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  1. - Top - End - #961
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    No I don’t read marvel anymore because of things like Carol Danvers the though crime enforcing fascist or Captain Hydra the literal worst decision made in comic books in the last decade.
    Secret Empire is still one of my favorite Captain America stories in decades. How can you not love a story exploring the idea of what would happen if because you trust someone, a person or a government to have your best interests at heart, that you sacrifice your autonomy to them out of comfort.

    It delt with what the fallout of the most trusted man in Marvel being evil would do to people, how they'd come together or get torn apart.

    And then we have Cap coming back and kicking the crap out of the imposter with Thor's hammer. It was wonderful.

  2. - Top - End - #962
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    Secret Empire is still one of my favorite Captain America stories in decades. How can you not love a story exploring the idea of what would happen if because you trust someone, a person or a government to have your best interests at heart, that you sacrifice your autonomy to them out of comfort.

    It delt with what the fallout of the most trusted man in Marvel being evil would do to people, how they'd come together or get torn apart.

    And then we have Cap coming back and kicking the crap out of the imposter with Thor's hammer. It was wonderful.
    And it led into a Captain America ongoing that I've heard nothing but good things about.

    There were problems with Stevil. More the execution, and Kobik refusing to resurrect the people who got killed because she did a dumb was... Just, really bad, But Captain Hydra's machinations made Civil War II somewhat less stupid than the original and Secret Empire basically had all the heroes admit that all the edgy bullcrap and Hero vs Hero stuff of the past two decades was really freaking stupid.

    Follow that up with Cap's imposter realizing that no, he wasn't worthy of Mjolnir after all, the Hero's deliberately holding back and letting Steve be the one to beat up his doppelganger so that the whole world could see that he was an imposter, Steve thanking Stevil for shaking up people's faith in him because he doesn't want people following him blindly... While beating the crap out of him...

    It's like Superior Spider-Man. It's stupid, but in hindsight, it makes for a good story if you can look past the flaws.
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  3. - Top - End - #963
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Eh, Heroes have become villains and vice versa on and off again since forever, I didn't see Hydra Cap being any different in concept than the Hydra Cap from that What If? alternate universe. Though obviously the way it was communicated, particularly to the vapid Twitter-sphere had people believing this was some kind of deep retcon where every Cap story ever was him as a Hydra double agent and secret Nazi sympathizer.

    Most of my issues were the overt political statement at the time - of which I was legitimately fatigued - though I don't really read Cap even though I've read trades of better Cap runs which I've enjoyed.

    Though, I've stopped reading comics altogether for budgetary reasons and for the fact that the guy I was mooching off for his digital comics left me in the lurch to go off with Medicines sans Frontiers, the selfish bastard.

  4. - Top - End - #964
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    Carnage is basically a Slasher Movie Villain.

    You can't kill Jason, you can only hit him till he stops getting back up.

    Michael Myers will always be back next Halloween.

    The Creeper's eaten far too many hearts for his to ever stop.

    Etcetera, etcetera.

    Carnage is cut from the same mold. You need a lot to put him down. Often a lot more than you think you'll need. And there will be blood. And he'll be harder to put down the next time.
    Eh, I dunno. Pretty sure Carnage loses hard to Doomsday.

  5. - Top - End - #965
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    Eh, I dunno. Pretty sure Carnage loses hard to Doomsday.
    I mean... Doomsday has repeatedly out-fought Superman, to the point where I feel like he's "definitely stronger but sometimes the writer needs him to lose" strong. Doomsday has that thing where he just always gets stronger. Most people are gonna lose to him.

  6. - Top - End - #966
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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    Eh, I dunno. Pretty sure Carnage loses hard to Doomsday.
    And barring a JLA/Avengers situation, Carnage is never gonna fight Doomsday so it's a moot point.
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    Meteor
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    Way down the air
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    Where my other
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  7. - Top - End - #967
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    And barring a JLA/Avengers situation, Carnage is never gonna fight Doomsday so it's a moot point.
    It's just a matter of time before Disney buys DC at this point......dun dun dun..

  8. - Top - End - #968
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    actually, never mind.

    Marvel confirmed today that the Carnage story they teased in Web of Venom is going to be a Major Event where Carnage Fights everybody, which was implied but not confirmed before.

    It's been stated that Carnage is stronger than he's ever been and considering that his goal is to collect Symbiote Codex's and eat them to gain the powers of other symbiotes and their hosts in order to become strong enough to go on an intergalactic murder spree, it's likely that he'
    ll be stronger by the end of the story that he was at the start because there's gonna be some d-lister casualties or something.

    Which means that Carnage is getting a story very similar to what Doomsday's most well-known stores are--Major crossover events against multiple high-level heroes--which combined with the "monster than can only be temporarily stopped, not killed and will get stronger by next time" thing means that they're thematically similar enough that I could see DB deciding to do Doomsday v Carnage.

    I mean, they'd give Doomsday the win even if Carnage did pull a feat out of his ass that should have let him one, but it's plausible that it could be a matchup now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zimmerwald1915 View Post
    Meteor
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    Way down the air
    To the floor
    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

  9. - Top - End - #969
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    actually, never mind.

    Marvel confirmed today that the Carnage story they teased in Web of Venom is going to be a Major Event where Carnage Fights everybody, which was implied but not confirmed before.

    It's been stated that Carnage is stronger than he's ever been and considering that his goal is to collect Symbiote Codex's and eat them to gain the powers of other symbiotes and their hosts in order to become strong enough to go on an intergalactic murder spree, it's likely that he'
    ll be stronger by the end of the story that he was at the start because there's gonna be some d-lister casualties or something.

    Which means that Carnage is getting a story very similar to what Doomsday's most well-known stores are--Major crossover events against multiple high-level heroes--which combined with the "monster than can only be temporarily stopped, not killed and will get stronger by next time" thing means that they're thematically similar enough that I could see DB deciding to do Doomsday v Carnage.

    I mean, they'd give Doomsday the win even if Carnage did pull a feat out of his ass that should have let him one, but it's plausible that it could be a matchup now.
    My problem with this storyline, and with Marvel in general, is the lack of resolution. I like my stories to end, not to keep going in some weird constant cycle.
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  10. - Top - End - #970
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post

    I mean, they'd give Doomsday the win even if Carnage did pull a feat out of his ass that should have let him one, but it's plausible that it could be a matchup now.
    There's still the overall power level of the Marvel vs. DC universes to account for in that, too. Kinda depends on whether it's like, Avengers-level people fighting Carnage... She-Hulk's strong as heck, so is Dr. Strange but I'm not sure they really stack up to the best of the Justice League-ers, and as you move downwards in their power rankings on their own team I think the match-up favours DC even more.

    BUT then if they go and make it a cosmic-level event and bring in the more powerful "space characters" we're talking.

    Back to the Captain Marvel vs. Captain Marvel fight... I think Danvers would stack up better against SUPES than she would against Billy. Danvers can manipulate energy and especially light (photons) and has some really S class energy senses. I could plausibly see her figuring out to just stop yellow light from reaching Supes and also bombard him with red light. Billy doesn't have a weakness like that, but OTOH, is a kid.

  11. - Top - End - #971
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Marvel Stories end.

    Then more stories start, sometimes with the same characters.

    @^ The solicitations for Absolute Carnageindicates that everyone who has ever worn a symbiote and is still alive will be involved to some degree.

    This is a lot of people.

    At a bare minimum, it includes several Hulks and Gods.

    If Age of X-Man is over by then, then it would also include Jean Grey and Ice Man, who are both potential planet killers.

    Both Carol Danvers and Steve Rogers have been bonbed to Symbiotes, so the current avengers line up is probably gonna be in the event and She-Hulk is currently stronger than the Green Scar(the Hulk personality from Planet Hulk and World War Hulk) at his strongest/angriest as her base so if the Avengers at all...
    Last edited by Rater202; 2019-03-22 at 03:45 PM.
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  12. - Top - End - #972
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post
    If Age of X-Man is over by then, then it would also include Jean Grey and Ice Man, who are both potential planet killers.

    Both Carol Danvers ... She-Hulk is currently stronger than the Green Scar(the Hulk personality from Planet Hulk and World War Hulk) at his strongest/angriest as her base so if the Avengers at all...
    Wow, I had no idea that She-Hulk was that strong; she USED to be a wee bit weaker than Hulk, am I right?

    Carol's extremely strong, I feel she's definitely Justice League A-list strength for sure. She-Hulk's definitely there, too, now. Jean Gray definitely, and now that you mention it yeah I can think of a few really epic feats Bobby has pulled.

  13. - Top - End - #973
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    All this talk is doing is reminding me of the time Carnage lost in a straight fist fight with Batman. For all the "Carnage is an invincible slasher villain" talk Rater is doing, the reality is that he's gone down like a punk dozens of times. It's just the nature of comics that power fluctuates up and down as needed for the story. Sometimes he can fight a dozen heroes at once and tank a bomb. Sometimes he loses to Spidey playing loud noises from a boombox.

  14. - Top - End - #974
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Bobby's an Omega Level Mutant.

    People, even people in-universe, make this mistake, Omega Level doesn't mean "high power level."

    It means "no limits to their power."

    If Bobby were so inclined he could freeze the entire earth solid and no one could stop him.

    The solicits also state that every symbiote there's ever been will be involved, not just symbiote hosts. The O-5 X-Men's symbiotes were genetically modified to bond faster and adapt instantly, so if those Symbiotes come back you're getting Jean Grey with thousands of extra minds supercharging her powers and letting her more easily control them. Cyclops with 360-degree vision and able to fire his "optic" blasts from every part of his body.

    @Above. Yeah, that story is not in continuity. It doesn't count, especially since it's Batman, the guy who wins when he'd never realistically stand a chance literally every time he faces a villain from out of town.
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  15. - Top - End - #975
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post


    If Bobby were so inclined he could freeze the entire earth solid and no one could stop him.
    Unless you, for example, teleported him to space because he can't *create* moisture, right? He needs atmo to do any of his stuff except maybe turning himself into his ice form? That one ability seems more arcane than the rest to me, for some reason.

  16. - Top - End - #976
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Odin himself at the height of his power has actually shown fear of what Bobbi could do.

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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Otomodachi View Post
    Wow, I had no idea that She-Hulk was that strong; she USED to be a wee bit weaker than Hulk, am I right?

    Carol's extremely strong, I feel she's definitely Justice League A-list strength for sure. She-Hulk's definitely there, too, now. Jean Gray definitely, and now that you mention it yeah I can think of a few really epic feats Bobby has pulled.
    I always thought she hulk was weaker than hulk, but faster and smarter because she keeps full control. But then, I never really followed her so im sure, much like the hulk himself, her abilities have leap frogged all up and down the spectrum of smarts versus strength. She ever gone grey? lol
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  18. - Top - End - #978
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    I always thought she hulk was weaker than hulk, but faster and smarter because she keeps full control. But then, I never really followed her so im sure, much like the hulk himself, her abilities have leap frogged all up and down the spectrum of smarts versus strength. She ever gone grey? lol
    She also has various 4th wall breaking powers. And I'm not simply talking about the awareness of being in a comic. She quite literally went through actual training to hone 4th wall breaking abilities. Such as how to travel between comic panels and other such powers. And yes they are treated as actual in universe powers.

    She's actually defeated one opponent by bringing up comic canon that this character died some time ago, and that caused them to fade away.
    Last edited by Devonix; 2019-03-22 at 06:21 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #979
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    I always thought she hulk was weaker than hulk, but faster and smarter because she keeps full control. But then, I never really followed her so im sure, much like the hulk himself, her abilities have leap frogged all up and down the spectrum of smarts versus strength. She ever went grey? lol
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    The Marvel Universe is a Universe that is equal parts Magic and Science--Which is to say, things that obey physics and things that just do whatever they want. There is overlap--there's supposedly an underlying "science" to all "magic" and some things have a little of both.

    Within some but not all humans is a "Gamma Gene," a byproduct from the celestial experiments that created mutants(and to a lesser extent all other non-god or alien superhumans.) If you have the Gamma Gene and get exposed to Gamma Rays, you become a Gamma Ray Mutate. Otherwise, radiation sickness.

    Gamma Radiation in, in real life, has two forms--one where it's a particle and one where it's a wave. In the Marvel Universe, there's a third form(discovered by Brian Banner, the Hulk's abusive, sociopathic father,) and while what this form is, besides some kind of energy, isn't described we know that this third form is "magic" not "science" and it's the third form that is in the bodies of Gamma Ray Mutates. It's also

    The Powers of a Gamma Ray Mutate are influenced by their personality, emotions, and psychological hangups--Whether its to embody them, like the Hulk(Bruce Banner has both severe uncontrollable anger issues and dissociative identity disorder. Banner doesn't become the Hulk, one of his alters becomes dominant and they get a portion of the Hulk's power,) exaggerate it(In the comics, Abomination looks like the Creature From Black Lagoon with powers to match because deep down this guy believes he's a monster) or correct them in a way that may or may not be ironic(Samuel Sterns is mildly mentally handicapped and learning disabled on top of that, leading him to drop out and become a janitor which he was bitter about. As The Leader, he's one of the smartest people in the world and a powerful psychic but he's also rather deformed and he has to wear a steel neckbrace or his neck will break from the weight of his mighty brain.)

    Jen's mostly mentally stable, so she gets to transform at will and only gets a slight personality adjustment--Jen's biggest issues are a lack of confidence in her looks and a bit of sexual repression, so She-Hulk is confident and owns her sexuality(Jen actually became a bit concerned about this at one point when she realized that "Jennifer Walters" has only had sex with two people but "She-Hulk" has slept with over a thousand that she remembers.)

    So usually, Jenny's power set is "less powerful version of the hulk." She also has fourth wall breaking powers, but she hasn't used them in a while and now Gwen Pool has powers like that so I doubt that those will ever come up again unless the current Avengers do a crossover with the current West Coast Avengers(And even then, Gwen has stated that she didn't read any Deadpool comics because, ironically enough, she doesn't like characters that are 'lol memes' so it's unlikely that she's read the She-Hulk comics where Jen demonstrated those powers so she's not gonna bring it up)

    Actually, a bit of interesting Trivia: While Jen's strength was lower than the Hulk's, and she only got a small boost from fear or anger, her base strength in she-hulk form is a multiplyer, not a flat PL.

    Hulk has a certain base strength--it's different for each personality--that doesn't change, in addition to that, Hulk has a connection to a dimension of infinite mass and energy which among other things gives the Hulk "Absolute strength." It's not that the Hulk gets stronger the angrier he gets, it's that the hulk is inifntly strong but most personalities have conscious, subconscious, and inherent limitations that prevent him from accessing that full strength(Notably, the Savage Hulk, the childlike and somewhat innocent "Hulk Smash Puny X, Hulk Strongest There is" personality, instinctively goes out of his way to avoid killing.) Anything that would enhance the Hulk's base strength before tapping into the "infinte" strength short of absorbing additional gamma rays will be gone the next time he changes unless he deviates and forms a new persona before reverting to banner(Exposure to massive amounts of Gamma Radiation and Dark Magic makes The Green Scar far more powerful than the Savage Hulk at base, which combined with his ability to focus his anger and greater control over his powers...)

    she-Hulk, meanwhile, has a level of power that is derived from Jen's. If Jen gets bigger, faster, stronger in human form, then She-Hulk gets exponentially bigger, stronger, and faster. She-Hulk can also do training in that form and while the gains won't carry over to Jen, they'll be there when Jen turns into She-Hulk again.

    Jen went from being half as strong as the Thing to being his equal by doing dedicated weight training in both forms, during her time as a temporary member of the Fantastic Four.

    However, in the last couple of years, Bruce was in a very bad place, culminated with him essentially arranging his own death--He gave Hawkeye a specially designed arrow that would neutralize the Hulk's powers and pierce through his flesh and blood and told Hawkeye to use it if it ever looked like banner had lost control of the hulk.

    Then Civil war II happened--Jen got beat into a coma and when she woke up, she found out that her friend Clint Barton had killed er cousin Bruce--An Inhuman precog had a vision of a seemingly mindless Hulk rampaging through New York and fighting heroes with intent to kill, various heroes, confronted Bruce, the situation escalated, and Hawkeye panicked and the anti-hulk Arrow went into bruce's brain(Bruce is back now. He's perfectly okay with Clint but the current Hulk is understandably pissed that Clint went along with Bruce's mercy kill plan instead of telling the Avengers to put Bruce on Suicide Watch.)

    This put Jen in a bad place--with both Hawkeye and Bruce being major Triggers for her, and these issues turned her hulk Form into a Hulking Grey brute instead of a hot green Amazon. Even the slightest reminder of what happened would trigger a painful transformation into a dumb brute.

    She eventually got these issues mostly back under control... but then a bunch of 500 ft tall cosmic gods fell out of the sky. One of these dying Celestials gave it's power to Jen, the cosmic energy changing to Gama Rays as it entered her System, and turbocharging her powers.

    Her base level of power is greater than the Green Scar was at World Breaker. IT's unknown how much of a boost she gets from fear and anger, but it's known that she can now generate heat and radiation and use it to augment her blows(though she accidentally nuked a Russian prison while trying to burn off Vampire Rats that were biting her in the most recent issue of Avengers... Luckily, everyone, there was already dead from vampires by then.)

    However... she gets stupid when she hulks out.
    Jen: "Hulk Smash!"
    Carol: "Jen, we talked about this."
    Jen: "Jen Walters Smash!"
    Carol: "Better"
    The implication is that the loss of intelligence is lingering side effects of the issues that came up from Bruce's death--she's been getting better over time and notably she briefly got a lot worse when the Avengers confronted Bruce (they were forced to or Sasquatch would have been executed for crimes he didn't commit, because Ross's replacement in the Hulk Task Force is an even bigger jackass than Ross ever was) and Jen lost her temper when she talked about how badly Bruce's loved ones were hurt by his "kill me" plan.

    Note: Jen might be stronger than the Green Scar now, but the Immortal Hulk is stronger still by a wide margin. As the original persona, the one that hasn't been seen since the early Lee-Kirby era, the Devil Hulk has access to all of the Hulk's powers. When the confrontation turned violent, the Avengers all got their collective asses kicked and they had to evacuate a nearby town and essentially Nuke it with a Kill Sat to temporarily stop the hulk.

    Carol's really pissed about that. She doesn't much like the Hulk Task Force right now and after getting Sasquatch back formed a division of Alpha Flight dedicated to both monitoring the Hulk without picking fights with him and screwing over the Hulk Taskforce, because as the Boss of Space she's more than capable of doing all of that.
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    Meteor
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    Way down the air
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    Where my other
    Rocks
    Are.

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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post

    She eventually got these issues mostly back under control... but then a bunch of 500 ft tall cosmic gods fell out of the sky. One of these dying Celestials gave it's power to Jen, the cosmic energy changing to Gama Rays as it entered her System, and turbocharging her powers.

    [/SPOILER]
    Wait, wait, are you essentially saying she
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    ate a fricking CELESTIAL? Nuff said right there.


    Thanks for doing that long write-up, it was informative and pretty easy to read!

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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Otomodachi View Post
    Wait, wait, are you essentially saying she
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    ate a fricking CELESTIAL? Nuff said right there.


    Thanks for doing that long write-up, it was informative and pretty easy to read!
    More than a freaking Celestial that was dying fed itself to her in the hopes that it would someone help the Avengers stop the Dark Celestials.

    She's not the strongest Avenger, BTW. That's Robbie--the Fourth Ghost Rider.

    The various Demons and Fallen Angels, collectively called the Spirits of Vengence, that the Ghost Riders draw their power from are all nigh-omnipotent--Mephisto's technically stronger, but...

    However, Ghost Riders can only tap so much of that power at a time.

    Robbie's different from Johnny and Danny in that he's not possessed by one of the spirits of Vengence. Instead, he has a mystical connection to his car, which is both connected directly to Hell and possessed by the Demonically Empowered Ghost of his Satanist Uncle and this is how the powers of hell and Vengence are channeled into Robbie. (His Uncle's been quiet for a while now, though.)

    This means he's significantly less Limited in how much of his power he can tap. IT's really just his own hangups and subconscious limitation.

    As demonstrated by the same story where She-Hulk got her boost, where Robbie, needing to fight the Dark Celestials, climbs into the body of a dead one(not the same one as what gave Jen her boost) and Riderized it--you know, infuse something with Hellfire to use it as a mount.

    Half-Way through the fight, Robbie realizes that he hasn't tapped any of the power of the Celestial he possessed and that's all him.

    "How strong am I?"
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  22. - Top - End - #982
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Rater202 View Post

    "How strong am I?"
    Where would you put him compared to the Spectre? I don't wanna turn this whole thread into "ranking Marvel and DC characters" even though that maybe not a TOTAL derail... but I appreciate your UP TO DATE comic lore and wanna mine it a little.

  23. - Top - End - #983
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Otomodachi View Post
    Where would you put him compared to the Spectre? I don't wanna turn this whole thread into "ranking Marvel and DC characters" even though that maybe not a TOTAL derail... but I appreciate your UP TO DATE comic lore and wanna mine it a little.
    Spectre's hard to scale. He can basically do anything as long as God lets him. And if God says no, then he'll fail. Spectre's shown the ability to oneshot Darkseid on his home turf, but god won't let him do the deed.
    Last edited by Devonix; 2019-03-23 at 08:42 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #984
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    Spectre's hard to scale. He can basically do anything as long as God lets him. And if God says no, then he'll fail. Spectre's shown the ability to oneshot Darkseid on his home turf, but god won't let him do the deed.
    Yeah, that's why I put him up there as a comparison, he's pretty much the top in DC aside from like... event characters. He's probably generally a cut above the emotional spectrum entities, he's beyond Darkseid in the sense that he's straight up changed the trajectory of Omega Beams, which is the thing that lets Darkseid swing above his weight class sometimes.

    The "hand of god thing" limitation tied into being the Spirit of Vengeance is always worth remembering, but at the end of the day MOST comic book characters operate under sorta arbitrary whims of how strong they are on any given time.

    But yeah, I'm just kinda trying to wrap my head around... it seems like Marvel's characters his powered up a lot in the last like... 15 years since I was reading any of the recurring books. Hearing about someone riding around inside a dead Celestial is just... woah, interesting.
    Last edited by Otomodachi; 2019-03-23 at 09:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Now here is what I wonder. Is it better if your character has an excuse for constantly varying power levels narratively speaking? I mean, when you have guys like the flash taking pies to the face in between dodging light speed attacks on pure reflex it is kinda silly, but then again, if you try to justify it as "Oh, yeah, totally spectre could do this... but god doesnt want him to so he cant" it feels like trying to paper over a plot hole by admitting your character is too strong to do the things the way you want him to without justifying it. On the other hand, ignoring it doesnt make it go away. Having superman NOT speed blitz his enemies when it totally would work because otherwise the comic ends too soon isnt any better when you just ignore that and keep going.
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  26. - Top - End - #986
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Now here is what I wonder. Is it better if your character has an excuse for constantly varying power levels narratively speaking? I mean, when you have guys like the flash taking pies to the face in between dodging light speed attacks on pure reflex it is kinda silly, but then again, if you try to justify it as "Oh, yeah, totally spectre could do this... but god doesnt want him to so he cant" it feels like trying to paper over a plot hole by admitting your character is too strong to do the things the way you want him to without justifying it. On the other hand, ignoring it doesnt make it go away. Having superman NOT speed blitz his enemies when it totally would work because otherwise the comic ends too soon isnt any better when you just ignore that and keep going.
    To me characters like Superman and The Flashes not taking the optimal solution to a problem all the time makes sense. These are characters, not robots, Some things can be as simple as not getting a good enough breakfast and being distracted that day. No one is perfect all of the time, and just because you posess the ability to do something, doesn't mean you'll do it when you should.

    The Specter however is kind of a robot, It's not that he doesn't try to do something, it's that he's a guard dog on a leash, and sometimes the leash get's pulled.

  27. - Top - End - #987
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Now here is what I wonder. Is it better if your character has an excuse for constantly varying power levels narratively speaking? I mean, when you have guys like the flash taking pies to the face in between dodging light speed attacks on pure reflex it is kinda silly, but then again, if you try to justify it as "Oh, yeah, totally spectre could do this... but god doesnt want him to so he cant" it feels like trying to paper over a plot hole by admitting your character is too strong to do the things the way you want him to without justifying it. On the other hand, ignoring it doesnt make it go away. Having superman NOT speed blitz his enemies when it totally would work because otherwise the comic ends too soon isnt any better when you just ignore that and keep going.
    It depends on the quality of the writing. Like you said, it can be paper over a plot hole, on the other hand, it could just be highly specific limitations on the character's power. If the limitations are known and consistent then it works really well. Typically anyways.

    Meanwhile just ignoring the problem like the Flash or Superman does just makes you look stupid.
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Hey, does anyone know what happened to the Death Battle music? It used to be on Youtube, and most of it is pretty damn awesome. But now it's gone, and I have no idea where to find it.
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    It depends on the quality of the writing. Like you said, it can be paper over a plot hole, on the other hand, it could just be highly specific limitations on the character's power. If the limitations are known and consistent then it works really well. Typically anyways.
    When is it that "limitations are known and consistent" for it to work well? Not one of these characters we talk about have consistent limitations on how their powers work. Superman can get hit by lightning one day and avoid hyperlightspeed omega beams or outpace Reverse Flash the next. However, even more limited characters have wild fluctuations on what they can avoid, what hurts them by how much, and what sorts of physics-defying they can do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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  30. - Top - End - #990
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    When is it that "limitations are known and consistent" for it to work well? Not one of these characters we talk about have consistent limitations on how their powers work. Superman can get hit by lightning one day and avoid hyperlightspeed omega beams or outpace Reverse Flash the next. However, even more limited characters have wild fluctuations on what they can avoid, what hurts them by how much, and what sorts of physics-defying they can do.
    If I'm coming up with an example you better believe it's not going to be a Marvel or DC character.

    I suppose the first example that comes to mind is Raistlin from Dragonlance. Literally has the power to overthrow the gods, still manages to get stabbed by a dwarf. And it stays consistent because his limitation is keeping his concentration. If he loses his concentration (such as a random time travelling kender appearing in front of him), he can't cast his magic, and goes from god-slaying archmage to sickly mortal with a funny skin color.
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