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  1. - Top - End - #241
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Goku during the Cell games has an official power level of 4 trillions (without using the Kame-hame-ha). During the saiyan saga, Vegeta had a PL of mre 18k. And he could already destroy planets.
    Where the heck did that official number come from?


    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Brolly destroys a Galaxy when he's a baby with a power level of 10,000... Now, I'll be nice and assume he somehow used his super-saiyan multiplier (100x) (makes sense), so that gives him a PL of 1 million! Hell! Make it 100 million! It's still waaaaay weaker than the characters in the Cell saga... It's weaker than Final Form Freeza! Admittedly, Brolly didn't completely annihilate the galaxy, but he did break everything in it... And left enough residual energy for Goku to feel it years later.
    May I recall we got on this conversation because I posted evidence that the numbers in Dragon Ball Z itself were widely inconsistent.

    Now you want to bring in Broly and argue from his powerlevel in a non-canon movie and extrapolate linearly from what the movie says he can do with a power level of 10,000 (which no one else with that meager power level can apparently do).

    The very fact that powerlevels go bonkers during Frieza and Cell Saga shows they are non-linear. In the real fight, if you fight someone twice as strong or fast than you its an immediate curb stomp. In Dragon Ball you have expotential differences being made up all the time. Our much weaker fighters every so often come in and make a temporary contribution.

    How the heck does Super Saiyan Goku get hurt by a rock casually thrown by Krillin (while they are fishing during the prelude to Cell Games) yet not get utterly destroyed the moment he lets his guard down and a real blow land?

    How can post-Cell Games base-form Goku struggle with a 10 ton weight? He has handled far more than that when he was gravity training let alone by having mountains dropped on him.

    The numbers make no sense, have never made any sense and it really makes no sense that Broly can destroy an entire galaxy while Buu is limited to one planet at a time.
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  2. - Top - End - #242
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Can we not effing do this again?! Or at least go back and read the last twenty pages on the subject before you go down that road again..


    I'm not deeply familiar with Strange or Fate. From my limited knowledge, I think Fate has more raw power, being a god and all and way more experience but Strange is.. Well, not wiser but more creative? Yeah, he can also just push out crazy power feats but it's unlikely they'll not refer to such things as the end of his movie to showcase his strengths. I guess my uninformed, biased opinion leans towards Stephen but I'm happy with either outcome as of now.
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  3. - Top - End - #243
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    I personally give this to Doctor Fate. Strange is powerful, but a lot of his power comes from preperation. Caught off guard he doesn't have access to a lot of stuff.
    Is it? He always seems to pull some random spell out of his ass... Then again, so does doctor fate for that matter... And Zatana... And Illyana... And pretty much every toher magic-user hero.

    I honestly curious about this match, because I sincerely have no idea of how it could go. And I want to see what kind of feats these guys pulled and what sort of logic and calculations DB uses.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2018-05-24 at 11:46 AM.
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  4. - Top - End - #244
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Where the heck did that official number come from?
    Bunch of Shonen Jumps, character guides and articles over the years. I had to dig around the internet a little to find number that were not just some random person's calculations, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    How the heck does Super Saiyan Goku get hurt by a rock casually thrown by Krillin (while they are fishing during the prelude to Cell Games) yet not get utterly destroyed the moment he lets his guard down and a real blow land?
    "Rule of Funny". DBZ has its moments of cartoon physics... Specially with the more comedy-inclined characters (usually Goku and Krillin). I'm pretty sure there are scenas of Bulma of all people hurting Z-warriors with slaps and punches. Because it's funny. Let's not forget DB started as a comedy/adventure series and then gradually progressed into the kung-fu battle shonen series we know today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    How can post-Cell Games base-form Goku struggle with a 10 ton weight? He has handled far more than that when he was gravity training let alone by having mountains dropped on him.
    Hey, I won't dispute that DB numbers (specially DB Super's) make no sense. All I said is that they're not the only numbers that make no sense... Superman's "I can move Faster-Than-Light but not Faster-Than-Lightning is an example... Or Flash's... Well... Everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    The numbers make no sense, have never made any sense and it really makes no sense that Broly can destroy an entire galaxy while Buu is limited to one planet at a time.
    Huh? I think in that one moment Brolly used his full Super Saiyan power for just a moment (which would be about 1 million)... That actually fits the story, since 10k isn't much even for the saiyans at the time, just absurdly high for a just-born baby. Buu was "limited" to one planet at a time because he prefered to destroy them one at a time. He wasn't destroying stuff because he wanted to clear the galaxy or something. He simply enjoyed destroying stuff. Destroying planets he can't even see probably isn't as funny... And destroying all of them at the same time would end his fun.

    Buu also isn't the exactly known for his foresight and rationale. He just flies around blasting whatever he wants.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2018-05-24 at 11:46 AM.
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Is it? He always seems to pull some random spell out of his ass... Then again, so does doctor fate for that matter... And Zatana... And Illyana... And pretty much every toher magic-user hero.

    I honestly curious about this match, because I sincerely have no idea of how it could go. And I want to see what kind of feats these guys pulled and what sort of logic and calculations DB uses.
    Fate vs strange is kind of a magic version of Superman vs Batman.

    Being doctor fate dumps all of this knowledge and power into your body ontop of whatever you already know and have. You don't need to go and research a spell or look up an incantation or study an enemy. The knowledge of the universe just gets dumped into your mind. And your body gets boosted to natural super human levels without needing protection spells.


    Doctor strange by contrast is always studying and researching. Making pacts with demons. Seeking out ancient text. Now strange is amazingly powerful and can contend with fate. It's just that a lot of his big stuff requires prep.

  6. - Top - End - #246
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    With enough energy you can disperse it far enough... Maybe it reforms due to gravity, but at that point all planets that were around are Not that it matters either, since I'm pretty sure "punching hard enough to break the Sun" is something that DBZ physics not only probably allow, but also something perfectly in scale with the power displayed by the characters.

    Goku during the Cell games has an official power level of 4 trillions (without using the Kame-hame-ha). During the saiyan saga, Vegeta had a PL of mre 18k. And he could already destroy planets.

    Vegeta destroys a planet before even arriving at Earth... And he doesn't put any effort into it either.

    Even if we discount the filler episodes (not sure why, since we apparently count every Superman story under the Sun other than Silver Age Superman... And the filler is still canon in the anime. And the same version of the character, rather than an amalgamation of various alternate versions of Vegeta), Vegeta using his Galic Gun attack could destroy Earth (he explicitly aims it downwards to force Goku to take it, since simply evading would destroy Earth. Which is completely consistent with Piccolo/Muten Roshi being able to Destroy the moon despite being waaaaaaay weaker than Vegeta). So, being nice and assuming the Galic-Gun somehow doubles Vegeta's full power, and that by sheer coincidence, that's the bare minimum of energy needed to destroy a planet, that's a PL of 36k... Round it up to 40k and... It's Still less than 10% of Freeza's PL (550k) when he destroyed Planet Vegeta.... And less than 1/100,000 of Goku's power during the Cell games.

    Brolly destroys a Galaxy when he's a baby with a power level of 10,000... Now, I'll be nice and assume he somehow used his super-saiyan multiplier (100x) (makes sense), so that gives him a PL of 1 million! Hell! Make it 100 million! It's still waaaaay weaker than the characters in the Cell saga... It's weaker than Final Form Freeza! Admittedly, Brolly didn't completely annihilate the galaxy, but he did break everything in it... And left enough residual energy for Goku to feel it years later.

    I don't know why you think that's a point in favor of your argument... We know the power levels in the Cell saga are billions of times greater than those of the Saiyan saga... If even a 10~25% increase in PL in numbers already makes that much of difference in power (to the point where the weaker guy can't react or even see what the stronger one does), imagine what a difference of millions means! Or one of billions!
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    Sure, but how? No matter how hard I punch a cloud, it's not leaving the atmosphere. Also I'm pretty sure DBZ has had anyone who touches the sun be destroyed.

    I discount filler because it gets discounted by, well everything else in DBZ. By everything else I'm talking about the manga, DBZ Kai, stuff like that. And again, I'm not talking about Superman, though I'd say it's harder to do with Superman because the comics are an absolute mess. The is no order at all to what they are doing.

    Hey if you want to discount that guys calculations, that's your prerogative. Just like it's mine to believe him over you.

    As for me, well I discount 100% of the information out of those extra things and interviews and the like. Because as Reddish Mage already pointed out, Power levels are clearly BS. The exact number, all the calculations and crap? It's pointless. It has no impact on the story. I'd argue it has a negative impact on the story. And as far as I'm aware, the whole concept of power levels lasted for like two arcs. The Sayains, and the Freeza arc. Before that it was never mentioned. After that it was never mentioned (I think and not counting Movies).

    And yeah, I prefer logic and common sense over character boasting. If someone can destroy the sun, then show me that. If they can't, and there is no evidence to suggest that they can. Then I'm going to consider it boasting.
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  7. - Top - End - #247
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    I mean, it's not just hard punching, there's clearly some kind of metaphysical oomph to it as well, or there wouldn't be shockwaves strong enough to destroy the universe or screams loud enough to rip holes out of a pocket dimension.

    You're basically arguing "it doesn't seem physically possible" about a series whose author is not a scientist and gives zero ****s about any physics based plausibility in his series. It's silly.

  8. - Top - End - #248
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    The movie is pretty good and was quite successful, in no small part thanks to Cumberbatch's amazing acting, but I don't think a single film is enough to get people overly passionate about the characters... And it doesn't seem like either of these are particularly popular with the comic readers.
    At least two films - Dr. Strange is also one of the characters with the most screen time and narrative focus in Infinity War, which was fairly successful and had a pretty good number of viewers. He also shows up incidentally in at least one more movie, being a bit character in Thor: Ragnarok.

    I've only seen about a quarter of the MCU movies (if that), so I can't really comment on the upper bound.
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  9. - Top - End - #249
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    in no small part thanks to Cumberbatch's amazing acting
    Any reptilian pretending to be human is amazing acting.
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  10. - Top - End - #250
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
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    Sure, but how? No matter how hard I punch a cloud, it's not leaving the atmosphere. Also I'm pretty sure DBZ has had anyone who touches the sun be destroyed.

    I discount filler because it gets discounted by, well everything else in DBZ. By everything else I'm talking about the manga, DBZ Kai, stuff like that. And again, I'm not talking about Superman, though I'd say it's harder to do with Superman because the comics are an absolute mess. The is no order at all to what they are doing.

    Hey if you want to discount that guys calculations, that's your prerogative. Just like it's mine to believe him over you.

    As for me, well I discount 100% of the information out of those extra things and interviews and the like. Because as Reddish Mage already pointed out, Power levels are clearly BS. The exact number, all the calculations and crap? It's pointless. It has no impact on the story. I'd argue it has a negative impact on the story. And as far as I'm aware, the whole concept of power levels lasted for like two arcs. The Sayains, and the Freeza arc. Before that it was never mentioned. After that it was never mentioned (I think and not counting Movies).

    And yeah, I prefer logic and common sense over character boasting. If someone can destroy the sun, then show me that. If they can't, and there is no evidence to suggest that they can. Then I'm going to consider it boasting.
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    An impact strong enough can disperse non-solid matter away. An impact or explosion with enough force could theoretically accelerate molecules fast enough to leave the gravitational pull of whatever celestial bodies they find themselves on.

    You keep saying "Power levels are BS"... Have you ever watched DBZ? In 99% of the fights, the winner is the guy with the highest power level! What the show (and its characters) tell us is that power level isn't all that matters. But even a nigh-immortal super-being with unlimited stamina, absurd toughness, amazing regenerative powers and the the techniques of nearly all main characters in the series still lost to a 12-yo because that 12-yo had a higher PL.

    And while characters don't mention "power levels" after the Freeza saga, they still mention "power" all the time. You can assume the characters were just boasting... But then you gotta assume everything that isn't explicitly shown is just boasting... Like "infinity pages" and Specter "weighting as much as eternity". What annoys me in these discussions is how the level of scrutiny for what should and should not be considered is completely different for each side...

    "Can destroy the solar planet" is apparently too much, even if it completely fits the power scaling of the show... But "has infinity strength" is acceptable, even though it goes against everything shown in comics, movies and shows... Because... He lifted a magic book that supposedly has infinity pages (according to Superman himself and no one else).
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    Fate vs strange is kind of a magic version of Superman vs Batman.

    Being doctor fate dumps all of this knowledge and power into your body ontop of whatever you already know and have. You don't need to go and research a spell or look up an incantation or study an enemy. The knowledge of the universe just gets dumped into your mind. And your body gets boosted to natural super human levels without needing protection spells.

    Doctor strange by contrast is always studying and researching. Making pacts with demons. Seeking out ancient text. Now strange is amazingly powerful and can contend with fate. It's just that a lot of his big stuff requires prep.
    I'll believe you when you say that Fate is more powerful because I know next to nothing about the details of each character (and honestly... I don't care much about either), but isn't Dr.Strange capable of summoning the powers of Agamotto and the two other... Whatever they are... In an emergency, but never does it because summoning them is a really, really serious business (reality-breaking serious) or something? I think at one point he channeled the powers of Shumma Gorath as well... I'm not sure... I used to read mroe Marvel comics than DC comics when I was a kid, so I've had slightly more contact with Dr.Strange.
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    I'll believe you when you say that Fate is more powerful because I know next to nothing about the details of each character (and honestly... I don't care much about either), but isn't Dr.Strange capable of summoning the powers of Agamotto and the two other... Whatever they are... In an emergency, but never does it because summoning them is a really, really serious business (reality-breaking serious) or something? I think at one point he channeled the powers of Shumma Gorath as well... I'm not sure... I used to read mroe Marvel comics than DC comics when I was a kid, so I've had slightly more contact with Dr.Strange.
    Oh Strange is 100 percent capable of tangling with Fate. That's the best part of this match. They're so very close. Fate simply has the advantage in Raw power though. since he's not stuck with a regular human body to worry about. Strange can channel the power of greater beings such as Cytorak or Shuma Gorath. But there's a difference between channeling the power of one of those beings. And Fate actually BEING one of those beings.

    There's a reason why the JSA was one of the most broken teams of superheroes ever. It's a team that has had Superman, Doctor Fate, the Specter and Jonny Thunder, all on one team together.

    You know one thing that would have been crazy. The Specter has at one point actually been Doctor Fate. So what if we had the Specter as the Doctor fate used in this fight.

    For reference, Jonny Thunder's power is that he has as his partner " Thunderbolt " Thunderbolt is a 5D imp the same as mxyzptlk.

    Yeah The JSA has had some Broken rosters.
    Last edited by Devonix; 2018-05-24 at 06:49 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #253
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
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    An impact strong enough can disperse non-solid matter away. An impact or explosion with enough force could theoretically accelerate molecules fast enough to leave the gravitational pull of whatever celestial bodies they find themselves on.

    You keep saying "Power levels are BS"... Have you ever watched DBZ? In 99% of the fights, the winner is the guy with the highest power level! What the show (and its characters) tell us is that power level isn't all that matters. But even a nigh-immortal super-being with unlimited stamina, absurd toughness, amazing regenerative powers and the the techniques of nearly all main characters in the series still lost to a 12-yo because that 12-yo had a higher PL.

    And while characters don't mention "power levels" after the Freeza saga, they still mention "power" all the time. You can assume the characters were just boasting... But then you gotta assume everything that isn't explicitly shown is just boasting... Like "infinity pages" and Specter "weighting as much as eternity". What annoys me in these discussions is how the level of scrutiny for what should and should not be considered is completely different for each side...

    "Can destroy the solar planet" is apparently too much, even if it completely fits the power scaling of the show... But "has infinity strength" is acceptable, even though it goes against everything shown in comics, movies and shows... Because... He lifted a magic book that supposedly has infinity pages (according to Superman himself and no one else).
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    An impact against what?

    Yeah, usually the stronger guy wins. I'm not arguing that point. But power levels are all over the map. Like we're given a number, but it doesn't make any sense. You can't actually apply that number to a scale or anything. It's why I think they dropped them. It was just a really dumb way to say that this guy is stronger then that guy and that putting a number to it was just kinda dull.

    You know what I hate the most about Superman vs Goku? I can't talk about DBZ without people think I'm talking about Superman. How about we pretend we're talking about Kirby vs Buu instead? Or Vegeta vs Shadow. But please stop bringing up Superman. I hate the character, and have no interest in trying to defend him. Ever.

    Anyways, I don't think it fits in the power scaling of the show because the stakes pretty much stay at 'save whatever planet they are on'. Buu isn't presented as a galactic threat, he's a galactic scourge, destroying one planet at a time, again and again. Not dozens of solar systems, despite being much more powerful then Cell.



    Not much discussion about this last battle huh? But I suppose it's not a surprise the trained military solider who regularly fights giant monsters trumps the reporter whose greatest opponent was, well an ex-solider I think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    An impact against what?
    You know how nuclear bombs "push" all the air away and create a vacuum... Something like that. If it has matter, it can be affected by physical force. Besides, it's the kind of nonsensical stuff that they do all the time in DBZ, like literally holding energy, as you can see here (and in a million other scenes as well). Or Goku (and Freeza) somehow resisting a power that erases anything from existence... Or Goku moving even when time is stopped. Or... You know... He teleporting around.

    DBZ doesn't give a **** about physics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Yeah, usually the stronger guy wins. I'm not arguing that point. But power levels are all over the map. Like we're given a number, but it doesn't make any sense. You can't actually apply that number to a scale or anything. It's why I think they dropped them. It was just a really dumb way to say that this guy is stronger then that guy and that putting a number to it was just kinda dull.
    Possibly. Doesn't change the fact that those numbers exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    You know what I hate the most about Superman vs Goku? I can't talk about DBZ without people think I'm talking about Superman. How about we pretend we're talking about Kirby vs Buu instead? Or Vegeta vs Shadow. But please stop bringing up Superman. I hate the character, and have no interest in trying to defend him. Ever.
    Kirby vs Buu is even more ridiculous. It's just "does cartoon physics beat non-cartoon physics?". The answer is always yes, even if Kirby is obviously far more limited than his one-shot feats would lead as to believe... By DB's logic Tom & Jerry can defeat anyone, because they're literally immortal (even when they die, they come back completely fine the next episode) and can pull super-human stunts when it's funny. It's a stupid way to analyze things, but that's how they do it... And Vegeta vs Shadow is such a dumb match up I completely forgot it happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Anyways, I don't think it fits in the power scaling of the show because the stakes pretty much stay at 'save whatever planet they are on'. Buu isn't presented as a galactic threat, he's a galactic scourge, destroying one planet at a time, again and again. Not dozens of solar systems, despite being much more powerful then Cell.
    Because he didn't, not because he can't. He just flies around destroying planets because that's more fun to him than destroying everything at once. And the reason the story is always about the fate of Earth is because that's what Goku cares about. He isn't part of the galactic police. He's just a guy who likes martial arts. He fights to protect his friends and his planet because he cares about them. Sure, he's good-natured, merciful and always happy to help people in danger, but he's no hero of justice (as Goku himself has said).
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
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    An impact strong enough can disperse non-solid matter away. An impact or explosion with enough force could theoretically accelerate molecules fast enough to leave the gravitational pull of whatever celestial bodies they find themselves on.

    You keep saying "Power levels are BS"... Have you ever watched DBZ? In 99% of the fights, the winner is the guy with the highest power level! What the show (and its characters) tell us is that power level isn't all that matters. But even a nigh-immortal super-being with unlimited stamina, absurd toughness, amazing regenerative powers and the the techniques of nearly all main characters in the series still lost to a 12-yo because that 12-yo had a higher PL.

    And while characters don't mention "power levels" after the Freeza saga, they still mention "power" all the time. You can assume the characters were just boasting... But then you gotta assume everything that isn't explicitly shown is just boasting... Like "infinity pages" and Specter "weighting as much as eternity". What annoys me in these discussions is how the level of scrutiny for what should and should not be considered is completely different for each side...

    "Can destroy the solar planet" is apparently too much, even if it completely fits the power scaling of the show... But "has infinity strength" is acceptable, even though it goes against everything shown in comics, movies and shows... Because... He lifted a magic book that supposedly has infinity pages (according to Superman himself and no one else).
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    They are bull**** in the sense that the numbers don't have any real relations to abilities. Higher power level= victory yes but the idea that you can use them for calculations (they can do that at power level x so when you multiply it by 100 they can do 100 times as much!) has little grounding in the relative progression of feats and power levels.

    Question if a character had for instance the proportional strength of a spider would you go by calculations based on that or feats displayed?
    Last edited by Ibrinar; 2018-05-25 at 07:20 AM.

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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    As not much of a DC nerd.. How much is Fate dependent on his host? Would one incarnation be significantly stronger than another? (also I always assumed he was unable to manifest without a body, but it seems from comments so far he'd be even more powerful )
    Since DB likes to go for concrete impressive events and I can't think of any details from either.. Can someone help me out?


    Btw, kudos to the dbz discussion, I personally really appreciate the spoilers
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kato View Post
    As not much of a DC nerd.. How much is Fate dependent on his host? Would one incarnation be significantly stronger than another? (also I always assumed he was unable to manifest without a body, but it seems from comments so far he'd be even more powerful )
    Since DB likes to go for concrete impressive events and I can't think of any details from either.. Can someone help me out?


    Btw, kudos to the dbz discussion, I personally really appreciate the spoilers
    Fate and The Specter are similar to how the Phoenix works. You have a person who can be the host and wield their power... but then you have things like Unbound Fate, Unbound Specter and Unbound Phoenix which are just those entities traveling around in their true forms without hosts.

    With very few instances Fate without a host is far far more powerful.
    Last edited by Devonix; 2018-05-25 at 07:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Spoiler: DBZ Discussion
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    An impact strong enough can disperse non-solid matter away. An impact or explosion with enough force could theoretically accelerate molecules fast enough to leave the gravitational pull of whatever celestial bodies they find themselves on.

    "Can destroy the solar planet" is apparently too much, even if it completely fits the power scaling of the show... But "has infinity strength" is acceptable, even though it goes against everything shown in comics, movies and shows... Because... He lifted a magic book that supposedly has infinity pages (according to Superman himself and no one else).
    Spoiler: Dragonball (also Superman now apparently)
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    I find it cute you’re are talking about “molecules” and the “solar planet.”

    I would like to note the science discussion on how to destroy a planet or a star is rather remote from how its described in world.

    Frieza doesn’t generate a force that simply blows the planet away. Instead he drops a sphere that burrows into the planet (causing explosions, quakes, and shocks along the way) and “destroys the core.” Somehow this causes a chain reaction leading to an explosion of the entire planet like it was the Death Star Starkiller Base.

    I think this is the first comparison to Superman we have this round. I’d really like to keep the discussion to just what a Dragon Ball’s character’s strength is.

    The idea that it is contradictory should be fairly agreeable, since all these Death Battle characters are contradictory. The question then is how we resolve the contradictions.

    Death Battle recently articulated a rule that they will use all official material so long as it doesn’t contradict the canon. That leaves open the possibility that Dragon Ball characters are galaxy busters...but only if we treat a one-off by a movie villain (whose power level apparently has been outclassed by the millions or something) as informative.

    Other than that, destruction on a galactic or universal scale has been reserved for Zen-O, maybe Zamasu when he becomes transcendent (i’m not exactly clear how far he stretches out), and its claimed to be possible the Gods of Destruction when they battle each other (or a Super Saiyan God).

    I’m willing to accept claims as evidence but I want to examine the evidence. I find Cell’s claim potentially credible but I want to verify it comes from the manga (I don’t think strength levels like that should rest on anime-only throwaway lines). I find Broly’s galaxy-level attack (regardless of how much of the galaxy actually got destroyed) far beyond the range of anything. Also it contradicts Cells estimation of his own powers limits in the anime (at least). If Cell can destroy the galaxy, he should just say so.


    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    Fate and The Specter are similar to how the Phoenix works. You have a person who can be the host and wield their power... but then you have things like Unbound Fate, Unbound Specter and Unbound Phoenix which are just those entities traveling around in their true forms without hosts.

    With very few instances Fate without a host is far far more powerful.
    How often is Fate without a host, however? I think using Fate like that might be equivalent of using Doctor Strange when he is using some sort of one-off magic boost.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Spoiler: Dragonball (also Superman now apparently)
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    I find it cute you’re are talking about “molecules” and the “solar planet.”

    I would like to note the science discussion on how to destroy a planet or a star is rather remote from how its described in world.

    Frieza doesn’t generate a force that simply blows the planet away. Instead he drops a sphere that burrows into the planet (causing explosions, quakes, and shocks along the way) and “destroys the core.” Somehow this causes a chain reaction leading to an explosion of the entire planet like it was the Death Star Starkiller Base.

    I think this is the first comparison to Superman we have this round. I’d really like to keep the discussion to just what a Dragon Ball’s character’s strength is.

    The idea that it is contradictory should be fairly agreeable, since all these Death Battle characters are contradictory. The question then is how we resolve the contradictions.

    Death Battle recently articulated a rule that they will use all official material so long as it doesn’t contradict the canon. That leaves open the possibility that Dragon Ball characters are galaxy busters...but only if we treat a one-off by a movie villain (whose power level apparently has been outclassed by the millions or something) as informative.

    Other than that, destruction on a galactic or universal scale has been reserved for Zen-O, maybe Zamasu when he becomes transcendent (i’m not exactly clear how far he stretches out), and its claimed to be possible the Gods of Destruction when they battle each other (or a Super Saiyan God).

    I’m willing to accept claims as evidence but I want to examine the evidence. I find Cell’s claim potentially credible but I want to verify it comes from the manga (I don’t think strength levels like that should rest on anime-only throwaway lines). I find Broly’s galaxy-level attack (regardless of how much of the galaxy actually got destroyed) far beyond the range of anything. Also it contradicts Cells estimation of his own powers limits in the anime (at least). If Cell can destroy the galaxy, he should just say so.




    How often is Fate without a host, however? I think using Fate like that might be equivalent of using Doctor Strange when he is using some sort of one-off magic boost.
    Fate's been without a host quite often. Either after a host dies or goes on to do something else. He's had many many fights as just Lord of Order Nabu.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Spoiler: Dragonball (also Superman now apparently)
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    I find it cute you’re are talking about “molecules” and the “solar planet.”

    I would like to note the science discussion on how to destroy a planet or a star is rather remote from how its described in world.

    Frieza doesn’t generate a force that simply blows the planet away. Instead he drops a sphere that burrows into the planet (causing explosions, quakes, and shocks along the way) and “destroys the core.” Somehow this causes a chain reaction leading to an explosion of the entire planet like it was the Death Star Starkiller Base.

    I think this is the first comparison to Superman we have this round. I’d really like to keep the discussion to just what a Dragon Ball’s character’s strength is.

    The idea that it is contradictory should be fairly agreeable, since all these Death Battle characters are contradictory. The question then is how we resolve the contradictions.

    Death Battle recently articulated a rule that they will use all official material so long as it doesn’t contradict the canon. That leaves open the possibility that Dragon Ball characters are galaxy busters...but only if we treat a one-off by a movie villain (whose power level apparently has been outclassed by the millions or something) as informative.

    Other than that, destruction on a galactic or universal scale has been reserved for Zen-O, maybe Zamasu when he becomes transcendent (i’m not exactly clear how far he stretches out), and its claimed to be possible the Gods of Destruction when they battle each other (or a Super Saiyan God).

    I’m willing to accept claims as evidence but I want to examine the evidence. I find Cell’s claim potentially credible but I want to verify it comes from the manga (I don’t think strength levels like that should rest on anime-only throwaway lines). I find Broly’s galaxy-level attack (regardless of how much of the galaxy actually got destroyed) far beyond the range of anything. Also it contradicts Cells estimation of his own powers limits in the anime (at least). If Cell can destroy the galaxy, he should just say so.
    Spoiler: DBZ Stuff
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    It wasn't a"chain reaction" as much as it was a dramatic take on the energy ball slowly exploding. The whole point of that scene is to show how powerful and cruel Freeza is. He creates a giant ball of energy that slowly incinerates everyone in its path (including Freeza's minions) until it finally explodes... And he does it with no effort at all. That wouldn't have nearly the same impact if it was some sort of "planet-specific destroyer" attack. Not that it matters, because we know that Vegeta could destroy planets before he even arrived at Earth... And even as an Oozaru he's still far weaker than Freeza in his weakest form.

    In DBS, the Shockwaves from Goku and Beerus punches are enough to shake the whole universe... And according to an ancient deity, the power was enough to even kill Goku and Beerus themselves... Luckily, the start to control their powers better after that (mostly because Goku soon loses his God powers.


    Anyway... Even I'm getting tired of this discussion... Honestly I actually would like to see Thor vs Shazam or Black Adam. Thor vs WW felt like it had is results decided before they even started their research. No way they would let WW lose that fight at that point in time... It's not as bad as WW vs Rogue, where Rogue even though absorbing similarly powerful opponent was too much for Rogue in the past (including Thor, who according to DB, is weaker than WW).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Spoiler: DBZ Stuff
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    It wasn't a"chain reaction" as much as it was a dramatic take on the energy ball slowly exploding. The whole point of that scene is to show how powerful and cruel Freeza is. He creates a giant ball of energy that slowly incinerates everyone in its path (including Freeza's minions) until it finally explodes... And he does it with no effort at all. That wouldn't have nearly the same impact if it was some sort of "planet-specific destroyer" attack. Not that it matters, because we know that Vegeta could destroy planets before he even arrived at Earth... And even as an Oozaru he's still far weaker than Freeza in his weakest form.

    In DBS, the Shockwaves from Goku and Beerus punches are enough to shake the whole universe... And according to an ancient deity, the power was enough to even kill Goku and Beerus themselves... Luckily, the start to control their powers better after that (mostly because Goku soon loses his God powers.


    Anyway... Even I'm getting tired of this discussion... Honestly I actually would like to see Thor vs Shazam or Black Adam. Thor vs WW felt like it had is results decided before they even started their research. No way they would let WW lose that fight at that point in time... It's not as bad as WW vs Rogue, where Rogue even though absorbing similarly powerful opponent was too much for Rogue in the past (including Thor, who according to DB, is weaker than WW).
    I found that one really strange. Thor should win a fight against Wonder Woman. He's got far higher tier feats. And far better ranged attacks as well.

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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    Spoiler: DBZ Stuff
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    It wasn't a"chain reaction" as much as it was a dramatic take on the energy ball slowly exploding. The whole point of that scene is to show how powerful and cruel Freeza is. He creates a giant ball of energy that slowly incinerates everyone in its path (including Freeza's minions) until it finally explodes... And he does it with no effort at all. That wouldn't have nearly the same impact if it was some sort of "planet-specific destroyer" attack. Not that it matters, because we know that Vegeta could destroy planets before he even arrived at Earth... And even as an Oozaru he's still far weaker than Freeza in his weakest form.

    In DBS, the Shockwaves from Goku and Beerus punches are enough to shake the whole universe... And according to an ancient deity, the power was enough to even kill Goku and Beerus themselves... Luckily, the start to control their powers better after that (mostly because Goku soon loses his God powers.


    Anyway... Even I'm getting tired of this discussion... Honestly I actually would like to see Thor vs Shazam or Black Adam. Thor vs WW felt like it had is results decided before they even started their research. No way they would let WW lose that fight at that point in time... It's not as bad as WW vs Rogue, where Rogue even though absorbing similarly powerful opponent was too much for Rogue in the past (including Thor, who according to DB, is weaker than WW).
    Honestly, had it not included wonder womans speed feats in the run down with rogue, I wouldnt have minded the outcome that much, but it brings up the old argument of how speed, properly utilized in a ruthless manner (such as in a no inhibitions fight to the death) is a game breaker in battle. A speed blitzing, out for blood wonder woman, should have insta gibbed rogue and lost about as much energy as it takes her to order her morning coffee in the process. As for more thor fights, meh, its getting kinda crowded now that he has fought raiden and wonder woman. I mean sure, the more famous characters tend to gather lots of what if opponents to run through but death battle doesnt often bring em back for a second shot, and I dont think they ever do three.
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    Huh... I actually forgot Thor had fought Raiden... I still want to see Shazam in a cool, reasonably-balanced fight. Or Black Adam, for that matter. Maybe he could fight Ms.Marvel for the title of "Captain Marvel"!

    Since they are using RE characters, they could make RE5 Matrix-esque Wesker fight someone like... Iron Fist? Spider-Man? I have no idea...

    Martian Man-hunter has cool superpowers. A fight with him could be fun. Vision is thematically fitting, although someone mentioned that MM is too far beyond what Vision can do.

    Hmmm... How about X-23 vs Scandal Savage. I think X-23 would win, but might still make for an interesting match.

    I wonder if they could do something interesting with Sun Wukong...
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    So, while bored at work I have been working on a few of these and procrastinating about posting them. Along the way I have pestered some Nasuverse experts, not even being sarcastic there I follow the setting well enough but these guys understand the nuts and bolts on a whole different level. As a longtime fan of FMA I feel I managed to parse out there stuff from there. I also made use of several feat compendiums alongside re watching both FMA series and Unlimited Blade Works. So lets see how this turns out.
    Ed vs Shirou

    Spoiler: Aclehmy and Magecraft
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    Alchemy is the main power of Full Metal Alchemist and is all about rebuilding the world around you through science. Sweet magical science. It usually requires the use of a drawn circle of some sort to dictate to the energy drawn from the earth. However that is not universal. The three basic steps as pulled from the fan wiki are thus.
    Comprehension - Understanding the inherent structure and properties of the atomic or molecular makeup of a particular material to be transmuted, including the flow and balance of potential and kinetic energy within.
    Deconstruction - Using energy to break down the physical structure of the identified material into a more malleable state so as to be easily reshaped into a new form.
    Reconstruction - Continuing the flow of energy so as to reform the material into a new shape.
    One of the things that makes Edward special is that he has a higher understanding of the science, allowing him to form circles without symbols using only his hands.


    Magecraft is weird. For starters it is not magic, in universe those are seperate things. The wiki has a fairly concise defention of the difference.
    It is the ability to bring about what is possible through science with supernatural means; although the process is considered a miracle, the end result is not. The limits of Magecraft have changed with time, as science evolved and Magic from the past became possible through science. There is no impossibility for Modern Magecraft within the rules of the world, and with enough effort and time spent studying the appropriate school, anything within the limits of the human intellect is possible. However, because Magecraft acts as the reenactment of preexisting Mysteries, it is impossible to use it to create new Mysteries; even with an infinite amount of research, there exists a "wall" that prevents the wisdom of humans from doing so in the current era. The realm past this "wall" is known as Magic.
    Mystery in the setting being something of a catch all term for supernatural. Really though, Shirou is so bad at actual magecraft that most of what magecraft is and is about doesn't even really apply to him anyways.

    Spoiler: Edward Breakdown
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    Power
    First of Edward is clearly carrying some big guns. Numerous times he transmutes some pretty hefty cannons and during the fight with Father he sends a fairly massive barrage down on him, and that is only the blasty stuff. Spikes through the organs is also a great alchemical in the series when it comes to grievous bodily harm. In general Ed makes amazing use of his alchemy and his high intellect to constantly work around proponents who outclass him him power and durability making frequent use of walls, pit traps, and other obstructions combined with some amazing speed feats dodging numerous attacks from enhanced chimera and homunculi and even was able to outpace scar once he got his norther automail, Scar already being fast enough to take out swaths of trained gunmen and soldiers before they could shoot. Ed is also a highly trained martial artists who can hold his own in the presence of some of the best fighters in the franchise. On the physical power front he also has several strong feats such as knocking trees over with a single punch or putting his fist through a wooden wall to grab someone.

    Durability
    His northern automail is also a whole other point of discussion, as he overcomes the inherent weakness of its lighter construction by mimicking Greed's Ultimate Shield and hardening outside with carbon giving his automail some amazing durability to survive multiple blows from Pride. However his fleshy bits are also fairly sturdy, as the best toughness feat I can work out was him getting kicked around by the natural form of Envy, which considering relative sizes should kill the average man outright. He definitely looked like he felt it though.



    All told Edward is a an all around full threat in just about situation with serious utility and the ability to control the pace and spacing of a fight down to the very landscape and the skills in hand to hand to back it up. Clearly a threat in any fight to the death.

    Spoiler: Shirou Breakdown
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    Powers
    So Shirou's janky powerset is likely going to take twice as much space to explain here. So Shirou is actually a garbage magus by in universe terms. He has almost no natural capacity for magic and actually spent his entire life doing it wrong anyways before the events of the series. However what he does have going for him is a unique combination of factors that cause his meager abilities to resonate with one another to create a frankly chilling amount of power. His Origin(similar concept to a true name) is Sword. He has no elemental affinities with any of the elements of magecraft either, which is another factor in his being garbage at it. Instead, his elemental affinity is also Sword. His powers mainly consist of Structural Grasp Magecraft which allows him to understand the inner working of just about any object as if he were looking at a blueprint of it and gain intuitive understanding of its workings, he also has some extra steps added on as a unique property of his projection maigic that allow him to be skilled in the use of the weapons as well. He also has reinforcement which allows him to analyze and make better anything he wants. From making swords sharper to making objects more durable to enhancing his eyes to let him see long distances and the like. His final ability is projection, an ability that allows Shirou to make something from nothing, because who needs equivalent exchange. The answer to the question is smart people, projected objects have an awful ratio of power versus the magical energy spent on them when used by normal people.

    Now, remember when I mentioned that his abilities had a sort of synergy with each other and his Origin and Element? Well this is where all that comes into play because they give Shirou a unique and rare form of magecraft so spectacular that is is almost real magic called a reality marble. A powerful ability that allows its user to take the local reality and simply replace it with their own internal realty. It is not something that can ever really be thought or learned and is rare and unique enough that having it would earn you a life time of being vivisected by the local wizard guild so they can try to work out the mechanics of it. Shirou's is known as Unlimited Blade Works, yes it is the same as the Archers from that series but the differences between those two characters is a whole nother section of this post, and it used to turbo charge Shirous powers. It is a steel forge where countless blades just sit around waiting to stab someone, very famous blades actually. As the special tracing process available to Shirou allows him to create legendary artifacts with their entire histories and powers intact. It also allows him to projects these blades into the real world through projection, firing them off from just around him or grabbing them from air as if they appeared from nowhere. This only works for swords and other bladed type weapons such as spears. He is as garbage as ever at doing any of this with armor or the like with the exception of Rho Aias, the legendary shield of Ajax which is less a shield and more a giant glowing impenetrable flower of light where each pedal is its own powerful fortress of s shield, which is still very difficult to use but is powerful enough to be worth the effort and is likely Shirou's greatest defense although its use could leave him drained if a powerful enough attack landed on it, and as a feat it has been shown to stop Gilgamesh's barrage of attacks and even stop Gae Bolg. He also learned swordsmanship at an astounding rate to be able to duel the likes of Kirie Kotomine in the Fate route and he is such a skilled archer as a result of his magecraft training that the only time he ever missed a bullseye was because he wanted to see what it was like.

    Durability

    As for non magecraft, wow that section was long, Shirou has some pretty amazing durability feats. Something lost in the translation from visual novel is the internal narration of Shirou describing the horrific and painful injuries he repeatedly sustains and still stays conscious for. Now a lot of how he survives all of the mangling is through Avalon which would only be active if Saber were here which would be breaking the rules. But even then through use of projecting layers of blades in place of armor over reinforced organs Shirou has repeatedly survived the people mauling him with how difficult he can be to harm.

    No you can't use Archers Feats

    This last section is just a quick breakdown of feat usage for Shirou since the Fate franchise is full of alt universes and timelines to the point where you can have the same character learning techniques from his future self wile that future self tries to engineer his own death. My personal opinion is that you can't just look at what Archer does and call it a day. Archer is a heroic spirit and servant which comes with a whole realm of power boosting and uniqueness. I don't want to spoil anything in Heavens Feel since that is still in the process of being adapted but it shows definitively that a heroic spirit is just beyond a human. I do however consider it fair game to look at feats from Shirou in other media as a gauge for what a post UBW Shirou looks like once he gets some proper practice in.

    So it looks like Shirou is also no slouch in a fight and packs a lot of ranged firepower. Looking like an interesting fight to say the least


    Spoiler: The Brawl
    Show

    So, the fight almost certainly would start as a result of Edward looking for Shirou as Shirou would be a prime target for holding a potential philosophers stone. Edward is also certainly the one in charge of the fight with the ability to use alchemy to control the battlefield. Shirou can fight at much longer distances and can use enhanced jumping to create that distance but Edward has a dozen ways to provide defense against Shirou's projectile swords and block vision with dust clouds or create traps. The infighting portion of this is where things get rough. Ed could certainly rush down Shirou but between reinforced organs and a blindingly fast reaction speed most attacks are likely to miss or fail to hit a killing blow, and Shirou's reinforced weaponry is likely on par with Ed's carbon powered northern mail if not stronger. Who wins is almost a toss up with me favoring Ed with two major factors being the deciding points for me.

    Does Alchemy work in a Reality Marble?


    A reality marble is honestly to specific and rare a phenomena and each is totally unique in its conception and creation so you can't really give a general answer. The question is really "Does Alchemy work in Unlimited Blade Works." Since as I covered above a reality marble is just replacing reality around you it would matter how close to the real world your internal world is, the biggest concern being that there would be no connection to the energy powering alchemy below the earth, followed by concerns of rebound from not correctly identifying what the surrounding materials would actually be. It would be 100% certain he could use it inside of Rider's marble since Iskandar is literally recreating a place from the real world. It should also work in UBW. Now this isn't because I think I think that UBW is close enough to the real world, but because it is literally the ultimate forge and a place of creation. If alchemy couldn't find something to work on there then I have no idea where it would ever find it.


    The Result


    Aaand none of that matters. Provided Shirou lives long enough to pull Unlimited Blade Works out the fight is over. His already fast attacks only grow faster from there as he no longer has to actually project the present swords and no amount of walls or defenses will overcome the sheer weight of fire Shirou has once the reality marble is active.

    Also of major concern is Shirou's ability to understand the working of Ed's automail arm and disassemble it through firepower, something he wouldn't even need UBW for. A real concern as it is the most consistent way to remove Ed from a fight in the series and one that Shirou is easily capable of.

    I do think that out of ten fights Ed would probably win three. He is perfectly capable of ending Shirou with a good shot, but the circumstances for that are tough to pull together.
    1. He needs to hit him with something totally unpredictable, hard to do since in the UBW route Shirou repeatedly blocks surprise attacks from Medusa and also dodges her attacks in the Fate route as well.
    2. It would need to hit him hard enough to break Rho Aias and... well I'll be blunt there isn't a single punch thrown in FMA that hits hard enough to knock even a single pedal off short of perhaps a god tier Father without being weakened by the reverse circle or Von Hoenhiem if he were to throw some really strong Philosophers Stone backed attack out.
    3. It would need to do is be an instant kill shot past the steel like organ defenses. Because Shirou tends to remain conscious through a lot of trauma and if he lives long enough to retaliate then Edward is done for.


    Finally in fighting style Edward is something of a trickster fighter, he often works on analyzing an opponents abilities and thinking his way around strong foes and retaliating to attacks rather then going for aggressive rush down when in a fight without prep time. That means more often then not Unlimited Blade Works is going to be summoned or Shirou traces and destroys the automail and that is the game. And of note is that all of this breakdown is before you take into account things like genuine magical artifacts and the like the Shirou can pull out.



    Lust vs Lancer - Pretty much also done but wasn't as much fun to write so I am procrastinating putting the notes togther. Soon

    Wrath vs Assasin - SOON™
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Honestly, had it not included wonder womans speed feats in the run down with rogue, I wouldnt have minded the outcome that much, but it brings up the old argument of how speed, properly utilized in a ruthless manner (such as in a no inhibitions fight to the death) is a game breaker in battle. A speed blitzing, out for blood wonder woman, should have insta gibbed rogue and lost about as much energy as it takes her to order her morning coffee in the process. As for more thor fights, meh, its getting kinda crowded now that he has fought raiden and wonder woman. I mean sure, the more famous characters tend to gather lots of what if opponents to run through but death battle doesnt often bring em back for a second shot, and I dont think they ever do three.
    They've done Batman three times (and they say the won't do him again unless they think of something "really awesome"). I don't see why Wonder Woman can't be the next to join that exclusive club.

    Death Battle removes the character's inhibition against killing, but doesn't change their fighting style. Wonder Woman isn't going to blitz her opponent. The only thing that changes is that, in the end move, they will totally kill the opponent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    It would have been awesome if the writers had put as much thought into it as you guys do.
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quite a few pages to read, just going to skip to the end like normal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reddish Mage View Post
    Now you want to bring in Broly and argue from his powerlevel in a non-canon movie and extrapolate linearly from what the movie says he can do with a power level of 10,000 (which no one else with that meager power level can apparently do).
    Broly was born with a power level of ten thousand but when the south galaxy gets finally being destroyed take place about thirty years later. He probably had a higher value by then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devonix View Post
    Fate vs strange is kind of a magic version of Superman vs Batman.
    It's more of a sorcerer vs wizard deal. Dr Fate doesn't actually cast spells most of the time, he just expends his personal power trying to draw out the Helmet of Date's powers. Dr Strange is a full on D&D wizard through.

    Fate's knowledge also isn't infinite, he actually accesses Nabu's knowledge (the sprite in the helm) or uses his technologically based Orb of Nabu which allows him to scry on the universe and it has some ability to predict the future. His necklace has a pocket dimension and renders him undetectable to magic while his cloak is some kind of force effect to block various things. But like most of DC's mainstream heroes he has severe weaknesses, most incarnations are powerless without the helm, he apparently has no real defense against gases, and his ability to dispel magical effects on the spot is fairly limited. Probably because he tanked his intelligence score and ranks in spellcraft & knowledge(arcana) in favor of his helm's bonuses.

    Like a D&D wizard through Strange is pretty much is the superior version of all of that through. The Eye of Agamotto has a wide range of powers including using it's own auto protections against physical or magical harm, it can block the mind gem's control too, and it can teleport people, and blast them, and dominate them, and so on. Strange's crystal ball, the Orb of Agamotto, also comes with it's own save-or-die and a true seeing effect. His cloak is almost impossible to destroy, but it also grants flight and is capable of independent action. And than Strange also has Boccob's white mage spellbook, the Book of the Vishanti, which contains every known spell or ritual that can counter or block something, including the infinite gem of time's temporal shenanigans. And Strange also has the Wand of Watoomb which is another blasting device but like the book it's also specialized at countering other magic and powers.

    They even fight like a D&D sorcerer and gestated wizard. Dr Fate, through sheer power, has stood against Spector and curbstombed his universe's version of Chaos. Dr Strange, through superior ability, has stood against the infinity gems and curbstombs people by summoning his universe's version of Chaos, and Law, merging with them to augment his own power, and then dealing with his opponent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonus45 View Post
    Ed vs Shirou
    To me depends on the version of Shirou you are using.

    Fate's overall power scale is higher than FMA, and Shirou gets to pull some hack shenanigans thanks to the time travel overlap of meeting his future self and how his fake arm in one of the timelines patches in decades worth of experience. Before the murder-death-kill, Shirou was pretty worthless. Afterwards, I agree completely that he would beat Ed.

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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Mato View Post

    To me depends on the version of Shirou you are using.
    Yea this is the question to end all questions. His power level varies so wildly between different routes, and that isn't even getting into stuff like Ataraxia or Prisma Ilya or god forbid the literal future self present and hanging around showing off what he could look like after years of super murder power. Decided powerset stuff was probably that hardest part of that write up. Whereas for the Lust vs Lancer bit the hardest part was how boringly one sided it was. So I'm considering rewriting the while thing with Diarmuid.
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Does the version of Shirou that's an adult fully and properly trained Magus version of himself that's also a Saber-Class Psuedo Servant due to being possessed by Sengo Muramasa count as a Shirou?

    NPC in Fate/Grand Order, Muramasa and Shirou are the most hax combination. Muramasa's Noble Phantasm is the abillity to forge demonic swords that emulate the properties of Divine Contructs and Holy Blades, dependant on time adn quality of materials. Shirou's reality marble allows him to conjure things from nothing and contains literally infinite Holy Blades, Demonic Swords, and magical weapons of all kinds beyond that, including a handful of divine contructs that he can't use under normal circumstances--Essentally, Muramasa possessing Shirou mixes and matches traits from Shirou's copied swords to project his own unique creations.

    The ultimate result is Tsumugari Muramasa, the totality of Unlimited Blade Works and it's infinite Mystic Codes and Noble Phantasms compressed into an infitely powerful blade modled on Kusanagi-no-Tsurugi, which he uses to destroy a reality marble, castle, and othherwise physically invincible Servant projecting them both in a single swing(though this kills Muramasa, as a mortal body, even one possessed by a servant, can't handle and infiitly powerful version of a Godly Sword.)
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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Wouldn't a weapon-type Noble Phantasm cut/pierce/break through anything Ed could potentially transmute? Even a weaker, imperfect fake of a NP?

    Alchemy generally just rearranges matter, it doesn't imbue magical properties within it as far as I'm aware.

    Basically, Shirou would have Scissors to Ed's Paper regardless of how he folds or shapes that paper.
    Last edited by Kitten Champion; 2018-06-07 at 02:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Death Battle IV: The Source Material Loses

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    Wouldn't a weapon-type Noble Phantasm cut/pierce/break through anything Ed could potentially transmute? Even a weaker, imperfect fake of a NP?

    Alchemy generally just rearranges matter, it doesn't imbue magical properties within it as far as I'm aware.

    Basically, Shirou would have Scissors to Ed's Paper regardless of how he folds or shapes that paper.
    Ed's smart enough to go with concealment instead of cover if he needs to, so unless Shirou also has methods of bypassing that (I have no idea if he does) it's not quite as hard a counter as that. That said, from what little sense I've gotten from the Fate series I suspect Ed would probably lose - it seems to operate on a higher power level than FMA does in general.
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