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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Forgive me, but that seems like a shift in outlook that requires a non-trivial explanation.


    If Miko addresses Hinjo as "cousin" in Scar, but says in effect that "I have no family" in War & XPs - then it does show a change of outlook.

    But if it's the case Hinjo describes Miko as cousin, but Miko never describes Hinjo as cousin - then a change of outlook is not necessarily mandated.

    It would be like in some stepfamilies, where the stepparents are happy to use "daughter" or "son" for their stepchild, but the stepchild doesn't reciprocate - insisting on addressing their stepparent by name.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2018-05-16 at 09:29 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    But if it's the case Hinjo describes Miko as cousin, but Miko never describes Hinjo as cousin - then a change of outlook is not necessarily mandated.
    Nope. Miko calls him cousin right back at least twice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It's not a plot hole; at worst, it's a minor inconsistency that doesn't affect the plot.
    It doesn't affect the plot directly... but it has some potential import to Miko's background motivations. Miko killing a defenceless old man who was recently lord of the city is not good. Miko killing her surrogate father is even worse. But Miko killing someone who used to be her surrogate father and then... disowned her?... would explain a lot. You can get a lot of bad blood between family members depending on how the estate is divided up.

    But again, I don't really know what's going on there. I was hoping the author could elaborate.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    It doesn't affect the plot directly... but it has some potential import to Miko's background motivations. Miko killing a defenceless old man who was recently lord of the city is not good. Miko killing her surrogate father is even worse. But Miko killing someone who used to be her surrogate father and then... disowned her?... would explain a lot. You can get a lot of bad blood between family members depending on how the estate is divided up.
    Imean, you see all the motivation you need in the online comic. Miko is so sure of her own infallibility that she misreads everything in whatever light makes her right. Roy tricked Miko into killing Shojo. Roy tricked Shojo into saying the things that made Miko kill him. Roy and Shojo were in league together. All said within a minute. She reaches for any explanation she can so that she can believe she isn't wrong. The Twelve Gods themselves appear and personally remove your paladin powers? That was because of someone else's wrongdoing, not hers.

    Just because you refuse to either acknowledge or accept that Miko has a crippling character flaw does not mean that she doesn't have a crippling character flaw. And if you want to continue trying to reason in a way for Miko to be the super special awesome nice person you want her to be while still staying true to her portrayal in the comic, then maybe start a thread devoted to that. We've already had one redtext saying that this thread is supposed to be about the book that's coming out. I'd very much like to not be slapped down with another.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2018-05-16 at 11:56 AM. Reason: Lord Torath is smarter than I.
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I mean, you see all the motivation you need in the online comic. Miko is so sure of her own infallibility that she misreads everything in whatever light makes her right... ...Just because you refuse to either acknowledge or accept that Miko has a crippling character flaw...
    I could throw around accusations that certain readers are so certain of the author's infallibility that they engage in fabulous mental gymnastics to avoid admitting a plain textual contradiction, but... I have not done so, because I don't strictly know that's true. I will allow for the possibility that the author has genuinely given thought to how the petty-noble footsoldier with modest resources and no surviving kin might have evolved from the adoptive protegé princess in recent publication. If you have your own theories on that front, I'd be happy to hear them. But I will thank you not to impute motivated reasoning to my analysis where I can see abundant motivation behind yours.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    I could throw around accusations that certain readers are so certain of the author's infallibility that they engage in fabulous mental gymnastics to avoid admitting a plain textual contradiction
    The only contradiction that you can claim is that Miko was adopted by Shojo, yet claims no familial ties. Which, as has been pointed out, is not terribly unusual. Neither is murder committed by a family member, sad to say. I by no means subscribe to author infallibility - in fact, I fully disagree with some messages the author puts forth. That I accept what is in the text regarding a character is hardly mental gymnastics.
    Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking).

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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    It would be nice to just change the title of this thread to be "stuff about Jedi"

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Nope. Miko calls him cousin right back at least twice.
    OK, twice -

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    "Cousin Hinjo? You should not be here." and "Cousin." when the two groups meet again.


    It may be akin to Roy's calling a family friend "Uncle Myrtok" despite their not being related - he calls him "Uncle" but doesn't see him as family, Miko calls Hinjo Cousin, but may not see him as family.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2018-05-21 at 01:40 PM. Reason: spoiler tagging info that might need spoiler tagging.
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    I'm inclined to think "we have no family" to "Hinjo is my cousin" does indicate a minor shift in the writing background.

    I just don't think "three books ago, this character had the same background but how she viewed it was slightly different" is worth attaching any significance to. In How the Paladin Got His Scar and War and XPs alike, it's pretty evident that, in Miko's mind, =irritatingly lenient paladin who I outrank; whether the name she stuck on that concept was "Hinjo" or "Cousin Hinjo" made absolutely no difference to the way she acted toward him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    My mother is the godmother of a girl whose mother she was friends with when I was a baby. I call her my cousin, and when I was younger I thought of her as a little like family. Now, if someone asked me if she was my relative, I would say “No.” But I still call her my cousin, for some reason.

    Maybe there’s a somewhat similar relationship between Miko and Hinjo. I could see that.
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    For what I could understand, the whole "cousin x no family" debate is aimed at deducing if there's any blood relation (even if distant) beetween Miko and Shojo (and Hinjo). As far as we've seem until now, there's none (but I may be proved wrong).
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  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    For what I could understand, the whole "cousin x no family" debate is aimed at deducing if there's any blood relation (even if distant) beetween Miko and Shojo (and Hinjo). As far as we've seen until now, there's none (but I may be proved wrong).
    This isn't especially about blood ties. I mean, sure, it would be interesting/puzzling if there were some, but the main point is that early-strip Miko shows absolutely no sign of belonging to the royal family or even being particularly highly placed in azurite society outside of her authority in the guard.

    Does anyone think that Miko, the ostensible overbearing narcissist who exploits every advantageous technicality, wouldn't be emphasising her ties to the ruling house at every possible opportunity? Because I sure don't.

    Bear in mind this is a webcomic where one of the main protagonists was literally brain-damaged by the combination of one parent dying young and the other being overly paranoid. I consider this idea to be complete nonsense, but you can't just pretend that the details of a character's family environment are incidental to their development in OOTS. This is huge.
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  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Bear in mind this is a webcomic where one of the main protagonists was literally brain-damaged by the combination of one parent dying young and the other being overly paranoid.
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  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

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  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    Does anyone think that Miko, the ostensible overbearing narcissist who exploits every advantageous technicality, wouldn't be emphasising her ties to the ruling house at every possible opportunity? Because I sure don't.
    Your double negative phrases that poorly and presumptuously. It would be more straight-forward to say "I [L.C.] think Miko is an overbearing narcissist who exploits every advantageous technicality and therefore would be emphasising[sic] her ties to the ruling house at every possible opportunity. Doesn't everyone?"

    And the obvious answer is "No". In my opinion she feels her mandate of being better than others comes from the Twelve Gods she was born under. Any supposed power from a human-made social system is meaningless in that view, similar to the national borders that she holds beneath her when she tracks down the OotS in the first place.

    As for her 'cousin' status with Hinjo: First, once Hinjo joined the Sapphire guard he became a fellow soldier of righteousness - any non-blood relationship no longer mattered once she literally outranked him. Even blood cousins in the armed services don't generally say 'cousin' when on duty and she was always on duty. In the bonus strip she would know that Hinjo was already occupied; so even if she still thought of him as family she could still simply have meant "none of us has family available to eat with" without needing some deeper mental gymnastics.

  14. - Top - End - #104
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    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Throknor View Post
    Any supposed power from a human-made social system is meaningless in that view, similar to the national borders that she holds beneath her when she tracks down the OotS in the first place.
    I always find it striking how many people give Miko flack over this, when it was Shojo who ordered her to go traipsing into other countries in the first place, despite believing that the Order were approximately innocent, and happily violated his own legal system several times over, despite swearing the same oaths. Personality goes a long way, it seems. But that's neither here nor there.

    In any case, no, I don't think that Miko considered her power from a human-made social system to be meaningless. (Note, also, "when I turned 13, Lord Shojo chose me to become one of his Samurai." Not, "when I turned 13, Lord Shojo adopted me into his family/made me his ward/raised me to the peerage.") Shojo is only ever referred to as her lord or master, even when she's basically talking to herself or not exactly in full self-control. And Sapphire Guard membership never stopped Hinjo from calling his uncle his uncle.

    If you want to argue that the Miko we mostly got is an unstable, overzealous, self-deluded termagant fanatic, go ahead. But that version is clearly not part of Shojo's family.


    You know, in a way, I should thank the author. I always felt that Miko's development did her a disservice, but this is like she never even existed as a coherent textual entity. It's... almost a relief, really.
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  15. - Top - End - #105
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    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lacuna Caster View Post
    If you want to argue that the Miko we mostly got is an unstable, overzealous, self-deluded termagant fanatic, go ahead. But that version is clearly not part of Shojo's family.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    We've already had one redtext saying that this thread is supposed to be about the book that's coming out. I'd very much like to not be slapped down with another.
    Maybe move the discussion to the How The Paladin Got His Scar thread itself (possibly asking permission to revive it sine it's nearly a year since last post):

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...Scar-(SPOILERS!)

    or just create a new "Retcons in OOTS - Miko as Shojo's adopted daughter" thread.

    Though it's possible that commentary in the book will shed light on the reasoning behind The Giant's decision to make Miko Shojo's adopted daughter.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2018-05-18 at 06:21 AM.
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  16. - Top - End - #106
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    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    First, this is not that complicated:

    Spoiler: How the Paladin Got His Scar
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    Miko is not legally Shojo's daughter, but he did "adopt" her in the sense of taking her under his wing and mentoring her. As was mentioned in the main comic, she was only 13 at the time, so she would have been living under his roof rather than being on her own. As a result, both Miko and Hinjo were told to think of each other as cousins. As adults, they no longer see each other in that light, because they are not actually cousins and Miko's general behavior in the interim has already brought strain to that relationship. I'm sure they had a big falling out at some point, but that's not what the story was about so I didn't show it. And to be clear, I don't feel like I need to spell this out in the text just so that everyone can feel like all the dots connect.


    Second, this is a thread for people to come looking for information about the book they want to buy. Please do not post unmarked spoilers for that book in this thread! I should not have to tell you this.

    Third, Lacuna Caster, since this is the second time I've had to warn you about what this thread is for, don't post it in again, for any reason.
    Last edited by The Giant; 2018-05-21 at 02:00 PM. Reason: Slight tweak of wording
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  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    At first I read the title as "Book 1 of 2" and I was wondering what would the second book be. Pre-ordered, and I threw in a second copy of Book 2, hopefully with the full Haley-translations, hehe.

    So, -1, 0, 1/2, D, and 1-5. I think I'm not missing anything (The coloring book, I know, but I'm not getting it for now). Speaking of this, maybe we are close to Book 6 ending now?
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  18. - Top - End - #108
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    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    Quote Originally Posted by ref View Post
    Speaking of this, maybe we are close to Book 6 ending now?
    Doubt it. For one, too much foreshadowing hasn't come to a head yet (Durkon's mum & "family" haven't shown up in the present, the ex-Exarch was sent off to work on the Council just before the start of this fight, etc). For another, Book 5 ran #673-946 [274 strips] - as of this post (i.e., as of #1122), there are 176 strips from Book 6 on the website. While that doesn't mean there are exactly 98 strips to go, I doubt it would be ~two-thirds the length of the prior book, even if it wasn't quite as long.

  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    Placed my order over the weekend. I can hardly wait! Thanks, Giant!
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  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reboot View Post
    Doubt it. For one, too much foreshadowing hasn't come to a head yet (Durkon's mum & "family" haven't shown up in the present, the ex-Exarch was sent off to work on the Council just before the start of this fight, etc). For another, Book 5 ran #673-946 [274 strips] - as of this post (i.e., as of #1122), there are 176 strips from Book 6 on the website. While that doesn't mean there are exactly 98 strips to go, I doubt it would be ~two-thirds the length of the prior book, even if it wasn't quite as long.
    Check the page count though. We're approaching the (online) length of DSP, the longer of the two previous gateless books, and this book is already longer than NCftPB. And things are starting to come to a head: we've explicitly got Durkon's last memory-viewing, and we're in the middle of a battle that's been built up for a good two thirds of the book. My guess is, story-wise, we're somewhere around the explosion of the pyramid, if you want to make a comparison to BRitF. This is the beginning of what's likely to be a fairly long climax, with some resolution to follow that will feed into the final book. I wouldn't expect any more cutaways to Team Evil or anyone else, at least.

    We also know that BRitF ran so long that the Giant would have preferred to split it into two books, so I doubt its length is anything to go by. At a guess, this book will probably be over around strip 1150-1160; certainly by the 1200s.
    Last edited by unbeliever536; 2018-06-01 at 08:46 PM.
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  21. - Top - End - #111
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    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    I would like to buy the book; at the same time, transoceanic shipping is a killing, and I already read most of the content by being a kickstarter backer. Since the next oots compilation can't take too long to be ready, I wanted to wait until then, and order both books at once, saving a bit on shipping.

    My question is: do I have a guarantee that by the time I actually order the book, it will still be available in store?

    EDIT: Or rather, I know I don't have a 100% guarantee, but how much can I count on it?
    Last edited by King of Nowere; 2018-06-02 at 11:51 AM.
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    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nowere View Post
    I would like to buy the book; at the same time, transoceanic shipping is a killing, and I already read most of the content by being a kickstarter backer. Since the next oots compilation can't take too long to be ready, I wanted to wait until then, and order both books at once, saving a bit on shipping.

    My question is: do I have a guarantee that by the time I actually order the book, it will still be available in store?

    EDIT: Or rather, I know I don't have a 100% guarantee, but how much can I count on it?
    You can probably count on the PDF to be always available.

    For the hardcopy, the current book is barely two-thirds ready. Adding the lag time between the publishing of this book's final online strip and the time when its first paperback is on sale, I think you're looking at a minimum of 6 months before you can put both in the same order. I can't tell if this book would stay on shelf at Ookoodook that long, but after 6 months you do have a >0% chance of finding it from a secondary or even tertiary distributor. There would be offers on Amazon, at the very least. Of course if the book is scarce at that time, secondary distributors can increase the price at their own distinction, regardless of the shipping cost.
    Last edited by M.A.D; 2018-06-08 at 12:36 AM.
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  23. - Top - End - #113
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    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    Quote Originally Posted by M.A.D View Post
    For the hardcopy, the current book is barely two-thirds ready. Adding the lag time between the publishing of this book's final online strip and the time when its first paperback is on sale, I think you're looking at a minimum of 6 months before you can put both in the same order.
    Oh, more than that. #945 (last strip of Book 5) went up 19 Feb 2014. BRITF was announced 20 Oct 2014. That's eight months *after the book was finished online*. Then you have to allow the fact that there's still more to go in Book 6...

    If Book 6 is up for order before the start of 2020, I'll be shocked.

  24. - Top - End - #114
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    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    Quote Originally Posted by M.A.D View Post
    You can probably count on the PDF to be always available.

    For the hardcopy, the current book is barely two-thirds ready.
    How do you say? is there a specific statement from rich about it? If not, then I would not trust mathematical extrapolations based on the lenght of previous books, simply because they are too erratic. the present arc seems like a climatic encounter to me, one that coulld end the book in a dozen strips or two. If I see that is not the case, then I can still order good deeds gone unpunished
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    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nowere View Post
    How do you say? is there a specific statement from rich about it? If not, then I would not trust mathematical extrapolations based on the lenght of previous books, simply because they are too erratic. the present arc seems like a climatic encounter to me, one that coulld end the book in a dozen strips or two.
    It can't be, for one very simple reason: the Ex-Exarch was sent away to prepare the following encounter. If this was the climax, that wouldn't have happened.

    (Also, we've yet to see Durkon's mum/etc in the present day after all the flashback setup, etc, etc...)

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    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    Q: Why are you using Gumroad instead of (insert name of other company)?
    A: Because they charge the lowest commission, which means I could lower the price more. Plus, most other companies that offer a watermark service add it to every single page, which seemed like overkill to me. One page is enough.
    Well, I have to say, Gumroad's storefront is pretty awful. Half the stuff I buy never shows up on my Gumroad App, or the library. I accidently bought two copies of AMFES: Winter because it doesn't show which files you've already bought. Even though I bought two copies, neither one of the shows up in the App or my library. I just have to keep track of downloaded files.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    (about bundle deals)
    Basically, I would need to have unified fulfillment in order to pull this off without a lot of people taking unfair advantage of it, and I don't.
    Like, say, DriveThruRPG? I've used them forever (in Internet time). They do print-on-demand and PDF bundles all the time. I also never have any of the PDF problems either.
    Last edited by brionl; 2018-06-22 at 01:25 PM.
    'F' is the fire that rains from the Sky
    'U' for Uranium, BOMB!
    'N' is for No Survivors...

  27. - Top - End - #117
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    Can I get all 9 printed books together for less than the a la carte price of $231.55?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Look, it's a book!


    The Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished is the latest book (ninth overall!) in the Order of the Stick saga, featuring tales of Azure City and beyond. Join your favorite Azurite heroes—and some all-new faces—through hilarious action and thrilling edge-of-your-seat comedy presented in patented greyscale "PrequelVision." Five tales tell the story of Azure City before, during, and after its conquest by hobgoblins (whoops, spoiler!) through the eyes of its residents, paladin and commoner alike:

  28. - Top - End - #118
    Titan in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Manchester, UK
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathguy View Post
    Can I get all 9 printed books together for less than the a la carte price of $231.55?
    Can't speak for the Giant, but I doubt it--his costs don't change just because you bought all the books together.

  29. - Top - End - #119
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGuy

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    Quote Originally Posted by brionl View Post
    Well, I have to say, Gumroad's storefront is pretty awful. Half the stuff I buy never shows up on my Gumroad App, or the library. I accidently bought two copies of AMFES: Winter because it doesn't show which files you've already bought. Even though I bought two copies, neither one of the shows up in the App or my library. I just have to keep track of downloaded files.
    Are you logged in when buying something on Gumroad? If not, are you always using the same email address?

    I've bought a bunch of stuff on Gumroad and everything I've bought using the same email address appears in my library just fine.

  30. - Top - End - #120
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: New Prequel Book! Order of the Stick: Good Deeds Gone Unpunished (Book 1/2)

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Can't speak for the Giant, but I doubt it--his costs don't change just because you bought all the books together.
    Well, the postage certainly goes down if you bundle books together, but there is also the incentive factor. If a deal offering 9 books together for X% off will induce people who take the deal to buy Y% more books, that at full price have a Z% profit margin, than they otherwise would have, whether the math works if it is offered depends on financial and marketing details I'm not privy to, but it's worth a shot.

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