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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by BluesEclipse View Post
    To an extent, it does make sense to use the spellthief ability to take a buff that Dergosh could cast, in order to have Ruk cast it. Magic Fang would only last for one minute, Bless would only last one minute - so if we assume that those two spells are both being cast, then it makes more sense to be able to cast them more or less simultaneously as close to the start of combat as possible.

    But that's IF we assume both are being cast. We should be expecting at least one more encounter in the same day, when we track the bandits to their camp - it might not happen, but we probably should plan as if it will. Meaning that Dergosh would need to have spell slots available for whatever buffs or other spells would be used for both battles, plus possible healing needed between them. This, I think, is what Merc's looking at - not the viability of using the spell slots in a single battle, but the risk of burning too many resources too quickly.

    That being said, I do agree that we should keep positioning in mind, since Dergosh dropping a Bless on most or all of us would be far more useful at this level than Magic Fang. If Oleg and Svetlana can bar the door (or, for that matter, if Oleg chooses to stay and fight alongside us, then if just Svetlana can bar the door), then we could keep those of us not in the storeroom in the stable until they arrive, and then Three and Kuros could move to bar the gate while Dergosh and I move into melee.
    I agree. Bless is probably a better choice, and tbh the argument more turned into me defending the strategy of using my Steal Spell ability at all than in this very moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurion 2 View Post
    Thanks for the condescension. This will be my last post of the evening before I say something I regret further.

    You are right about one thing: sneak attack is an imperfect example since it is unlimited use per day. Barbarian rage is a much better analog. Do you think a barbarian would enjoy it if I used up his rage uses?

    You character isn't "casting for me". I am effectively reducing my number of spell slots and handing them over to your character; he is casting for himself. Positioning this as if this is a benefit to me and not for the benefit of your character is disingenuous at best.

    What do you think is a fair number of spell slots to reserve for your character each day? 50%? After all, that optimizes our action economy, (and of course has the added benefit of blowing through all my character's spell slots as fast as possible). Sure, I should give up half my spell casting ability and give it to your character.


    I refuse to feel bad about not nerfing my character in order to make yours more enjoyable to play. You decided how to design your character; I certainly wasn't consulted about being expected to give up half my spellcasting ability to make it work.

    EDIT: Clarify that this was not directed at you Blues. Your post came in as I was typing so was immediately before mine, but was not in response to your post.
    lol. I seriously don't see why you're taking this as affront to you personally. Like it's my master plan to replace you as a caster and steal all your spell slots.
    Believe what you want I guess.
    Last edited by Zombulian; 2018-05-09 at 10:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deeds View Post
    Caster backstories require a reason as to why they can cast spells. Wizards study hard to learn spells. Sorcerers often learn of their powers and then hone them through traveling. Clerics use piety to find the gift of spells through the gods or their ideals. Druids shun deodorant until a riding dog appears and they learn Entangle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Zom, my imaginary hat is off to you. *Horns? *What horns? *It's just an unusual hairstyle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    There are certain advantages to a game being as badly written as 3.5.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    I would much prefer for this argument to end now, and yes, this has devolved into an argument as both sides have used backhanded comments and innuendo to insult the other. Whether it was deliberate or an unintended consequence of writing out your emotions doesn't matter, shots were fired.

    @Zombulian, You are correct that utilizing Ruk's abilities as a spellthief will enhance Dergosh's spells in combat beyond what he alone would be able to do. Optimization strategies like that have been tried and tested on these boards time and time again to much popular acclaim. However, saying that another player's unwillingness to give your character their character's resources makes your character build a mistake is unfair.

    @Mercurion 2, You are also correct to say that Ruk shouldn't have free reign to drain away Dergosh's resources despite it being the 'tactically most superior' option. This is essentially an issue in communication where assumptions about what each player was okay with didn't match up. I would like to point out that giving a hard denial to the possibility of such cooperation occurring is a bit disheartening. I am not advocating to become Ruk's magical blood sack which he can sink his magical vampire fangs into if and when he pleases, but giving his character a chance to shine every once and a while shouldn't be too big a deal right? Teamwork is often a bit of give and take and can make the game that much more enjoyable. On that note I would like to say something more below.

    @ALL, This is a game. Games should be fun/challenging/relaxing experiences. Debates and discussion can, and in group games should, happen regularly. I just don't want to see feelings be hurt over a game. If we agree on nothing else, can we at least agree not to disrespect or attempt harm on one another?
    Avatar by MeanMrsMustard

  3. - Top - End - #93
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian View Post
    lol. I seriously don't see why you're taking this as affront to you personally.
    I dunno, do you think it could have anything to do with phrases such as

    "Seriously, reread your response"
    "Is your ego tied to the idea that you are the one to cast the spell?"
    "You don't know what action economy means"

    So how many of my spell slots should I reserve for your use each day?
    Last edited by Mercurion 2; 2018-05-09 at 11:24 PM.
    Dergosh the Loud M Half-Orc Cleric 3 | HP: 17/26 | Init +10 | AC 16 T11 FF14 | Fort +5 Ref +3 Will +6 | Listen +1, Spot +4 | ATK +5melee 1d8+3/x2, +4 ranged 1d6+3/x2 | Cleric Spells: 0--guidance, guidance, light, resistance; 1st- cause fear, doom, sonic blast D (DC 14), shield of faith; 2nd- bull’s strength, sonic weaponD, spiritual weapon
    Domain ability: piercing scream (DC 14)


    Spoiler: Dergosh Character Sheet
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurion 2 View Post
    I dunno, do you think it could have anything to do with phrases such as

    "Seriously, reread your response"
    "Is your ego tied to the idea that you are the one to cast the spell?"
    "You don't know what action economy means"
    I have no excuse for the tone, and I'm sorry about that.
    But for the first, I really was confused when you accused me of trying to weaken your character for the sake of mine. It didn't make sense to me because I'm a support character. My job is to help.
    The second I knew I would get flak for for obvious reasons, but I was still confused about why it would matter who was casting the spell if we were working as a team.
    For the third, I thought I had finally understood what the communication barrier was. If you do know what action economy is, then you had employed a plain strawman.

    So how many of my spell slots should I reserve for your use each day?
    That's the beautiful part. You don't have to reserve anything for me. I can help you combo with whatever spells you want me to, if you want me to.

    Quote Originally Posted by bcool999 View Post
    I would much prefer for this argument to end now, and yes, this has devolved into an argument as both sides have used backhanded comments and innuendo to insult the other. Whether it was deliberate or an unintended consequence of writing out your emotions doesn't matter, shots were fired.

    @Zombulian, You are correct that utilizing Ruk's abilities as a spellthief will enhance Dergosh's spells in combat beyond what he alone would be able to do. Optimization strategies like that have been tried and tested on these boards time and time again to much popular acclaim. However, saying that another player's unwillingness to give your character their character's resources makes your character build a mistake is unfair.
    You're right, that isn't fair if that's how it was taken. I was just growing concerned that I wouldn't be of any use because I considered myself a support type character and it seemed like Merc was completely denying me one of my main abilities to do so. Having a low number of slots per day that you'd rather hold onto is understandable, but the way it was phrased made me feel like a Medic in TF2 being told that I can't use my medigun and my character is bad if he's less useful when denied that. {edit: And more responsible for the emotional response, the implication that I was a jerk for wanting to use it.}

    @Mercurion 2, You are also correct to say that Ruk shouldn't have free reign to drain away Dergosh's resources despite it being the 'tactically most superior' option. This is essentially an issue in communication where assumptions about what each player was okay with didn't match up. I would like to point out that giving a hard denial to the possibility of such cooperation occurring is a bit disheartening. I am not advocating to become Ruk's magical blood sack which he can sink his magical vampire fangs into if and when he pleases, but giving his character a chance to shine every once and a while shouldn't be too big a deal right? Teamwork is often a bit of give and take and can make the game that much more enjoyable. On that note I would like to say something more below.
    This is also fair. I take a bit of issue with the passage I bolded because I personally don't think that I'm trying to shine when I consider what I'm doing to be a support role.

    @ALL, This is a game. Games should be fun/challenging/relaxing experiences. Debates and discussion can, and in group games should, happen regularly. I just don't want to see feelings be hurt over a game. If we agree on nothing else, can we at least agree not to disrespect or attempt harm on one another?
    You're right. I'm sorry I was abrasive, Merc.
    Last edited by Zombulian; 2018-05-10 at 12:12 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deeds View Post
    Caster backstories require a reason as to why they can cast spells. Wizards study hard to learn spells. Sorcerers often learn of their powers and then hone them through traveling. Clerics use piety to find the gift of spells through the gods or their ideals. Druids shun deodorant until a riding dog appears and they learn Entangle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Zom, my imaginary hat is off to you. *Horns? *What horns? *It's just an unusual hairstyle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    There are certain advantages to a game being as badly written as 3.5.

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Okay, chill time.

    What I see reading back through the last few posts - and I might be off base - is that we have here a difference which principally started as a difference in philosophy on how characters are effective. And my guess would be that if we were running at well above level 1 this wouldn't be anywhere near as much of a conflict, mainly because the spell slots would be more plentiful. But at level 1, it's trickier territory to manage since, as pointed out, the abilities are much lesser and taking 1 out of 3 uses of an ability for a given day is proportionally a bigger cost than taking out 1 out of 5 or 8 or so.

    The difference seems to come down to: being effective in this fight versus being effective for the whole day. Both of these viewpoints have merits and are arguably equal to my mind. You can't be effective for the whole day if you lose the first fight, but equally going nova for one fight and then having to go through the rest of the day naked is not terribly conducive to survival either. Both have points for and against, and you could literally stand here all day debating the issue if you wanted to, and at the end of the day you'd be no closer to a resolution of the issue.

    I might note that one concern here seems to be the semi-contemplated path that you guys will smash this group of raiders and then set out immediately for the camp they came from. I don't want to give things away, but I would say this much to that concern: what impression do you have that these bandits are on a timeclock or are expected back at a particular time of day or whatnot? These guys to your characters sound like bandit-y thugs, they're not SEAL Team Six. You might not need to go out in hot pursuit.

    I haven't known all of you long enough to gain your trust or start laying out harsh advice or anything like that, so I don't plan to start at this point. About the only observation I could make is this: most things in this world need compromise to function, generally around things that we can't control. Some of the things we can't control are the builds that other people have or whether other people want to say yes or no to our requests. Criticising other people for either of these decisions doesn't lead anywhere, because ultimately you don't get what you want.

    So it might help for the two of you to consider some sort of quid pro quo, not by way of your characters, but by way of a gentlemans' gentlepersons gentlebeings gentlehumanoids' reasonable people agreement. Maybe merc hands over spells on the understanding that Zomb will jump to his aid first if things go south. Or whatever. I wouldn't argue the point, guys, by the looks of it it's not likely one of you will convince the other -- mainly because this isn't an issue of one person being wrong or right. I can see both sides of the issue.

    EDIT: Dammit, don't go substantially resolving differences while I'm still typing replies out! It makes me look stupid to all the hot girls watching this thread!

  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    Okay, chill time.

    EDIT: Dammit, don't go substantially resolving differences while I'm still typing replies out! It makes me look stupid to all the hot girls watching this thread!
    What!? There are hot girls monitoring this thread? BACK! Back you harpies! I have a girlfriend, and she isn't above psychopathic killing sprees over jilted love!

    Spoiler: :P
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    But on a more serious note, I have seen tables dissolve over issues like this before. Something small that could have been discussed and settled blew up and snowballed way out of proportion. I am enjoying this game and this group too much to leave it walking on eggshells.
    Avatar by MeanMrsMustard

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by bcool999 View Post
    But on a more serious note, I have seen tables dissolve over issues like this before. Something small that could have been discussed and settled blew up and snowballed way out of proportion. I am enjoying this game and this group too much to leave it walking on eggshells.
    Indeed. I wanna see where this goes. Sorry about that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deeds View Post
    Caster backstories require a reason as to why they can cast spells. Wizards study hard to learn spells. Sorcerers often learn of their powers and then hone them through traveling. Clerics use piety to find the gift of spells through the gods or their ideals. Druids shun deodorant until a riding dog appears and they learn Entangle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Zom, my imaginary hat is off to you. *Horns? *What horns? *It's just an unusual hairstyle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    There are certain advantages to a game being as badly written as 3.5.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    And I apologize for escalating it far more than I intended. Further, I can see how one of my statements (having Ruk cast ALL of Dergosh’s spells) could have been interpreted to mean I didn’t understand action economy rather than the way I intended it as a counterpoint to the idea that I should be happy having someone else utilize my limited resources.

    This isn’t about not letting other characters shine, nor about not being a team player. I see those as essential functions of the cleric class as is, since a good portion of Dergosh’s spell slots will be utilized for party buffs and/or converted into dropping healing spells wherever and whenever.

    Saintheart is absolutely correct in saying that this is a far bigger issue at low levels when spell slots are scarce. So I’m not saying no forever, but I admit that it got my back up in the way that it was assumed that of course I should be all in on transferring my character’s capabilities.

    I disagree with the notion that this makes my character “better” except in the sense of a short term tactical advantage at the expense of longer term flexibility and potential healing capability. It allows the party to burn through my character’s spell slots at a faster rate, but whether that is better from a playability standpoint is questionable in my view. If I were able to steal a barbarian’s daily usage of rage, we’ve temporarily improved the party’s ability to inflict damage, but we’ve taken one of the barbarian’s key abilities, which isn’t particularly enjoyable for the barbarian’s player. Likewise, if we imagine a party with three spellthief’s, we’ve certainly got a kickass action economy (albeit quite briefly), but it is not a lot of fun for me to play.

    I think perhaps adding to this for me is the unintended consequence that due to our party construction I happen to have the only character that is capabable of sacrificing a limited resource to make this happen. This responsibility/requirement/burden—call it whatever you like—wasn’t contemplated when I put forth the character, so it is leaving me a little less than excited.
    Last edited by Mercurion 2; 2018-05-10 at 11:44 AM.
    Dergosh the Loud M Half-Orc Cleric 3 | HP: 17/26 | Init +10 | AC 16 T11 FF14 | Fort +5 Ref +3 Will +6 | Listen +1, Spot +4 | ATK +5melee 1d8+3/x2, +4 ranged 1d6+3/x2 | Cleric Spells: 0--guidance, guidance, light, resistance; 1st- cause fear, doom, sonic blast D (DC 14), shield of faith; 2nd- bull’s strength, sonic weaponD, spiritual weapon
    Domain ability: piercing scream (DC 14)


    Spoiler: Dergosh Character Sheet
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  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    I certainly agree the party makeup is not standard, and I will admit my part in that this makes things a bit trickier for some people in ways I honestly hadn't anticipated. About all I can suggest is that we all do a bit of what people in my neck of the woods call "suck it and see", i.e. let's see how we go; if the party structure really doesn't work out over the near-ish future we might look at giving people who ask a free reboot on their character to try something else. To use a cliche, you never know, you might work out alternative ways of dealing with these character hookups in interesting ways. Me, I'd rather run the game with you guys even if you eventually decide to pick other characters because your character submissions indicated to me you're pretty creative people all round, and that's not a common thing out here in the PbP world.

    Either way, can I just suggest that people bear some of these what I'll call structural issues in mind if and when the party gets into fights - i.e. that some people might need more help than might otherwise be necessary?

    Moving forward, it looks like you've got a reasonable plan of action in place. I'd say the finer details can be worked out in OOC, I'd intended to show your characters to their rooms for the night and drop some other interesting information you might want to look into if and when the fight's over and done. More about that in the coming day/s.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    That's why I said unintended consequence. Figuring out this implication ahead of time would have been far above and beyond my expectations; I don't think you could reasonably have been expected to have foreseen the issue.
    Dergosh the Loud M Half-Orc Cleric 3 | HP: 17/26 | Init +10 | AC 16 T11 FF14 | Fort +5 Ref +3 Will +6 | Listen +1, Spot +4 | ATK +5melee 1d8+3/x2, +4 ranged 1d6+3/x2 | Cleric Spells: 0--guidance, guidance, light, resistance; 1st- cause fear, doom, sonic blast D (DC 14), shield of faith; 2nd- bull’s strength, sonic weaponD, spiritual weapon
    Domain ability: piercing scream (DC 14)


    Spoiler: Dergosh Character Sheet
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  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    As a relatively neutral party who plays spellthief a lot, I can sympathise. It really is a horrendously weak class, despite the awesome fluff, and it's ability to do anything is entirely contingent on the generosity of others, be it the rest of the party in sharing spell slots, or the dm in throwing lots of spellcasters against them.

    Without that, they're basically a weaker rogue, or an even weaker sorcerer. Without that external support, they can be downright soul crushing to play. I've had to quit games before because I was a spellthief with no source of spells.

    Oh, spellthief. Why did they have to make you so ****?

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurion 2 View Post
    And I apologize for escalating it far more than I intended. Further, I can see how one of my statements (having Ruk cast ALL of Dergosh’s spells) could have been interpreted to mean I didn’t understand action economy rather than the way I intended it as a counterpoint to the idea that I should be happy having someone else utilize my limited resources.

    This isn’t about not letting other characters shine, nor about not being a team player. I see those as essential functions of the cleric class as is, since a good portion of Dergosh’s spell slots will be utilized for party buffs and/or converted into dropping healing spells wherever and whenever.

    Saintheart is absolutely correct in saying that this is a far bigger issue at low levels when spell slots are scarce. So I’m not saying no forever, but I admit that it got my back up in the way that it was assumed that of course I should be all in on transferring my character’s capabilities.

    I disagree with the notion that this makes my character “better” except in the sense of a short term tactical advantage at the expense of longer term flexibility and potential healing capability. It allows the party to burn through my character’s spell slots at a faster rate, but whether that is better from a playability standpoint is questionable in my view. If I were able to steal a barbarian’s daily usage of rage, we’ve temporarily improved the party’s ability to inflict damage, but we’ve taken one of the barbarian’s key abilities, which isn’t particularly enjoyable for the barbarian’s player. Likewise, if we imagine a party with three spellthief’s, we’ve certainly got a kickass action economy (albeit quite briefly), but it is not a lot of fun for me to play.

    I think perhaps adding to this for me is the unintended consequence that due to our party construction I happen to have the only character that is capabable of sacrificing a limited resource to make this happen. This responsibility/requirement/burden—call it whatever you like—wasn’t contemplated when I put forth the character, so it is leaving me a little less than excited.
    Completely understandable dude. Definitely not enough slots to go around at this level, I was concerned it'd be a forever thing. I could argue about how it makes your character better til the cows come home, but from a player fun perspective I can see where you're coming from.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjelfalconer View Post
    As a relatively neutral party who plays spellthief a lot, I can sympathise. It really is a horrendously weak class, despite the awesome fluff, and it's ability to do anything is entirely contingent on the generosity of others, be it the rest of the party in sharing spell slots, or the dm in throwing lots of spellcasters against them.

    Without that, they're basically a weaker rogue, or an even weaker sorcerer. Without that external support, they can be downright soul crushing to play. I've had to quit games before because I was a spellthief with no source of spells.

    Oh, spellthief. Why did they have to make you so ****?
    Honestly now that I think about it, the spell progression of the Trickster tacked onto a regular Spellthief would be A LOT more viable. Probably how they should have done it in the first place.
    The most success I've had with a Spellthief so far was Theurging, so I had plenty of slots to play with.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deeds View Post
    Caster backstories require a reason as to why they can cast spells. Wizards study hard to learn spells. Sorcerers often learn of their powers and then hone them through traveling. Clerics use piety to find the gift of spells through the gods or their ideals. Druids shun deodorant until a riding dog appears and they learn Entangle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Zom, my imaginary hat is off to you. *Horns? *What horns? *It's just an unusual hairstyle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    There are certain advantages to a game being as badly written as 3.5.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Oh good, everyone's getting along again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    I certainly agree the party makeup is not standard, and I will admit my part in that this makes things a bit trickier for some people in ways I honestly hadn't anticipated.
    It isn't really your fault, I think it's more of a side effect of the medium we're playing on.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjelfalconer View Post
    Oh, spellthief. Why did they have to make you so ****?
    Making mechanics that don't back up their fluff was WotC's special talent. :/

    @bcool999 Would you like Kuros to bring up the Silent Image idea, if it's still on the table? Three brought up a plan earlier, and I'd rather not steal any one else's thunder.
    Last edited by almondsAndRain; 2018-05-10 at 04:54 PM. Reason: formatting

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by almondsAndRain View Post
    Making mechanics that don't back up their fluff was WotC's special talent. :/
    Don't even get me started on the Truenamer.

    Quote Originally Posted by almondsAndRain View Post
    @bcool999 Would you like Kuros to bring up the Silent Image idea, if it's still on the table? Three brought up a plan earlier, and I'd rather not steal any one else's thunder.
    I don't know if Kuros would even be that knowledgeable about magic in the first place to suggest Silent Image. That is why I brought it up in the OOC to begin with. Feel free to snatch it!
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by bcool999 View Post
    Don't even get me started on the Truenamer.
    Prime example of why playtesting is important, right there.

    I don't know if Kuros would even be that knowledgeable about magic in the first place to suggest Silent Image. That is why I brought it up in the OOC to begin with. Feel free to snatch it!
    Right on, thanks.

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Thought it might be worth putting up a map of the salient part of Oleg's with grid coordinates for more precise positioning if you want it.

    If problems with seeing the image, try fullsizing your screen first - or let me know.

    Spoiler: Oleg tactical map
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  17. - Top - End - #107
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Additionally:

    I've been trying to think of a way to alleviate Ruk's difficulties on doing his character's signature thing without taxing the party, i.e. how to make a minor fix to the Spellthief.

    What I had in mind was an ability that would be in place until around level 4 or 5, whenever he starts to get his own spellcasting. It would amount to this: Steal Spell Energy From Minor Magic Item. Basically, from level one, the Spellthief starts his magic-thievery career by learning to draw on the magic inherent in scrolls and potions (or runes - see further down) - both divine and arcane. If the spell contained in a scroll or potion is level 0 or level 1, he can pull it as though he were using a Steal Spell on a spellcaster The tradeoff for this is that it destroys the scroll or potion it's drawn from. In the case of scrolls that use a level 2 spell or above, he can pull his maximum number of stolen spells from it in one hit, but the excess "levels" are lost. So if it was a Potion of Your Choice Of Level 3 Spell, and the Spellthief can have 2 stolen level 1 spells at a time, he can pull those 2 spells from the one potion, but the excess spell energy is lost and the potion is destroyed.

    This would also apply to that Forgotten Realms-specific form of magic called runes, which are explicitly spells cast as written runes and which I have a certain interest in (as you might garner from my signature). I love rune magic's flavour and some of its mechanics, and it might make some appearances through the adventure even though odds are on (due to Dergosh's dump stat ;)) your characters likely won't ever be using it.

    Anyway, the wider point being - this gives Ruk a resource other than spellcasters as such or spell effects or (Sp) abilities to get through his days - he can thieve the energy in a magic item. I doubt this will apply to Three's creations since these are infusions rather than spells as I understand it, but it'll give Ruk a little more versatility if the party runs across scrolls that nobody else really wants to use or hasn't got a use for. For example, he could take a Potion of Cure Light Wounds he's got, being wholly uninjured, and pull a Spellthief or Godsblood Spellthief spell out of it for combat.

    Thematically I'd say it also applies since the progression is stealing magical energy from unsuspecting bottles and pieces of paper to stealing magical energy off living beings. Sort of makes sense on how the spellthief would develop his powers, and it has a cost control in that you're still blowing potions or scrolls, it's just you're a little more versatile with them.

    Anyone have any thoughts about the balance implications on this? As said, I had in mind to nerf or remove it entirely around level 4 or 5 since spellcasting kicks in then, and it might smooth the way for our Little Dragon a bit...

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    (due to Dergosh's dump stat ;))
    “Not dump stat. Dergosh blames chronic and pervasive underfunding of orc academies. MAGA (Make All Green Again) orcs take all tributes and oil orc war machine while being actively hostile to orc sages and scholars, who not see a gold piece raise in decade. Poor Dergosh never have chance. #sad.”
    Dergosh the Loud M Half-Orc Cleric 3 | HP: 17/26 | Init +10 | AC 16 T11 FF14 | Fort +5 Ref +3 Will +6 | Listen +1, Spot +4 | ATK +5melee 1d8+3/x2, +4 ranged 1d6+3/x2 | Cleric Spells: 0--guidance, guidance, light, resistance; 1st- cause fear, doom, sonic blast D (DC 14), shield of faith; 2nd- bull’s strength, sonic weaponD, spiritual weapon
    Domain ability: piercing scream (DC 14)


    Spoiler: Dergosh Character Sheet
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercurion 2 View Post
    “Not dump stat. Dergosh blames chronic and pervasive underfunding of orc academies. MAGA (Make All Green Again) orcs take all tributes and oil orc war machine while being actively hostile to orc sages and scholars, who not see a gold piece raise in decade. Poor Dergosh never have chance. #sad.”
    This forum needs a like button.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    -Snip-
    I think it should be fine, balance-wise.
    Ruk can't steal spells from Three's items, like you said, because artificer items are neither arcane or divine, so you don't need to worry about that. The items she creates aren't infusions, though.

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    *Suggestion on giving Ruk a buff*
    Yeah that doesn't seem too unbalanced. Though it is somewhat funny that it is literally throw money at the problem until it goes away (At level 4-5). I was actually considering suggesting a far more radical change to the Spellthief but if this solves the issues great. Also, Ruk may want to buy Pearls of Power to give to Dergosh so he can give back what he steals.
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    I appreciate the buff, but how exactly would the item draining thing go away? Seems weird fluff-wise. Just stops coming into effect at a certain level? Or rather, I can't steal above a certain level?

    Quote Originally Posted by bcool999 View Post
    Yeah that doesn't seem too unbalanced. Though it is somewhat funny that it is literally throw money at the problem until it goes away (At level 4-5). I was actually considering suggesting a far more radical change to the Spellthief but if this solves the issues great. Also, Ruk may want to buy Pearls of Power to give to Dergosh so he can give back what he steals.
    True, but by the time we have funds for Pearls of Power I'll have my own spell slots :P
    Although his spells do progress faster...
    We'll figure it out. Also I'm not entirely sure it's necessary to feel like you guys have to cushion the spellstealing mechanic just so I feel better about my character. The point of using it is to help another caster. If he doesn't need it yet, it's whatever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deeds View Post
    Caster backstories require a reason as to why they can cast spells. Wizards study hard to learn spells. Sorcerers often learn of their powers and then hone them through traveling. Clerics use piety to find the gift of spells through the gods or their ideals. Druids shun deodorant until a riding dog appears and they learn Entangle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Zom, my imaginary hat is off to you. *Horns? *What horns? *It's just an unusual hairstyle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    There are certain advantages to a game being as badly written as 3.5.

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian View Post
    I appreciate the buff, but how exactly would the item draining thing go away? Seems weird fluff-wise. Just stops coming into effect at a certain level? Or rather, I can't steal above a certain level?
    In Vampire: the Requiem, young vampires can feed off of animals, but as they get older they have to feed off of humans. When they become old enough, they can only feed off of other vampires. Maybe it can be something similar?

    As Ruk gains power, he becomes too powerful to hold the stagnant magic within items. Whereas he used to be able to gently separate the magic from its container, any attempts to do so now result in him crushing the magic outright. His magic field/soul/whatever overwhelms that of the item. Would this work?

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    Quote Originally Posted by almondsAndRain View Post
    In Vampire: the Requiem, young vampires can feed off of animals, but as they get older they have to feed off of humans. When they become old enough, they can only feed off of other vampires. Maybe it can be something similar?

    As Ruk gains power, he becomes too powerful to hold the stagnant magic within items. Whereas he used to be able to gently separate the magic from its container, any attempts to do so now result in him crushing the magic outright. His magic field/soul/whatever overwhelms that of the item. Would this work?
    Hmm that's a pretty interesting idea actually.
    Funnily enough it seems like the vampiric aspect of spellstealing has been mentioned by metaphor a few times now and I never thought of it that way. I always imagined it (especially as a Trickster where you're also a decent caster in your own right) as being a Channeler who approaches magic in a different way, seeing the ley-lines of magical power connected to all who use it.
    Also! I just finished my last final of my college career. I'll be graduating tomorrow and I'll be able to put more time in here without feeling guilty

    Also in retrospect, I have a feeling that part of my vitriol directed at Merc was partially due to stress because I was arguing with him instead of working on my senior project Get it together Zomb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deeds View Post
    Caster backstories require a reason as to why they can cast spells. Wizards study hard to learn spells. Sorcerers often learn of their powers and then hone them through traveling. Clerics use piety to find the gift of spells through the gods or their ideals. Druids shun deodorant until a riding dog appears and they learn Entangle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel View Post
    Zom, my imaginary hat is off to you. *Horns? *What horns? *It's just an unusual hairstyle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    There are certain advantages to a game being as badly written as 3.5.

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian View Post
    Also! I just finished my last final of my college career. I'll be graduating tomorrow and I'll be able to put more time in here without feeling guilty
    Congratulations!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian View Post
    Hmm that's a pretty interesting idea actually.
    Funnily enough it seems like the vampiric aspect of spellstealing has been mentioned by metaphor a few times now and I never thought of it that way. I always imagined it (especially as a Trickster where you're also a decent caster in your own right) as being a Channeler who approaches magic in a different way, seeing the ley-lines of magical power connected to all who use it.
    Also! I just finished my last final of my college career. I'll be graduating tomorrow and I'll be able to put more time in here without feeling guilty
    First up, congratulations!

    And second: let's see how the ability works out in practice. Maybe we remove it at level 4 and maybe not, but either way you've got it to make life just a little less painful at the lower levels.

    As for the plan so I can adjudicate it - so I'm assuming that when the bandits ride in tomorrow, we've got:

    Three at W5
    Gakan at J12 in a pile of hides
    Ruk at L15 amongst a pile of hides
    Dergosh at M10
    Korlann at N10
    Kuros at V18 (when the gates are open, he'll be behind them - and with a lot of cover from the corner of the guesthouse)
    And Oleg at V19.

    The locking beam can be considered at V18-V19.

    When the bandits ride in, Three fires off her Silent Image (if she's succesful). Oleg and Kuros move to get the beam into place since they'll be under the cover of the illusion running from V12 to V20 and won't be seen by the bandits as they do. Which then leaves you with a signal to start things up: I'd suggest it's when Gakan or Ruk get uncovered or explode from hiding. Dergosh and Korlann charge out from the stable, Three pulls a crossbow and gets in position I assume, and Kuros gets involved as soon as he gets the locking beam into place.

    That about how the party intends to go about this?

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    That looks good on my end. Looking forward to the first combat! I also assume that if 5 bandits come we will be 1 away from that bounty?
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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Might be a question for IC, but I'd say that's right.

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Pretty much all comes down to Three's rolls to create the scroll/s now. Over to almonds.

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombulian View Post
    Also! I just finished my last final of my college career. I'll be graduating tomorrow and I'll be able to put more time in here without feeling guilty
    Congratulations. I hope you enjoy yourself today!

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    Pretty much all comes down to Three's rolls to create the scroll/s now. Over to almonds.
    Yup, here's hoping RNGesus is feeling kind today.
    Would you mind if I wrote out Svetlana bringing the firewood? There wouldn't be any dialogue or anything like that, it's just to condense the scroll making from three posts (Three goes outside->Svetlana gets wood, fire is lit->Three attempts to scribe) to one.
    Also, will there be posts after everyone gets up, but before the fight? If not, then Three casts Personal Weapon Augmentation on her crossbow to turn it into a Bane (Humanoid, Human) when the bandits are a couple of minutes away. It takes one minute to cast, so I'm mentioning it now.

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    Default Re: Kingmaker in the Forgotten Realms [OOC thread]

    Good luck on your UMD roll (that is the crafting roll for artificers correct?). Don't forget to consult your Magic Item Compendium for the latest in scroll crafting techniques.
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