Battletech! (The new one)

[Alent]

Or, more simply put, the Unseen.

The mods that add the oldschool Unseen mechs in all their 1980's anime glory cannot come fast enough.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Or, more simply put, the Unseen.

Not so Unseen anymore, now that Harmony Gold has been found to actually not own the copyrights to the original Macross mechs that allegedly the Battletech 'unseen' mechs were violations thereof, since by the time HG showed up, those rights were already assigned and were unavailable to be assigned to HG (see also: HG vs Tatsunoko suit which proved provenance of this, then HG vs Hairbrained, Piranha Games, and others, where that was used as evidence to show that HG had no case and won a Judgment where HG's case was rejected with prejudice, meaning they can't bring the same suit to the courts again).

So these mechs might yet be showing up in either this game in future expansions/DLC and in MW5. I believe one or two has already shown up in MWO, but I could be mistaken since I have very little interest in the Mechwarrior branch of the Battletech franchise.

[Gnoman]

Not so Unseen anymore, now that Harmony Gold has been found to actually not own the copyrights to the original Macross mechs that allegedly the Battletech 'unseen' mechs were violations thereof, since by the time HG showed up, those rights were already assigned and were unavailable to be assigned to HG (see also: HG vs Tatsunoko suit which proved provenance of this, then HG vs Hairbrained, Piranha Games, and others, where that was used as evidence to show that HG had no case and won a Judgment where HG's case was rejected with prejudice, meaning they can't bring the same suit to the courts again).

So these mechs might yet be showing up in either this game in future expansions/DLC and in MW5. I believe one or two has already shown up in MWO, but I could be mistaken since I have very little interest in the Mechwarrior branch of the Battletech franchise.

Things may be headed in that direction, but it isn't nearly as clear cut as that.

The Unseen that have shown up in other works (such as MWO) are Project Phoenix-style redesigns, where they changed things just enough to squeak by.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Things may be headed in that direction, but it isn't nearly as clear cut as that.

The Unseen that have shown up in other works (such as MWO) are Project Phoenix-style redesigns, where they changed things just enough to squeak by.

That contains a lot of out of date information, despite the very recent date of publication.

First off, Harmony Gold vs Tatsunoko has ruled explicitly that:

c. The 2003-A is valid and binding on Respondent, and Claimant has been granted therein all of Respondent's copyright rights in Macross, except for the visual depiction of the original 41 animated graphic characters from the underlying Program, pursuant thereto;

Which means HG doesn't own the copyrights to the images they are suing under. Which means they have precisely zero case. Harebrained has already gotten a Summary Judgment which, as is properly mentioned, is VERY difficult to obtain, because it requires that there is not even a reasonable case to put forth from HG. And while they didn't need to use the previous court ruling that HG *DOES NOT OWN* the copyrights to the images of the 'hidden' mechs, I fail to see why the others cannot simply apply this ruling in their case.

In other words, it's about as open and shut as you might like. HG is drawing things out for the other two, but in the end, they cannot hope to win when they do not possess ownership of the properties they are suing over.

In short, the Letters Rogatory is nothing more than a stalling tactic to force PGI to spend more money to make HG go away once and for all.

[Gnoman]

Sorry, but I'm going to assume the professional who published a summary three days ago already knew about a decision from a year ago when he wrote his summary.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Sorry, but I'm going to assume the professional who published a summary three days ago already knew about a decision from a year ago when he wrote his summary.

It's possible he was simply playing devil's advocate, or tossing up a sheet anchor to try to protect the article from backlash. At any rate, we'll see when the final judgment comes, one way or the other. For myself, I'll be happy when HG finally gets slapped down for their legal bullying over the decades.

[Olinser]

Or, more simply put, the Unseen.

Not really. The Locust, Griffin, Battlemaster, Thunderbolt and Shadow Hawk were all originally Unseen mechs as well and they're all in the game. Probably one or two others that I'm forgetting about as well.

They were all effectively updated and re-designed starting around 2015 to avoid any potential copyright claims.

All 7 of the mechs that he specified have also been updated so there shouldn't be any issue with including them in the game since they've already done it with others.

[Olinser]

Sorry, but I'm going to assume the professional who published a summary three days ago already knew about a decision from a year ago when he wrote his summary.

I'm going to assume that the 'professional' was like most others in his profession and did poor research on a subject he and his normal circle of contacts knew very little about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gell-Mann_amnesia_effect

[mangosta71]

Not really. The Locust, Griffin, Battlemaster, Thunderbolt and Shadow Hawk were all originally Unseen mechs as well and they're all in the game. Probably one or two others that I'm forgetting about as well.

Aye, you forgot the Griffin and Wolverine. But yes, the art was changed so that there was no case for copyright infringement even if the courts ruled in HG's favor. So where are those iconic designs?

[Drasius]

Not really. The Locust, Griffin, Battlemaster, Thunderbolt and Shadow Hawk were all originally Unseen mechs as well and they're all in the game. Probably one or two others that I'm forgetting about as well.

They were all effectively updated and re-designed starting around 2015 to avoid any potential copyright claims.

All 7 of the mechs that he specified have also been updated so there shouldn't be any issue with including them in the game since they've already done it with others.

There's different levels of Unseen since Battletech stole legally liscenced designs from 3 different sources: Fang of the Sun: Dougram, Macross and Crusher Joe. The FotS:D stuff (and the Locust from Crusher Joe) is the Reseen we have in the game now while most of the really Iconic stuff that stupid grognards valued members of the fanbase won't STFU about are all Macross related.

While HG are still being their usual stupid selves and HBS have pretty much got their stuff sorted as far as that's concerned, HG has pending stuff against PGI (who are the people who ruined made MWO and who HBS liscence the designs for all their 'mechs from).

Long story short: Some of the Unseen are OK to be included as Reseen, some must remain Unseen for now.

One way or the other, HG lose their rights to the designs in 2021, so, at worst, you'll see 'em then, but given the results of some of the most recent rounds of litigation, I wouldn't be surprised if they pop up before that, but I doubt it'll be this year.

[Inarius]

Not really. The Locust, Griffin, Battlemaster, Thunderbolt and Shadow Hawk were all originally Unseen mechs as well and they're all in the game. Probably one or two others that I'm forgetting about as well.

They were all effectively updated and re-designed starting around 2015 to avoid any potential copyright claims.

All 7 of the mechs that he specified have also been updated so there shouldn't be any issue with including them in the game since they've already done it with others.

From what I understand of the case back in the 90s is redesigning wasn't allowed in the settlement because at the time FASA had been found to be willfully infringing so they got raked over the coals. So when the mechs were redesigned Harmony Gold went and launched a lawsuit since it was in violation of the original settlement, but well its pretty much backfiring on them because the rights in Japan got cleared up in the early 2000s so HG is pretty much holding a flaming bag of poo at this point.

As it is Harebrained can't add any other unseen mechs to the game because it opens them up to a refiling of the lawsuit by HG and lets face it HG is so sue happy theyd do it just to spite Harebrained and cost them extra legal fees. Its better to just wait out the other legal battles HG is in and if/when HG loses then the rest of the unseen can be added in without having to pay the lawyers more money.

[Drasius]

From what I understand of the case back in the 90s is redesigning wasn't allowed in the settlement because at the time FASA had been found to be willfully infringing so they got raked over the coals. So when the mechs were redesigned Harmony Gold went and launched a lawsuit since it was in violation of the original settlement, but well its pretty much backfiring on them because the rights in Japan got cleared up in the early 2000s so HG is pretty much holding a flaming bag of poo at this point.

As it is Harebrained can't add any other unseen mechs to the game because it opens them up to a refiling of the lawsuit by HG and lets face it HG is so sue happy theyd do it just to spite Harebrained and cost them extra legal fees. Its better to just wait out the other legal battles HG is in and if/when HG loses then the rest of the unseen can be added in without having to pay the lawyers more money.

You're missing the latest update on the saga - HBS basically got a ruling telling HG to bugger off and stop filing claims against the still twitching remains of FASA HBS.

http://www.sarna.net/news/harmony-go...mes-dismissed/

The issue is that while HBS is basically in the clear, PGI, the people who HBS get their 'mech meshes from and the makers of the Reseen, are still in a pending case against HG. If that gets resolved in PGI's favour (fairly likely but not certain by any means), then you'll see physicists closely examining the speed with which the HG Unseen get distributed to MWO and Battletech as it'll break all currently held notions about the maximum speed something can travel.

[Inarius]

You're missing the latest update on the saga - HBS basically got a ruling telling HG to bugger off and stop filing claims against the still twitching remains of FASA HBS.

http://www.sarna.net/news/harmony-go...mes-dismissed/

The issue is that while HBS is basically in the clear, PGI, the people who HBS get their 'mech meshes from and the makers of the Reseen, are still in a pending case against HG. If that gets resolved in PGI's favour (fairly likely but not certain by any means), then you'll see physicists closely examining the speed with which the HG Unseen get distributed to MWO and Battletech as it'll break all currently held notions about the maximum speed something can travel.

Actually I was aware of that, it relates to the game in its current state. As in any mechs in the game are fine, but if they add in stuff like the Marauder and Pheonix Hawk HG can take them back to court again. At least until the Piranha Games (dunno why I was thinking Piranha Bytes earlier ) lawsuit is settled. Or Harebrained can just plop those mechs in the game and deal with it in court themselves, but why not piggyback off the other suits out there?

[Drasius]

Actually I was aware of that, it relates to the game in its current state. As in any mechs in the game are fine, but if they add in stuff like the Marauder and Pheonix Hawk HG can take them back to court again. At least until the Pihranha Games (dunno why I was thinking Piranha Bytes earlier ) lawsuit is settled. Or Harebrained can just plop those mechs in the game and deal with it in court themselves, but why not piggyback off the other suits out there?

Ah, read your other post with a very different interpretation of what you were saying. Apologies for telling you how to suck eggs.

[The Glyphstone]

So I finally finished the campaign, and was very, very disappointed with the final story mission. Fox Only No Items Final Destination as the climactic mission of the entire game was a huge letdown.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So I finally finished the campaign, and was very, very disappointed with the final story mission. Fox Only No Items Final Destination as the climactic mission of the entire game was a huge letdown.

Eh, I consider that more of a prologue mission since the evil overlord uncle already gave up.

[Alent]

So I finally finished the campaign, and was very, very disappointed with the final story mission. Fox Only No Items Final Destination as the climactic mission of the entire game was a huge letdown.

I feel like the dev team missed a golden opportunity to use a Matar.

[Drasius]

I feel like the dev team missed a golden opportunity to use a Matar.

Other than it being a blatant copy of heavily inspired by one of the Macross mechs, meaning risking kicking up more trouble with them (see spoiler for the Macross original) as well as being a failed prototype that couldn't even move and ultra-rare even in the Rim Worlds Republic or Terran Hedgemeony over 250 years ago a thousand light years from where we're based kitted out with copious amounts of LosTech and plauged by association with the Amaris usurpation.

Spoiler

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But yeah, other than those minor details, totally a missed opportunity.

[The Glyphstone]

Worst bit was being denied salvage from the boss mech, despite getting an incap kill. I wanted to go 2 for 2 on that character's 'mechs as trophies.

[mangosta71]

Worst bit was being denied salvage from the boss mech, despite getting an incap kill. I wanted to go 2 for 2 on that character's 'mechs as trophies.

I saw rumors flying around that you could only salvage that Mech if you reloaded. I can't say whether you have to, but I did and got it.

However, I cored that character's Mech in our first encounter so I didn't get it as a trophy. It would have been awesome to go into the final fight and say "Hey, do you recognize this Mech?"

Of course, talking with my brother made me realize that I missed an opportunity with my character name and callsign, so now I have to play the whole campaign again.

[InvisibleBison]

So I've been thinking: Your mechtechs can replace a section of a mech that's been destroyed. Over time, they can replace every section of a mech in this fashion. So why can't they build new mechs? (From a lore perspective, that is. The gameplay reasons are fairly obvious.)

[Alent]

Other than it being a blatant copy of heavily inspired by one of the Macross mechs, meaning risking kicking up more trouble with them (see spoiler for the Macross original) as well as being a failed prototype that couldn't even move and ultra-rare even in the Rim Worlds Republic or Terran Hedgemeony over 250 years ago a thousand light years from where we're based kitted out with copious amounts of LosTech and plauged by association with the Amaris usurpation.

Spoiler

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But yeah, other than those minor details, totally a missed opportunity.

The Destroid Monster argument might have more merit if not for the design of the King Crab itself. I'm sure a modern art take on it would end up looking more like the Omega or Wallethammer $40k's Taunar, and the tiiiiny dorsal cannons on the new game's King Crab look way better than the giant artillery pieces on either of those. (that alone would save it.) As to the rarity... I'm just going to shrug and point at how many periphery pirates have Steiner Scout Lances, and remind you that this is fiction, probability services drama like a cheap hooker.

Picture the battle: You walk into the arena only to discover the Matar standing in the middle of the lake, surrounded by 4 large pillars you have to use as LoS screens against it. It can't move- only turn 90 degrees at a time- and the pilot has bulwark with a massive stability damage reduction gyro, backed up with ECM to keep you from LRMing it off its feet. (couldn't hurt to toss in an anachronistic AMS while you're at it.) The enemy lance, instead of attacking with suicidal abandon, would take defensive positions to the mech's rear to prevent you from flanking it.

The very things that make it a failed prototype? Make it a gimmicky, perfect choice of spite for that final battle. They would also explain why you can't salvage it.

So I've been thinking: Your mechtechs can replace a section of a mech that's been destroyed. Over time, they can replace every section of a mech in this fashion. So why can't they build new mechs?

In universe: My memory of likely long retconned novels is that the fusion reactors that power mechs can only be built in rare facilities only available to the major houses, so while you can replace the damaged parts you can't build new reactors. The fact that losing a CT destroys the reactor has been handwaved by the new internals system.

Out of universe: Because then you'd be able to build Atlas IIs and King Crabs at the start of the game just with enough grinding, and this is bad for balance.

[mangosta71]

As to the rarity... I'm just going to shrug and point at how many periphery pirates have Steiner Scout Lances, and remind you that this is fiction, probability services drama like a cheap hooker.

Yeah, by the lore you should pretty much only find assault Mechs in House militaries. Pirates in the Periphery shouldn't be able to scavenge anything bigger than a medium. Every weight class increases rarity by an order of magnitude; for every assault, there should be around 10 heavies, 100 mediums, and 1000 lights. If a pirate outfit got their hands on an Atlas, the FedCom would send a regiment to tell them in no uncertain terms that they don't get to play with such toys.

But what kind of game would result from following the lore in that manner? The players (in general) want the firepower that the heaviest Mechs bring to bear on the battlefield and don't care that there are only a few dozen 100-ton Mechs in existence in the Inner Sphere at the time.

[DigoDragon]

Reading this, I am getting madder and madder I can't play it.

I'll join you on that feeling. This game seems like real fun to play and I don't think I've touched a good big robot video game since the old days of the Mechwarrior series (I think the last one I played was MW3).

I had less experience with the tabletop version, since everyone only wanted to play hover tanks or aerospace fighters instead of giant robots.

In universe: My memory of likely long retconned novels is that the fusion reactors that power mechs can only be built in rare facilities only available to the major houses, so while you can replace the damaged parts you can't build new reactors.

This sounds like what I remember as the explanation. Building "compact" fusion reactors to power the mechs was a well guarded operation among the houses.

[Olinser]

So I've been thinking: Your mechtechs can replace a section of a mech that's been destroyed. Over time, they can replace every section of a mech in this fashion. So why can't they build new mechs? (From a lore perspective, that is. The gameplay reasons are fairly obvious.)

From a lore perspective - they can. Building and replacing mech limbs/torsos/heads is actually not particularly difficult and easily accomplished by most techs.

What they CAN'T easily replace is the actual lostech weapons, double heat sinks, Endo Steel chassis, and most importantly, the fusion engines on some mechs. Most of the lostech Mechs were ones that rely upon either Endo Steel or lostech fusion engines to function, and to manufacture them without the lostech components would result in a significantly less combat effective chassis - i.e. the Black Knight was a lostech mech because they could TECHNICALLY build more, but without the Endo Steel and double heat sinks, it was just a terrible mech.

In the game it's very much the same. You've got the lostech Highlander that you find, and you can rebuild the chassis. What you can't replace is the double heat sinks or the Gauss rifle.

And on the lore aspect there are quite a few mech where, they can technically manufacture more, but the factory itself is lostech and can't actually be replaced if it is destroyed. In-universe the Panther was an iconic Draconis Combine mech because the only remaining operational Panther factory was inside its borders. This was also the case for JumpShips - they could build as many ships as they wanted, but the actual FTL engines (the KF drive), they could only maintain the lostech factories that auto manufactured them. They were completely unable to build more KF drive factories or replace them if they were destroyed. In fact in the time period of the campaign actually intentionally destroying a JumpShip was considered a war crime by the Houses. And of course there was not a single WarShip KF drive factory operational in the entire Inner Sphere, so WarShips themselves simply didn't exist any more.

Then, of course, the Helm memory core occurred and the Inner Sphere regained the ability to make Endo Steel and double heat sinks, and many lostech designs started being produced again.

[Triaxx]

Grandfather, you were there, why did the Star League fall? The assassination of it's leader? Rebellion on the rim?

No, it was putting double heat sinks on Mechs with Gauss Rifles that did it. Like a liquid nitrogen radiator in an electric car!

[Drasius]

So I've been thinking: Your mechtechs can replace a section of a mech that's been destroyed. Over time, they can replace every section of a mech in this fashion. So why can't they build new mechs? (From a lore perspective, that is. The gameplay reasons are fairly obvious.)

Because the game takes some pretty huge liberties with what we manage to scrape together for the sake of fun. In the reality canon universe, it's the same reason why a home mechanic can replace most of the bits and bobs that break on a car and a workshop can fix almost anything that's broken given the right rquipment, but only a proper factory can assemble new autos. The Argo gets a lot handwaved away for the sake of expediency.

One thing you need to keep in mind, especially with the 3025 setting, is that it's very heavily based on being 5 minutes into the future in the 80's, so the sort of thing we take for granted now (like the expected level of knowledge about anything to do with electronics for a prime example) really doesn't gel with the setting.

Yeah, by the lore you should pretty much only find assault Mechs in House militaries. Pirates in the Periphery shouldn't be able to scavenge anything bigger than a medium. Every weight class increases rarity by an order of magnitude; for every assault, there should be around 10 heavies, 100 mediums, and 1000 lights. If a pirate outfit got their hands on an Atlas, the FedCom would send a regiment to tell them in no uncertain terms that they don't get to play with such toys.

But what kind of game would result from following the lore in that manner? The players (in general) want the firepower that the heaviest Mechs bring to bear on the battlefield and don't care that there are only a few dozen 100-ton Mechs in existence in the Inner Sphere at the time.

The numbers for the ratios are a bit off, but the idea is right. See table below for relevant numbers (3028 era)


As for the Feddies (or anyone else) sending a regiment out to tell some pirates off for having an Atlas, not so much. This is 3025 when regiments were rarely assembled all in the same place and a company was a sizable force to garrison non-border worlds, you don't send regiments anywhere to do anything other than invade another great house.

100 tonners (basically only the Atlas and King Crab in 3025 and you're still mainly looking at Atlases since the KC is almost extinct at this point) make up ~4% of the various assaults (as per the RAT's), so you're looking at ~130'ish 100 tonners across the Inner Sphere (out of ~3300 assaults), with a small handful (like, maybe 5-10) more across the various periphery states.

The Destroid Monster argument might have more merit if not for the design of the King Crab itself. I'm sure a modern art take on it would end up looking more like the Omega or Wallethammer $40k's Taunar, and the tiiiiny dorsal cannons on the new game's King Crab look way better than the giant artillery pieces on either of those. (that alone would save it.) As to the rarity... I'm just going to shrug and point at how many periphery pirates have Steiner Scout Lances, and remind you that this is fiction, probability services drama like a cheap hooker.

Picture the battle: You walk into the arena only to discover the Matar standing in the middle of the lake, surrounded by 4 large pillars you have to use as LoS screens against it. It can't move- only turn 90 degrees at a time- and the pilot has bulwark with a massive stability damage reduction gyro, backed up with ECM to keep you from LRMing it off its feet. (couldn't hurt to toss in an anachronistic AMS while you're at it.) The enemy lance, instead of attacking with suicidal abandon, would take defensive positions to the mech's rear to prevent you from flanking it.

The very things that make it a failed prototype? Make it a gimmicky, perfect choice of spite for that final battle. They would also explain why you can't salvage it.

Really?
This:

Spoiler: Destroid

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looks more like this:

Spoiler: King Crab

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than this:

Spoiler: Stone Rhino/Behemoth

Show

?

As to the canon being so willing to service drama like a cheap harlot, well, yeah, that's my chief complaint about the game. The last thing we need is more super special snowflake forgotten star league era rubbish being in the hands of periphery nobodies. I mean, I totally understand why we have a flood of assault 'mechs, why the storage space of my dropship holds a battalion+ of 'mechs and why we get to go raid a castle brian knockoff, but it's already stretching willing suspension of disbelief to the breaking point. Adding to that with a somehow surviving copy of a a failed experimental that was a bad idea 250 years ago with superior tech on the other side of the setting 1000+ lightyears away pushes beyond bad fanfiction.

[The Glyphstone]

Which surviving copy of a failed experiment? The experimental mobile space station/super-dropship, or the experimental malicious computer virus/pseudo-AI?

[Drasius]

Which surviving copy of a failed experiment? The experimental mobile space station/super-dropship, or the experimental malicious computer virus/pseudo-AI?

Neither, I was refering to Alent's "suggestion" that they should have used a Matar, which was a failed Amaris era superheavy 'mech. Now that you mention it though, it would have been more believable than that idiotic virus sub-plot. I can only shake my head at how anyone thought that was a good idea.

[spectralphoenix]

So I've been thinking: Your mechtechs can replace a section of a mech that's been destroyed. Over time, they can replace every section of a mech in this fashion. So why can't they build new mechs? (From a lore perspective, that is. The gameplay reasons are fairly obvious.)

My understanding is that mech parts are both crazy durable and tend to break down or get knocked off long before they're actually unrecoverable. The fusion engines in particular usually shut down when breached rather than explode. So it's not so much that the dropship comes back with a head and one leg and Yang builds an Atlas around them so much as the salvage team picks up all the little bits that got blown off and he patches the reactor, fixes up the gyros, and welds the arms back on.