Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

[Kato]

I keep coming across Megas especially in relation to Gurren Lagann.. Since I never saw the former: is it worth watching?
But yes, Gurren Lagann is just to crazy an opponent to fight at peak power. At least with Simon piloting it.

I've been wondering for a while if you could make an interesting death battle with the Doctor.. It seems to me a little hard to do.

[Rater202]

I keep coming across Megas especially in relation to Gurren Lagann. Since I never saw the former: is it worth watching?
But yes, Gurren Lagann is just too crazy an opponent to fight at peak power. At least with Simon piloting it.

I've been wondering for a while if you could make an interesting death battle with the Doctor. It seems to me a little hard to do.

Gurren Lagann paved the way for Crazy, over the top and ridiculous Giant Robot Stuff...

...But it was only because Megas obliterated the Mountain in the way that there could be a road to pave.

M.E.G.A.S. was a highly advanced Alien War Mech from thousands of years in the future. Stolen by the Human resistance and sent back in time to the beginning of the War... except the cockpit/head was destroyed and they overshot their mark. It spent decades at the bottom of the "everything is two bucks" pile at a junkyard in Jersey City, New Jersey until it was purchased, for two bucks, by a fat guy named Coop.

Coop somehow managed to repair it(replacing the missing head with a hotrod that has been modified with countless gaming peripherals) and actually managed to make it better--some of the weapons don't work anymore, others work differently than intended, some are missing, and some were actually instaled by Coop and were never in the machine until he got it(The Jammer, for example, is a weaponized Karaoke Machine). Coop is also the only person who has any idea what any of the buttons do, and between that and the modifications he made, Kiva,the one who was meant to pilot in the future,is met with no end of frustration(Several episodes involve her trying to activate one of Megas weapons using a holographic interface or telling Coop todo the same from the driver's seat only for that weapon to not be there anymore or to have a differant function--Notably, and EMP missle had been turned into a refrigerator.)

However, Megas has a demonstrated ability to do anything, even warping reality to accomplish so--In one episode Coop combines Megas with the bots of a group of Voltron/Power Rangers knockoffs and it explicitly mentioned that there's no way that should have worked. (He actually damaged their mechs in the process, but on the other hand, it let him kill their Big Bad.)

Other features of Megas are the "Context Sensitive Button" that has a different label and does a differant thing each time it's used--which could have been explained by Coop modifying Megas, and he knew to work on it... Except in One Episode, he pushes it twice, with the label being "The exact same button Coop Pressed Ten minutes ago" which proceeded to do something differant than it had before.

(Notable Features for Death Battle's Purposes include buttons labeled 'Destroy the World, Smite The World, Destroy the World Worse, and Save the World") and the Wave Motion Gun.*(Megas is bigger on the inside to a degree surpassed only by the TARDIS itself.)

Basically, a Fight Between Megas and Gurren Lagann becomes a constant escalation of increasingly large and over the top weapons and possibilities and it could honestly go either way.

*Yes. Megas somehow contains The Space Battleship Yamato inside itself.

[Traab]

Rater is right, the two bots are both built along similar lines. Determination and reality warping powers that allow their pilots to win. Yes, even then. The only problem being, megas is obviously built along a much lower tier of power. While he may have HAD a destroy the world button, I dont think it was ever used, and even if it had been, gurren at its peak is like, the size of half the universe or something. So that button would remove its little toe then fizzle out. Yes the argument can be made that it would keep evolving to match, but even in a reality warping contest they would have to stick with whatever level of feats either has been seen to pull off. So chances are the fight would go something like this.

/insert lots of yelling and explosions as both bots start from standard size and power up to exceed the other.

/coop "Ok you psycho bastard, take THIS world destroying blast!!!" /hits THE BUTTON

/simon "WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM!!!!!!!!!!" /gurren laggen swells into immensity, engulfing the milky way then even further. There is a tiny flea speck blip on the bottom of its little toe

/coop "Ooooh heck." /squash

[Rater202]

Rater is right, the two bots are both built along similar lines. Determination and reality warping powers that allow their pilots to win. Yes, even then. The only problem being, megas is obviously built along a much lower tier of power. While he may have HAD a destroy the world button, I dont think it was ever used, and even if it had been, gurren at its peak is like, the size of half the universe or something. So that button would remove its little toe then fizzle out. Yes the argument can be made that it would keep evolving to match, but even in a reality warping contest they would have to stick with whatever level of feats either has been seen to pull off. So chances are the fight would go something like this.

/insert lots of yelling and explosions as both bots start from standard size and power up to exceed the other.

/coop "Ok you psycho bastard, take THIS world destroying blast!!!" /hits THE BUTTON

/simon "WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK I AM!!!!!!!!!!" /gurren laggen swells into immensity, engulfing the milky way then even further. There is a tiny flea speck blip on the bottom of its little toe

/coop "Ooooh heck." /squash

To befair, I did specifically state that it'd be a match up between regular Gurren Lagann and Megas. Gurren and Lagann, not the Arc Gurren, which isa space ship thatGurrn Lagann turned intoa Giant Robot that it itself pilots, nor Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann, the same done with a Moon Sized Warship that needs fifteen other pilots, and most certainly not Tengen Toppa Guren Lagann or Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, which strictly speaking are only possible in the Super Siral Pocket Universe that they fought the Anti-Spiral King in and aren't technically Mecha.

Just the Basic two mecha combo. They're roughly the same size, so it should be a fair fight.

[McNum]

Would splitting off Lagann be a winning move for Gurren-Lagann? Could it take over Megas? And if it did, what would a combined Megas-Lagann be like? Other than apocalyptic and similar words.

I mean Megas is very conveniently missing a head.

[Celestia]

Would splitting off Lagann be a winning move for Gurren-Lagann? Could it take over Megas? And if it did, what would a combined Megas-Lagann be like? Other than apocalyptic and similar words.

I mean Megas is very conveniently missing a head.

Lagaan can explicitly combine with any machine.

[Rater202]

I mean Megas is very conveniently missing a head.

Then what do you call the Hot-Rod sitting on its shoulders?

[Maryring]

Then what do you call the Hot-Rod sitting on its shoulders?

The most souped up car in the history of forever?

[McNum]

The most souped up car in the history of forever?

That's a good point. Is Megas a giant robot with a car for a head or a Hot-Rod with some very, very unusual after-market parts?

[Rater202]

According to the theme song, it's either a Giant Robot or a Giant Robot Car.

In addition to being the theme, the line "chicks did giant robots" was mentioned in the series proper in relation to Megas.

On the other hand, most of the time Coop takes the full Mecha out instead of just the car part(which does detach and can be used as a regular Car, when Separate, Megas can be operated using a DDR Pad and power gloves, but Coop, being rather fat, can't keep that up for long) including just waking it across the highway(and getting caught in traffic despite being able to fly) and even getting impounded once.

[McNum]

It's that time again. Time for a Death Battle!

Spoiler: Leon vs. Frank

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Eh, I'm okay with that. Leon winning it on speed an experience seems fair. Frank may be very creative, but Leon has pretty much seen it all at this point.

Spoiler: Next time...

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Doctor Strange and Doctor Fate. Oh yes, this could be good. I don't know who'll win, but I do know it's going to be a weird fight.

[Dragonus45]

Spoiler

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Who won doesn’t matter all that much to me. But the, “l’ve covered wars.” “I’ve fought in wars.” Exchange was perfect.

[Kato]

I wasn't very invested in the fight but it was fun enough.

Next week I consider more interesting but I'm afraid of some people getting... too passionate?

[Traab]

I wasn't very invested in the fight but it was fun enough.

Next week I consider more interesting but I'm afraid of some people getting... too passionate?

Meh, its comic books, I dont think anyone around here cares about those.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Spoiler: Next Time

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My familiarity with Fate is from Young Justice, can the mainline Fate be knocked back out of the host readily? Strange doesn't stop being Sorceror Supreme ever, but Fate is only Nabuu when under the influence.

[Lemmy]

Are Fate and Strange really popular enough for things to get passiomate? They have always felt like secondary characters that are supposedly really important in-universe, but quite forgettable to audiences...

[Rynjin]

The last time I read a Doctor Strange comic was because it was holding the new Iron Fist series hostage for the last couple of issues.

Didn't really endear me to the guy.

[Rater202]

Twenty to one odds that this end with them accidentally fusing into Doctor Strangefate.

I give it 20 and not 10 because making Strangefate from just those two would require Db to have failed to do research on Strangefate beyond the fact that he existed once.

(Doctor Strangefate, from Amalgam comics, is a merger of not only DC's Fate and Marvel's Strange, but also Marvel's Charles Xavier and possible DC's Baron Winters)

[Reddish Mage]

Are Fate and Strange really popular enough for things to get passiomate? They have always felt like secondary characters that are supposedly really important in-universe, but quite forgettable to audiences...

I don't see how you can say that after seeing Benedict Cumberbatch as Dr. Strange. Also, his comic counterpart is a cosmic power unto himself.

Doctor Fate is pretty powerful himself, but Fate is controlled by the helmet and the principles of order, I haven't seen him able to do the sorts of things Dr. Strange can get away with. Fate also has a pretty glaring weakness in that he can't dispell magic that's already in place. Dr. Strange can do exactly that with the comic-version Eye of Agamotto.

[Devonix]

Spoiler: Next Time

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My familiarity with Fate is from Young Justice, can the mainline Fate be knocked back out of the host readily? Strange doesn't stop being Sorceror Supreme ever, but Fate is only Nabuu when under the influence.

Spoiler

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The Helmet getting removed or the Host dieing is actually the worst possible outcome for Doctor Strange. The Host is actually a power limiter to keep him in check. Helmet comes off and Nabu goes full on Lord of Order

[Lemmy]

I don't see how you can say that after seeing Benedict Cumberbatch as Dr. Strange. (...)

The movie is pretty good and was quite successful, in no small part thanks to Cumberbatch's amazing acting, but I don't think a single film is enough to get people overly passionate about the characters... And it doesn't seem like either of these are particularly popular with the comic readers.

(...) Also, his comic counterpart is a cosmic power unto himself.

Doctor Fate is pretty powerful himself, but Fate is controlled by the helmet and the principles of order, I haven't seen him able to do the sorts of things Dr. Strange can get away with. Fate also has a pretty glaring weakness in that he can't dispell magic that's already in place. Dr. Strange can do exactly that with the comic-version Eye of Agamotto.

I don't dispute how powerful they are... Only that the characters are popular enough for the debate to get too heated. I'm sure they have a handful of die-hard fans he, but I doubt it'll be anywhere close to the most polemic fights.

Honestly, I have zero idea of how this battle could go. Like most magic-based characters, Dr.Fate and Dr.Strange are so inconsistent in what they can do, that I can't say anything solid about their powers. I never followed either character other than whatever appearances they made on titles of characters I actually cared about, so I don't know much of anything very specific about them other than their general schtick and a few details I got here and there... The last time I read *Dr.Strange* comic was... That story where he and Doom battle other sorcerers for the title of Sorcerer Supreme. And I don't think I've ever read a Dr.Fate title.

[Reddish Mage]

I don't dispute how powerful they are... Only that the characters are popular enough for the debate to get too heated. I'm sure they have a handful of die-hard fans he, but I doubt it'll be anywhere close to the most polemic fights.

If you want a polemic I'm just wrapping up watching all of Dragon Ball Z Kai and can add some tidbits to various character's abilities. Nothing that really changes the info mix, although I now have more specific evidence that power levels are what they can do is really inconsistent. Babidi measures Vegeta's Super Saiyan the ship at "3,000 killis" which Dabra says "200 to 300 is enough to destroy a planet." We know Vegeta can blow up a planet in base form way back in the beginning so that really makes no sense with the idea that Super Saiyan applies a 50x multiplier. Also Goku complains he can't handle a 10 ton weight in base form post-cell saga, despite doing a lot of stuff indicating he can lift far more than that.

Cell doesn't make his "I can destroy the Solar System" comment in the Japanese version at least but I recall it was in the dub in original Z when I watched it all those years ago. Buu is a terror to "the entire universe" but it is said he does this by "destroying planets" and we see him going one planet at a time (although he can do this rapidly).

The Buu saga says some very silly things about the heroes (and Buu) if you consider the implications of some of the moves we see Gotenks and Vegito pull off. Buu (and the former two characters) sometiems seem to be working with Loony-Tunes physics.

Honestly, I have zero idea of how this battle could go. Like most magic-based characters, Dr.Fate and Dr.Strange are so inconsistent in what they can do, that I can't say anything solid about their powers.

That's basically any reality warper. Also, per comments, its true about a lot of physical characters too.

In fact, I've argued that practically all Death Battle characters suffer from some level of inconsistent characterization about what they can and cannot do in the source material.

[Rater202]

Bit of Trivia on Cumberbatch's Strange: Unbelievable Gwenpool has Doctor Strange observe Gwenpool's memories and he's tickled pink that, in a universe where the Heroes of his world are fictional characters, he's got a major motion picture where he's played by Cumberbatch.

[Lemmy]

If you want a polemic I'm just wrapping up watching all of Dragon Ball Z Kai and can add some tidbits to various character's abilities. Nothing that really changes the info mix, although I now have more specific evidence that power levels are what they can do is really inconsistent. Babidi measures Vegeta's Super Saiyan the ship at "3,000 killis" which Dabra says "200 to 300 is enough to destroy a planet." We know Vegeta can blow up a planet in base form way back in the beginning so that really makes no sense with the idea that Super Saiyan applies a 50x multiplier. Also Goku complains he can't handle a 10 ton weight in base form post-cell saga, despite doing a lot of stuff indicating he can lift far more than that.

Cell doesn't make his "I can destroy the Solar System" comment in the Japanese version at least but I recall it was in the dub in original Z when I watched it all those years ago. Buu is a terror to "the entire universe" but it is said he does this by "destroying planets" and we see him going one planet at a time (although he can do this rapidly).

The Buu saga says some very silly things about the heroes (and Buu) if you consider the implications of some of the moves we see Gotenks and Vegito pull off. Buu (and the former two characters) sometiems seem to be working with Loony-Tunes physics.

Uh... Did you have any doubts about DBZ power levels being completely inconsistent? DB Super is particularly egregious in how inconsistent it is. And Buu does kinda have a comedy-cartoon thing going... I mean, his very first appearance is a pink-fat-blob in a genie (?) outfit.... And he's defeated the first time by... Becoming friends with Mr.Satan.

I still don't see why people find the "can destroy the solar system" claim so absurd... Cell is FAR more powerful than the Androids... Who are FAR more powerful than Trunks (when he first came to the past), who is FAR more powerful than Freeza (and his even stronger father), who could destroy planets without any effort even in his weakest form... Just like Vegeta could do before he even reached Earth.. "Destroying the whole solar system" is completely fitting to the power-scaling we see in DBZ.

It's like Superman flying (and supposedly fighting) at FTL speed, but then failing to evade lightning... Or scales of power above everyone else, but then gets beaten by Wonder Woman simply because she knows martial arts. He can bench-press a planet, but then struggles to lift much lighter objects... A couple years ago, Mr."Infinity Strength" is completely overpowered by Wraith! Hell! In a recent story, Superman is defeated by loud whistling noise! And not some magic/super-powerful whistle either, just Batman whistling.

So if you want to go "look how inconsistent this character is", be aware that two can play that game.

That's basically any reality warper. Also, per comments, its true about a lot of physical characters too.

In fact, I've argued that practically all Death Battle characters suffer from some level of inconsistent characterization about what they can and cannot do in the source material.

Magical-users are worse in that not only the intensity of their powers is completely inconsistent (like most other super heroes), but also what exactly they can do... Unlike, let's say, Order of the Stick, where we have general rules thanks to the author using D&D 3.5 as a guideline, magic-users from comics have no limitation other than whatever the writer wants at the moment and, occasionally, very few extremely vague limitations like "can't interfere with the natural order" or whatever... They can feel like characters from the Silver Age.

[Forum Explorer]

I still don't see why people find the "can destroy the solar system" claim so absurd... Cell is FAR more powerful than the Androids... Who are FAR more powerful than Trunks (when he first came to the past), who is FAR more powerful than Freeza (and his even stronger father), who could destroy planets without any effort even in his weakest form... Just like Vegeta could do before he even reached Earth.. "Destroying the whole solar system" is completely fitting to the power-scaling we see in DBZ.

Because physics basically. Also math.

Physics because, well how do you destroy a cloud? If you punch a cloud so hard it's dispersed, well have you actually destroyed it? Or did you just move it? The sun is like that, with the added benefit of it's own mass will pull itself back together. It's not a solid object that can be split apart. Adding energy to it just makes it hotter. And you can't grab it to pull it apart any more then you could fog. Plasma isn't a gas, but it has the consistency of gas.


Math because the sun is actually just that big. All of the Earth is nothing in comparison. We are more then a million times smaller then the sun. A while back Rater gave a power level of busting a planet 10 times greater bigger then our own. Here's the post with the conclusions I came to:

Didn't someone a few pages ago calculate how power levels are complete BS, and that they don't scale properly at all? I mean, sure Cell is stronger then Freeza. Freeza is a planet buster. (Also I wouldn't count that as casually blowing it up. Wait, he blew up Namek in his Final Form. Which one are you thinking of?) That means Cell is also a planet buster. But like I said way back, blowing up a sun is a different kettle that might very well be impossible. Besides the fact that the sun is a completely different structure then a planet operating under different physics to boot, the sun is 1.3 Million times bigger then the Earth.

So yeah, let's look at power levels for a second, as much as I absolutely despise the concept. Going from your math of Freza's first form, blowing up the sun would take approximately 68.9 Billion power (which is wrong because Stars aren't planets and would actually require much much more force to do anything to). According to this website, Super Perfect Cell only has 1.3 Billion power. Even Super Buu at his absolute maximum power is calculated to be 48 Billion. Which is still far below the low-balled estimated power level needed to destroy the Sun.

And this is the only post I'm doing on power levels. I really do hate dealing with them as it ruins my enjoyment of DBZ. So while you are free to keep talking about them, I'm not wasting any more energy on them.

Besides that, being far more powerful then the last villain doesn't mean you are multiplicative or exponentially more powerful. Let's say someone had 100 000 more power then you. You'll get stomped by them right? After all, the difference of a few thousand was more then enough for Goku to ragdoll Nappa around.

[HolyDraconus]

Explain the math of bench pressing a planet and lifting infinity.

[Forum Explorer]

Explain the math of bench pressing a planet and lifting infinity.

No. Because I'm not talking about that character.

[Mikemical]

Spoiler: On Leon VS Frank

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Predictable. Leon is a walking "rolling a nat 20 in the most critical roll of the session", not to mention that he has fought people and creatures using improvised weapons before. Asides from the few psychopaths that got creative(like the freeze gun clown), Frank's never had to deal with something like a bio-mass T-Rex, Gigantes, Tyrants, Lickers, hell, not even zombie dogs. Like Ada puts it in her report, "Leon's been through worse and always comes up smelling like roses." Curious that they mentioned Leon's body armor but never addressed it in the fight.

On Fate VS Strange, well, that really depends how DB wants to handle magic translating from one universe to the other.

[Lemmy]

Because physics basically. Also math.

Physics because, well how do you destroy a cloud? If you punch a cloud so hard it's dispersed, well have you actually destroyed it? Or did you just move it? The sun is like that, with the added benefit of it's own mass will pull itself back together. It's not a solid object that can be split apart. Adding energy to it just makes it hotter. And you can't grab it to pull it apart any more then you could fog. Plasma isn't a gas, but it has the consistency of gas.

With enough energy you can disperse it far enough... Maybe it reforms due to gravity, but at that point all planets that were around are Not that it matters either, since I'm pretty sure "punching hard enough to break the Sun" is something that DBZ physics not only probably allow, but also something perfectly in scale with the power displayed by the characters.

Because Math because the sun is actually just that big. All of the Earth is nothing in comparison. We are more then a million times smaller then the sun. A while back Rater gave a power level of busting a planet 10 times greater bigger then our own. Here's the post with the conclusions I came to:

Goku during the Cell games has an official power level of 4 trillions (without using the Kame-hame-ha). During the saiyan saga, Vegeta had a PL of mre 18k. And he could already destroy planets.

Vegeta destroys a planet before even arriving at Earth... And he doesn't put any effort into it either.

Even if we discount the filler episodes (not sure why, since we apparently count every Superman story under the Sun other than Silver Age Superman... And the filler is still canon in the anime. And the same version of the character, rather than an amalgamation of various alternate versions of Vegeta), Vegeta using his Galic Gun attack could destroy Earth (he explicitly aims it downwards to force Goku to take it, since simply evading would destroy Earth. Which is completely consistent with Piccolo/Muten Roshi being able to Destroy the moon despite being waaaaaaay weaker than Vegeta). So, being nice and assuming the Galic-Gun somehow doubles Vegeta's full power, and that by sheer coincidence, that's the bare minimum of energy needed to destroy a planet, that's a PL of 36k... Round it up to 40k and... It's Still less than 10% of Freeza's PL (550k) when he destroyed Planet Vegeta.... And less than 1/100,000 of Goku's power during the Cell games.

Brolly destroys a Galaxy when he's a baby with a power level of 10,000... Now, I'll be nice and assume he somehow used his super-saiyan multiplier (100x) (makes sense), so that gives him a PL of 1 million! Hell! Make it 100 million! It's still waaaaay weaker than the characters in the Cell saga... It's weaker than Final Form Freeza! Admittedly, Brolly didn't completely annihilate the galaxy, but he did break everything in it... And left enough residual energy for Goku to feel it years later.

Besides that, being far more powerful then the last villain doesn't mean you are multiplicative or exponentially more powerful. Let's say someone had 100 000 more power then you. You'll get stomped by them right? After all, the difference of a few thousand was more then enough for Goku to ragdoll Nappa around.

I don't know why you think that's a point in favor of your argument... We know the power levels in the Cell saga are billions of times greater than those of the Saiyan saga... If even a 10~25% increase in PL in numbers already makes that much of difference in power (to the point where the weaker guy can't react or even see what the stronger one does), imagine what a difference of millions means! Or one of billions!

[Devonix]

I personally give this to Doctor Fate. Strange is powerful, but a lot of his power comes from preperation. Caught off guard he doesn't have access to a lot of stuff.