Mike Mearls: Exploring the "Why" of D&D Mythology in 'Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes

[Tetrasodium]

Setting bashing?

Um okay, sure!

Thanks for asking!



Okay, in Faerun I don't like the factions, Elminster, the factions, Drizzt, the factions, the Harpers, and did I mention the factions?

Alright in Eberron I don't like magical robot PC's, magi-tech, the common use of high magic, and... well that's really about it, the setting seems pretty cool with it's post-world-war mileau and I really like the island of Xen'Drik.

---

That out of the way, I've watched more of the other promotional videos for Mordenkainen's Tome of*Foes, which are working in getting me even more eager to get the book.

One thing that's caught my eye and ear is happy Mearls seem to briefly mention Nentir Vale, I'd like to see more on that setting.

mostly correct about eberron. It's more wide magic than high magic. something happened in 4e that played up the level of that wide magic into high magic. ritual magic gone wild, magic items by level, etc are largely the blame imo. the magic robot thing got heavily played up in numerous ways in 4e. Prior to 4e, warforged were more lost intelligent golems race with the types of hate & sometimes mental abuse stereotypes you normally see directed at immigrants/refugees & automation from the people it just got fired for the 5th time in large numbers. 4e played down the tragic elements & up the robot similarities.

And that mythogy isn't FR either. Elves being shape-changing semi-divine creatures until they ****ed themselves over is something 5e writers invented for this edition, to give one example.

Wgile true that the elves being shape changing blahblah is new, that alone is not the only bone of concern. Every time they talk about elves, dwarves, whatever, they mention various dieties & the importance of those deities in shaping various things. The problem is that those deities come from forgotten realms & greyhawk pretty much exclusively or they come from the earlier source material those settings were directly evolved from into settings of their own. They fit with the meddling & involved with mortal affairs pantheon of those two settings & their baselines line up with those two settings.

Compared to darksun, eberron, & maybe a few others... greyhawk & forgotten realms are so similar that you can take something drawn from the baselines of one & transplant it to the other with little more need than some name changes. Goblinoids are basically the same, elves & dwarves ditto, demons ditto, orcs, gnolls, so on & so forth. In darksun, oh most of them are dead... in eberron?... elves got pointy ears & dwarves/goblins are both short; but there are too many low level fundamental differences between eberron/darksun and forgotten realms/greyhawk to take grand plots & the results of them or frameworks based on them to simply move over without significant changes.


Yes you could say maybe elves descended/evolved like so in darksun at some point before everything went to crud. In eberron>...elves are the former slaves of the giant empire. That bit is relevant because said empire used draconic magic to magebred them into elves from captured eldar.... there is no room there for a forgotten realms/greyhawk inspired metaplot about correlon unless you weant to say corellon/lolth/etc were all members of the giant empire of xen'driik & traveled to forgotten realms/greyhawk/etc to either begin, test, or repeat their experiments with draconic magic on captured eldar in spheres where time moves faster or something. That kinda thing creates significant ripples downline since it would change the role of giants wildly, dragons to some degree, numerous things about gods, etc.






Various people have mentioned factions as being disliked as described, considered a good thing, being basically questgivers, etc... Most of that is true; but factions came into the discussion by way of pointing out that the CoS ravenloft adventure. I can understand people invested in AL wanting to carry over their character/renown into CoS sure, but ravenloft itself has many many many power groups that are unique to ravebnloft. Rather than include a few pages about some of them & maybe a table that shows how to convert renown gained from one into claims & tavern tales that count as renown in another. Part of why CoS feels like a faerunized ravenloft adventure is because they removed all of those factions present in ravenloft to make room for not rufflinf faerun faction feathers. For fans of settingB (ie ravenloft in this case), they don't give a rat's juicy pellet about those faerun derived feathers.

Now ravenloft still mostly functions as a setting with problems without those factions, but a setting like eberron falls apart because the native factions are incredibly important & complexly involved in too much. If concern number one in implementing factions in $setting is not ruffling the feathers established for the forgotten realms derived factions, then $seting is going to have about as much as mr tusk has in common with a walrus.

...I'm at a loss to understand what your point even is at least in the context of this thread.

Tetra was arguing that any bit of lore that specifically references a setting is toxic because it implies that this is the case for all settings. He's "optimistic" in that he thinks they're going to be doing less of this in MToF.

That ias very different from what I was saying.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Tetra, in one simple, concise sentence, what are you saying?

[MeeposFire]

Frankly settings get changes all the time and the idea that you can or should stop it is a hopeless and foolish endeavor. The only settings that do not change are the ones that are dead. Now some change in different ways of course FR tends to do it by time skips and major events (which I really have found to dislike even though I like FR) or you can be like Eberrron and tend toward making only minor changes to make some things fit or to make use of things as they are created (this is my preference and Eberron is probably my favorite setting though man some people her make me almost ashamed to admit that). Yea some things changed but seriously some of you are taking this way too seriously heck since the complaints are about lore just grab your previous edition book and use it for the lore. Lore is easy to be edition agnostic especially if it is not like FR and tries to actually explain mechanical differences via lore.

When I played my 4e Eberron games my 3e Eberron book was there. When I played 4e Dark Sun my AD&D books were there and I used them. When I played FR in 3e I used all the lore from AD&D BECAUSE I LIKED IT BETTER and I did not think I had to come on here and make a complaint that in the current set of books that they came up with new ideas and were pushing them ( I may end up talking about how I did not like an idea but I would not complain that they were making new ideas it is their game to design for after all).

I mean I did not complain when the 3e monster manuals kept saying all the information about goblins and gnolls that did not fit in with Eberron at the time. To me that would be silly because of course those books said something different because Eberron made specific exceptions for various things and I understood that and I also understood that if the monster manual says something different it either does nto apply at all to my Eberron game or I have to adapt it. IN either case I move on and call it a day. The only reason that in later manuals they sometimes gave a specific shout out in the changes for Eberron is because that was the new setting they were pushing and they wanted to support it. They often only put out changes for the settings they were actively supporting so I find little difference from how it is now.

[strangebloke]

That ias very different from what I was saying.

Not very different I think.

Your mantra has been "Don't put setting A into setting B." and that's perhaps a better summary of your position, but it also understates the breadth of what you mean by "putting setting A into setting B."

A plain reading of that statement would be: "Don't put warforged as a common race in Faerun, don't put Moradin in Eberron."

But your critique is way more inclusive than that. You've expressed frustration at basically every single passage in either the DMG, PHB or MM that references anything setting specific.

"Obould Many-Arrows is mentioned in the orc entry!"
"Drizzt is mentioned in the Drow entry!"
"Most of the fluff text for human cultures comes from Faerun!"

Moreover, you also object to adventure modules even mentioning other planes, even when those mentions are justified by every edition's lore. CoS mentions both Faerun (the player comes from there, setting up the fish-out-water scenario that enhances the horror experience) and Greyhawk (spoilers).

So, I'm pretty sure that I was accurately representing your position.

[Unoriginal]

Unoriginal said that optimism was misplaced, because the reasons for the setting changes that Tetra has disliked are still present. They changed Ravenloft to sell more CoS modules, and it's fair to say that they'll keep doing that. Indeed, the devs have said that they're going to continue to allow for AL continuity between campaigns. With that in mind, he sees Tetra is setting himself up for disappointment, and expressed annoyance at Tetra for repeating this pattern of optimism followed by inevitable disappointment several times.

To be 100% clear, what I said is that the devs have been adamantly clear they are using the "all setting worlds are in the same Material Plane" setting for the official books, and that Tetrasodium made this thread despite knowing that, and so it was "setting the devs up for failure to meet Tetrasodium's standards" as a way to complain harder.

Not my most charitable or pleasant moment on this forum, I admit, but I have a sense of pattern recognition.

I don't know what else you want to call a thread with OP saying "hopefully the devs are not doing X", when he has made dozens and dozens of posts about how much he hates X and that the devs have repeatedly stated they are doing X.

I also said, and it was my first post in this thread, that for good or ill, it was the devs' right AND job to modify the settings for a new edition, and that saying that it needed "fixing" was insulting.

[strangebloke]

To be 100% clear, what I said is that the devs have been adamantly clear they are using the "all setting worlds are in the same Material Plane" setting for the official books, and that Tetrasodium made this thread despite knowing that, and so it was "setting the devs up for failure to meet Tetrasodium's standards" as a way to complain harder.

Not my most charitable or pleasant moment on this forum, I admit, but I have a sense of pattern recognition.

I don't know what else you want to call a thread with OP saying "hopefully the devs are not doing X", when he has made dozens and dozens of posts about how much he hates X and that the devs have repeatedly stated they are doing X.

I also said, and it was my first post in this thread, that for good or ill, it was the devs' right AND job to modify the settings for a new edition, and that saying that it needed "fixing" was insulting.

Fair enough. I was trying to be concise and I knew that my understanding of all relevant arguments was a little murky. But I felt I could give you a more fair hearing than EA or Tetra were.

I mean, you wouldn't think that saying "it's the job of WotC to make the settings for this edition" is a particularly contentious statement. No DND setting exists in Plato's world of perfect forms. WotC is making an official DND metasetting, but it can't be objectively 'right' or 'wrong.' It can be objectively poorly written or subjectively boring, but it isn't like 5e FR can be judged against an ideal version of FR.

As far as value goes, it's whatever you make of it.

[Sception]

Settings change all the time, but those changes can be for the better or the worse. And the ability of DM's to 'fix' things didn't stop those things from being better or worse to begin with. 'Publish setting doesn't matter because DM can fix it' doesn't carry a lot of weight. DM's can fix mechanical content, too. Or make it all up whole cloth. All published content is optional, that doesn't nullify judgment of its quality.

consolidated pantheons and cosmology across the game does risk negatively impacting future campaign material which is a shame. And DMs & groups that eschew that material for homebrow are still forced to shell out money for it if they want to access the slim trickle of supplemental mechanical content that is packaged alongside bunches of lore content that they can't really use.

I'm not against this style of book or this book in particular, but there's definitely meaningful criticism to be made of this format for content releases.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Settings change all the time, but those changes can be for the better or the worse. And the ability of DM's to 'fix' things didn't stop those things from being better or worse to begin with. 'Publish setting doesn't matter because DM can fix it' doesn't carry a lot of weight.

We're talking about a situation where there isn't a published setting, so complaints about settings carry virtually no weight either. Again, unless you are playing specifically within the confines of the Sword Coast of Faerun, the burden of world construction is wholly on the DM. There's no published worldbuilding material for 5E outside that one book.

If we get a Dragonlance Campaign Setting with magic trains or a Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting where halfling gods pull talking dinosaurs in rickshaws, then we can start having this discussion about changes to published settings. The Player's Handbook, DMG and Monster Manual are generic documents.

[strangebloke]

I'm not against this style of book or this book in particular, but there's definitely meaningful criticism to be made of this format for content releases.

This is why I'm not buying Volo's. I might consider it for the monsters and races, but the 50-odd pages of Gnoll/Goblin/Orc fluff are just kinda useless to me.

[2D8HP]

This is why I'm not buying Volo's. I might consider it for the monsters and races, but the 50-odd pages of Gnoll/Goblin/Orc fluff are just kinda useless to me.

I thought that the lore on Hags in Volo's was cool.

[Sception]

I personally like the books, I just can see valid complaints on the dearth of supplemental material this edition from those for whom the fluff isn't meaningful. The app/website/whatever letting you purchase just the mechanical content should fill the gap, but the pricing betrays the extent to which the fluff material is seen as empty filler by the publisher, given that the crunch is a small portion of the page count in most of these books, but a much larger portion of the a la carte price.

[KorvinStarmast]

Tetra, in one simple, concise sentence, what are you saying?

I am not sure that this is a plausible request.

@EvilAnagram

I'm perfectly happy to say why it's invalid: The changes made to the story were not in pursuit of adapting it to film, but rather in pursuit of making it long enough for a trilogy.

My core complaint with that movie/movies is roughly as you put it.
They could have done it in one, and maybe a stretch into two.
Three was self-indungent, and a naked money grab. It worked.

I personally like the books, I just can see valid complaints on the dearth of supplemental material this edition from those for whom the fluff isn't meaningful.
The app/website/whatever letting you purchase just the mechanical content should fill the gap, but the pricing betrays the extent to which the fluff material is seen as empty filler by the publisher, given that the crunch is a small portion of the page count in most of these books, but a much larger portion of the a la carte price.

The problem at its root is the "fluff versus crunch" attitude in the first place.
I will now don my asbestos jacket, and have a cigar.

[MeeposFire]

I am not sure that this is a plausible request.

@EvilAnagram
My core complaint with that movie/movies is roughly as you put it.
They could have done it in one, and maybe a stretch into two.
Three was self-indungent, and a naked money grab. It worked.
The problem at its root is the "fluff versus crunch" attitude in the first place.
I will now don my asbestos jacket, and have a cigar.

Lindsay Ellis made a great set of videos about the Hobbit movies and many of the issues in their production that are certainly worth viewing.

[Tetrasodium]

Not very different I think.

Your mantra has been "Don't put setting A into setting B." and that's perhaps a better summary of your position, but it also understates the breadth of what you mean by "putting setting A into setting B."

A plain reading of that statement would be: "Don't put warforged as a common race in Faerun, don't put Moradin in Eberron."

But your critique is way more inclusive than that. You've expressed frustration at basically every single passage in either the DMG, PHB or MM that references anything setting specific.

"Obould Many-Arrows is mentioned in the orc entry!"
"Drizzt is mentioned in the Drow entry!"
"Most of the fluff text for human cultures comes from Faerun!"

Moreover, you also object to adventure modules even mentioning other planes, even when those mentions are justified by every edition's lore. CoS mentions both Faerun (the player comes from there, setting up the fish-out-water scenario that enhances the horror experience) and Greyhawk (spoilers).

So, I'm pretty sure that I was accurately representing your position.

Pretty much yes. Fans of faerun might be upset if WotC declared that warforged were now a race common in faerun... faans of faerun would be bleeping livid if they did that by importing the role of house cannith, the last war, the fallen giant empire of xendrik, & so on in order to do it. Making warforged a standard race in faerun could indeed be done, but if done it should be done in a way that fits that seting. The last war, the fallen giant empire of xendriik almost certainly being the source of cannith's "creation" of the creation forges used to make warforged, the prejudices resulting from armies of warforged suddenly being told to go find jobs & live lives all over due to the treaty of throneholsm so on & so forth... all of that depends on a great number of eberron specific things & a lot of those things are in direct violent contradiction with various things in faerun.


As to "putting mordain in eberron", it could be done in a reasonable way that involves changing mordain & his story into something that fits the setting (ie unlike the faerun warforged import example above). Of particular concern in the case of eberron is the fact that they already dod that in 4e with asmodeous & they did it exactly like the example above... complete with the replacement of planes, addition of planes, somewhat new & different role for demons, so on & so forth. Yes individually many of those changes were often small things & that could be excusable if there were not dozens of trivial ways Asmodious could have had his metaplot changed to fit eberron in ways that would be truly interesting additions to the setting rather than abrasive to it(ie a warlord from shavarath, a demon overlord, a lord of dust, etc). The addition of eldar & feyspires was a bit silly, but interesting in it's own way without conflicting with anything. The replacement of lizardmen with dragonborn was ridiculous because of how incredibly poorly it was described rather than just saying nobody really cared about that backwater swamp enough to lift the skirts so to speak & really check what the differences between these primitive scaled lizardman-like tribes were. Tieflings being created by asmodious was fairly offensive to the setting because the setting has such an absurdly high level of demon interference right from the middle of the setting's own creation myth on that no such origin story was needed for them. A near unlimited number of things ranging from "they just exist in small numbers here & there" all the way to "they mostly live in the demon wastes & house Tharashk(?) setting up an outpost there let to some making their way out" or whatever. Instead of doing something to fit the setting in an interesting manner, they did a ctrl-c -> ctrl-v of their origin from some other setting resulting in a conflict that is both shallow & ill fitting to a setting with significant interconnected depth nearly anywhere you start digging.


As to my objecting to various mentions of different settings... it is important to look at the context of those discussions. For example dmg10-13 talks about different structures of gods. Those structures are packed with various in setting examples at the start. When those various structures get to things like monotheism ideals, etc that are significant things in one setting & pretty much only that setting... the setting references suddenly end Now, XgE page 18 has a small sidebar/cutout on the lower left devoted to "serving a pantheon, philosophy, or force" & that sidebar/cutout moves it from the realm of dmg into a player reference while also mentioning the fact that it's "common" (ie pretty much the norm/default common) in eberron. I dob't care that they put in all sorts of references to different settings in dng 10-13, I care thet they stopped when it got to stuff that applies to eberron but not faerun, greyhawk, etc. They do that kind of thing a lot.


The oroblem with drizzit & the drow entry is that he is not simply "mentioned", drizzt & lolth dominates the drow entry complete with a giant salvatore style drow relevant image of spiders & such while using phrasing that indicates it applies to every setting. That particular argument has gone on for dozens of pages before. The result is that as a gm running a setting where drow are different I need to shatter the massively reinforced stereotypes that have been presented as always applicable before I can introduce things. I'll summarize an actual relevant play experience I had.

• As part of the campaign the players had gone back in time to before the giant empire rose & Ourelonastrix had just begun teaching the secrets of draconic magic to the giants. At this point in history, the giants are the only race other that dragons with anything approaching a culture. This is important.
• dm: "written on the door in draconic & something else you think is probably giant is blahblah," <-- Nobody in the group knew giant & what it said is irrelevant.
• The players had already met Ourelonastrix in the future/present day before getting flung back, but he seemed to just be an old human man of possibly loose wires laughing about how he gets to enjoy being on the giving end of timey wimey type spoilers (dr who & river song type crossing of timelines)
• playerA asked what type of written runes was used
• dm: I'm not sure what it says in the phb, but giants and dragons are the only two races out there with written languages at this time, so I'm going to say either gdraconic runes or it uses its own style of writing
• PlayerA: "ok good enough"
• PlayerB: "Actually it should be dwarven runes"
• GM: "maybe in faerun, but the dwarves don't exist yet & dont come along fleeing Risia from thousands of years so it needs to be its own runes or draconic ones because those are the only two races at this point"
• playerB: "but no the dwarves came along first & then the giants got theur writing because of $event"
• PlayerA: So dwarves don't exist here yet & it's either draconic or giant runes used in giant script? ok great!
• Player B: But that's only the case here in eberron because in most oth...
• GM: So the door opens and...

A one off thing like that is not so disruptive, but when it happens often, the gm needs to decide between ignoring it & allowing baselines to be changed for that bit of irrelevant lore & keeping $otherSetting from hijacking the setting they are running.


Faerun's factions getting about a page & a half in CoS is relevant because it loads up on faerun specific stuff that could be better devoted to fitting in some information about factions & groups that actually exist n ravenloft like these

Spoiler: the list

Show

BAROVIA
Dawnslayers - Morninglord-loyal knighthood of vampire hunters.
Crimson Hounds - Elite enforcers of the Von Zarovich bloodline. Known to put whole villages to the sword to teach a specific point.
Tyrant Mages - Von Zarovich family mage elite and secret police. Known for their cruelty.
Keepers of the Black Feather - Secretive Barovian lodge that wages an unceasing shadow war against the creatures of the night.
Order of the Guardians - A monastic order of lorekeepers dedicated to finding cursed objects and keeping them out of the wrong hands.
Gundarkite Rebels - Organized resistance to outside rule of Gundarkite territory.
Red Vardo Traders - Band of salvagers and thieves who 'return' items to their 'original owners'.
Ba'al Verzi - Infamous fraternity of assassins.
Church of Ezra - No firm foothold in establishing wide belief. Seen as Borcan poisoners and agents.
Church of Hala - Presence in Bstobis. Regarded as helpful and unobtrusive, mostly left to their own devices.
Cult of the Morninglord - Most popular religion in Barovia. Large Gundarakite following which tends to cause suspicion.
Cult of Nerull/Erlin - Marginal presence, small numbers of Gundarakites associate Nerull with ethnic pride. Underground following.

BORCA
Boristi Trading House - A major merchant interest, led by the Boristi family of Borca.
1st Sect of Ezra - LN "Home Faith" centered in the Great Cathedral of Levkarest. Almost all Borcans worship/pay lip services to Ezra. Powerful church base.
The Scions of Yakov Dilisnya - Secret society in the church of Ezra, dedicated to creating an empire using the influence and power of the Ezrite church.
Dilisnya Crime Family - One of the most potent criminal organizations in Ravenloft, led by Ivan Dilisnya.
Church of Hala - Small following in the rural areas of Borca. Often used as scapegoats as witches.
Academy of Style - Expensive and prestigious finishing school in Levkarest open only to the most respected families.

DARKON
4th Sect of Ezra - LE "Zealots" branch of the faith centered in Nevuchar Springs. Militant and steadily growing in popularity for its beliefs in fighting the darkness.
The Kargat - Secret police dedicated to furthering the will of Azalin Rex. Membership all monstrous.
The Unholy Order of the Grave - A nightmarish society of monsters who literally worship death.
Dark Delvers - Mystery cult centered in Darkon, searching for truth about the Hated Mother and her power.
Brautslava Institute - Teaches various arcane-related subjects
The Fraternity of Shadows - An arcane cabal (Illusionists) of researchers and scholars who seek to know the truth behind Ravenloft and control it. Based in Brautslava.
The Order of the Guardians - A monastic order of lorekeepers dedicated to finding cursed objects and keeping them out of the wrong hands.
University of Il Aulk - Once the greatest school on the Core, now a crumbling ruin in the dead city.
The Eternal Order - Offically sanctioned cult of the dead though heavily diminished over time. Churches are largely autonomous from each other.
Cult of the Overseer - Popular in the west, heavy message of compassion, charity and the need to do good deeds while one lives to be judged favourably in death.

DEMENTLIEU
3rd Sect of Ezra - TN "Erudites" centered in Ste. Mere des Larmes in Port-a-Lucine. Largely unconcerned with gaining new followers, has a tolerant mindset to other faiths.
Van Richten Society - A loose alliance of correspondents who seek to continue Van Richten's legacy.
Les Ordures - A group of lower class men and woman seeking to strike out at the nobility through embarrassment and belittlement.
La Societe de Legerdemain - An organization of street performers who provide the means to study real magic.
Noble Brotherhood of Assassins - Organization of social intriguers that works to bring down the most corrupt nobles in Dementlieu.
L'Academie des Sciences - Dementlieu based cabal of mystics who seek to recover and study magical items.
The Brain - An underground crime and resistance network fighting against Dominic D'Honaire, led by Rudolph von Aubrecker, the Living Brain.
University of Dementlieu - The current prominent university in the Core.
Church of Hala - Maintains several hospices, well received by the lower class and treated with indifference by the nobility.
Echanson's Heresy - Cupbearers who believe Ezra was born as a mortal, scour the realms in search of her secret descendants.
Circle Sinister - Crime racket that's a major player in Port-a-Lucine underworld. Led by Black Pieter, often noted for his willingness to work with adventurers if it benefits him.

FALKOVNIA
The Talons - Fanatical "knighthood", the best soldiers in Falkovnia who are absolutely loyal to Drakov. Each member is altered via dire ritual including the consumption of a form altering potion and is practically a terminal psychotic.
Freemen of Falkovnia - The only rebel group of Falkovnians that's managed to survive for more than a week.
Ebon Fold - Secret society of assassins operating in Falkovnia at Azalin's behest. Membership formed from the reanimated corpses of impalement victims.
Church of Hala - Conforms to Falkovnian ideals of religion so left to its own devices, hospices seem to always meet with bad luck and hasty demises though.
Church of Ezra - Under heavy scrutiny, acolytes regularly tortured and killed for aiding abetting resistance movements.
Eternal Order - Appeals to veteran soldiers and seeks largely to appease Darkon's restless dead to prevent them from swarming the border.
Stagengrad Military Academy - Prominent Falkovnian military academy.

FORLORN
Forfarian Pantheon - Large resurgence of worship of the old (Celtic) gods in Forfarmax. Few actual priests.
The Morninglord - Introduced by travelling clerics from Barovia. Welcomed, though most of the druids follow the old gods.

G'HENNA
Cult of Zhakata - G'Hennan based faith centered around placating its beast god.

HAR AKIR
Green Hand - A secret cabal of Akari tomb defenders.

HAZLAN
Order of the Guardians - A monastic order of lorekeepers dedicated to finding cursed objects and keeping them out of the wrong hands.
Red Academy - Hazlik's college of witchcraft, an arcane focused school quickly rising in prominence.
Church of the Lawgiver - State religion of Hazlan and only officially sanctioned one allowed. Wide scale worship from Mulani and Rashemi alike.
Church of Hala - Operates in secret, worshiped by the Rashemi and well received by those who don't even pray to Hala.
Iron Inquisition - Lawgiver internal security and heretic hunters.

INVIDIA
Gundarkite Rebels - Organized resistance to outside rule of Gundarkite territory.
Church of Ezra - Most Invidians profess faith in one of the four sects, preference being personal taste and attitude.
Church of Hala - Secretly worshiped since being outlawed, members burnt or hung. Publically mistrusted due to its secrecy.

KARTAKASS
Brotherhood of Broken Blades - Vigilante witch-hunters dedicated to wiping out abusers of magic. Well-meaning but reportedly often vague in defining who is an "evil" magician.
Howling Clan - Wolf God heretics who embrace their savage humanity, led by Mother Fury
Ancestral Choir - Main theological belief system. Handful of priests who serve to continue the traditions and gaurd the souls of the dead joining the Choir.
Church of Ezra - Few converts, stratified social structure being a concept most Kartakans abhor.
Church of Hala - Unobtrusive hospices, seldom regarded or thought much of beyond being healers.

LAMORDIA
Van Richten Society - A loose alliance of correspondents who seek to continue Van Richten's legacy.
Syndicate of Enlightened Citizens - Lamordian conspiracy with designs against the supernatural.

MARKOVIA
Order of the Guardians - A monastic order of lorekeepers dedicated to finding cursed objects and keeping them out of the wrong hands.

MORDENT
2nd Sect of Ezra - LG "Pure Hearts" centered in the Chapel of the Pure Hearts. Large following due to its benevolent dogma though Home Faith is also present.
Lamplighters - School of policing that originated in Mordent, and has recently been exported to other domains. Known for rigorous honesty.
Van Richten Society - A loose alliance of correspondents who seek to continue Van Richten's legacy.
Order of the Guardians - A monastic order of lorekeepers dedicated to finding cursed objects and keeping them out of the wrong hands.
Church of Hala - Accepted though often regarded as playing with fire due to the nature of melding the arcane and divine, inviting the influence of the forces of darkness.

NIDALA
Knights of the Shadows - A venerable knighthood that struggles against tyranny in all of its guises. While not actually based in Nidala, it is the one place they make a pilgrimage to that's constant.
Church of Belenus - Puritanical version of the faith, actively castigates "sinners" and purges non-humans.

NOVA VAASA
Syekhmetskaya Circle - Nova Vaasan based criminal organization said to be controlled by the shadow genius Malken.
Church of the Lawgiver - Only religion in Nova Vaasa, actively imprisons "heretical" clerics of other faiths if caught.

RICHEMULOT
The Lock and Key - A Richemoluise cabal of masked Caliban watchmen, known for their strict code of honor and justice.
Van Richten Society - A loose alliance of correspondents who seek to continue Van Richten's legacy.
The Cult of Simon Audaire - A conspiracy of disaffected human Reniers plotting against their kin.
The House of a Hundred Moths - Richemuloise arcane university that maintains a vague cover as an astrological institute.
Church of Ezra - All four sects present, largely casual lipservice following among worshippers.
Church of Hala - Widespread presence among commoners, mistrusted by nobility.

SITHICUS
The Order of the Guardians - A monastic order of lorekeepers dedicated to finding cursed objects and keeping them out of the wrong hands.

SRI RAJI
University of Tvashtri - Only major school outside of the Core, known for religious and scientific study.

TEPEST
Order of the Guardians - A monastic order of lorekeepers dedicated to finding cursed objects and keeping them out of the wrong hands.
Tepestani Pantheon - Large devotion to various (Celtic) gods with Belenus as the chief one.
Tepestani Inquisition - Loose organization of priests in Tepest who have declared war against the night, also known to brutalize elven folk.
Church of Ezra - Marginal following, has often protected innocents against the Tepestani Inquisition.
Church of Hala - Largely devoted to rooting out the domain's hags and goblins. Executed by Inquisition as witches if found.
Church of the Lawgiver - Has a small presence but proven unpopular with the commoners for its superior attitudes.

VALACHAN
Cult of Yutow
Church of Ezra - Small presence in Helbenik. Faith's compassionate teachings appeals to some.
Church of Hala - Large, unobtrusive persence. Popular although careful it does not act in conflict with Yutow.

VREBREK
Cult of the Wolf God - Most common religion though no human settlements worship it. Worshipped solely by werewolves and placated out of fear. The enemy of all men.
Church of Ezra - Small presence, Home Faith the sect of choice among its worshippers.
Church of Hala - Highly regarded, witches honoured for fighting the werewolves. Unpopular with th elycans who actively hunt its clerics. Operates well hidden sacred groves.
Woodcutter's Axe - Organised human rebels fighting the oppression of the werewolves.

Adventure league has a mere six factions, out of hundred plus factions present in ravenloft itself they couldn't find a single digit number of them with a similar enough roles/values/etc & maybe include a renown conversion formula for those AL folks? They could even include a few pages about the lucky ravenloft factions of note & shed some light on the setting of ravenloft itself where CoS is set.

We're talking about a situation where there isn't a published setting, so complaints about settings carry virtually no weight either. Again, unless you are playing specifically within the confines of the Sword Coast of Faerun, the burden of world construction is wholly on the DM. There's no published worldbuilding material for 5E outside that one book.

If we get a Dragonlance Campaign Setting with magic trains or a Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting where halfling gods pull talking dinosaurs in rickshaws, then we can start having this discussion about changes to published settings. The Player's Handbook, DMG and Monster Manual are generic documents.

You don't seem to understand. The sword coast is a region within faerun. [I][U]Ravenloft is not part if faerun. In tweets & videos, Wotc has explicitly mentioned how eberron, darksun, & the like are part of the shared cosmology & that MToF applies to all settings in the shared multiverse. The fact that there is no 5e eberron campaign setting is irrelevant to the fact that WotC has said this bookdoes & will apply to eberron.

[Regitnui]

My main worry is by making a combined material plane where all the worlds exist, they might force each world to operate on other worlds' core assumptions; Eberron doesn't fit in Planescape, because its planar model is only vaguely similar to that of the Great Wheel. Athas has no gods and a vastly different magic system, so can't operate off FR's Weave and Mystara. Or we get a system where each other setting is treated as a "stop" for FR-based adventures, like Ravenloft and CoS (yes, I understand that's part of the Demiplane of Dread's gimmick, but hear me out). Like they make a Planeshift adventure that visits Sigil and returns to FR, or an Eberron adventure where all the FR factions suddenly have an interest in a world that's got more magic items than they do members. All I am is cautious. I don't know how they're going to handle other settings besides FR ("default") and Ravenloft (Can appear anywhere). Portals to Athas don't exactly open up in the Anauroch and disgorge defilers into the Sword Coast on a regular basis.

That doesn't mean I'm against crossover settings; I'd love to see an updated treatment of Spelljammer that plays up the madness that comes with shoving different cultures of the same race from different settings together, as well as a sort of "planar map" putting the different Crystal Spheres with a "travelling distance" from each other kinda playing off how different they are, perhaps even with a subtle nod towards the Plane Shift semi-official booklets by mentioning a "world assailed by planar aberrations" or a "dying world turned construct factory". I would love to see an "external" view of the different Material Planes; maybe Forgotten Realms' sphere looks patchwork or pitted with holes from the appearances of different cultures, while Athas' sphere is completely opaque and Eberron's has a dead gold dragon around a green couatl holding a fiend in its coils.

So I'm not optimistic. I'm cautious. Expect the worst, hope for the best.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I personally like the books, I just can see valid complaints on the dearth of supplemental material this edition from those for whom the fluff isn't meaningful. The app/website/whatever letting you purchase just the mechanical content should fill the gap, but the pricing betrays the extent to which the fluff material is seen as empty filler by the publisher, given that the crunch is a small portion of the page count in most of these books, but a much larger portion of the a la carte price.

I can see (and agree with to a large extent!) that perspective. I'm just not sure this is new. Lots of useful or important technical crunch has been buried in unrelated, irrelevant fluff for many editions now, and it's always been a pain in the butt justifying spending $40 on Oriental Adventures so you can point to a page in a book that says "you may add your Wisdom modifier to attack and damage with simple weapons and unarmed strikes".

And if spell lists are going to be kept somewhat limited, PrCs aren't going to exist, feats remain optional and limited in scope and magic items are going to be a sideline rather than a main part of character power, I'm not sure how much crunch there actually is to release. Certainly a series like the Complete books from 3.5 is unlikely, as those were entirely feats, classes, prestige classes, spells and items.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

You don't seem to understand. The sword coast is a region within faerun. [I][U]Ravenloft is not part if faerun. In tweets & videos, Wotc has explicitly mentioned how eberron, darksun, & the like are part of the shared cosmology & that MToF applies to all settings in the shared multiverse. The fact that there is no 5e eberron campaign setting is irrelevant to the fact that WotC has said this bookdoes & will apply to eberron.

I wanted one sentence! One!

Let's say you're going to play a game in Eberron. As part of setting up the game, you as the DM have to establish the parameters of the world of Eberron. You have to do this because WotC has not, as yet, done it for you with the release of a published ECS. What is stopping you from saying "Eberron's cosmology does not conform to the diagrams in MToF."?

I do not understand what point, if any, you are making by emphasizing that Ravenloft is not part of Faerun. Yeah. Duh. We all understand that. What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?

[strangebloke]

• As part of the campaign the players had gone back in time to before the giant empire rose & Ourelonastrix had just begun teaching the secrets of draconic magic to the giants. At this point in history, the giants are the only race other that dragons with anything approaching a culture. This is important.
• dm: "written on the door in draconic & something else you think is probably giant is blahblah," <-- Nobody in the group knew giant & what it said is irrelevant.
• The players had already met Ourelonastrix in the future/present day before getting flung back, but he seemed to just be an old human man of possibly loose wires laughing about how he gets to enjoy being on the giving end of timey wimey type spoilers (dr who & river song type crossing of timelines)
• playerA asked what type of written runes was used
• dm: I'm not sure what it says in the phb, but giants and dragons are the only two races out there with written languages at this time, so I'm going to say either gdraconic runes or it uses its own style of writing
• PlayerA: "ok good enough"
• PlayerB: "Actually it should be dwarven runes"
• GM: "maybe in faerun, but the dwarves don't exist yet & dont come along fleeing Risia from thousands of years so it needs to be its own runes or draconic ones because those are the only two races at this point"
• playerB: "but no the dwarves came along first & then the giants got theur writing because of $event"
• PlayerA: So dwarves don't exist here yet & it's either draconic or giant runes used in giant script? ok great!
• Player B: But that's only the case here in eberron because in most oth...
• GM: So the door opens and...

Ebberon being a published setting would not stop any of this. This player is simply an idiot who is trying to shoehorn FR somewhere it doesn't belong. Why is he even challenging the DM on the lore of all things? The DM could be running a game where everyone is born of primodial goo as far as the player knows.

Adventure league has a mere six factions, out of hundred plus factions present in ravenloft itself they couldn't find a single digit number of them with a similar enough roles/values/etc & maybe include a renown conversion formula for those AL folks? They could even include a few pages about the lucky ravenloft factions of note & shed some light on the setting of ravenloft itself where CoS is set.

The only thing in AL that is continuous is the character and their resources. So if a level 5 paladin finishes LMoP and goes onto CoS, there has to be a mechanism by which he's in Ravenloft, and a mechanism by which he returns. Otherwise, when he rejoins his old teammates from LMoP for the next campaign the other members will ask him "What have you been doing the last year? Where did you get that shiny sword" and he'll be like.... "duuur, I don't know."

Look at CoS as an "Introduction to Ravenloft." It's a gateway to the setting for newbies rather than a super long-and-in-depth Ravenloft campaign. Why does it fill you with rage that newbies who otherwise would never have heard of Ravenloft are now hungry for more? WotC doesn't publish long-and-in-depth campaigns where the kind of stuff you like to talk about would be relevant anyway.

*sigh*

Lore discussions are boring.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Lore discussions are boring.

I think they're interesting when they're about the lore and what does and doesn't work, and how to use it correctly. When they're just seething about the meta of the lore with no utilitarian component, they're about the most tedious things imaginable.

[Unoriginal]

Eberron doesn't fit in Planescape, because its planar model is only vaguely similar to that of the Great Wheel

See, that sentence encapsulates the whole issue.

3.X Eberron's plannar model was like this.

It does NOT mean that any of the other editions version of Eberron must be like that.

The writers of this edition's version of Eberron could write that Sigil is visible in Eberron's sky, and it would be true.

Because there is no sacro-saint core of any setting that cannot be modified.

Maybe the fans would hate it, or think it's bad writing, or anything, but it does NOT remove the right of the authors to do so.


Now, because the 5e writers are not belligerent ***holes, they have actually taken into account the tastes of Eberron's fans, and made very clear that:

a) Eberron, while still being in the Material Plane like all the other setting world, is in its own remote Crystal Sphere, and it's so difficult to reach even experienced multi-world travelers like Mordenkainen think it's a legend at best.

b)the Warforged are not released as a race yet because they come from Eberron, and they don't want to tons of characters coming from Eberron showing up all over the cosmos

c) Each Crystal Sphere has different rules on magic and on which gods and planes interact with it, which is why X planes are around Eberron and influence it while Y planes are connected to Faerun in a different way.

[strangebloke]

I think they're interesting when they're about the lore and what does and doesn't work, and how to use it correctly. When they're just seething about the meta of the lore with no utilitarian component, they're about the most tedious things imaginable.

Right, sorry.

Meta-lore discussions are boring.

Particularly seeing as I have not, and never will use a published setting. I know that it's an argument that pulls ire here, but I just look at people like Tetra and I'm like...

I haven't had the setting I wanted published in, well, ever. I've written hundreds of pages of setting information! I've hand-drawn ultra-detailed maps and made dozens of spreadsheets to track the evolving relationships between the powerful factions of the game. I've hacked together houserules to reflect in-setting realities that dnd can't model effectively...

And you're pissed because some random MM page contains a footnote about how 'x' in 'y' setting function without mentioning setting 'z'?

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Right, sorry.

Meta-lore discussions are boring.

Particularly seeing as I have not, and never will use a published setting. I know that it's an argument that pulls ire here, but I just look at people like Tetra and I'm like...

I haven't had the setting I wanted published in, well, ever. I've written hundreds of pages of setting information! I've hand-drawn ultra-detailed maps and made dozens of spreadsheets to track the evolving relationships between the powerful factions of the game. I've hacked together houserules to reflect in-setting realities that dnd can't model effectively...

And you're pissed because some random MM page contains a footnote about how 'x' in 'y' setting function without mentioning setting 'z'?

Exactly. Exactly. And you know what's extra infuriating? That same book contains a note that says you can change anything you want at any time you want for any reason to fit the story you're trying to tell. I mean, can you imagine such an insult?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Right, sorry.

Meta-lore discussions are boring.

Particularly seeing as I have not, and never will use a published setting. I know that it's an argument that pulls ire here, but I just look at people like Tetra and I'm like...

I haven't had the setting I wanted published in, well, ever. I've written hundreds of pages of setting information! I've hand-drawn ultra-detailed maps and made dozens of spreadsheets to track the evolving relationships between the powerful factions of the game. I've hacked together houserules to reflect in-setting realities that dnd can't model effectively...

And you're pissed because some random MM page contains a footnote about how 'x' in 'y' setting function without mentioning setting 'z'?

Amen. I'm busy using my (horrific) digital art skills to make a map of a city and also contemplating trying to draw clothing styles to better flesh out cultures for the NPCs I'm making for my world.

I can skim over "Malbulugugugugugugg made goblins baaaaad because baaaad"--what I want is either pieces I can use (stats/mechanics) or ideas I can transplant (after suitable modification).

I bet that if you take any two DMs who run in the same published setting and compare the setting details, they'll differ in significant ways. And that's with published works.

[Tetrasodium]

Ebberon being a published setting would not stop any of this. This player is simply an idiot who is trying to shoehorn FR somewhere it doesn't belong. Why is he even challenging the DM on the lore of all things? The DM could be running a game where everyone is born of primodial goo as far as the player knows.

The only thing in AL that is continuous is the character and their resources. So if a level 5 paladin finishes LMoP and goes onto CoS, there has to be a mechanism by which he's in Ravenloft, and a mechanism by which he returns. Otherwise, when he rejoins his old teammates from LMoP for the next campaign the other members will ask him "What have you been doing the last year? Where did you get that shiny sword" and he'll be like.... "duuur, I don't know."

Look at CoS as an "Introduction to Ravenloft." It's a gateway to the setting for newbies rather than a super long-and-in-depth Ravenloft campaign. Why does it fill you with rage that newbies who otherwise would never have heard of Ravenloft are now hungry for more? WotC doesn't publish long-and-in-depth campaigns where the kind of stuff you like to talk about would be relevant anyway.

*sigh*

Lore discussions are boring.

Yes, player B was being an ass, but he has piles of 5e books saying that he;s still probably correct. As to a level 5 paladin going to ravenloft & coming back to rejoin his friends in lmop, not every setting needs to or should have travel between them. I'm fine with random wackjobs being snatched out of faerun & getting depostited into cyre after 994YK & struggling their way out of the bizarre arcanopocalyptic wasteland known as the mournland, it;s a friendly place where rain disolves flesh, entire villages are encased in glass, living spells roam the land, healing does not work, so on & so forth... but there is no mechanism to get back. I'm not fine with a mass influx if random nuts from faerun popping up in sharn & contracting with house orien to get back unless wotc is also fine with blighting faerun with the conquering, parceling up, & colonization of their precious unmarred drizztland in ways that make the european colonial empires look like rank amateurs dabbling in a sandbox.

c) Each Crystal Sphere has different rules on magic and on which gods and planes interact with it, which is why X planes are around Eberron and influence it while Y planes are connected to Faerun in a different way.

This is correct, but if you take plot/group/whatever from one sphere into another sphere were those baselines are different enough to be nearly incompatible, you need to change the plot/group/whatever that you want in order to fit the baselines of the new sphere so the thing you are moving over can fit.

Right, sorry.

Meta-lore discussions are boring.

Particularly seeing as I have not, and never will use a published setting. I know that it's an argument that pulls ire here, but I just look at people like Tetra and I'm like...

I haven't had the setting I wanted published in, well, ever. I've written hundreds of pages of setting information! I've hand-drawn ultra-detailed maps and made dozens of spreadsheets to track the evolving relationships between the powerful factions of the game. I've hacked together houserules to reflect in-setting realities that dnd can't model effectively...

And you're pissed because some random MM page contains a footnote about how 'x' in 'y' setting function without mentioning setting 'z'?

Now imagine if in 4e they published that setting, did a terrible job changing it to fit things from some other setting, & were talking about merging your preferred setting with bits of stuff from the source of the previous clusterbleep.

I wanted one sentence! One!

Let's say you're going to play a game in Eberron. As part of setting up the game, you as the DM have to establish the parameters of the world of Eberron. You have to do this because WotC has not, as yet, done it for you with the release of a published ECS. What is stopping you from saying "Eberron's cosmology does not conform to the diagrams in MToF."?

I do not understand what point, if any, you are making by emphasizing that Ravenloft is not part of Faerun. Yeah. Duh. We all understand that. What's that got to do with the price of tea in China?

Yes it's up to the dm to establish the parameters of the world, however when wotc releases stuff aimed at players saying that those parameters are in direct conflict with those parameters in order to fit a boatload of baggage from a different setting, it is needlessly complicated.

As to your question about MtoF, last I checked we are a few weeks from having access to the book. Odds are good that There will be things from eberron in conflict from it, but if mtof comes out saying stuff like this applies to all $whatever & that $whatever is in contradiction with the setting, carries a lot of baggage of its own, and many things covered in mtof it becomes a matter of "mtof content is banned because it's all wrong & I need to rewrite anything you want out of it" When that happens too often.....

[strangebloke]

Now imagine if in 4e they published that setting, did a terrible job changing it to fit things from some other setting, & were talking about merging your preferred setting with bits of stuff from the source of the previous clusterbleep.

I'd be frocking overjoyed that people were actually playing on the continent of Albior, fighting to unify the Rhudlands and free them from Draconic tyrrany.

Even if it wasn't the same, I'd be literally giddy that my baby had taken wings.

[JoeJ]

The writers of this edition's version of Eberron could write that Sigil is visible in Eberron's sky, and it would be true.

It would be true for the AL at least. I'm still free to say, "yes, I understand that the devs have made their decision, but it's a stupid-*** decision, so I've elected to ignore it."

There wouldn't be a lot of point in getting upset about it, though.

[War_lord]

It would be true for the AL at least. I'm still free to say, "yes, I understand that the devs have made their decision, but it's a stupid-*** decision, so I've elected to ignore it."

There wouldn't be a lot of point in getting upset about it, though.

When you realize Tetra's argument is basically "I am offended that WoTC even has settings that aren't Eberron" you realize the futility of trying to have an adult conversation over it.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

It would be true for the AL at least. I'm still free to say, "yes, I understand that the devs have made their decision, but it's a stupid-*** decision, so I've elected to ignore it."

That's it precisely. AL is a different beast. It's a game that runs by what are essentially convention rules and should be considered separately from the rest of 5E. You make your world work the way you want it to.

Yes it's up to the dm to establish the parameters of the world, however when wotc releases stuff aimed at players saying that those parameters are in direct conflict with those parameters in order to fit a boatload of baggage from a different setting, it is needlessly complicated.

As to your question about MtoF, last I checked we are a few weeks from having access to the book. Odds are good that There will be things from eberron in conflict from it, but if mtof comes out saying stuff like this applies to all $whatever & that $whatever is in contradiction with the setting, carries a lot of baggage of its own, and many things covered in mtof it becomes a matter of "mtof content is banned because it's all wrong & I need to rewrite anything you want out of it" When that happens too often.....

Contradictions between what the authors and publishers say and what DMs and players say have always existed. I played in high school in a Forgotten Realms game with the orcs and gnomes removed because they were dumb fantasy monsters. It wasn't a big deal.

When MToF releases, any information it has that relates to the structure of the cosmos is use-as-you-wish. It's up to the DM to establish the parameters of the world, the end. There's not really a however. The only reason a table would have MToF banned is if it includes player content that the DM doesn't want to see that the table. If it doesn't have player content, then banned or not what's written in it is only valid if the DM makes that affirmative choice. I don't consider this needlessly complicated. I don't consider it complicated at all. In non-AL play, sole responsibility for the setting rests with the DM, and that guy or gal has absolute, l'état c'est moi power, no matter what's written in that book or any book.

[EvilAnagram]

Spoiler: As far off the rails as this thread has gone, it's really not about The Hobbit

Show

And the Hobbit movies were bad adaptations, but calling them invalid is just like... what? What do you think calling them invalid means to the people you're talking to? Do you think that conveys more information than just calling them bad adaptations?

I'm saying that at a certain point they stopped trying to be adaptations of The Hobbit in anything but name. They wanted to be something else, and they pursued it with the basic plot points of the book weighing them down. It almost makes no sense to treat it as an adaptation because they weren't trying to adapt it. That's why I call it invalid as an adaptation: it stopped trying to adapt.

I respect you, EA, but it really seems to me that this whole argument could have been avoided.

Fair points, all around.

[Tetrasodium]

We're talking about a situation where there isn't a published setting, so complaints about settings carry virtually no weight either. Again, unless you are playing specifically within the confines of the Sword Coast of Faerun, the burden of world construction is wholly on the DM. There's no published worldbuilding material for 5E outside that one book.

If we get a Dragonlance Campaign Setting with magic trains or a Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting where halfling gods pull talking dinosaurs in rickshaws, then we can start having this discussion about changes to published settings. The Player's Handbook, DMG and Monster Manual are generic documents.

if you are a new person to d&d entirely, this is obe of the first books that you can just hand this to them & be like "this is the d&d multiverse"
Mike Mearls: "Yea & that's one of the things that we wanted to do was create something where a new player or dungeon master could read the chapter say on dwarves if you're playing a dwarf & reallyunderstand what it means to be a dwarf in dungeons & dragons.
Now the backgrouund definitions we give don't determine all dwarves, we know there are always exceptions. But we wanted to give a good starting point to really let you get inside the psychology of dwarves. How do dwarves think? How do they see the world. Applying that to elvesm halflings, gnomes, the gith, demons & devils too the bloodwar gets similar treatment."

Those races are often wildly different in different settings. In forgotten realms & greyhawk.. halflings are basically things that resemble but are legally distinct from the hobbits... in darksun, they are blood drinking savage cannibalistic things that eat people they catch. In eberron, they are somewhat in between with some differences plus dinosaurs. There is no mindset that neatly bridges that galaxy spanning spectrum & any attempt to do so can very easily cause severe problems by telling players that this is how characters of $yourCaractersRace think, see the world, etc. The same can hold true with nearly any race if you start looking cross settings.

Now it is entirely possible that WotC might have taken into account some of the complaints & concerns over this kind of thing since 4e eberron bleeped that pooch & the video I started this thread with gives some hope that they might be using lube & doing pretty reasonably, but in the other videos Wotc has said a lot of deeply troubling things like echoes of lolth in the blood of drow in settings where drow have nothing to do with lolth & lolth is something different entirely.

fans of salvatore style drow from forgotten realms would be in the parking lot outside wotc with torches if mtof says something to the extent of "Lolth is really a demon overlord rather than a deity, in faerrun she is a giant who learned draconic magic from the giants of xen'driik & used that magic to mix mud into the blood of captured eldar but most drow worship vulkooor the scorpion, elemental fire, pr shadow & darkness" don't act like people being concerned about that sort of treatment after getting it once already are being unreasonable & overreacting.