Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

[Rater202]

I don't believe that adapting in skill and power is a confirmed aspect of Ultra Instinct. I do believe that it simply allows a fighter to fight to the absolute best of their ability, and always make the correct move for any given situation without thinking. It should still be possible to overcome it given a large enough difference in power.

If you actually watch the fights and pay close enough attention, Goku noticibly improves both while fighting Jiren the first time he uses it and Kefla the second time he uses it.

The true example, however,r comes after Goku masters Ultra Instinct while fighting Full Power Jiren.

Immediately upon entering the form again, she shoots up well past Jiren's full power--eventually, Jiren's rage lets him push past his own limitations and gain an unknown but massive increase in power, that gives him the uperhand against Goku and manhandle him for a bit... And then Goku instnatly shoots past Jiren again. This one is more questionable, but when Jiren tried to kill Goku's friends in the stands to proof a philosopshical poitn, Goku's power seems to shoot up again(though that could just be Goku taking the kiddy gloves off or getting a temporary rage boost) and he proceeds to beat the ever loving [Censor Bleep] out of Jiren, leaving Jiren at a fraction of the power he had before and emotionally broken. Goku had him dead to rights and would have won the tournement then and there if he'd had enough stamina to maintain UI for just one more second.

(For the record, Frieza, who was nowhere near Jiren's power when Jiren was only using his natural strength without any Ki, was able to manhandled Jiren when Goku was done with him and even after a pep talk restors Jiren's resolve, he's clearly nowhere near the power he had at the begining of the tournment. And if Any f Goku's enemies or rivals fills the same narrative role, the best, the invicible, the ace, as Superman, it's Jiren.)

[Devonix]

To simplify this even more (if you understand Exalted) its basically Perfect Offense and Perfect Defense

AKA the thing Goku was supposed to have mastered way back before the Red ribbon Army. Unfortunately Toryama found it too difficult to write a character with that ability so Goku forgot it.

[Rater202]

AKA the thing Goku was supposed to have mastered way back before the Red ribbon Army. Unfortunately Toryama found it too difficult to write a character with that ability so Goku forgot it.

Eh... What Goku supposnedly mastered back then was Mushin. Basically, a medtive state and also generally considered to be a real thing.

Ultra Instinct is more the very concept of that exaggerated to the most extreme is could conceivably be.

[Devonix]

Eh... What Goku supposnedly mastered back then was Mushin. Basically, a medtive state and also generally considered to be a real thing.

Ultra Instinct is more the very concept of that exaggerated to the most extreme is could conceivably be.

My point is that this is very similar to a thing he was supposed to have mastered long ago but then the series seemed to ignore. And now it's likely they'll do the exact same thing with UI

[Rater202]

My point is that this is very similar to a thing he was supposed to have mastered long ago but then the series seemed to ignore. And now it's likely they'll do the exact same thing with UI

Eh, UI's a transformation and visually distinctive. It'll be a while before it's irrelevant, and that's assuming that Dragon Ball comes back a s along term series again.

What's most likely is that Goku will keep training until he gains the ability to use UI at will, and then he'll train to master the transformation that grants him UI and remove it's fdraw backs(massive stamina drain and rough on the body) and then maybe he'll find away to use UI and Super Saiyan(or Supersaiyan God, or Kaioken) at the same time, and then all three, and then maybe we'll get an unrelated state of being that's superior to UI in every way.

Unless Goku gets a oneshot form in the movie coming out in December.

[Devonix]

Eh, UI's a transformation and visually distinctive. It'll be a while before it's irrelevant, and that's assuming that Dragon Ball comes back a s along term series again.

What's most likely is that Goku will keep training until he gains the ability to use UI at will, and then he'll train to master the transformation that grants him UI and remove it's fdraw backs(massive stamina drain and rough on the body) and then maybe he'll find away to use UI and Super Saiyan(or Supersaiyan God, or Kaioken) at the same time, and then all three, and then maybe we'll get an unrelated state of being that's superior to UI in every way.

Unless Goku gets a oneshot form in the movie coming out in December.

It's moreso that if Goku has the ability to instinctively dodge stuff. It wouldn't fit with the way Dragon Ball fights are choreographed. It worked as this amazing thing that the character does for one part of a story arc. But doesn't fit the way fights happen in the series and they'd have to fundimentally change the show to have it stick around.

[Rater202]

It's moreso that if Goku has the ability to instinctively dodge stuff. It wouldn't fit with the way Dragon Ball fights are choreographed. It worked as this amazing thing that the character does for one part of a story arc. But doesn't fit the way fights happen in the series and they'd have to fundimentally change the show to have it stick around.

I think that's kind of why it ended up something that Goku can only do where he's pushed past all of his limits rather than something he can do at will.

Or Power Creep could set in and he ends up fighting people who also have UI, making them cancel out, or else who are so far beyond his base power that not even the rapid power scaling of UI is enough for him to get to their level before they whoop him meaning he still has to train.

Though we're kind of getting beyond the scope of the argument. Does UI give Goku a chance at beating Superman? I'd argue that, even if Goku didn't have a chance before if pushed to his limitless UI state he'd probably win.

[Devonix]

I think that's kind of why it ended up something that Goku can only do where he's pushed past all of his limits rather than something he can do at will.

Or Power Creep could set in and he ends up fighting people who also have UI, making them cancel out, or else who are so far beyond his base power that not even the rapid power scaling of UI is enough for him to get to their level before they whoop him meaning he still has to train.

Though we're kind of getting beyond the scope of the argument. Does UI give Goku a chance at beating Superman? I'd argue that, even if Goku didn't have a chance before if pushed to his limitless UI state he'd probably win.

Oh this is my discussion. I'm not touching the Goku/Superman discussion anymore. It's more fun talking about how abilities affect storytelling. Or talking about other matchups than the goku/superman nonsense again.

[Rater202]

Okay, let's talk something else, hypothetical matchups.

DC's Icon vs Marvels.

Superman vs Peak Spider-Man.

Superman is stronger, but all Spider-Persons in the Marvel Multiverse have been magic since a storyline from 2001 retconed the reason why the radioactive spider-bite gave Peter Parker superpowers instead of cancer.

At his peak(Which is to say, after The Other: Evolve or Die and Prior to One More Day), Peter Parker had Superhuman strength sufficient to lift 20 imperial tons overhead with corresponding increases to his other atributes over his base, could regenerate at a level comperable to Wolverine, could control and comuncate with spiders, use his sticekm-powers via everypart of his body, see in the dark, was fully clairvoyant though his spider-sense, had retractable stingers in his wrists, with a length comperable to wolverine's claws, filled with a paralytic venom that deployed when he was angry or int he presense of supernatural totemistic beings, and was the Avatar of a Totemistic Arachnomoprhic Deity that held domain of Mutation and Evolution.

(Some would argue that Peak Spider-Man was during the storyline where he had the powers of Captian Universe, but that's a powerset that's innately temporary.)

[tonberrian]

Okay, let's talk something else, hypothetical matchups.

DC's Icon vs Marvels.

Superman vs Peak Spider-Man.

Superman is stronger, but all Spider-Persons in the Marvel Multiverse have been magic since a storyline from 2001 retconed the reason why the radioactive spider-bite gave Peter Parker superpowers instead of cancer.

At his peak(Which is to say, after The Other: Evolve or Die and Prior to One More Day), Peter Parker had Superhuman strength sufficient to lift 20 imperial tons overhead with corresponding increases to his other atributes over his base, could regenerate at a level comperable to Wolverine, could control and comuncate with spiders, use his sticekm-powers via everypart of his body, see in the dark, was fully clairvoyant though his spider-sense, had retractable stingers in his wrists, with a length comperable to wolverine's claws, filled with a paralytic venom that deployed when he was angry or int he presense of supernatural totemistic beings, and was the Avatar of a Totemistic Arachnomoprhic Deity that held domain of Mutation and Evolution.

(Some would argue that Peak Spider-Man was during the storyline where he had the powers of Captian Universe, but that's a powerset that's innately temporary.)

Like, none of that is actually magicking Superman in any way, so Supes wins. I think even Justice League Unlimited Supes wins, and that's like the lowest Superman on the totem pole - it doesn't matter how clairvoyant you are if you just aren't fast enough to dodge at excessive mach speeds.

[Rater202]

Like, none of that is actually magicking Superman in any way

Death battles ruled that Goku's power pole hurt Superman, so for our purposes just being magic should be enough to hurt him.

[Lemmy]

Death battles ruled that Goku's power pole hurt Superman, so for our purposes just being magic should be enough to hurt him.

Goku's staff is actually magic, though... Spider-man (IIRC) has non-magic powers, obtained from a non-magic source that was guided by a magic entity/force.

Or it used to be something like that, anyway... I haven't kept up with Spider-man in the last 2 years or so, so they might have retconned it all even more and made it more magical. I don't know.

But it doesn't matter. Superman could just swing a giant steel beam at mach-5 or something and squash Spider-man. No way Spider-man can evade or resist Superman's attacks.

[Keltest]

Death battles ruled that Goku's power pole hurt Superman, so for our purposes just being magic should be enough to hurt him.

Superman's vulnerability to magic is frequently misstated. Its less of a specific vulnerability and more of a lack of invulnerability. A magic ability would affect him like it would anybody else. If that means it punches him with the force of a mac truck, then he probably isn't going to be too badly affected by it, because that's just not a lot of force to Superman. If that means he is frozen in place or blinded or turned to stone or something, then it would work.

[Dragonus45]

Ultra instinct is a state of being that can only assume by the most masterful of martial artists wearing one's skill reaches a point where it trancends instinct and reflexes--the most accurate translation of the original Japanese characters it's written with would be "The art of the body moving on it's own."

Simply put, once someone has mastered Ultra instinct, they don't have to perceive or think while in combat, they just sort of fight perfectly automatically and will automatically and instantly adapt in both power and skill to fight any opponent.

And yet sheer power was still enough to stand equal with it.

[Rater202]

Goku's staff is actually magic, though... Spider-man (IIRC) has non-magic powers, obtained from a non-magic source that was guided by a magic entity/force...

Well... It was something like that, but I haven't kept up with Spider-man in the last 2 years or so, so they might have retconned it all even more and made it more magical. I don't know.

Amazing Spider-Man #795 establishes that Spider-Man's very touch has supernatural properties(According to Loki, a spider-totems very touch is fatal to a race of demonic wasps and that holds up in combat. He also negates the spell holding them in a jar by touching said jar), and that's when he's not the Avatar of a Totemistic God.

Also, for the purposes of this conversation, I'm very deliberately not arguing Death Battles' depiction of Superman, and DB depicted Superman getting hurt by a weapon wielded by somoene who, according to them, otherwise didn't stand a chance just becuase the stick he was being it with was magic.

@^ Briefly stand Equal to it. Goku rapidly increased in power and shot way past Jiren after mastering it.

[Lemmy]

Amazing Spider-Man #795 establishes that Spider-Man's very touch has supernatural properties(According to Loki, a spider-totems very touch is fatal to a race of demonic wasps and that holds up in combat. He also negates the spell holding them in a jar by touching said jar), and that's when he's not the Avatar of a Totemistic God.

Are you talking about Morlun & family? I kinda had forgotten about him... IIRC, the first time he appears, Spider-man actually defeats him by making himself more radioactive, which poisons Morlun every time they touch each other.

[Rater202]

Are you talking about Morlun & family? I kinda had forgotten about him... IIRC, the first time he appears, Spider-man actually defeats him by making himself more radioactive, which poisons Morlun every time they touch each other.

Morlun's appearance was the storyline that established the Totem thing, but no. Not the inheritors. The Inheritors are sort of Transdimensional Vampires.

I'm talkingactual giant Demon Wasps.

If it's needed, I can explain why Spider-Man is magic, but it'd um... It'd take a bit so I'll do it if someone asks.

[Delicious Taffy]

I'm always down for Spidey facts. It's been a minute since I read some lore, so the specifics of his magical nature are kinda dusty.

[Rater202]

I'm always down for Spidey facts. It's been a minute since I read some lore, so the specifics of his magical nature are kinda dusty.

Okay then.

First, there's the concept of a "Totem," which in the Superhuman context essentially refers to an entity that, literally or metaphorically combines the traits of a human being(or the equivelent, IE the anthropomorphic cartoon animals of Larval Earth,) and one or more of the other categories of being animal--Mamals, inscents and other arthropods, birds, reptiles, and so on. Doctor Conors is a reptile totem beucuase his DNA is combined with that of several reptiles, black Panther is a Panther Totem becuase, while he's not literally part Panther the spirtual aspects of the process by which one becomes the Panther associates the ritual with various panther deities(Infact, Morlun went after T'challa once.) the only cutoff is that you have to actually be Superhuman or at least directly enhanced by magic or mutation--cyborgs and power armor without any other modifications don't count.

Most of the time, it doesn't mean much if you're not an inheritor(who feed on life force and have to take it from multible types of beings, and the life force of totems is extra nutriscious becuase it metaphysically counts as both kinds even if the person is genetically human)

However, when it comes to Spider-totems, it gets a bit wonky. You see, the Marvel Multiverse is Spider-Web shaped, with each parrelel reality and alternate timeline being a strand of the greater whole. Walking across these strands are arachnomorphic totemistic deities who in turn weave new bits of reality.

These deities are also, themselves, called Spider-Totems, the though the term "Great Totem" is aplo used to refer to them and I'll be using that to avoid confusion from now on.

The existence of these Great Totems--particularly The Great Weaver, The Gatekeeper, The Bride, The Scion, and The Other, and the Great Web of Life and Destiny(Sort of a model of the Multiverse, changes to it affect the Multiverse and vice versa and it can be used to travel various tmelines) not only mean that there are a lot more ways to become a Spder-toem than any other variety and the mere fact that you've gained Spider-like powers means that, regardless of how you got them, you're automatically connected to the Great Web and through it the Spider-Gods(It is explicitly stated that if the Web were to be destroyed, it would become impossible for More Spider-Totems to be made. There's kind of a stable loop of cuase and effect here.)

Differant kinds of Totems fall under the perview of differant Spider-Gods--The Bride, for example, has dominion over Totems whose powers are caused either by random chance or through purly magical means. The Scion is implied to hold dominion over totems who inherited their power(It's Avatar is Benjy Parker, from the MC2 Universe) while the Other can be infered from it's comments, actions, and choice of Avatars to hold dominion over genetic mutation and natural evolution(Of note, one of it's potential Avatars before it settle on Peter/Kaine, depending on pre or post OMD, was an actual X-Gene Mutant.)

Great Totems often take Spider-Totems as Avatars, but just being a Spider-Totem makes you magic by defualt.

Note: This applies on a multiversal scale. As of Spider-Verse, a 2012 storyline, this applies to every version of every Spider-Person in the Marvel Multiverse, even retroactivly.90s Cartoon Spider-Man? He's magic. Life Action Japanese Spider-Man? Magic. Memetic 1960s jackass Spider-Man? Even he's magic.(The Meme was actually referenced in Web Warriors #1)

[Forum Explorer]

Okay, let's talk something else, hypothetical matchups.

DC's Icon vs Marvels.

Superman vs Peak Spider-Man.

Superman is stronger, but all Spider-Persons in the Marvel Multiverse have been magic since a storyline from 2001 retconed the reason why the radioactive spider-bite gave Peter Parker superpowers instead of cancer.

At his peak(Which is to say, after The Other: Evolve or Die and Prior to One More Day), Peter Parker had Superhuman strength sufficient to lift 20 imperial tons overhead with corresponding increases to his other atributes over his base, could regenerate at a level comperable to Wolverine, could control and comuncate with spiders, use his sticekm-powers via everypart of his body, see in the dark, was fully clairvoyant though his spider-sense, had retractable stingers in his wrists, with a length comperable to wolverine's claws, filled with a paralytic venom that deployed when he was angry or int he presense of supernatural totemistic beings, and was the Avatar of a Totemistic Arachnomoprhic Deity that held domain of Mutation and Evolution.

(Some would argue that Peak Spider-Man was during the storyline where he had the powers of Captian Universe, but that's a powerset that's innately temporary.)

Seems like a pretty easy win for Superman. I mean none of that really helps if Superman just picks Spidy up and throws him into the sun.

[Anteros]

And yet sheer power was still enough to stand equal with it.

When did that happen? Jiren got the snot beaten out of him and Goku didn't even break a sweat. He just couldn't control the form long enough to finish the job.


On Spider vs. Supes...they've fought several times before and it's always depicted as if Supes could squash Peter without breaking a sweat. The only time Spidey ever managed to put up a fight was when Superman was severely depowered by some sort of plot device I can't quite recall. I don't think whatever magical background he might have is enough to make the difference. Someone like Strange might have a shot, but Spidey would get crushed the second Superman decided to take things seriously.

[donpaul]

Are't like... All his sand techniques technically wind jutsu?

Even I thought this xD

[Rater202]

When did that happen? Jiren got the snot beaten out of him and Goku didn't even break a sweat. He just couldn't control the form long enough to finish the job.


On Spider vs. Supes...they've fought several times before and it's always depicted as if Supes could squash Peter without breaking a sweat. The only time Spidey ever managed to put up a fight was when Superman was severely depowered by some sort of plot device I can't quite recall. I don't think whatever magical background he might have is enough to make the difference. Someone like Strange might have a shot, but Spidey would get crushed the second Superman decided to take things seriously.

To be fair, I'm pretty sure those all predate the "he's magic" Retcon and for sure none of them had Spidey as The Other's Avatar.

[Traab]

Spiderman just doesnt have the stats to do anything to superman. In a real death battle, peak spiderman would go like this "FIG-/SPLURT!" "KO!"

[Doorhandle]

AKA the thing Goku was supposed to have mastered way back before the Red ribbon Army. Unfortunately Toryama found it too difficult to write a character with that ability so Goku forgot it.

To quote DBZ abridged, "No-one watched dragonball!"

Spiderman just doesnt have the stats to do anything to superman. In a real death battle, peak spiderman would go like this "FIG-/SPLURT!" "KO!"

I think I could see one way for him to win avoid insta-gibbing. For one series, spiderman was temporarily Captain Universe, with all the cosmic power that implies.

Not enough to let him win, but enough for a fun fight at least.

[Kitten Champion]

To quote DBZ abridged, "No-one watched dragonball!"


I think I could see one way for him to win avoid insta-gibbing. For one series, spiderman was temporarily Captain Universe, with all the cosmic power that implies.

Not enough to let him win, but enough for a fun fight at least.

I was thinking of mentioning that - given that's peak peak Spider-Man - but in the end that would really be Captain Universe versus Superman, just Captain Universe's host happens to also be Peter Parker in that scenario.

I don't know why we'd want Spider-Man v. Superman to be a thing, if Spider-Man ever really achieved that Kryptonian power level (as anything more than a complete one-off) it would completely undermine the whole core concept of the character as developed in the last five decades.

[Gandariel]

When did that happen? Jiren got the snot beaten out of him and Goku didn't even break a sweat. He just couldn't control the form long enough to finish the job.

The point is that it's clearly shown to be a quantitative difference, not qualitative.

There exists an amount of power that would beat it. Therefore it's just another multiplier, no matter what fancy fluff they give it.

And if it's just a multiplier, it could be x10 or x1000, it still wouldn't beat infinite.

Also, regarding Hakai, it's not an "entropy ball of soul destroying blah blah blah". It's just another generic energy ball with fancy fluff. Several characters have resisted or overpowered it by just being strong / exerting themselves enough. Again, quantitative difference, not qualitative.

[Lemmy]

The point is that it's clearly shown to be a quantitative difference, not qualitative.

There exists an amount of power that would beat it. Therefore it's just another multiplier, no matter what fancy fluff they give it.

And if it's just a multiplier, it could be x10 or x1000, it still wouldn't beat infinite.

Also, regarding Hakai, it's not an "entropy ball of soul destroying blah blah blah". It's just another generic energy ball with fancy fluff. Several characters have resisted or overpowered it by just being strong / exerting themselves enough. Again, quantitative difference, not qualitative.

Doesn't matter because Superman's power is clearly NOT INFINITY, despite whatever non-sense DB claims.

And Hakai specifically erases stuff from existence. It's not just a energy attack. The fact that it can be resistes doesn't change what it does... Specially since it's clear that it isn't raw power alone that allows the character to resist the effects.

[Keltest]

Doesn't matter because Superman's power is clearly NOT INFINITY, despite whatever non-sense DB claims.

And Hakai specifically erases stuff from existence. It's not just a energy attack. The fact that it can be resistes doesn't change what it does... Specially since it's clear that it isn't raw power alone that allows the character to resist the effects.

The only reason ive seen stated in this thread for why Superman cant be infinitely powerful is that any of the demonstrations would have broken physics, which makes me wonder if the people making that claim are remotely familiar with either Superman comics or Dragonball.

[Devonix]

Still upset that they had Vegeta punch through a Hakai. Dammit guys you have this cool ability and technique. Something that would force your characters to think around it, use some interesting strategies to fight the opponent. But NOooooOO Just have your character be strong enough to ignore it.