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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    @Saintheart
    Thanks for the information!

    @Zombulian I hope you don't mind that I mentioned the fire plan in the IC thread. It's been discussed a little bit here, but it wouldn't make sense for the characters to go ahead with it unless they talked about it first. What Three mentioned wouldn't work anyway, since we can't actually make the building immune to fire yet, so there is space to build on it.

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Kuros is rather worried about any plan that involves starting a sizable fire inside the fort. Svetlana and Oleg opened their home to us, albeit under heightened expectations, but Kuros kind of craves acceptance due to some abandonment issues so he really doesn't want to hurt their home.
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by almondsAndRain View Post
    @Saintheart
    Thanks for the information!

    @Zombulian I hope you don't mind that I mentioned the fire plan in the IC thread. It's been discussed a little bit here, but it wouldn't make sense for the characters to go ahead with it unless they talked about it first. What Three mentioned wouldn't work anyway, since we can't actually make the building immune to fire yet, so there is space to build on it.
    Np. We can assume you took context clues from Ruk's mentioning of his own flasks.

    Quote Originally Posted by bcool999 View Post
    Kuros is rather worried about any plan that involves starting a sizable fire inside the fort. Svetlana and Oleg opened their home to us, albeit under heightened expectations, but Kuros kind of craves acceptance due to some abandonment issues so he really doesn't want to hurt their home.
    That's pretty fair. My "Dampen EVERYTHING" plan was a little unreasonable, I admit.
    Also, is Kuros a Humanoid? I'm wondering if Enlarge Person would be a reasonable spell pick later on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deeds View Post
    Caster backstories require a reason as to why they can cast spells. Wizards study hard to learn spells. Sorcerers often learn of their powers and then hone them through traveling. Clerics use piety to find the gift of spells through the gods or their ideals. Druids shun deodorant until a riding dog appears and they learn Entangle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Zom, my imaginary hat is off to you. *Horns? *What horns? *It's just an unusual hairstyle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    There are certain advantages to a game being as badly written as 3.5.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian View Post
    That's pretty fair. My "Dampen EVERYTHING" plan was a little unreasonable, I admit.
    Also, is Kuros a Humanoid? I'm wondering if Enlarge Person would be a reasonable spell pick later on.
    Yes, Kuros is Humanoid (Human, Dragonblood)

    EDIT: I came up with a plausible idea to make closing the gate easier. If Three is willing to create a scroll of Silent Image we can cast an illusion over the gate to make it appear that no one is there and that the gate is open and unbarred and sneak in and close it while the bandits loot. They may hear the gate close, but by then it will be too late for them.
    Last edited by bcool999; 2018-05-09 at 12:41 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Sorry, a caster level one Hold Person only covers twenty square-feet, and the from the map the gate is bigger than that. I'm kind of surprised WotC remembered to include a size restriction, to be honest.
    Dang. Me too. Always figured it was just a "you shut the door" spell. Never used it personally.

    EDIT: I came up with a plausible idea to make closing the gate easier. If Three is willing to create a scroll of Silent Image we can cast an illusion over the gate to make it appear that no one is there and that the gate is open and unbarred and sneak in and close it while the bandits loot. They may hear the gate close, but by then it will be too late for them.
    Ooh I like this.
    Last edited by Zombulian; 2018-05-09 at 02:04 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deeds View Post
    Caster backstories require a reason as to why they can cast spells. Wizards study hard to learn spells. Sorcerers often learn of their powers and then hone them through traveling. Clerics use piety to find the gift of spells through the gods or their ideals. Druids shun deodorant until a riding dog appears and they learn Entangle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Zom, my imaginary hat is off to you. *Horns? *What horns? *It's just an unusual hairstyle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    There are certain advantages to a game being as badly written as 3.5.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by bcool999 View Post
    EDIT: I came up with a plausible idea to make closing the gate easier. If Three is willing to create a scroll of Silent Image we can cast an illusion over the gate to make it appear that no one is there and that the gate is open and unbarred and sneak in and close it while the bandits loot. They may hear the gate close, but by then it will be too late for them.
    I like this idea too, but it depends on how tall the gate is. I have five ten-foot cubes to work with, but I'd need six to cover the whole thing if its over ten feet. Still, if it is over ten feet tall, at most one-sixth of the thing will be visible. Probably less. I think the bandits will fail that spot check, especially if they haven't dismounted yet.
    We'll need someone else to close the gate if we decide to go with this, though. The spell is Concentration duration.

    @Saintheart How tall would you say the gate is?

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Well, the walls of the palisade are ten feet high and the towers twenty feet, so I'd say that combined, the gate's lintel and the gate itself don't exceed ten feet in height, so carry on.

    Also, there are enough loose pelts and other goods in the storage pen for Gakan/kjelfalconer's idea to work. Given about two or three minutes' work, he could easily conceal himself beneath some pelts and explode out in a spray of furry vengeance when the moment is right. Gutsy - on my count you'd have about three people at the gate and two hiding elsewhere in the complex to run in and save his posterior - but that move might also distract the bandits from the illusion at the gate and getting the joint tied up.

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    It's worth considering mostly because you yourself stated that the pen never holds more than one or two of the bandits at once. If they could all fit in there, I'd just get overwhelmed, and it'd be a terrible idea.

    Also I'm kind of praying I can get one down in a single sneak attack.

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by kjelfalconer View Post
    It's worth considering mostly because you yourself stated that the pen never holds more than one or two of the bandits at once. If they could all fit in there, I'd just get overwhelmed, and it'd be a terrible idea.

    Also I'm kind of praying I can get one down in a single sneak attack.

    If I can borrow a 1st level spell from Dergosh I could cast Magic Fang on your fists and increase our odds. Also as a Kobold my Hide bonus is pretty nice even with no ranks in it, so I could join you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deeds View Post
    Caster backstories require a reason as to why they can cast spells. Wizards study hard to learn spells. Sorcerers often learn of their powers and then hone them through traveling. Clerics use piety to find the gift of spells through the gods or their ideals. Druids shun deodorant until a riding dog appears and they learn Entangle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Zom, my imaginary hat is off to you. *Horns? *What horns? *It's just an unusual hairstyle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    There are certain advantages to a game being as badly written as 3.5.

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    I'm trying to think of the best way to phrase a response to Dergosh without making him never want to share spell power with me because I'd like to, yknow, use my class abilities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deeds View Post
    Caster backstories require a reason as to why they can cast spells. Wizards study hard to learn spells. Sorcerers often learn of their powers and then hone them through traveling. Clerics use piety to find the gift of spells through the gods or their ideals. Druids shun deodorant until a riding dog appears and they learn Entangle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Zom, my imaginary hat is off to you. *Horns? *What horns? *It's just an unusual hairstyle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    There are certain advantages to a game being as badly written as 3.5.

  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian View Post
    I'm trying to think of the best way to phrase a response to Dergosh without making him never want to share spell power with me because I'd like to, yknow, use my class abilities.
    Dergosh does have 7 Int. Try to fool him? Word it as 'Being granted a taste of Gruumesh's might' rather than stealing. May also help to not mention the Deity you worship while doing so.
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian View Post
    If I can borrow a 1st level spell from Dergosh I could cast Magic Fang on your fists and increase our odds. Also as a Kobold my Hide bonus is pretty nice even with no ranks in it, so I could join you.
    Dergosh is never going to be too keen on someone else using his spells.
    Dergosh the Loud M Half-Orc Cleric 3 | HP: 17/26 | Init +10 | AC 16 T11 FF14 (18/13/16) | Fort +5 Ref +3 Will +6 | Listen +1, Spot +4 | ATK +5* melee 1d8+3/x2, +4* ranged 1d6+3/x2 | Cleric Spells: 0--guidance, guidance, light, resistance; 1st- cause fear, doom, sonic blast D (DC 14), shield of faith; 2nd- bullís strength, sonic weaponD, spiritual weapon
    Domain ability: piercing scream (DC 14)
    *+1 with guidance

    Spoiler: Dergosh Character Sheet
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by bcool999 View Post
    Dergosh does have 7 Int. Try to fool him? Word it as 'Being granted a taste of Gruumesh's might' rather than stealing. May also help to not mention the Deity you worship while doing so.
    Yeah that was my thought but I've already goofed up and mentioned her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurion 2 View Post
    Dergosh is never going to be too keen on someone else using his spells.
    What about someone else using teamwork to increase the rate at which Dergosh's spells take effect? Because that's pretty much what's happening. Like a free quicken that doesn't take a swift action and can take effect from areas Dergosh can't reach.

    Edit: If Merc's answer is still no on that, and according to Saintheart I don't count as a "willing target" for my own abilities even though I am myself a caster, I may have completely wasted a feat slot.
    Last edited by Zombulian; 2018-05-09 at 03:11 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deeds View Post
    Caster backstories require a reason as to why they can cast spells. Wizards study hard to learn spells. Sorcerers often learn of their powers and then hone them through traveling. Clerics use piety to find the gift of spells through the gods or their ideals. Druids shun deodorant until a riding dog appears and they learn Entangle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Zom, my imaginary hat is off to you. *Horns? *What horns? *It's just an unusual hairstyle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    There are certain advantages to a game being as badly written as 3.5.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    Well, the walls of the palisade are ten feet high and the towers twenty feet, so I'd say that combined, the gate's lintel and the gate itself don't exceed ten feet in height, so carry on.
    So we have the beginnings of a plan that doesn't involve potential mass property damage? Nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian View Post
    If Merc's answer is still no on that, and according to Saintheart I don't count as a "willing target" for my own abilities even though I am myself a caster, I may have completely wasted a feat slot.
    I'm not familiar with Spellthieves. Can Infusions be stolen? I have three per day, but only have plans for one at the moment.

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by almondsAndRain View Post
    I'm not familiar with Spellthieves. Can Infusions be stolen? I have three per day, but only have plans for one at the moment.
    I'm not quite sure. I don't think so RAW, but maybe Saintheart would allow it. I think the best case for it would maybe be if you infused something with the Spell Storing property, then I could maybe steal the stored spell?
    Quote Originally Posted by Deeds View Post
    Caster backstories require a reason as to why they can cast spells. Wizards study hard to learn spells. Sorcerers often learn of their powers and then hone them through traveling. Clerics use piety to find the gift of spells through the gods or their ideals. Druids shun deodorant until a riding dog appears and they learn Entangle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Zom, my imaginary hat is off to you. *Horns? *What horns? *It's just an unusual hairstyle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    There are certain advantages to a game being as badly written as 3.5.

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian View Post
    I'm not quite sure. I don't think so RAW, but maybe Saintheart would allow it. I think the best case for it would maybe be if you infused something with the Spell Storing property, then I could maybe steal the stored spell?
    Do you mean the Spell Storing Item infusion? The Spell Storing property is useless without a spell to put in it.
    I can use the infusion, but only with zero-level spells right now. It has a maximum spell level equal to half my artificer level. Also, it has an XP cost of (caster level X spell level), so whether I can even cast it right now depends on whether or not Saintheart rules a minimum XP cost.

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by almondsAndRain View Post
    Do you mean the Spell Storing Item infusion? The Spell Storing property is useless without a spell to put in it.
    I can use the infusion, but only with zero-level spells right now. It has a maximum spell level equal to half my artificer level. Also, it has an XP cost of (caster level X spell level), so whether I can even cast it right now depends on whether or not Saintheart rules a minimum XP cost.
    Yeah that's what I meant. The XP cost is indeed troubling though.
    Even if that worked though, would there be any sense in me stealing it? I could probably just take whatever item you infused and activate it myself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deeds View Post
    Caster backstories require a reason as to why they can cast spells. Wizards study hard to learn spells. Sorcerers often learn of their powers and then hone them through traveling. Clerics use piety to find the gift of spells through the gods or their ideals. Druids shun deodorant until a riding dog appears and they learn Entangle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Zom, my imaginary hat is off to you. *Horns? *What horns? *It's just an unusual hairstyle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    There are certain advantages to a game being as badly written as 3.5.

  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian View Post
    Yeah that's what I meant. The XP cost is indeed troubling though.
    Even if that worked though, would there be any sense in me stealing it? I could probably just take whatever item you infused and activate it myself.
    No, you'll have to steal the spell. The description says only I can use the item: "This infusion allows you to place a spell effect into an item to draw it forth later, at your command. The item becomes, in effect, a wand with a single charge, which only you can use."

    EDIT: Putting the Silent Portal cantrip into an item would work pretty well with the plan, actually. Just use it on the gate right before its closed. Ruk wouldn't have time to hide in the shed with Gakan, though.
    Last edited by almondsAndRain; 2018-05-09 at 05:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian View Post
    Yeah that was my thought but I've already goofed up and mentioned her.



    What about someone else using teamwork to increase the rate at which Dergosh's spells take effect? Because that's pretty much what's happening. Like a free quicken that doesn't take a swift action and can take effect from areas Dergosh can't reach.

    Edit: If Merc's answer is still no on that, and according to Saintheart I don't count as a "willing target" for my own abilities even though I am myself a caster, I may have completely wasted a feat slot.
    I kind of view a spellthief as a rogue that can nerf opposing spellcasters. Essentially what you are proposing, though, nerfs an allied spellcaster.

    Yes, I get the tactical considerations, but you're reducing my character's effectiveness by grabbing one of a precious few spell slots, the main usefulness of a cleric, in order to power your character.
    Dergosh the Loud M Half-Orc Cleric 3 | HP: 17/26 | Init +10 | AC 16 T11 FF14 (18/13/16) | Fort +5 Ref +3 Will +6 | Listen +1, Spot +4 | ATK +5* melee 1d8+3/x2, +4* ranged 1d6+3/x2 | Cleric Spells: 0--guidance, guidance, light, resistance; 1st- cause fear, doom, sonic blast D (DC 14), shield of faith; 2nd- bullís strength, sonic weaponD, spiritual weapon
    Domain ability: piercing scream (DC 14)
    *+1 with guidance

    Spoiler: Dergosh Character Sheet
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurion 2 View Post
    I kind of view a spellthief as a rogue that can nerf opposing spellcasters. Essentially what you are proposing, though, nerfs an allied spellcaster.

    Yes, I get the tactical considerations, but you're reducing my character's effectiveness by grabbing one of a precious few spell slots, the main usefulness of a cleric, in order to power your character.
    I'm... reducing your effectiveness... by... increasing your effectiveness?

    Seriously, reread your response because I'm confused. It's not like I'm taking your spells without permission. It's just that one of my abilities is that I can cast a spell for you. I don't understand how that nerfs you or reduces your usefulness.
    Last edited by Zombulian; 2018-05-09 at 06:14 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deeds View Post
    Caster backstories require a reason as to why they can cast spells. Wizards study hard to learn spells. Sorcerers often learn of their powers and then hone them through traveling. Clerics use piety to find the gift of spells through the gods or their ideals. Druids shun deodorant until a riding dog appears and they learn Entangle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Zom, my imaginary hat is off to you. *Horns? *What horns? *It's just an unusual hairstyle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    There are certain advantages to a game being as badly written as 3.5.

  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    For what it's worth, I'm not really getting the issue either.
    EDIT: Actually, I should elaborate. I'm not getting the mechanical issue. I understand the fluff issue, with a cleric being unwilling to give up his god's powers.
    Last edited by almondsAndRain; 2018-05-09 at 07:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian View Post
    I'm... reducing your effectiveness... by... increasing your effectiveness?

    Seriously, reread your response because I'm confused. It's not like I'm taking your spells without permission. It's just that one of my abilities is that I can cast a spell for you. I don't understand how that nerfs you or reduces your usefulness.
    Let's put the shoe on the other foot. Let's say in order to activate my ability to cast spells I have to take away one of your abilities, let's presume it's your sneak attack ability. You don't mind if I cast a spell and you lose your ability to do sneak attack damage until the next day, do you?

    Or perhaps I have an ability that drains your hit points and adds them to my total. It's not like I'm taking your hit points without permission, it's just one of my abilities that I can go into melee for you. That kind of nerfs you and reduces your effectiveness doesn't it?
    Dergosh the Loud M Half-Orc Cleric 3 | HP: 17/26 | Init +10 | AC 16 T11 FF14 (18/13/16) | Fort +5 Ref +3 Will +6 | Listen +1, Spot +4 | ATK +5* melee 1d8+3/x2, +4* ranged 1d6+3/x2 | Cleric Spells: 0--guidance, guidance, light, resistance; 1st- cause fear, doom, sonic blast D (DC 14), shield of faith; 2nd- bullís strength, sonic weaponD, spiritual weapon
    Domain ability: piercing scream (DC 14)
    *+1 with guidance

    Spoiler: Dergosh Character Sheet
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurion 2 View Post
    Let's put the shoe on the other foot. Let's say in order to activate my ability to cast spells I have to take away one of your abilities, let's presume it's your sneak attack ability. You don't mind if I cast a spell and you lose your ability to do sneak attack damage until the next day, do you?

    Or perhaps I have an ability that drains your hit points and adds them to my total. It's not like I'm taking your hit points without permission, it's just one of my abilities that I can go into melee for you. That kind of nerfs you and reduces your effectiveness doesn't it?
    But those examples don't fly, because you somehow seem to be assuming that I want to use my ability for the glory of my character or something. No. My character is support-based and accomplishes it by making your resources more effectively used. Is your ego tied to the idea that you are the one to cast the spell?
    Also, my Spellthief is a Trickster Spellthief. I'm barely a Rogue. I literally get 1d6 sneak attack total and no rogue-like skills. Your conception of what a Spellthief is doesn't change what my character is.
    If you don't want to take advantage of my ability to benefit our action economy as a party... ok I guess? I'll just be a weak Sorcerer until we come across a spellcaster enemy, and I don't know how commonly to expect that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deeds View Post
    Caster backstories require a reason as to why they can cast spells. Wizards study hard to learn spells. Sorcerers often learn of their powers and then hone them through traveling. Clerics use piety to find the gift of spells through the gods or their ideals. Druids shun deodorant until a riding dog appears and they learn Entangle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Zom, my imaginary hat is off to you. *Horns? *What horns? *It's just an unusual hairstyle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    There are certain advantages to a game being as badly written as 3.5.

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    I may be able to resolve this. I may have been a bit paranoid about caster supremacy, and I see the problem that Zomb has given the other caster in the party is an artificer. So look, I'll reverse my ruling that you can't steal your own spells or Sp abilities. Maybe that helps? On phone, will give better rationale later.
    Last edited by Saintheart; 2018-05-09 at 07:42 PM.

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    I may be able to resolve this. I may have been a bit paranoid about caster supremacy, and I see the problem that Zomb has given the other caster in the party is an artificer. So look, I'll reverse my ruling that you can't steal your own spells or Sp abilities. Maybe that helps? On phone, will give better rationale later.
    Thanks chief. That does help, at least with making me feel better about my Godsblood Spellthief feat.

    I really like Dergosh as a character and his fluff position is understandable - being suspicious of someone other than him casting spells granted to him by his god.

    But then it turned into an ideological debate where Merc's position seemed to be: No you can't cast my spell for me. That's stealing and you are making my character weaker.
    And mine was: What?
    Quote Originally Posted by Deeds View Post
    Caster backstories require a reason as to why they can cast spells. Wizards study hard to learn spells. Sorcerers often learn of their powers and then hone them through traveling. Clerics use piety to find the gift of spells through the gods or their ideals. Druids shun deodorant until a riding dog appears and they learn Entangle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Zom, my imaginary hat is off to you. *Horns? *What horns? *It's just an unusual hairstyle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    There are certain advantages to a game being as badly written as 3.5.

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian View Post
    But those examples don't fly, because you somehow seem to be assuming that I want to use my ability for the glory of my character or something. No. My character is support-based and accomplishes it by making your resources more effectively used. Is your ego tied to the idea that you are the one to cast the spell?
    Also, my Spellthief is a Trickster Spellthief. I'm barely a Rogue. I literally get 1d6 sneak attack total and no rogue-like skills. Your conception of what a Spellthief is doesn't change what my character is.
    If you don't want to take advantage of my ability to benefit our action economy as a party... ok I guess? I'll just be a weak Sorcerer until we come across a spellcaster enemy, and I don't know how commonly to expect that.
    I disagree, those examples are on point IMO. Your ability comes down to "my character gets to take your character's ability". How are my examples any different except that my character is getting to take your character's abilities? Are you OK with me taking your hit points? I mean, not for the glory of my character, but just because it more effectively uses my superior melee ability?

    If your argument is that you make my character better by casting his spells for him I should logically just have you take all his spell slots, no? If I had a class ability that let me steal a barbarian's limited rage abilities and use them for myself, am I making the barbarian more effective by raging for him? Lots of fun for me, not so much fun for the barbarian.

    If your argument is that the spellthief isn't a great class unless he can take someone else's resources I don't disagree with you.

    I personally don't really like to play ultra-optimized characters, but I do care if I am expected to severely nerf my character by giving away multiple (pick a number between 1 and all) spell slots and significantly diminish my character's capabilities.
    Dergosh the Loud M Half-Orc Cleric 3 | HP: 17/26 | Init +10 | AC 16 T11 FF14 (18/13/16) | Fort +5 Ref +3 Will +6 | Listen +1, Spot +4 | ATK +5* melee 1d8+3/x2, +4* ranged 1d6+3/x2 | Cleric Spells: 0--guidance, guidance, light, resistance; 1st- cause fear, doom, sonic blast D (DC 14), shield of faith; 2nd- bullís strength, sonic weaponD, spiritual weapon
    Domain ability: piercing scream (DC 14)
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  27. - Top - End - #87
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian View Post
    Thanks chief. That does help, at least with making me feel better about my Godsblood Spellthief feat.

    I really like Dergosh as a character and his fluff position is understandable - being suspicious of someone other than him casting spells granted to him by his god.

    But then it turned into an ideological debate where Merc's position seemed to be: No you can't cast my spell for me. That's stealing and you are making my character weaker.
    And mine was: What?
    Then you'll be happy for me to take your sneak attack ability and use it for you, no? Your ego isn't so tied to the idea that you have to be the one to make the sneak attack, is it?
    Last edited by Mercurion 2; 2018-05-09 at 08:22 PM.
    Dergosh the Loud M Half-Orc Cleric 3 | HP: 17/26 | Init +10 | AC 16 T11 FF14 (18/13/16) | Fort +5 Ref +3 Will +6 | Listen +1, Spot +4 | ATK +5* melee 1d8+3/x2, +4* ranged 1d6+3/x2 | Cleric Spells: 0--guidance, guidance, light, resistance; 1st- cause fear, doom, sonic blast D (DC 14), shield of faith; 2nd- bullís strength, sonic weaponD, spiritual weapon
    Domain ability: piercing scream (DC 14)
    *+1 with guidance

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  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    If your argument is that you make my character better by casting his spells for him I should logically just have you take all his spell slots, no?
    Ohhh ok. You don't know what action economy means. Yknow how there's a metamagic that lets you cast a spell as a swift action? And it costs 4 extra spell slots? That's because casting more spells in one round is good. I'll go further into this below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurion 2 View Post
    I disagree, those examples are on point IMO. Your ability comes down to "my character gets to take your character's ability". How are my examples any different except that my character is getting to take your character's abilities? Are you OK with me taking your hit points? I mean, not for the glory of my character, but just because it more effectively uses my superior melee ability?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurion 2 View Post
    Then you'll be happy for me to take your sneak attack ability and use it for you, no? Your ego isn't so tied to the idea that you have to be the one to make the sneak attack, is it?
    Mmm no. You're making false equivalencies. Sneak attack doesn't function on a use-by-use system, and hit points don't require actions.
    But to play with you in this space here, and make an actual equivalency, let's take Sneak Attack. Let's pretend that I have Sneak Attack and sneak attack has limited uses per day and takes a standard action to use, so I can only use it once per round. And in this scenario I can only use it 2 more times in this day. You, the friendly sneak-thief in the party, can steal or borrow sneak attack uses. We are fighting an enemy where it would behoove use to do as much damage in one round as possible, so you take 1 of my 2 uses of Sneak Attack, and we go and blast it down together. Make sense?

    Spells are different because they often do unique things, and comboing them can be useful. The problem with comboing a spell when you are just one caster is that you have to wait round-by-round to do so, and the battlefield makeup could change before the next round, or the spells simply wouldn't line up as optimally as you'd like duration-wise. So I, the Spellthief, can grab one of the spells that you would want to use, and cast it as if I were you (seriously, still has your caster level, save DC, metamagic, whatever). It's an exercise in teamwork. Not my character stealing your character's thunder and making you weaker.
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    Caster backstories require a reason as to why they can cast spells. Wizards study hard to learn spells. Sorcerers often learn of their powers and then hone them through traveling. Clerics use piety to find the gift of spells through the gods or their ideals. Druids shun deodorant until a riding dog appears and they learn Entangle.
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  29. - Top - End - #89
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    BluesEclipse's Avatar

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    To an extent, it does make sense to use the spellthief ability to take a buff that Dergosh could cast, in order to have Ruk cast it. Magic Fang would only last for one minute, Bless would only last one minute - so if we assume that those two spells are both being cast, then it makes more sense to be able to cast them more or less simultaneously as close to the start of combat as possible.

    But that's IF we assume both are being cast. We should be expecting at least one more encounter in the same day, when we track the bandits to their camp - it might not happen, but we probably should plan as if it will. Meaning that Dergosh would need to have spell slots available for whatever buffs or other spells would be used for both battles, plus possible healing needed between them. This, I think, is what Merc's looking at - not the viability of using the spell slots in a single battle, but the risk of burning too many resources too quickly.

    That being said, I do agree that we should keep positioning in mind, since Dergosh dropping a Bless on most or all of us would be far more useful at this level than Magic Fang. If Oleg and Svetlana can bar the door (or, for that matter, if Oleg chooses to stay and fight alongside us, then if just Svetlana can bar the door), then we could keep those of us not in the storeroom in the stable until they arrive, and then Three and Kuros could move to bar the gate while Dergosh and I move into melee.
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  30. - Top - End - #90
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    mad Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Thanks for the condescension. This will be my last post of the evening before I say something I regret further.

    You are right about one thing: sneak attack is an imperfect example since it is unlimited use per day. Barbarian rage is a much better analog. Do you think a barbarian would enjoy it if I used up his rage uses?

    You character isn't "casting for me". I am effectively reducing my number of spell slots and handing them over to your character; he is casting for himself. Positioning this as if this is a benefit to me and not for the benefit of your character is disingenuous at best.

    What do you think is a fair number of spell slots to reserve for your character each day? 50%? After all, that optimizes our action economy, (and of course has the added benefit of blowing through all my character's spell slots as fast as possible). Sure, I should give up half my spell casting ability and give it to your character.

    I refuse to feel bad about not nerfing my character in order to make yours more enjoyable to play. You decided how to design your character; I certainly wasn't consulted about being expected to give up half my spellcasting ability to make it work.

    EDIT: Clarify that this was not directed at you Blues. Your post came in as I was typing so was immediately before mine, but was not in response to your post.
    Last edited by Mercurion 2; 2018-05-09 at 10:24 PM.
    Dergosh the Loud M Half-Orc Cleric 3 | HP: 17/26 | Init +10 | AC 16 T11 FF14 (18/13/16) | Fort +5 Ref +3 Will +6 | Listen +1, Spot +4 | ATK +5* melee 1d8+3/x2, +4* ranged 1d6+3/x2 | Cleric Spells: 0--guidance, guidance, light, resistance; 1st- cause fear, doom, sonic blast D (DC 14), shield of faith; 2nd- bullís strength, sonic weaponD, spiritual weapon
    Domain ability: piercing scream (DC 14)
    *+1 with guidance

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