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  1. - Top - End - #451
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    Really?
    This:
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    looks more like this:
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    than this:
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    ?
    I can see how you might've gotten that out of what I typed, but what I actually was thinking about was this image:

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    Because the lawyers were clearly aiming for "anything that vaguely like a chickenwalker". The King crab came to mind first because I was complaining about a fight with one, but it had a 50/50 chance of coming up "Locust" or "Marauder" any other classical Chickenwalker.

    Also, there's an actual drawing of the Matar with only one dorsal cannon, and the in game King Crab has much different style lines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    As to the canon being so willing to service drama like a cheap harlot, well, yeah, that's my chief complaint about the game. The last thing we need is more super special snowflake forgotten star league era rubbish being in the hands of periphery nobodies. I mean, I totally understand why we have a flood of assault 'mechs, why the storage space of my dropship holds a battalion+ of 'mechs and why we get to go raid a castle brian knockoff, but it's already stretching willing suspension of disbelief to the breaking point. Adding to that with a somehow surviving copy of a a failed experimental that was a bad idea 250 years ago with superior tech on the other side of the setting 1000+ lightyears away pushes beyond bad fanfiction.
    I get where you're coming from, but I also think that "last bosses" should be special in some functionally unique way. I mean, which would you rather- something crazy that defeats the most likely and easiest path through the game, or something you splash to death with LRMs without losing armor?

    In terms of the canon, I see Battletech as something of a mortally damaged franchise. It can still potentially be saved, but it needs a massive reboot that cuts out certain flawed parts of the canon. I feel like this game was trying to be that, but they ran into the same problem anything Battletech runs into, that being that nothing meaningful can happen before Pi Day, 2021. (I have that marked in my calendar as "Macross freedom day")

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    Neither, I was refering to Alent's "suggestion" that they should have used a Matar, which was a failed Amaris era superheavy 'mech. Now that you mention it though, it would have been more believable than that idiotic virus sub-plot. I can only shake my head at how anyone thought that was a good idea.
    Yeaaaaah, the Locura was a pure disaster. I get they wrote themselves into a massive corner with the Iberia and needed an asspull to get out of it, but introducing Skynet to a universe where AI never happened is NOT the way to go about it...
    Last edited by Alent; Yesterday at 08:42 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #452
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alent View Post
    I can see how you might've gotten that out of what I typed, but what I actually was thinking about was this image:

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    Because the lawyers were clearly aiming for "anything that vaguely like a chickenwalker". The King crab came to mind first because I was complaining about a fight with one, but it had a 50/50 chance of coming up "Locust" or "Marauder" any other classical Chickenwalker.

    Also, there's an actual drawing of the Matar with only one dorsal cannon, and the in game King Crab has much different style lines.



    I get where you're coming from, but I also think that "last bosses" should be special in some functionally unique way. I mean, which would you rather- something crazy that defeats the most likely and easiest path through the game, or something you splash to death with LRMs without losing armor?

    In terms of the canon, I see Battletech as something of a mortally damaged franchise. It can still potentially be saved, but it needs a massive reboot that cuts out certain flawed parts of the canon. I feel like this game was trying to be that, but they ran into the same problem anything Battletech runs into, that being that nothing meaningful can happen before Pi Day, 2021. (I have that marked in my calendar as "Macross freedom day")

    Edit:


    Yeaaaaah, the Locura was a pure disaster. I get they wrote themselves into a massive corner with the Iberia and needed an asspull to get out of it, but introducing Skynet to a universe where AI never happened is NOT the way to go about it...
    Considering that somehow, the Matar is basically the basis for the Stone Rhino (though given the clanners tendancy to go into apoplexy at the mere mention of the RWR or anything Amaris related, I'm not sure how that happened), they're both equally a knockff of the Destroid thing.

    As for B-Tech desperately needing a reboot, I think you're right there, but the main issue I see is that you risk turning away the small but incredibly devoted grognards that masquerade as a fanbase who have kept it alive all these years. There's already a heavy fractured base between 3025/pre-clan purists, clan only fans, pre-jihad supporters along with the players who just kept following along with the timeline and are all up to date in the 3140's (or whatever the current timeline is). Full disclosure - 3025 is my personal favourite, but while I have absolutely no issue with the clanners and even enjoy a bit of clan on clan shenanigans, the jihad or anything past that just doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned. If you turned away the rabid fans (and to a certain extent, a rather large portion of the small following they have left are very dedicated), would you be able to gather enough new blood to keep the franchise ticking? Maybe.

    The best modern example I can think of is how GW handled the WHFB reboot into AoS and while it was eventually successful('ish), it also looked like it was going to fail for quite a while too and there are still people who'll happily rant for hours on end about how AoS is the greatest injustice to ever happen to anyone in the history of the universe. Battletech is barely hanging on by the skin of its teeth compared to the (relative to industry size) juggernaught that GW is, they can't afford to alienate large swaths of their fanbase and survive very long if at all.

    I'm also not so sure that getting the HG Unseen back will help if they decide to go the reboot route. I must admit to not personally seeing the massive appeal of getting the Mad/Whammer/Archer/Rifleman/PHawk back, but I know there's a large amount of fans who have serious boners for them, but as part of the franchise? I'd actually say they've done more harm than good over the years and should have simply had their factories destroyed and the rest of the universe could have moved on without all the hassle they brought with them. Still, I aknowledge that for many, that would be a mortal sin and would feel the same way about that idea as I do about people ****ting all over the timeline for the sake of getting shiny new toys.

  3. - Top - End - #453
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    In the novels, you can see the breakpoint where HG started causing problems for B-Tech; D.R.T. in particular has the merc company it follows lose all the Unseen designs they were fielding in combat. By that point the timeline was post Clan-invasion, when by the lore destroying a Mech factory would have been seen as a war crime even if someone managed to attack a world where one was with a sufficient force to level it. They really couldn't just get rid of all of them, as the lore had also established that those Mechs were extremely common.
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  4. - Top - End - #454
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by mangosta71 View Post
    In the novels, you can see the breakpoint where HG started causing problems for B-Tech; D.R.T. in particular has the merc company it follows lose all the Unseen designs they were fielding in combat. By that point the timeline was post Clan-invasion, when by the lore destroying a Mech factory would have been seen as a war crime even if someone managed to attack a world where one was with a sufficient force to level it. They really couldn't just get rid of all of them, as the lore had also established that those Mechs were extremely common.
    Taking out 'mech factories was never a war crime, though generally speaking if you were doing a proper attack instead of a raid, you wanted to take the facility intact. As for their frequency, well, that's easily fixed since if the factories go, then the supply of spares dries up and you end up with what happened to so many other designs (that are all unbelievably common in our little region of the periphery because HBS decided to a large degree that gameplay fun trumps sticking to the lore). The Spider is a classic example, it's meant to be extremely rare, yet my company alone has personaly disabled roughly every single Spider in the Inner Sphere in their last ~3 years of scooting arounda bunch of backwater hillbilly planets.

    The issue comes down to a couple of things: 1) fighting the exact same 16 machines over and over again would get boring fast 2) most of the super common designs are the Unseen (especially for the Taurians, their TOE is almost entirely Unseen for some reason), so if they're off the table, your options really are limited.

    "Realistically" for whatever that word is worth in regards to battletech, going by the RAT's we'd probably never see the Spider, King Crab, Cataphract, Black Knight, Cicada, Commando (not outside Lyran space who're on the other side of the Sphere), Jenner (outside of the Combine, who, again, are on the other side of the IS), Panther (outside the Combine, who, again, are on the other side of the IS) and the Highlander would be getting pretty close to being extinct too. The Catapult isn't exactly super common in the IS either to the point where it would be a little odd to see 'em, though the Cappies do have some. That's 9 out of the 35 (~25%) 'mechs we see in game being basically non-existant in the IS, let alone in the periphery. If you thought you were seeing nothing but a few common designs, just wait until we cut out a huge chunk of the ones we've got!

  5. - Top - End - #455
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    Taking out 'mech factories was never a war crime, though generally speaking if you were doing a proper attack instead of a raid, you wanted to take the facility intact. As for their frequency, well, that's easily fixed since if the factories go, then the supply of spares dries up and you end up with what happened to so many other designs (that are all unbelievably common in our little region of the periphery because HBS decided to a large degree that gameplay fun trumps sticking to the lore). The Spider is a classic example, it's meant to be extremely rare, yet my company alone has personaly disabled roughly every single Spider in the Inner Sphere in their last ~3 years of scooting arounda bunch of backwater hillbilly planets.

    The issue comes down to a couple of things: 1) fighting the exact same 16 machines over and over again would get boring fast 2) most of the super common designs are the Unseen (especially for the Taurians, their TOE is almost entirely Unseen for some reason), so if they're off the table, your options really are limited.

    "Realistically" for whatever that word is worth in regards to battletech, going by the RAT's we'd probably never see the Spider, King Crab, Cataphract, Black Knight, Cicada, Commando (not outside Lyran space who're on the other side of the Sphere), Jenner (outside of the Combine, who, again, are on the other side of the IS), Panther (outside the Combine, who, again, are on the other side of the IS) and the Highlander would be getting pretty close to being extinct too. The Catapult isn't exactly super common in the IS either to the point where it would be a little odd to see 'em, though the Cappies do have some. That's 9 out of the 35 (~25%) 'mechs we see in game being basically non-existant in the IS, let alone in the periphery. If you thought you were seeing nothing but a few common designs, just wait until we cut out a huge chunk of the ones we've got!
    Yes, destruction Mech factories was not considered a war crime - although it was pretty stupid since it was far more valuable to take intact and use it yourself. Attacking a JumpShip KF drive facility was the war crime pre-Helm memory core.
    Last edited by Olinser; Yesterday at 10:51 PM.

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  6. - Top - End - #456
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alent View Post
    I


    Yeaaaaah, the Locura was a pure disaster. I get they wrote themselves into a massive corner with the Iberia and needed an asspull to get out of it, but introducing Skynet to a universe where AI never happened is NOT the way to go about it...
    Speaking of the Iberia, did Ostergaard get his revenge after all? A 6,000 ton dropship impacting the surface of a planet at what was presumably maximum acceleration is going to do a serious number on the local ecosystem.
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    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

  7. - Top - End - #457
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Yea, I'm kiiiinda wondering why the Rebellion wasn't stomped flat by literally all five houses for destroying that KT drive ship with the Locura. That there was a nasty virus? I can accept. It wasn't sentient or AI of any kind, it was just... a really virulent computer virus. Yea, it was an ass-pull, but it was a vaguely hand-wavable one.

    Not destroying the rim upstarts for destroying a jump-capable ship? That's... far, far less believable.
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  8. - Top - End - #458
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    People blow up Dropships all the time, that's no big deal. It's killing JumpShips that is considered a war crime. Fortress-class dropships are big and nasty, but they aren't Jump-capable WarShips (though they're only twice the size of a Union and the Restoration had an entire fleet, so the line of 'we have nothing that can stop a Fortress rings hollow).

    Edit: They are expensive though, so the Taurians are out a lot of money from losing it. Presumably they cant complain too loudly though because of all the awful crap Ostergaard did to civilians in their name already.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; Today at 12:04 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #459
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    People blow up Dropships all the time, that's no big deal. It's killing JumpShips that is considered a war crime. Fortress-class dropships are big and nasty, but they aren't Jump-capable WarShips (though they're only twice the size of a Union and the Restoration had an entire fleet, so the line of 'we have nothing that can stop a Fortress rings hollow).

    Edit: They are expensive though, so the Taurians are out a lot of money from losing it. Presumably they cant complain too loudly though because of all the awful crap Ostergaard did to civilians in their name already.
    Not to mention the fact that when he was killed Ostergaard was already in explicit violation of a direct order from the Taurians to retreat. If anything the Taurians should be glad they aren't being held responsible for failing to properly keep Ostergaard under control.

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  10. - Top - End - #460
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Osterguard was basically a pirate since he made it rather clear that he's abandoned any pretense of being under orders from Taurian high command and has effectively deserted/absconded with their toys.

    Speaking of the "Oh noes! We can't stop a Fortress!" thing, I wonder how many aerofighters the Restoration had, 'cause a Fortress doesn't just appear in atmosphere, you should have plenty of time to muster your aeros and any 'mechbuster atmo's as you've got pilots for. Hell, it only carries a battallion of troops, let me sub-contract any dispossessed Restoration mecharriors, they can take their pick of the battallion plus of toys I've got sitting in the cargo hold of the Argo and we'll match 'em 1:1 in numbers.

  11. - Top - End - #461
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    Osterguard was basically a pirate since he made it rather clear that he's abandoned any pretense of being under orders from Taurian high command and has effectively deserted/absconded with their toys.

    Speaking of the "Oh noes! We can't stop a Fortress!" thing, I wonder how many aerofighters the Restoration had, 'cause a Fortress doesn't just appear in atmosphere, you should have plenty of time to muster your aeros and any 'mechbuster atmo's as you've got pilots for. Hell, it only carries a battallion of troops, let me sub-contract any dispossessed Restoration mecharriors, they can take their pick of the battallion plus of toys I've got sitting in the cargo hold of the Argo and we'll match 'em 1:1 in numbers.
    I haven't completed the campaign yet - but ... is there ever any real mention of the capabilities of the Restoration army? The vibe I'm getting is that the mercenary company is actually their main battlemech force, and the army is mainly infantry, tanks and so on - rather in keeping with the periphery 'thing', to my mind. Meaning, again, that they might actually have no way to deal with a fortress. No aerofighters, and no mech force capable of doing anything about a battalion.

    Maybe?!

  12. - Top - End - #462
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    I haven't completed the campaign yet - but ... is there ever any real mention of the capabilities of the Restoration army? The vibe I'm getting is that the mercenary company is actually their main battlemech force, and the army is mainly infantry, tanks and so on - rather in keeping with the periphery 'thing', to my mind. Meaning, again, that they might actually have no way to deal with a fortress. No aerofighters, and no mech force capable of doing anything about a battalion.

    Maybe?!
    I certainly didn't get that impression, there's one bit later where you see quite a few dropships coming in and while not unheard of, you don't normally go to that much effort for goundpounders or treadheads. IIRC, the little slideshow at the end also has quite a few Restoration forces getting their giant robbit akshun happening. Our little company of misfits is the seal team 6 strikeforce while the restoration provides the faceless redshirts.

    It'd be a little odd not to have any aeros, but again, periphery, so it wouldn't be totally unreasonable either.

  13. - Top - End - #463
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaptin Keen View Post
    I haven't completed the campaign yet - but ... is there ever any real mention of the capabilities of the Restoration army? The vibe I'm getting is that the mercenary company is actually their main battlemech force, and the army is mainly infantry, tanks and so on - rather in keeping with the periphery 'thing', to my mind. Meaning, again, that they might actually have no way to deal with a fortress. No aerofighters, and no mech force capable of doing anything about a battalion.

    Maybe?!
    By the time you end the game, you've got enough mechs in your bay, probably most of them assaults or high-end heavies, to field your own Company (that is to say, three lances). Granted, you might be scrounging for decent pilots if you have been focusing on the Fabulous Four the whole time, but I figure *somewhere* in the Restoration has to be another eight decent mech pilots, who'd probably pay YOU for the privilege of piloting a Highlander or Stalker or an Atlas or maybe even a King Crab. Hell, there's bound to be someone willing to risk jumping into a Banshee just for the sheer bragging rights. "Yea, that's right. During the Restoration, I piloted an Assault! And not just any assault, a Banshee. And yanno what? I'm still here. So unless you can make the same claim, who do *you* think is the better 'mech pilot? Yea... thought so."

    Granted, the Leopard can only shuttle down one lance at a time, but there's nothing saying you can't bloody well land the Argo or run multiple shuttle runs with the Leopard. So that's a company vs a battalion, so 3:1 odds. You've faced that before, especially on 4.5 and 5 skull missions. And not ALL of them are going to be assaults. If they're lucky, they've got one full lance worth of assaults, each one probably leading three different lances of heavies as the Commander Company, the rest of the mechs are probably going to be lights and mediums, which you should be able to mop up. Lady Arano could back you up with some SRM boats, twin AC/20 tanks, and 3x PPC Shreck vehicles to support you against his vehicles. Bring a single Jagermech with you with the twin AC/2's over AC/5's to keep the lawn darts off your arse and to snipe any damn alleycats before they can do some actual damage sniping back.

    Now THAT's a fight I would've loved to play out.
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Also, just like your own force grows in power over time, so does the Restoration Army. With each Founding House and planet you liberate, Kamea's forces grow considerably more powerful. Additionally, keep in mind that you do a lot of missions for the Restoration during the course of the game - and they get all the salvage you don't get. That's a pretty powerful force right there.

    It'd be a little odd not to have any aeros, but again, periphery, so it wouldn't be totally unreasonable either.
    Aeros are a problematic element in the Battletech universe and pretending they don't exist (which is common in games set in the universe generally) seems to work better than trying to deal with the problems they create.
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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    Granted, the Leopard can only shuttle down one lance at a time, but there's nothing saying you can't bloody well land the Argo or run multiple shuttle runs with the Leopard. So that's a company vs a battalion, so 3:1 odds. You've faced that before, especially on 4.5 and 5 skull missions. And not ALL of them are going to be assaults. If they're lucky, they've got one full lance worth of assaults, each one probably leading three different lances of heavies as the Commander Company, the rest of the mechs are probably going to be lights and mediums, which you should be able to mop up. Lady Arano could back you up with some SRM boats, twin AC/20 tanks, and 3x PPC Shreck vehicles to support you against his vehicles. Bring a single Jagermech with you with the twin AC/2's over AC/5's to keep the lawn darts off your arse and to snipe any damn alleycats before they can do some actual damage sniping back.

    Now THAT's a fight I would've loved to play out.
    Actually, it's a plot point that you can't land the Argo. Well, not if you expect to take off again without extensive repairs, at which point you're deliberately crashing the Argo (with style), not landing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Aeros are a problematic element in the Battletech universe and pretending they don't exist (which is common in games set in the universe generally) seems to work better than trying to deal with the problems they create.
    The amount of times people try to do a combined aerotech / battlemech campaign only to stop after the first game would be quite high I imagine. Aerotech works well enough in its own setting, but I can't say it works super well when you need to combine it with battlemechs.

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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    As for B-Tech desperately needing a reboot, I think you're right there, but the main issue I see is that you risk turning away the small but incredibly devoted grognards that masquerade as a fanbase who have kept it alive all these years. There's already a heavy fractured base between 3025/pre-clan purists, clan only fans, pre-jihad supporters along with the players who just kept following along with the timeline and are all up to date in the 3140's (or whatever the current timeline is). Full disclosure - 3025 is my personal favourite, but while I have absolutely no issue with the clanners and even enjoy a bit of clan on clan shenanigans, the jihad or anything past that just doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned. If you turned away the rabid fans (and to a certain extent, a rather large portion of the small following they have left are very dedicated), would you be able to gather enough new blood to keep the franchise ticking? Maybe.

    The best modern example I can think of is how GW handled the WHFB reboot into AoS and while it was eventually successful('ish), it also looked like it was going to fail for quite a while too and there are still people who'll happily rant for hours on end about how AoS is the greatest injustice to ever happen to anyone in the history of the universe. Battletech is barely hanging on by the skin of its teeth compared to the (relative to industry size) juggernaught that GW is, they can't afford to alienate large swaths of their fanbase and survive very long if at all.

    I'm also not so sure that getting the HG Unseen back will help if they decide to go the reboot route. I must admit to not personally seeing the massive appeal of getting the Mad/Whammer/Archer/Rifleman/PHawk back, but I know there's a large amount of fans who have serious boners for them, but as part of the franchise? I'd actually say they've done more harm than good over the years and should have simply had their factories destroyed and the rest of the universe could have moved on without all the hassle they brought with them. Still, I aknowledge that for many, that would be a mortal sin and would feel the same way about that idea as I do about people ****ting all over the timeline for the sake of getting shiny new toys.
    If we got a reboot in the current clime, we'd be more likely to get a Star Wars or Transformers than a Marvel Cinematic Universe, I fear. Mind you, I'd likely not care all that much either way, since I came in with the animated series, stayed for the cool toys (the vast majority of 95% of the 145 mechs I have were chosen because I thought they looked cool, time-period and allegiance be damned - though in fairness, it is set such that I can play Everyone In the IS Except Kurita (who my mate has mechs for)) and, honestly probably mostly because the Tech Manuals are like Spacecraft 2000-2100AD in being sci-fi Jane's guides.

    So, a relatively casual fan, at best, but even so, I still twitch every time someone says "reboot."

    Put it this way, there was a lot of stupid crap in the Marvel comics Transformers, yet none of the reboots have ever held a candle to it i my opinion, warts and all.



    Sorry,very quickly (got to go!) this stood out:

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    The best modern example I can think of is how GW handled the WHFB reboot into AoS
    "Best" as in "most pertient" or "well-executed?"

    Because he former might be true - and I sort of assume that's what you meant - but the latter... is a huge middle finger to everyone who actually liked Warhammer world (and while I long since stopped playing WHFB, Warhammer FRPG is still something I am fond of) and seemed to be basically the jihad writ larger and more-mean spirited, from what I've heard of it and summaries of it I've read...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post
    "Best" as in "most pertient" or "well-executed?"

    Because he former might be true - and I sort of assume that's what you meant - but the latter... is a huge middle finger to everyone who actually liked Warhammer world (and while I long since stopped playing WHFB, Warhammer FRPG is still something I am fond of) and seemed to be basically the jihad writ larger and more-mean spirited, from what I've heard of it and summaries of it I've read...
    It was intended as the former, though from a business point of view, I guess you could argue the later as well. AoS has generally brought in more fans than it lost, so in that sense, it was a success, though that means very little to the legion of WHFB players who got the equivalent of a swift kick in the junk to bring it about.

    The same line of thought could be applied to the jihad (or the clans or whatever else boils your coolant) - would you rather see the franchise die and be left in no-mans land because the setting refused to change and was no longer financially viable, or would you rather accept the changes and continue to have things produced for the franchise, with at least the possibility of resurrecting or revisiting the era/ruleset/setting you love at a later date? I'd rather battletech continue to be a thing, even if it requires the stupidity of the jihad, if it means I can still get stuff like this version of battletech. Doesn't mean I can't still think the jihad/dark age was/is dumb or that I can't just continue to ignore anything after the 4th Whitting conference.

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    There's a lot of stuff in B-Tech that doesn't make sense, and even the in-universe explanations fail to hold up under scrutiny. Granted, some of it was done for gameplay reasons (ballistic weapons losing effective range as they increase in caliber, for example). A reboot might let them fix a lot of things. Plus that's the only way they could remove the Unseen Mechs to avoid antagonizing the litigation-happy HG without lobotomizing the lore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mangosta71 View Post
    Granted, some of it was done for gameplay reasons (ballistic weapons losing effective range as they increase in caliber, for example).
    This, at least, is extremely easy to explain. Anything larger than an AC/2 has too long a barrel to be wieldable by a BattleMech, so they have to cut the barrel down to make it fit. This fits with reality, where several tanks had very large and powerful guns (in comparison to what a tank their size could normally fit) that were short-ranged and inaccurate because of the short barrel.


    Combine this with the official "The ranges in-game do not reflect the reality of the setting. They have been significantly reduced for gameplay purposes" stance, and that neatly explains this enigma.
    Last edited by Gnoman; Today at 12:27 PM.

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    Default Re: Battletech! (The new one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    It was intended as the former, though from a business point of view, I guess you could argue the later as well. AoS has generally brought in more fans than it lost, so in that sense, it was a success, though that means very little to the legion of WHFB players who got the equivalent of a swift kick in the junk to bring it about.

    The same line of thought could be applied to the jihad (or the clans or whatever else boils your coolant) - would you rather see the franchise die and be left in no-mans land because the setting refused to change and was no longer financially viable, or would you rather accept the changes and continue to have things produced for the franchise, with at least the possibility of resurrecting or revisiting the era/ruleset/setting you love at a later date? I'd rather battletech continue to be a thing, even if it requires the stupidity of the jihad, if it means I can still get stuff like this version of battletech. Doesn't mean I can't still think the jihad/dark age was/is dumb or that I can't just continue to ignore anything after the 4th Whitting conference.
    If in rebooting, the thing become so far removed from what it was that it holds no interest?

    Difficult question - but I suppose, the pertinent thing is at that point, if I no longer care what it's doing (and am no longer spending pennies on it or paying any attention to it), it might as well be dead as far as it pertains to me. So then it is "how much of a miserable, old, fun-ruining, off-lawn-shouting toe-rag are you?1"



    Could you do a reboot for BattleTech and make it "better?" Sure; but the problem is, I would be more inclined to believe that "better" we would get is most likely to be the GW/Disney/Hasbro "niche markets do not make All Of The Money") approach and not the "basically a revised version of the old canon that improves the old stuff with a fresh perspective and experience."



    (For the record, while I think the jihad is maybe a bit silly, I think there are FAR worse things the old Star Wars EU (anything chronologically past Zhan's last novel with Luke and Mara as far as I'm concerned), so by comparison, it's not that bad...)



    But, why don't we have a little thought experiment - what MIGHT a reboot look like?

    For me, it would probably be mosty like canon, with the possible exception of changing the range scales to be something a bit saner (I mean for tabletop, if you play on the hex-maps not on a table, it's so abstracted that whether a hex means 30m or, I dunno, 150m or whatever it's sort of nothing more than fluff anyway) and maybe cutting down on the issues that render the distant tech of the the thirty-first century maybe not quite lower than what modern armour has. And the rest of what I might do would truly be less "reboot" and more "major mechanical updates" to the rules (with attendant fluff) like making autocannons a bit more... Competative in the lower grades. (Which HB BT has already done anyway, and I have copied/modified my table-top rules in suite.)

    A little money tongue-in-cheek, maybe canonise our Clan-O-Matic and extract the Michel out often clans a bit more with canonising the likes of Clans (actual random Clans generated by Clan-O-Matic) Mortal Marsupial, Chrome Idiot, Kung Fu Budgie and Belligerant Spider2...

    Sure, the Clans have all the best toys (well, in later years, MOST of he best toys!), but by 'eck does that not excuse them from mockery...

    What about everyone else?



    1Approxmately 100%, in my case...

    2The problem with the D100 [Adjective] [Noun] randomisation is occasionally by accident, you get something vaguely not stupid, dammit.

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    What's the Jihad beef? As a mainly reader of the fiction and tech manuals, I thought the Word of Blake was nicely set up to be the villian. Like the setup for the Clans, it seemed like solid plotting.

    Clans: the SLDF is back, and they'd like a word.
    Jihad: Who's laughing now, ComStar?

    Edit: now the FedCom civil war, that just pissed me off. Talk about your reset buttons.
    Last edited by LuckGuy; Today at 01:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckGuy View Post
    What's the Jihad beef? As a mainly reader of the fiction and tech manuals, I thought the Word of Blake was nicely set up to be the villian. Like the setup for the Clans, it seemed like solid plotting.

    Clans: the SLDF is back, and they'd like a word.
    Jihad: Who's laughing now, ComStar?

    Edit: now the FedCom civil war, that just pissed me off. Talk about your reset buttons.
    I didn't really have a big problem with the Jihad, it had clearly been planned for a very long time in the universe. It was a logical extension of the Word of Blake faction of ComStar, and Waterly's laughable attempt to sieze control of the IS with Operation Scorpion. WoB failed once and they consolidated and tried again when they thought the time was right.

    The FedCom civil war actually made a lot of sense. Steiner and Davion were only actually brought together because of Melissa and Hanse. The actual people populating the territories still didn't like each other. It makes 100% logical sense that the alliance would collapse as soon as those 2 were dead.

    Now what pissed off the bulk of the fans and succeeded in completely destroying the Expanded Universe was the Dark Age bull****. THAT was just a ridiculous asspull reset button. 'Hey guys big time skip! Because we said so despite technology being much more advanced now mechs are RARER!! And by the way every main character that we built up in the previous novels died off-screen a pathetic failure and everybody is at war.'

    ALL HAIL THE GREAT RAK!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckGuy View Post
    What's the Jihad beef? As a mainly reader of the fiction and tech manuals, I thought the Word of Blake was nicely set up to be the villian. Like the setup for the Clans, it seemed like solid plotting.

    Clans: the SLDF is back, and they'd like a word.
    Jihad: Who's laughing now, ComStar?

    Edit: now the FedCom civil war, that just pissed me off. Talk about your reset buttons.
    See, fractured base.

    The FCCW was set up for almost a decade, starting with Natural Selection in '92 and has numerous events that drives the plot of about 20 or so of the novels and the Katrina Katherine vs Victor show continues to be a major plot point and driving force for the setting until it finally turns to open war in Patriots and Tyrants in '01. Her inevitable showdown with Victor was on the cards for years and the positioning was vaugely sound - build popular support with the side of the realm that was already not a huge fan of their current ruler, pin the murder of said realms beloved leader on prime suspect, flex your power when the opposition has removed themselves from the picture, undermine your rivals and put them in no-win situations, play to the media and build your image etc. The maneuvering of #NotMyArchon Katherine was long term and if you were keeping up to date with the books, you knew it was coming for a long time.

    The Jihad was only barely hinted at through hindsight when Waterly threw a tanty and decided to try and be a saturday morning cartoon villian. Then the wobblies go unmentioned for over a decade (since we're concentrating on the aftermath of the clans, a bunch of world/universe building stories and the set-up of the FC Civil War). Then, suddenly and without preamble nor foreshadowing, the "Word of Blake" that has been brought up exactly once before captures Terra out from under the nose of ComStar, who have been painted as the boogeyman with regards to their intel gathering and their now not-so-secret military might. Would have been fine if it had been set up, but it literally comes out of nowhere and despite being a huge event, for some reason, there's no book about it where the readers can get invested in the idea, it's just something that happens offscreen in a passing mention and then disappears again.

    So, after said major plot event is basically brushed under the carpet for the next ~5 years (because we've been busy with the conclusion of the FCCW), we eventually see the WoB turning up once at the 3rd Whitting conference as a casual mention, then forgotten about until they turn up again at the 4th Whitting conference where they get introduced into the new star league and then instantly don't matter 'cause in a setting where might-makes-right has ruled for the last 300 years, democracy is shown to be nice in theory but lousy in practice. The wobblies then somehow IMMEDIATELY jump warships into the capital worlds of both the Lyran Commonwealth and The Federated Suns to demand they stop throwing their toys out of the pram and ruining everything. Given that the Wobblies are based in FWL space, how did they manage to get exceedingly rare and powerful warships to the opposite ends of the IS a) without being noticed and b ) despite not having the slightest idea that the Star League was about to collapse again? They then proceed to take on basically every power in the Inner Sphere and almost win, out of absolutely nowhere. To defeat them, we also get the introduction of Devlin Stone, effectively a character handwaved into existance because ... I guess we can't have Victor do everything and everyone else is busy? Except we then immediately get VSD and the rest of his scooby gang involved anyway, so what was the point of Devlin Stone other than trying to placate the VSD is a Mary Sue people?

    The Jihad might have been better accepted if they had done more groundwork. There's quite a few stories that would have made for pretty great novels - the assault on Terrra, their takeover of the chaos march, their feud with and the formation of the allied merc command, their covert ops war with the other half of ComStar, their relationship with Thomas Marik and how the real/fake Thomas thing was eventually resolved, their integration with the FWL, their rise to power and expansion in the trinity accords. So much that could have laid the groundwork that was just jammed into TRO's and flashpoint books that briefly skim over incredibly important events in a setting that has, until this point, taken extreme pains to set up the background of the major goings on.

    The Dork Dark Age was meant to be a setting reboot with the timeskip, but the return to 3025 ideals without the limitations on 3025 tech and no established characters just doesn't work, doubly so when a large part of the premise is a HPG blackout when both the Lyrans and the Davions (at a minimum, I have to imagine that the other 3 major houses would have stolen the black box schematics by that stage) have very clearly established means of circumventing the lack of HPG network plot twist. Much as we saw with the demise of WHFB to usher in the AoS, the audience generally doesn't like it when the previous 30 years of worldbuilding get swept away, even if the new setting is largely the same - you're still asking them to invest from scratch and need to go through the entire world building excersize again because you just trashed all the familiarity your readers had with the setting.

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    Consider this a reminder that not everyone is done with the campaign yet, please put plot points in spoilers please.

    I just had to furiously scoll to the bottom of the thread to dodge what looks to be some late game content.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    See, fractured base.

    The FCCW was set up for almost a decade, starting with Natural Selection in '92 and has numerous events that drives the plot of about 20 or so of the novels and the Katrina Katherine vs Victor show continues to be a major plot point and driving force for the setting until it finally turns to open war in Patriots and Tyrants in '01. Her inevitable showdown with Victor was on the cards for years and the positioning was vaugely sound - build popular support with the side of the realm that was already not a huge fan of their current ruler, pin the murder of said realms beloved leader on prime suspect, flex your power when the opposition has removed themselves from the picture, undermine your rivals and put them in no-win situations, play to the media and build your image etc. The maneuvering of #NotMyArchon Katherine was long term and if you were keeping up to date with the books, you knew it was coming for a long time.
    They also managed to successfully link the FCCW with the games. The plotlines of both MechWarrior 4 (2000) and MechCommander 2 (2001) directly incorporated the events of that conflict - MechCommander 2 even had an actress portray Katrina Steiner in FMV sequences. So it was a surprisingly well integrated cross-media event for a property.

    The Dork Dark Age was meant to be a setting reboot with the timeskip, but the return to 3025 ideals without the limitations on 3025 tech and no established characters just doesn't work, doubly so when a large part of the premise is a HPG blackout when both the Lyrans and the Davions (at a minimum, I have to imagine that the other 3 major houses would have stolen the black box schematics by that stage) have very clearly established means of circumventing the lack of HPG network plot twist. Much as we saw with the demise of WHFB to usher in the AoS, the audience generally doesn't like it when the previous 30 years of worldbuilding get swept away, even if the new setting is largely the same - you're still asking them to invest from scratch and need to go through the entire world building excersize again because you just trashed all the familiarity your readers had with the setting.
    Dark Age got hit by the catch-22 that affects massive universes - you need change, but any change you make will be protested. The extant plotline had gotten massively bloated by 2002 to the point where it was difficult to penetrate. MechWarrior 4 and MechCommander 2 wisely focused on micro-conflicts and simply referenced the larger issues at hand, but I imagine some of that - such as the Liao part in MechCommander 2 - would have made little sense to someone without awareness of the universe. Additionally all of the major characters were far too important by that point to actually stuff in the cockpit of a Mech - which is where the action has always been. So they really did need some level of reboot. The problem is they went way too far with it. A single generation, maybe two, would probably have been enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    See, fractured base.
    This is fascinating, we do seem to inhabit different Inner Sphere's based on which books we have read! I have Ideal War on my bookshelf and I've read it more than any other Battletech book, so the WoBlies being both nuke happy and up to no good is just known in my brain. Whereas the FedCom Civil War just seemed an artificial way to break up the Steiner-Davion realm which otherwise would eventually dominate. As was widely noted at the time, out of all the Successor States, the Suns and Lyrans had the least reason to hate each other.

    I thought the "Hidden 5" and the fact that ComStar kept all the records of which system was really un-inhabited and also made the maps meant that it wasn't a stretch at all that they could have fleets and armies hidden everywhere. No one is going to jump into an "empty" system anywhere other than a zenith or nadir point, so certain stars you just don't come back from. Then, personally, I thought their psychotic break at seeing another Star League crack up (equivalent to watching an angel choose to fall like a second Lucifer) made a lot of sense given their religion. It also is really tied together well with the story in the Second Succession War sourcebook.

    We can be united in the fact that Dark Age sucked and is terrible in all ways. It is the Highlander 2 of Battletech Eras.
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    How does this loadout for an Atlas (not the special one) sound:

    2x AC/10's, 2x SRM/6's, 1x PPC

    Yes, you're giving up the AC/20 can opener, but twin AC/10's is pretty darn good, especially if you are getting called hits. The twin SRM/6's give you some stability and crit fishing and pretty significant overall damage up close, and the PPC gives you some staying power if you run out of ammo for some reason. Plus another solid punch. Basically has a better ranged punch than an Awesome, for less heat, and has the twin SRM/6's to back them up for closer ranged combat. It won't have the extreme range punch of the LRM/20, but it has 2x AC/10's and a PPC, which I find a worthwhile trade for a mech which is supposed to be a brawler anyway. Maybe manage to figure out how to put an LRM/5 on it for knocking down mechs already hammered by a missile boat into max unsteadiness as part of a multi-target salvo?
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuckGuy View Post
    This is fascinating, we do seem to inhabit different Inner Sphere's based on which books we have read! I have Ideal War on my bookshelf and I've read it more than any other Battletech book, so the WoBlies being both nuke happy and up to no good is just known in my brain. Whereas the FedCom Civil War just seemed an artificial way to break up the Steiner-Davion realm which otherwise would eventually dominate. As was widely noted at the time, out of all the Successor States, the Suns and Lyrans had the least reason to hate each other.

    I thought the "Hidden 5" and the fact that ComStar kept all the records of which system was really un-inhabited and also made the maps meant that it wasn't a stretch at all that they could have fleets and armies hidden everywhere. No one is going to jump into an "empty" system anywhere other than a zenith or nadir point, so certain stars you just don't come back from. Then, personally, I thought their psychotic break at seeing another Star League crack up (equivalent to watching an angel choose to fall like a second Lucifer) made a lot of sense given their religion. It also is really tied together well with the story in the Second Succession War sourcebook.

    We can be united in the fact that Dark Age sucked and is terrible in all ways. It is the Highlander 2 of Battletech Eras.
    Same as anything else, the information that you have colours your opinion.

    I finally finished getting every novel a few years back, ironically, the last one I needed was "I am Jade Falcon" which heavily dealt with the Falcons side of the refusal war and the MW2 setting responsible for getting me into this whole thing was basically Refusal War: The game.

    I must say that despite having read it at least twice, I didn't think much of Ideal War and can barely remember any of it, so, aain, I guess it's not just what we've read, but what we remember too.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    How does this loadout for an Atlas (not the special one) sound:

    2x AC/10's, 2x SRM/6's, 1x PPC

    Yes, you're giving up the AC/20 can opener, but twin AC/10's is pretty darn good, especially if you are getting called hits. The twin SRM/6's give you some stability and crit fishing and pretty significant overall damage up close, and the PPC gives you some staying power if you run out of ammo for some reason. Plus another solid punch. Basically has a better ranged punch than an Awesome, for less heat, and has the twin SRM/6's to back them up for closer ranged combat. It won't have the extreme range punch of the LRM/20, but it has 2x AC/10's and a PPC, which I find a worthwhile trade for a mech which is supposed to be a brawler anyway. Maybe manage to figure out how to put an LRM/5 on it for knocking down mechs already hammered by a missile boat into max unsteadiness as part of a multi-target salvo?
    It's ... OK?

    You're highly over-valuing the ammo independance of the PPC. Running out of ammo should be almost imposible barring poor 'mech design or a very small handful of stock 'mechs. Being better than an Awesome isn't exactly a high bar to set when PPC's are so much hotter than the Awesome (or anything else) is equipped for.

    The AC/10's are ... passable, but unless you're packing the Kali Yama +/++ versions so you can headcap, they're not spectacular (and even then, headcaps on single shot weapons are still pretty rare without called shots and high tactics). 2 AC/10's is 120 damge split over 2 locations for 24 tons (+ ammo) and 30 heat. A single AC/20 is 100 damage to 1 location for 14 tons (+ ammo) and 25 heat. Is the extra range really worth 10 tons and 5 heat? Sometimes it will be, most times it won't. Can you put those other 10 tones to good use?

    Are you packing breaching shot? If so, it might be worth it to be able to breach 3 seperate targets, but then, you'll also get a lot of value out of breaching shot with a single AC/20 too.

    Everthing you've got does stability, so the LRM 5 would be pretty useless. Just split fire an SRM rack at them, or the PPC if they're too far away.

    If you're making use of called shot, there are much better ways to get damage than a pair of AC/10's.

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