a single punch if they get into melee range.
    It should be obvious from pretty much the first time it happens that in missions where you engage multiple lances your first priority is to split them and to engage them one at a time. This is literally the most important tactical principle in the whole game. Everything else is secondary. If you have 5+ enemies - especially enemies on screen and not guys firing LRMs from outside sensor range - activating after you've finished your turn you are doing it wrong, there's really no way around saying that.

    Sure you can take multiple head hits in a single mission, but your mechwarriors advance to 4 health very quickly, so even taking multiple head hits should not result in death. As for melee attacks, this rarely occurs unless you're deliberately inviting it. Anything you get into melee range should die before it gets a chance to counter, and the AI rarely goes for melee attacks unless out of weapons.

    As for "A full 10 Mechwarrior never misses", hit chance never exceeds 95%. I had one miss two such shots in a row; in the next to last mission, I had 2 targets that each only needed a tap to finish because I had split my force to secure multiple objectives, so the Mech that had LoS to both fired a laser at each of them and missed both. Which was irritating because the only Mech that hadn't acted was my missile boat and I had to dedicate an entire LRM20 to each of them or let them inflict a bunch more damage to my team.
    I was being fairly obviously hyperbolic. Yes occasional misses on high-percentage shots happen, particularly with autocannons due to some wonky-ness with physical obstacles, but they are unlikely. You should never depend on any single weapon to hit, and certainly not to kill (since even if it hits the called shot percentage never goes above 90%).

    Overall I do not think my experience is atypical. I reloaded a number of times in my first playthrough - to mitigate mech damage not pilot loss - but this was necessary mostly because I hadn't figured out bulwark properly and it took some time to learn to optimize my Precise Shot and Vigilance usage. Even then, it was mostly a mitigation measure, I could have used withdrawal if I'd wanted, but I was forcing myself to beat even extremely difficult enemy loadouts.

    As Drasius said 'easy game is easy.' This is not an especially hard tactical combat game. It's much less punishing than X-COM and allows nearly infinite grinding. It's not that cakewalk that say, MechCommander 2 was, but it's not especially hard.

    Overall, fun game, good Battletech, but it isn't great that it is a one way trip towards heavier mechs. There should be some kind of pressure pushing tonnage down, either in the missions (fast enemies who try and escape) or strategy layer (maybe heavier mechs take more than one bay? Or a mandatory refurb time even without damage, so you have to cycle more mechs?) Those are my modding targets once the patches settle down.
    Bigger mechs mean more armor, more damage, and more specialties and pretty much always have. It is the rare moment in any game in the Battletech universe where you don't want to field the most hulking monstrosity available, something that's been true at least as far back as MechWarrior 2 (which deliberately limited your tonnage as its primary difficulty measure). This is especially true in the tactical environment. The advantage of a faster unit is that it can get to places where the enemy is not, or has insufficient resources, but this is a strategic rather than tactical advantage and this game is largely devoid of strategic elements. Also, the map simply isn't big enough to make movement speed a major factor in any mission, and I don't know if you can change that without severe alterations to the engine.
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  20. - Top - End - #350
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by thorgrim29 View Post
    I've tried the stock config, AC20+2xAC5 and now I'm on AC20+AC10. The range on the AC20 is too short and the AC10 by itself doesn't do much. One thing I've considered is loading it full of AC10s.
    Triple AC/5 is pretty good, as is dual AC/5's and a bunch of lasers (which is exactly how to build a Catapult K2 because PPC's are sub-optimal), though It will run a touch hot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hunter Noventa View Post
    AC10s are probably the best damage/weight ratio overall. My Jaeger is loaded with an AC/20 and 4 M Lasers and I mostly use the 20 for called shots due to ammo limitations when I do field the thing.
    AC/20 is a 14 ton weapon + 2 tons of ammo is 16 tons for 100 damage - 6.25 damage per ton
    AC/10 is a 12 ton weapon + a light load of 1 ton of ammo is 13 tons for 60 damage - 4.6 damage per ton
    AC/5 is an 8 ton weapon + 1 ton ammo is 9 tons for 45 damage - 5 damage per ton
    LRM 15 is a 7 ton weapon + 2 tons of ammo is 9 tons for 60 damage - 6.66 damage per ton

    The /10 is ... not great. It's got decent damage concentration, but it's generally a bad deal compared to the AC/5 unless you get one of the + or ++ versions with extra damage that let it headcap fully armoured 'mechs ('mechs have 61 armour + internal structure, base AC/10 does 60 damage). If you take heat into account, the /10 only gets worse. All this despite it getting a 20% damage bump compared to TT...

    I'm not sure why you're not using that /20 every turn it's in range, 10 shots should be more than enough and if it isn't, well, add more ammo! You don't spend 16 tons on a weapon only to rarely fire it.

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckGuy View Post
    I won my first game, no reloads. Went through a lot of MechWarriors: none of the originals survived, and I think only one of the next 4. My 5th hire died on the last mission to an AC/20 headshot from you know who.

    Overall, fun game, good Battletech, but it isn't great that it is a one way trip towards heavier mechs. There should be some kind of pressure pushing tonnage down, either in the missions (fast enemies who try and escape) or strategy layer (maybe heavier mechs take more than one bay? Or a mandatory refurb time even without damage, so you have to cycle more mechs?) Those are my modding targets once the patches settle down.

    Just like Shadowrun, the campaign left me wanting more. Here's hoping lots more scenarios to come.
    It's only a 1 way trip to heavier machines if you want it to be. People have done the entire campaign never using anything heavier than a Firestarter, so there's plenty of scope to not just field a Steiner scout lance every mission.

    I'm honestly not sure how people lose so many pilots though? I "lost" my CO twice in my first playthough (920 days), once to getting his 'mech blown out from under him when trying to take on a pair of Stalkers a heavy and a Griffin while still rocking a Dragon and the starting Shad/Cent/Vindy and the other was due to consecutive AC/20 headshots from a demolisher, despite being braced, having 4 evasion and being at long range in an otherwise pristine King Crab.

    The later nobody can do much about, RNG has just decided that it's your time, but the former I got greedy and should have punched out and not banked on the AI not being willing to Alpha both Stalkers again when they were already pushing shutdown thresholds.

  21. - Top - End - #351
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    It's only a 1 way trip to heavier machines if you want it to be. People have done the entire campaign never using anything heavier than a Firestarter, so there's plenty of scope to not just field a Steiner scout lance every mission.
    This sort of thing is a player undertaking a specific self-imposed challenge for themselves. That can be quite fun - I've had great experiences with no-stimpack runs through various iterations of Fallout - but they aren't part of the actual incentives imposed by the design. The reality of Battletech is that even on missions where the game claims speed is needed - like Ambush Convoy and Escort missions - you're easiest path to victory is served by bringing three of the heaviest mechs you can and perhaps a single spotter. Even in a mission like the story one where you have a secondary objective to save the barracks that actually does require you to cross a significant distance rapidly you can't bring a super light mech because there's a full enemy lance in the way that will chew you up if you try it and a Grasshopper can still make it there. In fact, from essentially the minute it becomes available a Grasshoppper provides all the mobility you're ever going to need. When a 70-ton heavy is the ideal late-game scout the incentives are clearly for more mass.

    A big part of the problem is that the game allows you deploy four mechs only, whichever four mechs you choose. The only means to increase your overall tonnage is to bring bigger mechs. One Atlas or four Commandos opens up a whole bunch of decision trees, one Atlas versus one Commando is a no-brainer in favor of the Atlas. And I'm pretty sure this particular limitation is intrinsic to the engine and would be extremely difficult to change - since there's no reason for it to be this way otherwise. MechCommander 2, a game that is old enough to drive, allowed you to field a whole bunch of puny mechs if you wanted to do so and even to increase your numbers in mission through instant salvage (which was super-cheesy but you could totally start a mission with four mechs and end with nine in some of the later missions).
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  22. - Top - End - #352
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    This sort of thing is a player undertaking a specific self-imposed challenge for themselves. That can be quite fun - I've had great experiences with no-stimpack runs through various iterations of Fallout - but they aren't part of the actual incentives imposed by the design. The reality of Battletech is that even on missions where the game claims speed is needed - like Ambush Convoy and Escort missions - you're easiest path to victory is served by bringing three of the heaviest mechs you can and perhaps a single spotter. Even in a mission like the story one where you have a secondary objective to save the barracks that actually does require you to cross a significant distance rapidly you can't bring a super light mech because there's a full enemy lance in the way that will chew you up if you try it and a Grasshopper can still make it there. In fact, from essentially the minute it becomes available a Grasshoppper provides all the mobility you're ever going to need. When a 70-ton heavy is the ideal late-game scout the incentives are clearly for more mass.

    A big part of the problem is that the game allows you deploy four mechs only, whichever four mechs you choose. The only means to increase your overall tonnage is to bring bigger mechs. One Atlas or four Commandos opens up a whole bunch of decision trees, one Atlas versus one Commando is a no-brainer in favor of the Atlas. And I'm pretty sure this particular limitation is intrinsic to the engine and would be extremely difficult to change - since there's no reason for it to be this way otherwise. MechCommander 2, a game that is old enough to drive, allowed you to field a whole bunch of puny mechs if you wanted to do so and even to increase your numbers in mission through instant salvage (which was super-cheesy but you could totally start a mission with four mechs and end with nine in some of the later missions).
    Yeah, the point is that you don't HAVE to field 4 assaults, you can still successfully complete all the missions with only lights if you so choose, so it's all player choice. There's a single point where you HAVE to field an assault and that's not even your guys. The mistake you're making is thinking that heavier = better, and while that's totally valid, especially for house Steiner, it's not really true. Sure, fielding 4 assaults caters to a lower skill floor where you can just point them in a general direction and blast your way to victory, but it's no more or less valid than taking fast mediums/heavies and flanking or a bunch of lights and backstabbing.

    You have a leopard, it has 4 'mech cradles, and a 400 ton drop weight limit. Unless you move to a bigger ship like a Union, you're going to be dropping 4 'mechs. Even if we were dropping down in a Union, you'd have 12 bays and you could field 12 'mechs, there'd still be people who'd want to bring 12 assaults.

    Limiting drops any other way is really silly and goes against the lore. Even if you could find a reason to limit it to drop tonnage with no number limit, if you're doing straight battle missions (which is what 90% of the random missions are), why would you not take the machines most suited to stand-up slugging matches?

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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    you can still successfully complete all the missions with only lights if you so choose
    ... I don't feel like that's strictly true. Evasion and positioning, in my experience only goes so far - sooner or later you will have armor or die.

    Could be wrong though, I guess. Or plain bad =D
    Last edited by Kaptin Keen; 2018-05-18 at 12:26 AM.

  24. - Top - End - #354
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    Yeah, the point is that you don't HAVE to field 4 assaults, you can still successfully complete all the missions with only lights if you so choose, so it's all player choice. There's a single point where you HAVE to field an assault and that's not even your guys. The mistake you're making is thinking that heavier = better, and while that's totally valid, especially for house Steiner, it's not really true. Sure, fielding 4 assaults caters to a lower skill floor where you can just point them in a general direction and blast your way to victory, but it's no more or less valid than taking fast mediums/heavies and flanking or a bunch of lights and backstabbing.
    The ultimate goal of the game is to maximize your monetary output - at least, failing to do so is the only way you can lose. Optimization is therefore fairly simple: utilize whatever strategy to minimize the damage you suffer and maximize the gain. In essentially all scenarios this is filled by fielding the heaviest mechs you have available at any given point in time (there's some variability centered around chassis availability). Any other approach is making the game more difficult on yourself. There is no in-game reason to do so, it's purely a player choice. This game has a fairly clear progression: more tonnage, more LRMs, that dominates.

    Limiting drops any other way is really silly and goes against the lore. Even if you could find a reason to limit it to drop tonnage with no number limit, if you're doing straight battle missions (which is what 90% of the random missions are), why would you not take the machines most suited to stand-up slugging matches?
    The lore is a paltry obstacle, and in any case, the game could have sidestepped that easily by allowing you to drop the Argo with as many mechs as you want. A limit based on total tonnage allows for much more tactical flexibility to play around and experiment with alternative tactics. The game, as currently configured, has one true strategy: Bulwark+LRM+Knockdown, everything else is substantially less efficient. The ability to introduce more mechs into the mix would at least theoretically alter the scenario. For instance, running a large number of lighter mechs might make splitting your force a viable tactic rather than something you only do in a handful of highly specific story missions (and then only to access secondary objectives for purely fluff purposes).

    Limiting drops by tonnage has been used before. It was done in MechCommander 2 at least (I never played MechCommander, but that probably did too) and there where scenarios in that game where you thought about your deployment more as a result.

    One of the ways this matters is that this lack of tactical variability means that the multiplayer meta is extremely limited currently because one approach dominates.
    Last edited by Mechalich; 2018-05-17 at 11:57 PM.
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    ... I don't feel like that's strictly true. Evasion and positioning, in my experience only goes so far - sooner or later you will have armor or die.

    Could be wrong though, I guess. I plain bad =D
    Someone beat the game with all lights within days of the game being out. While that isn't all missions (due to random gen, etc.) it's certainly a fair subset of them.

  26. - Top - End - #356
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    The ultimate goal of the game is to maximize your monetary output - at least, failing to do so is the only way you can lose. Optimization is therefore fairly simple: utilize whatever strategy to minimize the damage you suffer and maximize the gain. In essentially all scenarios this is filled by fielding the heaviest mechs you have available at any given point in time (there's some variability centered around chassis availability). Any other approach is making the game more difficult on yourself. There is no in-game reason to do so, it's purely a player choice. This game has a fairly clear progression: more tonnage, more LRMs, that dominates.
    Not really, you can easily game the system by stacking evasion and to-hit penalties on lights which will force the OpFor to only fire a single weapon at a target. Just because some people can't think past putting the heaviest 'mechs on the field and making a beeline towards the objective doesn't mean it's that way for everyone.

    Having player choice be a thing rather than be hit by arbitrary limitations like drop weight is a good thing. If you want to use lights or mediums, you can definately do so, there is absolutely nothing stopping you, so why do you think the game should need to artificially restrict you to using them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    The lore is a paltry obstacle, and in any case, the game could have sidestepped that easily by allowing you to drop the Argo with as many mechs as you want. A limit based on total tonnage allows for much more tactical flexibility to play around and experiment with alternative tactics. The game, as currently configured, has one true strategy: Bulwark+LRM+Knockdown, everything else is substantially less efficient. The ability to introduce more mechs into the mix would at least theoretically alter the scenario. For instance, running a large number of lighter mechs might make splitting your force a viable tactic rather than something you only do in a handful of highly specific story missions (and then only to access secondary objectives for purely fluff purposes).

    Limiting drops by tonnage has been used before. It was done in MechCommander 2 at least (I never played MechCommander, but that probably did too) and there where scenarios in that game where you thought about your deployment more as a result.

    One of the ways this matters is that this lack of tactical variability means that the multiplayer meta is extremely limited currently because one approach dominates.
    No, the lore is the only thing that has allowed Battletech to survive this long with such a dedicated fanbase.

    As for Bulwark and knockdown, if you think that's the "one true strategy", then you have missed a great deal of the gameplay. It's certainly got the lowest skill floor, but it's not optimal.

    As for more 'mechs, the devs repeatedly stated that more 'mechs were trialled but made the combat drag out and take hours to resolve. This should be common knowledge to anyone who has played TT, either megamek or actual pen and paper.

    As for splitting your forces, isn't your main argument that you want more 'mechs to compensate for lesser tonnage? If so, then you could do the exact same thing with fewer 'mechs. Send 1 Atlas instead of 4 Commandos.

    Tonnage limits by drops never made a lick of sense (except 2 missions in the original MechCommander: one where you were limited to a Rotunda or Swiftwind due to being dropped via a civvy cargo plane or the one where you were meeting with the spy) and would make even less sense for a merc company with their own Leopard and nobody to answer to.

    If you really want to make heavies and/or assaults less common (which should be the case, given whenn and where we are), then adjusting the maintenance and repair costs appropriately would be a much better measure.

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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by thracian View Post
    Someone beat the game with all lights within days of the game being out. While that isn't all missions (due to random gen, etc.) it's certainly a fair subset of them.
    Well, yes. And a paladin/priest duo solo'd that 40 man raid dungeon in World of Warcraft. Hell, I'm even sure I myself could win the game using only lights, if I was willing to adapt some sort of kite strategy and use it exclusively for everything (not saying a kite strategy specifically is how you'd do it - but off the top of my head it feels like the only option: Have greater speed, longer range, win game).

    So I'm not trying to say it's impossible.

    I'm trying to say it feels like, if you want to play the actual game, rather than figure out a way to cheese it ..... then, possibly, it's impossible, or close to it.

    And I'm not going to trade any words over what cheese is, or whether it's the more correct way to do things, or whether a viable strategy is good or bad.

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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    It should be obvious from pretty much the first time it happens that in missions where you engage multiple lances your first priority is to split them and to engage them one at a time. This is literally the most important tactical principle in the whole game. Everything else is secondary. If you have 5+ enemies - especially enemies on screen and not guys firing LRMs from outside sensor range - activating after you've finished your turn you are doing it wrong, there's really no way around saying that.
    Sure, ideally you split them. But if it's a battle mission, you move up to engage the enemy, and enemy reinforcements drop in behind you close enough that they start on screen and in weapon range, you're kind of ****ed. You can either try to flee in one direction (exposing your back for at least a round) or rotate the battle so that you're not in a crossfire. Either way, you're going to take a LOT of damage. The AI DOES concentrate fire on a target that it can take out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Sure you can take multiple head hits in a single mission, but your mechwarriors advance to 4 health very quickly, so even taking multiple head hits should not result in death. As for melee attacks, this rarely occurs unless you're deliberately inviting it. Anything you get into melee range should die before it gets a chance to counter, and the AI rarely goes for melee attacks unless out of weapons.
    You're missing the point. If you take a single point of damage to the head, suddenly an AC/10 is a headcapper. Get hit by a medium laser? Suddenly large lasers, PPCs, and AC/5s are headcappers. All of those are very common weapons. And since the AI typically outnumbers you at least 2:1, it gets a lot of opportunities to get one of those fatal headshots.

    You lost a single pilot in 2 playthroughs? You're insanely lucky; most players have lost a pilot before they get the Argo.
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  29. - Top - End - #359
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by mangosta71 View Post
    You lost a single pilot in 2 playthroughs? You're insanely lucky; most players have lost a pilot before they get the Argo.
    Most players are bad.

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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    What houserules do you guys use?

    I'm on my second playthrough, and I'm using the following:
    - No adding armor to your mechs
    - No +weapons
    - No called shots where possible (use multitargeting against prone targets), otherwise target highest armor location.
    - Jumpjets can only be added to mechs that have them in canon.

    I thought of banning bulwark as well, but considering how much the Ai uses it lategame, I think it might be turning the difficulty up a tad too much. Might mod-nerf it if I ever get around to it.
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