OOTS #1208 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Rinion]

Seeing Redcloak's and Durkon's respective upbringings and worldviews grapple with each other is magnificent.

[BirdHarvester]

This conversation is going surprisingly well.

[Unavenger]

Very nice. *Applause*.

[IChosePoorly]

I'm waiting for the other differently-sized boot to drop...

[aapje]

Goblin lives matter!

[understatement]

Huh. Redcloak's eye looks kind of weird.

Other than that...wow. Awesome strip.

Quick, Durkon, mention his god won't make it!

[Dragonus45]

Yea, it’s kind of funny watching Red Cloak just erase Durkon’s entire life and identity behind the word “dwarf” in the middle of the discussion and not even realize what he had done. It makes me wonder in general just how coddled the other races actually were at creation. But regardless peace will be supremely hard to come by after the slaughters at Azure City, not to mentioned that atrocities committed after they took it. It might take some literal divine intervention for this cycle of violence to end, Red Cloak has an oncoming lesson in the futility of trying to reach justice through unjust means.

[Psyren]

Uh-oh. This is drifting into areas Durkon can't possibly negotiate for. Sure Thor might agree that the goblins should be allowed to keep Azure City, but what if the Twelve don't agree? Two-color Snarl? And even if Durkon says all the gods agree, how can Redcloak trust them to keep their word once the Snarl is no longer a threat?

Also, they're not exactly whispering. What happens if Xykon wanders over?

[Peelee]

Uh-oh. This is drifting into areas Durkon can't possibly negotiate for. Sure Thor might agree that the goblins should be allowed to keep Azure City, but what if the Twelve don't agree? Two-color Snarl? And even if Durkon says all the gods agree, how can Redcloak trust them to keep their word once the Snarl is no longer a threat?

Also, they're not exactly whispering. What happens if Xykon wanders over?

Imean really, Durkon can't negotiate for anything. This strikes me more as a fact - finding mission. Getting the demands and desires to deliver to the boss, and they maybe the Thor can reach out to TDO with an offer that would at least attract his attention.

[The MunchKING]

Awwwwe. We could have had "The Goblins' Republic of Goblins"? That's some MtG Goblin naming structure right there. :p

[Sutremaine]

Yea, it’s kind of funny watching Red Cloak just erase Durkon’s entire life and identity behind the word “dwarf” in the middle of the discussion and not even realize what he had done.

I recall he did something the same to Oona. She wanted more opportunities for hobgoblins, and Redcloak said that her one colony could trade with his one city as though that counted as equality. Redcloak is very blind to his own prejudices... but it's good to see the goblin peoples' grievances being articulated.

[Fyraltari]

Wait!











How did Hobgobstan lose? That was clearly the superior option!

Yea, it’s kind of funny watching Red Cloak just erase Durkon’s entire life and identity behind the word “dwarf” in the middle of the discussion and not even realize what he had done. It makes me wonder in general just how coddled the other races actually were at creation.

Redcloak is a self-professed speciesist so this isn’t surprising.

[Draconi Redfir]

good to see things are going well! Hopefully they'll be able to make some kind of deal soon. Though i fear the curse of "the story must go on" might have something interrupt this.

Don't see why the Goblins wouldn't be able to keep Gobbotopia. Human countries that conquer their enemies get to keep their conquered territories, just see Tarquin's entire scheme for an example of that. Plus the Azurites have already begun settling that abandoned Elven island. Way i see it, everything's kind of evened out right now, kicking the Goblins out would just cause yet more strife.

[KorvinStarmast]

1. I wonder if Redcloak realizes that the position he is taking is "if we dont' get what we want, nobody gets what they want, or anything at all" since if the gods destroy the world that's how it ends up.
That isn't clear to me (him realizing that).

2. Good to see Redcloak start this negotiation with a hard/strong position.

3. Years ago I took a course on labor union / management negotiations. The standard union entering position was always: what's mine is mine what's yours is negotiable. Redcloak has taken that position as an opener, which is a sound negotiating tactic.

4. I'm glad this comic ended up with a joke.

(IIRC, for those who have not read Start of Darkness, they covered some of the core material in that book with this strip's discussion ... )

Thog's take on this comic would be:

1. Talkee dwarf and talkee goblin talkee too much.
2. Thog not like goblin casting aspersions at Thog's parentage.

[gatemansgc]

well i'm glad they chose gobbotopia too LOL

is the site loading slow for anyone else?

[Mad Humanist]

Awwwwe. We could have had "The Goblins' Republic of Goblins"? That's some MtG Goblin naming structure right there. :p

wait! are you saying this is a reference to a game. Please provide evidence if it is. I like to track this sort of stuff.

[KorvinStarmast]

is the site loading slow for anyone else?

Yes, I get plenty of internal server error messages. Have for the last two days.

[Lord Torath]

Yea, it’s kind of funny watching Red Cloak just erase Durkon’s entire life and identity behind the word “dwarf” in the middle of the discussion and not even realize what he had done. It makes me wonder in general just how coddled the other races actually were at creation. But regardless peace will be supremely hard to come by after the slaughters at Azure City, not to mentioned that atrocities committed after they took it. It might take some literal divine intervention for this cycle of violence to end, Red Cloak has an oncoming lesson in the futility of trying to reach justice through unjust means.

That jumped out at me, too.

Awwwwe. We could have had "The Goblins' Republic of Goblins"? That's some MtG Goblin naming structure right there. :p

Great job on the apostrophe placement. As Rich has it, "The Goblin's Republic of Goblins" belongs to a single goblin, rather than to all of them. Come to think of it, that could be deliberate, although if the goblins voted on the name, then, unless Red Cloak suggested it, it's probably a mistake.

[Schroeswald]

well i'm glad they chose gobbotopia too LOL

is the site loading slow for anyone else?

Yeah, I've been having trouble for awhile.

[Dausuul]

So, here's how I'm betting things go down:

Durkon and Redcloak hash things out, with a fair amount of sparks flying, but ultimately they work out a deal that is fair to all sides.

Then they discover that neither of their gods will accept the deal they've made: Thor because he can't get the other gods on board, and the Dark One because TDO is not actually a benevolent deity in any sense.

[Bartok]

Have I missed something or has Durkon failed to mention that the Dark One won't survive long enough to be part of the next world building?

[Ninja Dragon]

This is going surprigingly well. Even though RC is taking hardline positions, he's 100% open to negoatiate. I'd never bet this would happen after reading Start of Darkness.

Wonder how this goes south.

[Psyren]

Imean really, Durkon can't negotiate for anything. This strikes me more as a fact - finding mission. Getting the demands and desires to deliver to the boss, and they maybe the Thor can reach out to TDO with an offer that would at least attract his attention.

But Thor CAN'T reach out to TDO, that's the whole reason for this approach in the first place. Durkon has to convince Redcloak - with no collateral and nothing for RC to go on except faith in deities he has no reason to trust.

It might still work - clerics are the most capable of leaps of faith after all - but the outlook for a successful resolution here is looking fairly grim.

[El Dorado]

He should also ask that goblins get added to the PHB as a playable race.

[Coyote0715]

And so begins Festivus....

[Frozenstep]

But Thor CAN'T reach out to TDO, that's the whole reason for this approach in the first place. Durkon has to convince Redcloak - with no collateral and nothing for RC to go on except faith in deities he has no reason to trust.

It might still work - clerics are the most capable of leaps of faith after all - but the outlook for a successful resolution here is looking fairly grim.

What really needs to happen is to convince TDO that it would be worth it to open up enough for Thor/others to reach out to him, before he has the snarl ready to use (because he won't have it ready to use because the world will be blown up).

[EmperorSarda]

He should also ask that goblins get added to the PHB as a playable race.

Wouldn't that require remaking the world?

[Hiro Quester]

Wow. I love all of this.

I thoroughly appreciate the complexity of Durkon and Redcloak discussing anti-goblin racism/speciesism ("Monsters") and Dwarf privilege ("Adventurers"), and I applaud Rich for a comic that encourages readers to think about potential real-world relevance of this topic (as good art should do).

But it's worth noting that us discussing these potential connections to real world politics is explicitly defined in the forum rules an inappropriate topic.

[Thanatos95]

Wouldn't that require remaking the world?

Nope, just an edition upgrade. It was the very first gag in OotS, so it would be very appropriate for it to be the last one as well.