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2018-05-02, 05:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2012
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- Next to the Mandolinist
Is Hilgya Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral II - It's always personal
This thread is the sequel to the previous thread, Is Hilgya Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral? (Or Lawful Good?) because it reached 51 pages and people still were discussing it.
To those who are just joining this thread, I'll sum up the arguments for a starting point:
(1) Word of God confirms Hilgya used to be Evil.
(2) It's possible she had an alignment change between then and now.
(3) Some of her actions seem to be less evil than her previous actions, but some of her current intents still seem pretty evil and some of her current actions are being debated about whether they are neutral or evil.
(4) Some people think she was justified in her response due to the circumstances; other people disagree and say it was too far or had the wrong intent
(5) Some people give more credibility to Hilgya's statements
(6) There's also the question of assuming how Dwarven society (and the Firehelm clan) works and the entire context of her actions
(7) If you compare her to confirmed chaotic-evil characters, she seems to be less evil than them; however, she is also arguably more evil than the confirmed chaotic neutral charactersLast edited by 5a Violista; 2018-05-02 at 06:16 PM. Reason: Spelling, clarification
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2018-05-02, 05:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
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- Lake Wobegon
- Gender
Re: Is Hilgya Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral II - It's always personal
A pension fund trustee betting the fund's money on a horse race would have absolutely betrayed her fiduciary duty, which is basically to seek as high and as safe a return as possible. If I took a client's money from my firm's IOLA account and bet in on a horse race, I would likewise have breached a fiduciary duty even if it paid off in spades and all of it went to the client, because the point of an IOLA account is to preserve that money against any risk. Fiduciary duty is greater than the ordinary trust placed in a Board's business judgment.
Why do you think they were dismayed? Do you think they were feeling bad for him because he had lost his own money, or do you think that they were dismayed because property which was to be used for their own benefit had been lost.
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2018-05-02, 06:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2016
Re: Is Hilgya Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral II - It's always personal
Yes, because there are specific duties relating to funds held by lawyer's on behalf of clients. But the individual in Hilgya's clan was not a lawyer holding funds on behalf of a client, so those duties did not apply. Exactly what his obligations were depends on the terms of the trust (and if it was an implied trust, those terms would be implied), but to seek a return by exercising his best judgment might indeed have been those terms.
I suspect there was an expectation and long tradition that the money be used for the clan's benefit, but that neither the individual clan members nor the clan as a collective body had an actual, cognizable right to the money.
- A beneficiary of a trust is called a beneficiary because they expect (sometimes implicitly - eg by 'long tradition')to benefit from property. (your first sentence)
- In a trust neither the clan or the members of it (other than those who are trustees) have rights to deal with the money.
That is what a trust is - one person (trustee) holding property for the benefit of another person (a beneficiary). That arrangement can be formally documented, or it can be merely understood between the parties (an implied trust). The very circumstances you describe go along way to satisfying the elements of an implied trust.
While it is true that the existence of a fiduciary relationship can suggest a trust exist, the existence of a trust will also create a fiduciary relationship - the fiduciary relationship need not exist independently or in advance of the trust.
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2018-05-02, 06:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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- Lake Wobegon
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2018-05-02, 06:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2018
- Gender
Re: Is Hilgya Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral II - It's always personal
I posted this in the last thread, but if we're moving to this one I'll post it again:
It was mentioned that in real-life there are many situations in which bringing justice to harmed/oppressed people may often come at the expense of a bit of harm to people who weren't directly involved/knowledgeable of the harm in question, but I'm not so sure that's the case.
It's certainly true that in many real-life situation narratives are crafted to make it seem like certain groups (white people, men, Christians, any number of other groups) will be harmed, but usually it's less "they will be harmed" and more "they will not receive special treatment". I think that's a different can of worms than Hilgya bankrupting her clan and just considering everyone in it forgivable collateral damage.
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2018-05-02, 06:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
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- US
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Re: Is Hilgya Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral II - It's always personal
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2018-05-02, 07:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2016
Re: Is Hilgya Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral II - It's always personal
Which comes full circle back to the question of why you think there was no fiduciary relationship, which you have not adequately answered. Do you genuinely still believe that something less than a trust existed, or are you just still arguing the point because you don't want to concede your earlier position was wrong (if we are honest, I'm sure that's something all of us have done before)?
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2018-05-02, 07:35 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2016
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- Earth
Re: Is Hilgya Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral II - It's always personal
While I'm no expert on how that works, I would argue that an implicit contract like the one that seems to be being discussed regarding the clan funds that is imposed on a character without their express consent is something that can be broken without it being an inherently evil act. Sure, the implications might be, but per se the breach of any contract is chaotic, particularly one that a character has forced upon them. It is not evil, though the ramifications thereof might be.
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2018-05-02, 07:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2010
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- Lake Wobegon
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Re: Is Hilgya Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral II - It's always personal
No, I genuinely believe that the money was Hilgya's brother's private property, for which I gave an anthropological reason last thread.
Another anthropological indication: if it really had been the clan's common property, Hilgya's brother would more likely have been a woman. The transition from communal to private property was also marked by a transfer of wealth to men.
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2018-05-02, 07:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: Is Hilgya Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral II - It's always personal
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2018-05-02, 07:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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- Brazil
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Re: Is Hilgya Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral II - It's always personal
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2018-05-02, 07:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2016
Re: Is Hilgya Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral II - It's always personal
I'm afraid that doesn't follow at all.
- If the property was communal then it is not owned by any one person, but communally (presumably men and women). Cultures differed as to whether men or women controlled communally owned property.
- If the property is not communal, the brother being a man is at least as consistent with him being a trustee as it is with him being a sole owner. Men are at least as likely to be a trustee as they are to be the sole owner of property (in part because being a trustee requires them to legally own the property).
But putting all the meadering aside, the strip itself answers the question explicitly - The dwarf to the brother's right says "you bet our entire family fortune". The dwarf is claiming ownership - which suggests actual ownership (more direct than a trust) and certainly more than a complete lack of rights which you were suggesting.Last edited by Liquor Box; 2018-05-02 at 07:56 PM.
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2018-05-02, 08:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Location
- Oregon, USA
Re: Is Hilgya Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral II - It's always personal
I believe the position is that since Hilgya's brother was able to bet the entirety of the clan's fortune on a single race, and none of the other Firehelms there expressed outrage (as would almost certainly be the case if he did had something they found illegitimate); it suggests Hilgya's brother was permitted to use all the funds owned by the clan as he saw fit, without an expectation of using them for the good of the clan...in which case "the clan's fortune" is little more than a good-sounding, but ultimately meaningless, phrase.
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2018-05-02, 08:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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- Brazil
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Re: Is Hilgya Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral II - It's always personal
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2018-05-02, 08:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: Is Hilgya Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral II - It's always personal
Not really. If those funds were for, say, paying taxes on their clan hall and they simply trusted their brother/cousin to not run off with it and do something stupid, theyre still screwed. I think Zimmerwald is simply overestimating the level of bureaucracy the dwarves have for that position.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2018-05-02, 08:24 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2005
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- Sweden
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2018-05-02, 08:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2004
Re: Is Hilgya Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral II - It's always personal
I think it's a mistake to put so much weight on the fact that, in one panel in which the depicted clan members were going, "...all our fortune? We're gonna be caveless!" none of them yet said, "You had no right!"
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2018-05-02, 08:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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- Brazil
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Re: Is Hilgya Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral II - It's always personal
Well, yes, they are. Except they gave that cash to her brother. It's her brother's, now, not the clan's. So Hilgya didn't target any innocents; it's the fault of the clan for giving their cash to Gamblingaddict.
He had no right to a lot of things.
As a result, their clan is now destitute.
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2018-05-02, 08:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: Is Hilgya Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral II - It's always personal
Theres a difference between directing somebody to manage a group's finances responsibly and giving them a wad of cash to do whatever with. The former comes with the implicit and often explicit requirement that you manage the money responsibly and for the betterment of the group, while the latter gives free reign.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2018-05-02, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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- Brazil
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Re: Is Hilgya Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral II - It's always personal
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2018-05-02, 09:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- Oregon, USA
Re: Is Hilgya Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral II - It's always personal
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2018-05-02, 09:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-05-02, 09:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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Re: Is Hilgya Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral II - It's always personal
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2018-05-02, 09:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: Is Hilgya Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral II - It's always personal
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2018-05-02, 09:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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- Brazil
- Gender
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2018-05-02, 09:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: Is Hilgya Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral II - It's always personal
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2018-05-02, 09:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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- Brazil
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2018-05-02, 09:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: Is Hilgya Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral II - It's always personal
Its his fault that you got married. He does not subsequently rob you of any and all agency and responsibility for your actions. You still make decisions that have consequences, and when you do something like collapse a house on somebody or trick them into crossing a broken bridge, you are the one responsible for those deeds, because you made a decision and acted on it.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2018-05-02, 09:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
- Location
- Oregon, USA
Re: Is Hilgya Chaotic Evil or Chaotic Neutral II - It's always personal
Last panel of #52.
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The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2018-05-02, 09:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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