Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

[Traab]

Previous thread found here

I figured I would post this since we already went past page 50 to 51 and noone bit the bullet.

[Rater202]

Tracking post.

And yeah, I'm just gonna repeat my last post from the previous thread: If the Sora preview video means that Sora only gets his Kindgom Hearts 1 stuff, and Sora loses to Pitt becuase he's limited to his KH1 moves, that wil be hard proof that Death Battles fudges data in favor of whoever it is they want to win.

[Traab]

Tracking post.

And yeah, I'm just gonna repeat my last post from the previous thread: If the Sora preview video means that Sora only gets his Kindgom Hearts 1 stuff, and Sora loses to Pitt becuase he's limited to his KH1 moves, that wil be hard proof that Death Battles fudges data in favor of whoever it is they want to win.

Doubly so if after the next game comes out they have a rematch where he gets all his stuff and roflstomps pitt.

[Lemmy]

Sora x Pit doesn't feel like the kind of match where they'd be biased... But it does feel like the kind of match where they would get a bunch of facts or statistics completely wrong.

That said, if they are biased, I expect them to be biased in favor of Pit.

[Devonix]

Tracking post.

And yeah, I'm just gonna repeat my last post from the previous thread: If the Sora preview video means that Sora only gets his Kindgom Hearts 1 stuff, and Sora loses to Pitt becuase he's limited to his KH1 moves, that wil be hard proof that Death Battles fudges data in favor of whoever it is they want to win.

I find it incredibly unlikely that he only gets Kingdom Hearts 1 stuff. Remember. What they show in previews, and what they show in the animation for a character have no actual bearing on what feats or evidence is taken into account for a matchup.

[Rater202]

I find it incredibly unlikely that he only gets Kingdom Hearts 1 stuff. Remember. What they show in previews, and what they show in the animation for a character have no actual bearing on what feats or evidence is taken into account for a matchup.

Yeah, but if they never mention nor depict him using an ability from another game, it's safe to assume that it wasn't in their calculations.

And if he loses explicitly because he "lacked" an ability that he demonstrated in a game other than the first game(If only Sora had some way to draw pit to him and hold him in place, he might have won--Magnet in 2)

The fact that there isn't a single clip of Sora from any game but the first one is pretty damn concerning.

[Devonix]

Yeah, but if they never mention nor depict him using an ability from another game, it's safe to assume that it wasn't in their calculations.

And if he loses explicitly because he "lacked" an ability that he demonstrated in a game other than the first game(If only Sora had some way to draw pit to him and hold him in place, he might have won--Magnet in 2)

The fact that there isn't a single clip of Sora from any game but the first one is pretty damn concerning.

If it doesn't show up in the side window blurb that's the only time I actually have an issue.

[Delicious Taffy]

By KHII, Sora is incredibly strong. I'm currently replaying it, and there are multiple instances of him slapping around house-sized enemies. In the Pride Lands, he's transformed into a lion cub, and he still manages to out-muscle a creature with paws the size of a blue whale. Sure, Keyblade magic probably helps, but that's just a testament to how much punch that thing packs.

[McNum]

Yeah, but if they never mention nor depict him using an ability from another game, it's safe to assume that it wasn't in their calculations.

And if he loses explicitly because he "lacked" an ability that he demonstrated in a game other than the first game(If only Sora had some way to draw pit to him and hold him in place, he might have won--Magnet in 2)

The fact that there isn't a single clip of Sora from any game but the first one is pretty damn concerning.

We usually only get half of the character introductions in the previews, so who know if they have KH2 stuff in the other half. Would make sense if they do.

I still think it'll come down to Sora against Pit in the Great Sacred Treasure. And I honestly don't know if the Keyblade will be as powerful as usual against someone who is explicitly on the side of Light. If they get in a Light-off, Pit has a pretty big claim to be the Lighter one being the personal assistant, I mean angel of the Goddess of Light herself. Sora has traces of Darkness, Pit does not.

[Rater202]

We usually only get half of the character introductions in the previews, so who know if they have KH2 stuff in the other half. Would make sense if they do.

I still think it'll come down to Sora against Pit in the Great Sacred Treasure. And I honestly don't know if the Keyblade will be as powerful as usual against someone who is explicitly on the side of Light. If they get in a Light-off, Pit has a pretty big claim to be the Lighter one being the personal assistant, I mean angel of the Goddess of Light herself. Sora has traces of Darkness, Pit does not.

Uh. Sora's Keyblade is of the Realm of Light, but it's not exclusivly light--In fcact, the Realm of Light includes every Element but Darkness.

Like, the Keyblade isn't an anti-darkness weapon but rather a weapon meant to preserve balance(The Heartless don't naturally exist in the Realm of Light and until Xehanort did his experiments and screwed up everything forever, rarely managed to emigrate there. The Keyblades aren't for the Heartless, they just work on the Heartless)

If nothing else, Pitt would just be resistant/immune to pure Light element spells, and that's a very, very small part of Sora's magical arsenal.

[Rynjin]

So small, in fact...I don't think Sora actually has any light magic spells. Mickey has Pearl, and Minnie can SMITE THE NONBELIEVERS WITH HOOOOLY LIIIGHT but Sora has no equivalent I know of.

[Rater202]

So small, in fact...I don't think Sora actually has any light magic spells. Mickey has Pearl, and Minnie can SMITE THE NONBELIEVERS WITH HOOOOLY LIIIGHT but Sora has no equivalent I know of.

He has a couple of light spells in Dream Drop Distance, though the most prominent one is two hits, one of light and one of dark.

IRC, he's also using light during his Limit with Riku in II(Riku provides the darkness.)

Though actually, there's even been some speculation that Sora might actually end up going Pure Darkness in III: A running theme from two and Dream Drop is that the Darkness in Sora's heart is growing and the last couple of Bosses in Riku's path in DDD are in fact manifestations of Sora's Darkness. Riku's entire character arc as well as Terra's in BBS indicate that, if you have a lot of Darknesss, you need to embrace and master it or it will consume you.

Couple that with the fact that Kingdom HEarts has a big focu on Trinities and the dEstiny Islands Trio has one person who is pure light(Kairi) and one who uses Light and Darkness equally(Riku,) a pure darkness user would be needed to balance the Trinity.

And a trailer for KHIII has Xemnas state that sora needs to Embrace the Darkness to bring back Roxas and while Xemnas could be lying about that, he doesn't nesesarily have a reason to becuase Sora bringing back Roxas helps the 'Nort's plans regardless(Either a potential 13th Vessel or a potential guardian of Light.)

[Rynjin]

Alas, I have not played Dream Drop yet, I want to wait until I have a PS4 because the 3DS stick is so fragile. That does sound interesting though, and kinda lines up with Anti-Form.

[McNum]

Isn't Riku all Darkness now? That was the Riku side of Chain of Memories, if I remember right. His struggle with being both dark and good. Until in KH2 where it finally clicks for him that Light isn't Good and Dark isn't Evil. You can be both Dark and Good. Xehanort is especially frustrated with Riku since he'd make a fantastic host to possess... if Riku hadn't already mastered his own darkness and is practically impossible to influence at this point.

I'd see Sora as becoming the half and half in HK3. Which would be a great character arc for him. Learning to trust himself, all of himself, light and dark. Because he really needs to work on the whole defending against dark possession thing after DDD.

[Rater202]

Isn't Riku all Darkness now? That was the Riku side of Chain of Memories, if I remember right. His struggle with being both dark and good. Until in KH2 where it finally clicks for him that Light isn't Good and Dark isn't Evil. You can be both Dark and Good. Xehanort is especially frustrated with Riku since he'd make a fantastic host to possess... if Riku hadn't already mastered his own darkness and is practically impossible to influence at this point.

I'd see Sora as becoming the half and half in HK3. Which would be a great character arc for him. Learning to trust himself, all of himself, light and dark. Because he really needs to work on the whole defending against dark possession thing after DDD.

By the end of Dream Drop, Riku uses Darkness and light equally.

[Dragonus45]

Tracking post.

And yeah, I'm just gonna repeat my last post from the previous thread: If the Sora preview video means that Sora only gets his Kindgom Hearts 1 stuff, and Sora loses to Pitt becuase he's limited to his KH1 moves, that wil be hard proof that Death Battles fudges data in favor of whoever it is they want to win.

You mean the literal exact thing they did with Gaara when they limited him entirely to pre time skip abilities and ignored all of his non sand jutsu. Already confirmed bro.

[Rater202]

You mean the literal exact thing they did with Gaara when they limited him entirely to pre time skip abilities and ignored all of his non sand jutsu. Already confirmed bro.

Some people will refuse to believe something unless there are at least 2 data points.

[Forum Explorer]

You mean the literal exact thing they did with Gaara when they limited him entirely to pre time skip abilities and ignored all of his non sand jutsu. Already confirmed bro.

They did bring up the gold sand stuff, and I think measured the durability of his shield from the explosion. I don't remember anything about non-sand jutsu (for that matter, I don't remember Gaara using non-sand jutsu)

[Rater202]

They did bring up the gold sand stuff, and I think measured the durability of his shield from the explosion. I don't remember anything about non-sand jutsu (for that matter, I don't remember Gaara using non-sand jutsu)

He has a Wind Chakra nature. He demonstrates wind style techniques a couple of times.

[Lemmy]

He has a Wind Chakra nature. He demonstrates wind style techniques a couple of times.

Are't like... All his sand techniques technically wind jutsu?

[Rater202]

Are't like... All his sand techniques technically wind jutsu?

Technically, they're not Justu at all.

As Shukaku's Jinchuriki, he's inherited Shukaku's Chakra Natures(Wind and Magnet) as well as Shukaku's unique abillities(psychokinetic manipulation of sand.)

Calling his Desert Coffin and Desert Burial techniques, let alone Jutsu as the term is used in the Ninjutsu/Genjutsu context is an embellishment, or else a technicallity at best. With the exception of his most advancec constructs(Sand clones, for example,) he's just thinking and the sand goes.

It's even less technique in Gaara's case because his personal supply of sand is infused with his own Chakra, the blood of his enemeis, and his mother's own soul acting in conjuction with Shukaku to protect him. Gaara rarely has to put that much actual thought or effort into manipulating the sand.

(In the series proper, Gaara only uses Magnet Release in conjunction with his sand manipulation to form seals, as cursed seals are the aplication of it that Shukaku uses)

[Mato]

Some people will refuse to believe something unless there are at least 2 data points.

Goku vs Superman is always going to be a good one. They scripted quite a bit of bias in there that was recorded & animated. Like they deliberately use All-Star Superman's clips & scenes as factual data while arguing his power is infinite because he can just absorb more up sunlight. They also claimed Goku's maximum ki output is, based on Newton's third law, equal to the android bomb figure they made up since his ki & defense are the same thing but at 26:35 in the video they argue that Goku if blew up the sun he'd die so they just stop discussing it. But overlooking their contradictory arguments, what pushes the boundary is some of the other quarks in the video. Like they have a scene of a side-by-side comparison of strength, speed, and durability that only remains up on screen for about three seconds while Boomstick yells "holy **** not even close". But if you paused the video to read it they expressly noted Goku's value doesn't include his ki. "Boomstick" claims the argument is finally over after their battle and you should know what kind of response that draws. I say this is intentional, some people disagree (see last thread), because as you put it they need several examples.

But to move beyond that video, or even the rematch, Death Battle released a collaboration video with TeamFourStar under the guise that Takahata101 was going to have a counter argument to their video. But that video is just claims DB was wrong because one of them has a stupid face & car. And upon announcing Goku would win the room explodes into a storm of activity that includes people yelling unintelligible nonsense into a megaphone, eating paper, doing who knows what to a dolphin, as they start beating each other with bats and shooting each other. The camera then zooms in on Ben's smiling face. It doesn't take a genius to pick up on the subtext, they mocked the fanbase's reaction and intelligence and you arguing their Goku vs Supes video was all part of Ben's plan. And it worked, for obvious reasons. So to me it's undeniable that they will employ flawed arguments and victors for views, and arguing about they do not, as DB already pointed out, just helps spread awareness anyway. Like a good trolling, participation is all they need.

They did bring up the gold sand stuff, and I think measured the durability of his shield from the explosion. I don't remember anything about non-sand jutsu (for that matter, I don't remember Gaara using non-sand jutsu)

Gaara can use wind, earth, and lightning which is additionally confirmed in the fourth data book. And in the novel illustrated by Masashi Kishimoto he can also use magnet release. He also appears to have some skill in yin release since he is able to use Ninjutsu based sleeping techniques. It is verbally acknowledged his taijutsu is also on par with Naruto's he just doesn't really use it and even while carrying his sand he can utilize the body flicker technique, which is a burst high speed movement like a flash step. He is also a formally trained ninja so he more then likely also mastered the more basic techniques, like substitutions which he has used before too.

[Rater202]

You wanna know the ironic thing? With Ultra Instinct Goku now has a stronger claim to being "infinite" than Superman's "lift a book of allgedly infinite pages."

Goku is explicitly stated by Whis, an expert of UI, to have achieved the form by surviving in a situation where it was literally impossible for him to survive and thus shattered every last one of the limits on his power.

Limitless power=Infinite Power

Even before he mastered the form it is both stated and demonstrated that Goku's power and skill rapidly scale upwards while in that form, and Jiren, who is basically "High-End Superman" in the "Practically Invinicble Superhero" department and explicitly the strongest pure mortal in the Multiverse, is really no match for Mastered UI Goku even after he pushes past his own limitations.

There, Superman V Goku has been discussed, this is officially a Death Battles thread.

[Dragonexx]

You mean the literal exact thing they did with Gaara when they limited him entirely to pre time skip abilities and ignored all of his non sand jutsu. Already confirmed bro.

Truth be told, that's not inherently a bad thing to do, especially for large, complex or ongoing series, or series with multiple iterations. It's just, if that's what they're doing, they should be upfront about it. I've watched some other versus series that do this, and they specifically list the materials they're including.

For example, this video, around the 2:20 mark.

[Forum Explorer]

He has a Wind Chakra nature. He demonstrates wind style techniques a couple of times.

I believe you, I just can't remember when he actually does so.

[Anteros]

You wanna know the ironic thing? With Ultra Instinct Goku now has a stronger claim to being "infinite" than Superman's "lift a book of allgedly infinite pages."

Goku is explicitly stated by Whis, an expert of UI, to have achieved the form by surviving in a situation where it was literally impossible for him to survive and thus shattered every last one of the limits on his power.

Limitless power=Infinite Power

Even before he mastered the form it is both stated and demonstrated that Goku's power and skill rapidly scale upwards while in that form, and Jiren, who is basically "High-End Superman" in the "Practically Invinicble Superhero" department and explicitly the strongest pure mortal in the Multiverse, is really no match for Mastered UI Goku even after he pushes past his own limitations.

There, Superman V Goku has been discussed, this is officially a Death Battles thread.

It's really strange to me how we're almost always on the same side of these debates and yet I don't think I've ever agreed with any of your arguments.

[Rater202]

It's really strange to me how we're almost always on the same side of these debates and yet I don't think I've ever agreed with any of your arguments.

Is it any sillier an argument than "Superman lifted a magical book that he and he alone said had infinity pages, therefore, he can lift infinity even though he's occasionally shown struggling or needing help to lift things with finite weight?"

I'm not saying that Goku's power is infinite, I'm just saying that if we're making up facts it's significantly less of a leap for Goku now.

[Durkoala]

Is it any sillier an argument than "Superman lifted a magical book that he and he alone said had infinity pages, therefore, he can lift infinity even though he's occasionally shown struggling or needing help to lift things with finite weight?"

I'm not saying that Goku's power is infinite, I'm just saying that if we're making up facts it's significantly less of a leap for Goku now.

Yes, because the argument wasn't "Superman has inifinite power", it was that both Goku and Superman have immeasurable strength, so a winner can't be picked by going through the numbers. Superman scraped a victory by a tongue-in-cheek judgement that his character concept and plots often revolve around him being the strongest person while Goku's are about him not (yet) being the strongest person in the universe.

[Lemmy]

Yes, because the argument wasn't "Superman has inifinite power", it was that both Goku and Superman have immeasurable strength, so a winner can't be picked by going through the numbers. Superman scraped a victory by a tongue-in-cheek judgement that his character concept and plots often revolve around him being the strongest person while Goku's are about him not (yet) being the strongest person in the universe.

Hah! If somewhere in DBZ it was explicitly stated that Goku has infinity whatever, I bet DB would find a way to cherry-pick and twist some random one-shot feat from Superman and then go "Nu-uh! Superman has infinity +1 strength!". That's just how obviously biased they were in that match.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Page 1 of the new thread, and it's already back to GvS. Classic.