Battletech! (The new one)

[Kaptin Keen]

Have you played it? Is it good?

I really like Hare Brained's take on Shadowrun - even if it was remarkably unlike the rule set of the books, it was very much like the world/setting, and they were some really good games. So I have high hopes for this one.

The Mod Wonder: Since it seems relevant, a list of mech chasises and their hardpoints.

[Hunter Noventa]

I've played around with it a little bit and it's pretty fun. the story mode seems interesting, even if I only really got through the first mission. Skirmish mode is exactly what you'd expect.

I think the most lacking feature is mech customization. You're very limited in terms of what kind of weaponry you can mount to a mech, so you can't so silly things like use every point of tonnage on heat sinks and small lasers. Each mech only has a few preset hardpoints for each kind of weapon (aCs, Missiles, Beams, and Support) and while you can mess around with changing those around, you can't do much besides that.

I know it's partially an engine limitation, they made each mech model have visible locations for weapon effects to emit from, and they did at least give you a few variants of most of the mechs with different hardpoint loadouts, but it's still a little disappointing.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Not sure what Shadowrun has to do with Battletech 3025, but yea... this game rocks.

Many of the changes were necessary. For example, in classic Battletech 3025, AC/2's and to a lesser extend AC/5's were completely useless because they weighed so much and took up so many crit slots for so little damage. AC/10's were more relevant, but were even heavier. But hey, they did more than the 9 damage needed to headcap, so that made them relevant. Obviously, AC/20's were nice on heavy/assault mechs (or the Hunchback). But really, you didn't want to mount any kind of AC system on a Light or Medium mech, because they were just too damn bulky. Especially when you compare them to something like a PPC, which CAN be (barely) fit into a light mech (such as the infamous Panther, a.k.a. the alleycat).

The stability system basically replaced piloting checks, and I'm just as good with that. They brought SRM's from 'solid' to 'ZOMGWTFBBQ' and LRM's to 'you need at least one missile support mech in your lance once you get a Trebuchet chassis up and running, then upgrade to Catapult as soon as you can'.

The heat system was overhauled a little, instead of heat now having a chance of causing your mech to cook off its ammo (with predictably fatal consequences), it would just do structural damage all over, which costs time and money to repair back at base, so you can't just load out like 4 PPC's onto a mech and figure you overheat every other round and be good with it.

The targeting system is pretty amazing as well, and I see the roots of the tabletop game's system all over the place, as well as some subtle improvements. For example, called shots on shut down or knocked down mechs is pretty nice. And they seem to have done away with punch/hit location table all together, so you can't just have a one in six chance of blowing someone's head off with a melee attack. Which I consider an improvement.

Overall, this is the game Battletech has been needing for twenty plus years now. It is a must-have for any TBS or Grand Strategy fan, as well as anyone who remembers playing the old tabletop set in the 3025 era before cheater Clan tech and their insane double heat sinks blew the whole concept of balance out of the water.

I've played around with it a little bit and it's pretty fun. the story mode seems interesting, even if I only really got through the first mission. Skirmish mode is exactly what you'd expect.

I think the most lacking feature is mech customization. You're very limited in terms of what kind of weaponry you can mount to a mech, so you can't so silly things like use every point of tonnage on heat sinks and small lasers. Each mech only has a few preset hardpoints for each kind of weapon (aCs, Missiles, Beams, and Support) and while you can mess around with changing those around, you can't do much besides that.

I know it's partially an engine limitation, they made each mech model have visible locations for weapon effects to emit from, and they did at least give you a few variants of most of the mechs with different hardpoint loadouts, but it's still a little disappointing.

That's not an engine limitation, that's done on purpose. However, you CAN add and remove hard points to a chassis, it just costs you time and money to do so in the mech shop. The purpose of the hardpoints is a) to help the mechs keep the same feel as the iconic units, b) to prevent cheese like you described, and c) because it adds another layer of complexity and makes (for example) a Shadowhawk chassis and a Hunchback chassis mechanically different, despite both being 55 ton mechs.

[Hunter Noventa]

Not sure what Shadowrun has to do with Battletech 3025, but yea... this game rocks.

{snip}

That's not an engine limitation, that's done on purpose. However, you CAN add and remove hard points to a chassis, it just costs you time and money to do so in the mech shop. The purpose of the hardpoints is a) to help the mechs keep the same feel as the iconic units, b) to prevent cheese like you described, and c) because it adds another layer of complexity and makes (for example) a Shadowhawk chassis and a Hunchback chassis mechanically different, despite both being 55 ton mechs.

The new Shadowrun game was made by the same developer, and a potential indicator of quality. And actually, both Shadowrun and Battletech were created by the same company originally, FASA.

And I see, I was mainly messing around with that in the skirmish mode mechbay and didn't see a way to shift things around.

[Drasius]

Disclaimer: I am a pretty serious B-Tech fanboy, have all >100 novels, used to play the TT, I backed the Kickstarter 2.5 years ago and played the beta fairly extensively.

I have 30 hours on it already according to steam and have found it to be quite engaging though there are minor niggles here and there. Some people report crashing on start-up and very high GPU usage, though I have only had 1 crash so far (and that was to do with Paradox's server being overwhelmed by the surge of nerds on release) and my GPU is 20C cooler than it was when it was running the beta.

The mechs are basically ports from Mechwarrior:Online from an agreement with PGI, but everything else has been done by the guys who made B-Tech 30'ish years ago, so while there are a few tweaks to make if fit (and some long overdue adjustment to AC/2's and /5's), it's pleasantly close to Tabletop rules and the setting and lore are ignorable if you don't care but very true to the source material if you're at all familiar with it. Graphics-wise, the mechs themselves are a bit blocky due to their original design and, to be honest, don't make such a good translation at extreme levels of zoom, but the environments, effects and weapons are all top notch.

If you've played any sort of Turn Based Strategy before, you should find the first dozen or so missions pretty easy, but rest assured, the training wheels definately come off later. The tutorial is a bit sparse, but there's nothing you can't figure out yourself if you've even vaugely familiar with either TBS or B-Tech or with one of the many guides, tips and tricks found on the net if you're struggling.

The story is pretty standard space opera stuff, very BattleTech in feel, though I would have liked a little more ... I dunno, something to make the periphery actually feel like the periphery, but again, unless you're heavily into the lore, you won't notice anything amiss (or even if you are, it's a pretty minor quibble on my part).

The actual game though? It's pretty great. The only complaint I'd say is worth mentioning is that it can have a couple of second pause between units finishing their turn and while it's not really that noticable in smaller battles, once you're at anything above ~4 vs 8 (not terribly common), especially if your turns are in a big lump and the enemy turns are all in a big lump, it can get a bit annoying. If you liked X-com but wished your guys were not quite so squishy and could shoot missiles, lasers and autocannons, then you'll be fairly at home here.

Beyond that, PPC's sizzle bolts of man-made lightning across varied landscapes while Long Range Missiles arc contrails through alien skies and machines the size of houses viciously punch each other in desperate melee combat. There's a decent amount of 'mechs to try out, a 'mech lab to let you tinker with said 'mechs, a variety of landscapes, each with their own effect on heat dissipation and cover to fight in and on, destructible buildings, plenty of vehicles to fight too, ranging from light wheeled scouts to heavy and assault class battletanks.

You have your own mercenary company to manage, from the 'mechs to the warriors, to the contracts you sign, the missions you fight and the places and people you deal with. The story structure feels a bit like it was lifted out of an early bioware effort in that there's a bunch of different dialouge options, but you're still basically railroaded into doing the thing they want you to. You create a character and the background you select both gives you benefits to your skills but also lets you interject stuff into conversations and very occassionally helps you with the minor issues that crop up as you're travelling around with your band of murder-hobos. There's also a bit of a base-building upgrade-y sort of thing (that, again, is kinda like the X-Com anthill or the base from a Bioware title, but not quite).

The main characters in the story run the gamut from memorable and engaging to forgetable and bland and while there's plenty of Pilots, they're closer to X-com grunts than they are to true party members, though some will click sufficiently that you'll remember them.

As a huge BattleTech fan, I'd give it a 9.5/10, if you like X-Com or similar, then I'd suggest it'll be roughly in the 8-9/10 range, if you like turn based strats, then it's pretty likely that you'll find more than enough to keep you entertained, but if you're more into twitch shooters or expecting something more along ye olde Mechwarrior lines, I'd probably watch a stream or other gameplay before you dive in. It's quite complex, but it shouldn't be too hard to master if you make the effort, though it's still very possible to fail as the hand-holding stops fairly early.

[Lost Demiurge]

I'm liking it. Story's good so far, the combat's nifty, and messing around with mech loadouts makes me a happy man. Serious nostalgia rush, there.

I like the fact that actions have consequences, but you can recover from most of the consequences. I don't feel like I have to save-scum my way through it if a pilot dies. Sucks, but there's more where they came from.

All this on top of running a merc company, which is awesome fun inside of itself. This is the sort of thing I wanted to do with a tabletop gaming group, but never had the system or the time or the people...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The new Shadowrun game was made by the same developer, and a potential indicator of quality. And actually, both Shadowrun and Battletech were created by the same company originally, FASA.

And I see, I was mainly messing around with that in the skirmish mode mechbay and didn't see a way to shift things around.

Shadowrun was made by FASA? Huh, never knew that. That was, perhaps, the one game system I managed to never get into during the 80's and 90's. GURPS, D&D, RIFTS/Palladium, OWoD... sure. But never did get into Shadowrun.

And yea, they don't want you hot-swapping the hard points in Skirmish mode because they're trying to limit cheese. You see a Hunchback, you know that you don't want to get too close to it, because it is going to *hurt* if that AC/20 hits.

Also, play the campaign. It is one of the best I've ever seen. You start off as a small merc company fielding mostly light mechs with maybe a couple of mediums. You go from there to change the fate of worlds. In the most epic way possible. You can find + and ++ gear, which are strict upgrades. For example, you can find an SRM6++ with 50% crit bonus. Not cheap, but holy crap that thing is awesome. Or an LRM++ that deals an extra point of damage *per missile*. I... don't really think I need to say anything more. Or an SRM/LRM system with bonus stability damage. You can also, rarely, find other pieces of gear, upgraded cockpits to give more hit points to your pilot and such. At the end of the campaign, you are fielding far more dangerous mechs than you could ever hope to get from Skirmish mode.

That's not trying to bash Skirmish mode. It's fun, it's fast setup, and it gets you into the lance-on-lance action. It uses iconic mechs from the era, because that's mostly what exists at that time, and if you had access to all the customization options you do in the Campaign mode... well, that would break all semblance of balance in a multiplayer function.

Still... do yourself a favor. Play the campaign. I assure you... you won't regret it.

[GungHo]

Shadowrun was made by FASA? Huh, never knew that. That was, perhaps, the one game system I managed to never get into during the 80's and 90's. GURPS, D&D, RIFTS/Palladium, OWoD... sure. But never did get into Shadowrun.

Shadowrun was also FASA, but what he's saying is that Harebrained, the developer for this particular Battletech game, released a Shadowrun computer game a couple of years ago.

The first version of was pretty rough, but they refined it quite a bit by the time they got to their third campaign.



I think part of the problem with the reception of this game (that it's slow and ponderous) is that not a lot of folks who have been playing big shooty robots recently are used to turn based actions. The last few Battletech (and other shooty robot) games have been real time, and even the last 3rd person squad-oriented Mech Commander was more of an RTS than anything. Additionally, XCOM also had a number of mods to address a lot of the weird pausing, so the people that were playing that as a shooty soldier game who are also interested in big shooty robots may not have gotten the "full ponder" recently.

[Zombimode]

The new Shadowrun game was made by the same developer, and a potential indicator of quality. And actually, both Shadowrun and Battletech were created by the same company originally, FASA.

Jordan Weisman, the lead developer of the Shadowrun Returns games and the new Battletech game is the creator of both Shadowrun and Battletech.

[Drasius]

The new Shadowrun game was made by the same developer, and a potential indicator of quality. And actually, both Shadowrun and Battletech were created by the same company originally, FASA.

Shadowrun was made by FASA? Huh, never knew that. That was, perhaps, the one game system I managed to never get into during the 80's and 90's. GURPS, D&D, RIFTS/Palladium, OWoD... sure. But never did get into Shadowrun.

Shadowrun was also FASA, but what he's saying is that Harebrained, the developer for this particular Battletech game, released a Shadowrun computer game a couple of years ago.

Not only is by the same group who made Shadowrun, but one of the head guys at Harebrained created both Shadowrun and Battletech (though both were joint efforts, Jordan Weisman has been involved with both from start [in the early 80's for B-Tech] to the present day and has even written novels for said series along with roughly a billion other things).

Edit: Damn Street Ninja's!

[Hunter Noventa]

That's not trying to bash Skirmish mode. It's fun, it's fast setup, and it gets you into the lance-on-lance action. It uses iconic mechs from the era, because that's mostly what exists at that time, and if you had access to all the customization options you do in the Campaign mode... well, that would break all semblance of balance in a multiplayer function.

Still... do yourself a favor. Play the campaign. I assure you... you won't regret it.

Good points all around, especially in terms of balance. I was planning to play the campaign of course, it's just a matter of how much time I have to invest at once.

I was able to make a quite murderous Jaegermech variant among others, I just need to figure out what to do for the light mech in my custom lance before I do some multiplayer with friends.

[Kaptin Keen]

Thank you all for the feedback. Back in the day, when the reigning title was Battlemech 3 Mercenaries, I loved it to bits - it's one of the very, very few titles I even played in pvp, and did well with. I guess I was just fairly good at aiming for legs. Later, when Mech Commander launched, I played that vigorously too.

So, since the concensus seems to be that this is good, I shall go forth, posthaste, and get stuck in.

[Jama7301]

I've never played anything Battletech related before, and I'm on the fence about this one, but leaning towards getting it. I'm both intimidated by the potential amount of options and subsystems in the campaign, but also interested in commanding a squad of stompy mechs.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Good points all around, especially in terms of balance. I was planning to play the campaign of course, it's just a matter of how much time I have to invest at once.

I was able to make a quite murderous Jaegermech variant among others, I just need to figure out what to do for the light mech in my custom lance before I do some multiplayer with friends.

Depends on what you want the light mech to do. If you're wanting a spotter, with some punch, it's hard to go wrong with a Panther. 35 ton mech with jump jets and a PPC. Known as the 'alleycat' for its propinsity for urban combat and getting alley shots from half way across the board.

The Jenner is a pretty solid light mech. Personally, I'd dump a Medium Laser in favor of upgrading the SRM/4 to an SRM/6 and a half ton of armor, but I tend to be picky about my SRM loadouts (go 6 or go home). SRM's are great for 'crit fishing' because each individual missile has a chance of critting if it hits an unarmored location.

The Spider is another classic extremely mobile scouting mech. Although only armed with a pair of Medium Lasers, this is quite possibly the most mobile mech available in Skirmish Mode. It is absolutely amazing at jumping around, providing firing solutions, and using Sensor Lock for his heavier friends to reach out and frag someone.

The Javelin is another solid classic, a 30 ton mech with twin SRM/6's and good mobility with jump jets. They are amazing for jumping in, getting crits, then jumping back out before people can respond. The key here is to Reserve until after the target mech has moved, then pound it until it has one or more vulnerable armor slots, then use the Javelin to close, crit-fish, then next turn he acts on the light mech phase before his target can respond and moves back away into cover, possibly sensor locking something else.

[Triaxx]

Don't forget, we're playing with IS Mechs, not Clan Omni Mechs. So the Hardpoints make perfect sense.

[LibraryOgre]

I wish my computer could run it.

[Kaptin Keen]

I wish my computer could run it.

I just arrived at the same conclusion. After buying it, obviously. Well, I've needed to replace it for a long time. Guess the time is now.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Don't forget, we're playing with IS Mechs, not Clan Omni Mechs. So the Hardpoints make perfect sense.

Actually, hardpoints make even *more* sense with Omni mechs, it's just that the hardpoint generally has more than one weapon system, and Omnimechs can swap stuff out mostly on the fly.

For example, an Omnimech with an arm that could be an AC/20, a Gauss Rifle, or a RAC/5, with ammo making up the difference in weight. The whole arm is basically a hardpoint, and you swap out which arm you want for which scenario.

[Drasius]

Actually, hardpoints make even *more* sense with Omni mechs, it's just that the hardpoint generally has more than one weapon system, and Omnimechs can swap stuff out mostly on the fly.

For example, an Omnimech with an arm that could be an AC/20, a Gauss Rifle, or a RAC/5, with ammo making up the difference in weight. The whole arm is basically a hardpoint, and you swap out which arm you want for which scenario.

Yes and no. For an omni, there's no reason why you couldn't throw a pair of ER LL's in where an Ultra /10 used to be, but for spheroid stuff, you're limited to replacing like with like (ie ballistic with ballistic) since they're limited in how much of the mech the techs can pull apart and rebuild. The system we have now doesn't cover the full extent of the jury-rigging system TT campaigns have, but it's close enough and it means the variants actually mean something now, as you can't turn a swayback into a regular -4G or visa versa.

To be honest, a lot of what we have stretches disbelief a bit (and I'll be even more cynical once I open the Star League Castle Brian), but hey, 'tis a game, it needs to be fun while staying as true to the source material as possible, so a few compromises can be made to have sufficient free-reign to tell a story, and the periphery is the perfect place to do so given the insanely documented and detailed nature of the inner sphere from 3025 onwards.

I must admit, there's quite a few little references and easter eggs to older titles in there too. Mention of "Pirate's Moon" being washed out and desolate, I've got a sneaking suspicion they might have hired Epona to voice some of the dialouge and the lasers are back to the red/green/blue vets know and love from MW2/GBL/Mercs rather than the later installments. I'm sure there'll be plenty more as the campaign goes on.

[The Glyphstone]

Does anyone threaten to turn that beer can you call a mech into scrap?

[Drasius]

Does anyone threaten to turn that beer can you call a mech into scrap?

Not yet, but there's a quote from "Deadeye" Unther: "In real combat, speed is life. You go slow, you die."

There are suspicions from some that the VO for the intro mentor is the same guy, however internet sleuthery hasn't turned up anything concrete.

[Olinser]

I'm enjoying it pretty thoroughly although as a couple have pointed out there are DEFINITE gaps in weapon balance. Certain weapons simply do SIGNIFICANTLY more damage with the same tonnage, and some weapons are just totally useless.

Campaign is solid but nothing special - but its a great base for future upgrades and story packs.

From a previous BattleTech games it doesn't really compare to the MechWarrior franchise as those are effectively FPS games.

But it is superior in basically every possible way to the rather mediocre MechCommander games previously released about 15 years ago.

I'm REALLY hoping they keep the game going and we get a Clan Invasion expansion pack. Since it is run by Paradox I have high hopes we will get future updates.

[factotum]

I wish my computer could run it.

Wow, *recommended* 16Gb of RAM? Even Far Cry 5 only recommends 8!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm enjoying it pretty thoroughly although as a couple have pointed out there are DEFINITE gaps in weapon balance. Certain weapons simply do SIGNIFICANTLY more damage with the same tonnage, and some weapons are just totally useless.

Actually, they've gone a VERY long way to making balance MUCH better than the original table top, however since you mention tonnage instead of heat, I suspect you're falling into the same pitfall that virtually all neophyte Battletech players fall into: heat is just as important as tonnage. At least in 3025 before Clan tech and double heat sinks show up to ruin the balance forever.

For example, an AC/2 (such as starts off on your Blackjack you get at the beginning of the game) used to be useless in the tabletop game, it did a whole 2 points, the same as a single SRM missile. It just sucked. However, in this version, the AC/2 does the same damage as the Medium Laser, for less heat, and at far greater range. This makes it an actually viable sniping tool. Plus you're almost never going to run out of ammo, even on a single ton of ammo feeding two weapons.

For comparison between AC/10 and PPC, however, the tradeoff is strictly tonnage for heat generation. PPC's generates a HUGE amount of heat. Almost any mech is going to heat up firing just one of these babies by itself, which is going to be REALLY problematic if you are on a desert or moon world where heat dissipation is reduced. The AC/10, however, deals a serious punch for virtually no heat cost. Granted, you're probably going to want a second ton of ammo, but you should be able to take any reasonable shot you want without appreciably heating up your mech. Furthermore, that means you could, say, pair an AC/10 with a PPC to get twice the power for little more than the heat of a single PPC, because two would shut down most mechs in a couple of turns if they went all out (and a common pitfall of most new Marauder pilots).

I would even go so far as to say that there are no useless weapons in this game anymore. Even the Machine Gun has a viable purpose, even the Flamer has a purpose.

I'm REALLY hoping they keep the game going and we get a Clan Invasion expansion pack. Since it is run by Paradox I have high hopes we will get future updates.

Honestly? I'm really not. Here's the thing, clan tech destroyed the game balance when it was first released, forcing WizKids to invent the BP system we all know and loathe today. But the single biggest imbalancing factor were not the crazy Clan ER PPC's or the Medium Pulse Lasers... it was the Double Heat Sinks. 20 heat on most mechs meant it was ice cold. You literally could not overheat a light mech anymore, and you had to have specific loadouts heavy on IS energy weaponry to overheat a medium mech. Which caused the mindset you referenced earlier about 'why use this Autocanon when for the same weight I could mount two or three PPC's', since heat was almost completely removed from the equation. It took a MAJOR balance factor... and chucked it right out the airlock.

XL Engines, at least the Clan version, to a lesser degree, were also bad for balance, but at least they had a penalty because if someone took out a side torso your mech pretty much up and died.

I have no idea how they would balance things in a post-Clan Invasion setting. Personally, if I were doing it, I'd just flat prohibit player-used Clan mechs, and have the Clan be exclusively computer controlled. This would make an interesting expansion, I feel. You end your campaign successfully, you've got assault lances available for drop, you think you are king of the mountain. Then the Clan invade. Now you have to defend against Clan tech with the tech you have available, and try to reverse engineer and imperfectly reproduce their tech. While fighting Clan tech with 3025 tech. THAT would be fun. It lets the computer throw extremely challenging fights rigged against you without needing to swarm you.

Of course, then the internet would be full of Madcat fanboys wanking about how they couldn't pilot one.

[Triaxx]

Much as I love the Timberwolf, I'd definitely prefer a Rifleman or a Nova.

As for Heat, multiple PPC's has always been to me an 'All or Nothing' attack option. I show up with two of them mounted on whatever I'm piloting, but at most I use a single shot now and again, but if I'm in position say behind a target to punch through rear armor, I've got to estimate if it's worth a potential critical overheat, to potentially kill the target.

[Drasius]

I'm enjoying it pretty thoroughly although as a couple have pointed out there are DEFINITE gaps in weapon balance. Certain weapons simply do SIGNIFICANTLY more damage with the same tonnage, and some weapons are just totally useless.

Campaign is solid but nothing special - but its a great base for future upgrades and story packs.

From a previous BattleTech games it doesn't really compare to the MechWarrior franchise as those are effectively FPS games.

But it is superior in basically every possible way to the rather mediocre MechCommander games previously released about 15 years ago.

I'm REALLY hoping they keep the game going and we get a Clan Invasion expansion pack. Since it is run by Paradox I have high hopes we will get future updates.

What weapons are you finding useless? Traditionally the only crap weapons were the AC/2 and /5 (as Shneeky pointed out) and they've been overtuned adjusted nicely. The only other offender that springs to mind is the LRM 10 vs the 5, but then, breaching shot and hardpoint restrictions are things, so while heavily overshadowed, it's not totally useless. Everything else that I can think of is usable, though I'm still not sold on the LL being very good.

Re: MechCommander being bad? You can shut your whore mouth my good Sir.

IF (big if) they do a clan X-pac instead of the 4th succession war, the war of 3039, CapCon/FWL invasion of the FedRats, Chaos March or FedCom Civil War, I hope it's a clan vs clan thing (ie war of refusal) rather than yet another IS vs Clan thing (3050, Falcon invasion, Operation Bulldog), though setting it up so that you're fighting as the clanners in the 3050 invasion would be a possible route since it's easy to excuse away why you're only bringing a single star or less of 'mechs vs a company or more of enemies. IS vs clan poses problems not only in balance, but also of lore - not only were the number of merc units that didn't get their poo very thoroughly pushed in able to be counted on 1 hand that had had a nasty bandsaw related incident, you could and would retire the instant you salvaged a clan mech due to the IS houses either buying you out or killing you for it. On top of that, B-Tech has a rather fractured base in that many people see the clans as a jumping the shark moment and would avoid it because of that (same thing for the WoB jihad era).

[Triaxx]

Anyone who thinks they're going to make everyone happy is very new to the internet.

[Olinser]

Actually, they've gone a VERY long way to making balance MUCH better than the original table top, however since you mention tonnage instead of heat, I suspect you're falling into the same pitfall that virtually all neophyte Battletech players fall into: heat is just as important as tonnage. At least in 3025 before Clan tech and double heat sinks show up to ruin the balance forever.

For example, an AC/2 (such as starts off on your Blackjack you get at the beginning of the game) used to be useless in the tabletop game, it did a whole 2 points, the same as a single SRM missile. It just sucked. However, in this version, the AC/2 does the same damage as the Medium Laser, for less heat, and at far greater range. This makes it an actually viable sniping tool. Plus you're almost never going to run out of ammo, even on a single ton of ammo feeding two weapons.

For comparison between AC/10 and PPC, however, the tradeoff is strictly tonnage for heat generation. PPC's generates a HUGE amount of heat. Almost any mech is going to heat up firing just one of these babies by itself, which is going to be REALLY problematic if you are on a desert or moon world where heat dissipation is reduced. The AC/10, however, deals a serious punch for virtually no heat cost. Granted, you're probably going to want a second ton of ammo, but you should be able to take any reasonable shot you want without appreciably heating up your mech. Furthermore, that means you could, say, pair an AC/10 with a PPC to get twice the power for little more than the heat of a single PPC, because two would shut down most mechs in a couple of turns if they went all out (and a common pitfall of most new Marauder pilots).

I would even go so far as to say that there are no useless weapons in this game anymore. Even the Machine Gun has a viable purpose, even the Flamer has a purpose.


Honestly? I'm really not. Here's the thing, clan tech destroyed the game balance when it was first released, forcing WizKids to invent the BP system we all know and loathe today. But the single biggest imbalancing factor were not the crazy Clan ER PPC's or the Medium Pulse Lasers... it was the Double Heat Sinks. 20 heat on most mechs meant it was ice cold. You literally could not overheat a light mech anymore, and you had to have specific loadouts heavy on IS energy weaponry to overheat a medium mech. Which caused the mindset you referenced earlier about 'why use this Autocanon when for the same weight I could mount two or three PPC's', since heat was almost completely removed from the equation. It took a MAJOR balance factor... and chucked it right out the airlock.

XL Engines, at least the Clan version, to a lesser degree, were also bad for balance, but at least they had a penalty because if someone took out a side torso your mech pretty much up and died.

I have no idea how they would balance things in a post-Clan Invasion setting. Personally, if I were doing it, I'd just flat prohibit player-used Clan mechs, and have the Clan be exclusively computer controlled. This would make an interesting expansion, I feel. You end your campaign successfully, you've got assault lances available for drop, you think you are king of the mountain. Then the Clan invade. Now you have to defend against Clan tech with the tech you have available, and try to reverse engineer and imperfectly reproduce their tech. While fighting Clan tech with 3025 tech. THAT would be fun. It lets the computer throw extremely challenging fights rigged against you without needing to swarm you.

Of course, then the internet would be full of Madcat fanboys wanking about how they couldn't pilot one.

Uh.... no. I've played BattleTech for a number of years. You're the one that appears to be the neophyte because you're not taking into account the full tonnage, heat and damage equation for the weapons.

The AC/2 in this game is one of the worst possible weapons to mount versus almost anything else because its tonnage requirement is WAY out of line with its damage/heat/range.

You're comparing the AC/2 to the Medium laser in this game? The AC/2 plus ammo that takes 7 tonnes? 7 Tonnes for ONE 25 damage shot a turn?

Medium Lasers are relatively inefficient - they more serve the purpose of 'hmm I have a couple tonnes left over may as well put them in just to fill out a little more damage' rather than as a primary chassis loadout.

And yet for the same tonnage as an AC/2 you could mount 2 Medium Lasers and 5 heat sinks. Double the damage and the same heat when firing - plus the extra 15 heat dissipation when you're not firing. Lower range can be a factor but since the AC requires direct line of sight means you're not generally in a position to take advantage of much of that long range.

Or you could, once gain, take the same 7 tonnage as the AC/2 plus ammo, and mount an LRM10 with ammo and a heat sink. Only 4 more heat per turn for 40 damage vs 25 with the added bonus of indirect fire so you can actually take advantage of its max range.

The bigger ACs can be worth mounting - they're at least somewhat effective for the tonnage but still significantly less efficient in almost every metric than missiles. But the AC/2 is just trash compared to almost all other options.

Large Lasers and PPCs are indeed pretty bad because their rather unimpressive damage is simply not worth the excessive heat they generate.

Right now missiles are complete king in this game. Several different chassis when properly equipped primarily with missiles and a couple lasers to fill out tonnage can 1 cycle a distressing number of Heavy and Assault mechs.

And that's not even getting into the hilariously broken upgraded missiles you can find int eh campaign with the +damage PER MISSILE.

[Hunter Noventa]

I think I recall the devs mentioning they do want to do a Clan expansion at some point, so we'll see how they handle that. I'm not super into the Battletech lore or anything, I just love my big stompy robots.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Uh.... no. I've played BattleTech for a number of years. You're the one that appears to be the neophyte because you're not taking into account the full tonnage, heat and damage equation for the weapons.

Really? I'll just... smile and nod. If that makes you feel any better.

The AC/2 in this game is one of the worst possible weapons to mount versus almost anything else because its tonnage requirement is WAY out of line with its damage/heat/range.

You're comparing the AC/2 to the Medium laser in this game? The AC/2 plus ammo that takes 7 tonnes? 7 Tonnes for ONE 25 damage shot a turn?

Uhh... you forgot about the other two parts to the equation: heat and range. The AC/2 has the same heat generation as a machine gun (read: almost zero), and is the only weapon capable of outranging even an LRM system. And it packs a pretty decent punch. A better one than the original, at least. It is relevant in the part of the game it is found in: the early part. Where you are dealing with scouts. And 25 damage to a single location, at very high accuracy for very long range, is sufficient to strip armor on any given location. That Blackjack you are given is pure sniping and ranged fire support, and is excellent at stripping armor at long range against light and damaged medium mechs.

Granted, you aren't wanting to use it against heavy and assault mechs, but that's a whole 'nother dynamic.

Medium Lasers are relatively inefficient - they more serve the purpose of 'hmm I have a couple tonnes left over may as well put them in just to fill out a little more damage' rather than as a primary chassis loadout.

Pardon while I wipe coffee off of my monitor...

Ahem. Perhaps you are unaware that the Medium Laser has the SINGLE HIGHEST DAMAGE PER TON RATIO in the entire GAME? Not to mention the best damage to heat ratio of any energy weapon. So... what's that again about relatively inefficient?

And yet for the same tonnage as an AC/2 you could mount 2 Medium Lasers and 5 heat sinks. Double the damage and the same heat when firing - plus the extra 15 heat dissipation when you're not firing. Lower range can be a factor but since the AC requires direct line of sight means you're not generally in a position to take advantage of much of that long range.

And you'll quarter your range, and STILL build up heat. Your point?

Do keep in mind that range has two uses: reaching out and fragging someone from halfway across the map, and two... it also increases your short and medium range for that weapon, making it FAR easier to hit it at ranges that other weapon systems are at extreme range. You almost cannot miss with an AC/2 unless they choke up on you and into minimum range, which is where your four medium lasers on the Blackjack come in handy.

Or you could, once gain, take the same 7 tonnage as the AC/2 plus ammo, and mount an LRM10 with ammo and a heat sink. Only 4 more heat per turn for 40 damage vs 25 with the added bonus of indirect fire so you can actually take advantage of its max range.

Okay, here's another very neophyte mistake you are making. LRM's don't hit with all of their missiles every shot, they only hit with some of them. So your comparison is actually way off. They deal roughly the same damage in any viable combat scenario, with a 4 heat tradoff against indirect fire capability.

Second off, and another mistake players new to the tabletop/TBS version frequently make, is the difference between a missile system and a direct-fire system, which is to say the LRM can act like a shotgun, hitting many different hit locations, while the AC's and energy weapons do all their damage to a single location. This is a CRITICAL difference in weapon behavior, because against a fully armored mech, you don't want to pepper it all over with missiles, you want to punch a couple of holes first, THEN start peppering it with missiles, bringing up the potential for some crits. AC/2 will punch that hole in light mechs, and the AC/5 can even do so against some medium mechs. To a single location. Your LRM/10 might hit five or six times, and each missile doing 4 damage across the board. Useless, unless some of those locations have already been stripped of armor.

The bigger ACs can be worth mounting - they're at least somewhat effective for the tonnage but still significantly less efficient in almost every metric than missiles. But the AC/2 is just trash compared to almost all other options.

You are welcome to your opinion. I would have agreed in the 3025 tabletop version, in that version the AC/2 did literally 2 points of damage, to compare to Medium Laser's 5 damage. But in this game, they've been beefed up to be extremely competitive.

Large Lasers and PPCs are indeed pretty bad because their rather unimpressive damage is simply not worth the excessive heat they generate.

Yes and no. Take a look at the tonnage and crit slots. Like you were talking about earlier when comparing against the AC's. Yes, they do lots of heat, but they also do lots of damage to a single hit location at a good range, making them excellent to try to strip armor off of a single location for follow-up attacks to exploit. Obviously, you don't want to sport *many* of them, but a mech with an AC/10 and PPC in tandem can dish out a distressing amount of damage to one or two locations, which can easily punch through even an Assault's armor on a limb, from range, without nearly the overheat of two PPC's but at the same time being able to mount them both and have relevant amounts of armor and heat sinks.

You seem to be looking at individual weapon systems and grading them individually without looking at their role in combat. I suggest you revise this.

Right now missiles are complete king in this game. Several different chassis when properly equipped primarily with missiles and a couple lasers to fill out tonnage can 1 cycle a distressing number of Heavy and Assault mechs.

Oh sure, Missiles can be very strong, but you are overestimating their effectiveness. Granted, the stability system gave them a hefty increase in effectiveness, however without something capable of punching holes with single-location damage, missiles are a brute-force approach to destroying mechs, and will require far more salvos to kill a mech than those that are supported with single-location punches before hand.

And that's not even getting into the hilariously broken upgraded missiles you can find int eh campaign with the +damage PER MISSILE.

Or the even more broken +50% crit chance. But then, you also get bonus damage AC/20's too. All of the ++ weapons are hilariously broken in their own way.