Why don't heroes make sacrifices anymore? (Spoilers for Infinity War and others)

[Sinewmire]

Well...

Spoiler: Infinity War

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(While I'm on the topic, I'm not sure I agree with the sentiment that sacrificing a loved one is not a heroic sacrifice. I understand that it's different than sacrificing yourself, but I still think it falls under a form of self-sacrifice. It's not like it's an easy thing to do.)

Spoiler: Infinity War

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I'd say there's a world of difference between sacrificing a loved one (Thanos) and a loved one choosing to scrificing themself and asking for help (Vision, Gamora). I can agree that being forced to sacrifice a loved one is hard, it's still murder. And if you're willing to kill people against their will to save the universe... aren't you kinda the villain?

[Dr.Samurai]

Spoiler: Infinity War

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I'd say there's a world of difference between sacrificing a loved one (Thanos) and a loved one choosing to scrificing themself and asking for help (Vision, Gamora). I can agree that being forced to sacrifice a loved one is hard, it's still murder. And if you're willing to kill people against their will to save the universe... aren't you kinda the villain?

I meant in the context of what we're talking about, which is someone asking a loved one to kill them. It seems people were saying even in these cases (Wanda to Vision and Quill to Gamora) it's not a good or heroic thing, and I don't agree.

Thanos is killing someone against their will. Quill is killing someone that wants to die and made him promise to kill her. I still think what Quill is doing can be considered a heroic sacrifice.

[Devonix]

Spoiler: Infinity war and choice

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The movie seems to want to have the super heroes go through the suffering of making the choice to do a heroic sacrifice. But not wanting to tarnish the image of the heroes by having those sacrifices actually happen.

[Keltest]

Spoiler: Infinity war and choice

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The movie seems to want to have the super heroes go through the suffering of making the choice to do a heroic sacrifice. But not wanting to tarnish the image of the heroes by having those sacrifices actually happen.

Spoiler

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But... they did? Quill pulled the trigger. Wanda destroyed the mind stone. Strange handed over the Time stone.

[Devonix]

Spoiler

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But... they did? Quill pulled the trigger. Wanda destroyed the mind stone. Strange handed over the Time stone.

Spoiler

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The characters made the decisions to do the actions. But the effects of those actions were rendered irrelevant. Yes the emotional turmoil did happen, but our heroes still have the clean hands of not actually killing their loved ones in the eyes of the general audience.

[Kato]

I feel like I have a more fundamental question for op...
What do you mean, "anymore"? When was it common for the hero to sacrifice the life of an innocent to reach their goal? This is not something new, it was the norm for a long time and the outliers have always been a subject of debate. Of course risking or even sacrificing the lives of countless unnamed future victims is not smart but it is what nine out ten heroes do and have done for a long time.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I meant in the context of what we're talking about, which is someone asking a loved one to kill them. It seems people were saying even in these cases (Wanda to Vision and Quill to Gamora) it's not a good or heroic thing, and I don't agree.

Thanos is killing someone against their will. Quill is killing someone that wants to die and made him promise to kill her. I still think what Quill is doing can be considered a heroic sacrifice.

It is, but not so much on Quill's side (or Wanda's side) as in Gamora & Vision's side. They're the one choosing to put the greater good above their own lives. Quill and Wanda's is a sacrifice, and a big one indeed, because it takes a lot of effort to attempt to kill your loved ones, but it doesn't fall under the specific subset of Heroic sacrifice (which is laying down your life for others).

Let me be clear, I think the emotional and moral strength required are equivalent, and I do not deny the immense effort it would take, especially on the emotional side, but they can be classified separately from self-sacrifice.

Or, in other words, you and Sinewmire are probably not disagreeing on the substance of the actions, but in the classification & nomenclature.

Grey Wolf

[Malifice]

This seems to have come up a lot, and it's really starting to bother me.

There are many definitions for what a "good" person or character is, but one that is pretty much across the board, and well understood by almost everyone is: "Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others." It's one of the defining characteristics of heroes and demonstrates why they are a cut above the villains. They're not in it for themselves, they want to see justice done no matter the consequences to themselves.

So then, why do so many heroes nowadays refuse to make sacrifices? I have seen it time and again, and whenever the hero decides to give in and take the selfish route, it is always bad in the long run and for more people. I have a short list of examples with some pretty big spoilers, so be warned.

Spoiler: Example 1: Supernatural

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In Season 8, Sam and Dean discover "The Trials" which, when performed, will exorcise every demon ever. Since demons are pretty much the worst thing ever, and the cause of the majority of the brothers' problems, you'd think that would be a good thing to do, right? But no, as soon as Dean finds out the Trials will kill Sam, he begs him not to do it. He lets all the demons in the world live, just so he can keep his brother. Seems pretty selfish to me.

Later on in Season 10, Death offers to take Dean far away so that he won't hurt anyone because of the Mark of Cain. The Mark can't be removed without releasing The Darkness, so it's pretty important that Dean takes care of it.The price for Death doing this is Sam's death. Once again, Dean refuses to kill his brother, and so the Mark is released along with The Darkness, which ends up being bad for pretty much everyone. Again.

Spoiler: Example 2: The Vampire Diaries

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I haven't seen all the seasons yet, but in Season 3, we learn that if an Original Vampire dies, every vampire who was ever turned from their blood line will die as well. Great, says I, just stake them all and then the entire vampire problem is solved. But no, that would mean killing the Salvatore brothers and Caroline and other "good" vampires (even though they have all murdered people, and most likely will again). The correct sacrifice would be to give up your loved ones so that everyone else's loved ones can live, but the thought never even crosses their minds.

Spoiler: Example 3, and Reverse Example 1: Avengers: Infinity War

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Infinity war has a bunch of examples of this, as well as one, what I'll call, reverse example.

Let's start with Gamora. So Thanos is torturing her sister, Nebula, in order to force her to give up the location of the Soul Stone. If Thanos gets the Soul Stone, he will become way more powerful. And if he gets all 6 stones, he kills half the Universe. Undeniably bad for everyone. Yet Gamora chooses to give him the location to save her sister, who has a 50/50 chance of dying anyway, if she gives in. The sacrifice should be to let her sister die so that everyone else's sister can live.

Next, we have Star Lord. When a bunch of the heroes are on Titan, they hatch their plan to remove Thanos' Infinity Gauntlet so that he won't be able to, you know, kill half the universe. And they almost do it. But then Star Lord realizes that Thanos has killed Gamora (more on that later) and in a fit of anger, botches the team's chance of stopping Thanos. The sacrifice should be to keep his vengeance in check (like he advises Drax to do many times) so that Thanos can't kill any more loved ones.

Then we have Scarlet Witch. We find out that her magic is powerful enough to destroy the Mind Stone, preventing Thanos from getting all 6 Infinity Stones, but that will kill Vision in the process. Vision is more than willing to make the sacrifice, but Scarlet Witch is not. The sacrifice would be to give up your loved one so Thanos can't kill everyone else's loved ones.

Finally, we have Dr. Strange. Thanos is in the process of killing Iron Man when Dr. Strange stops him. He offers him the Time Stone for Iron Man's life, again, allowing Thanos to kill half the universe. The sacrifice should be to keep the Time Stone hidden so that Thanos is powerless. Granted, this is after Dr. Strange discovers the 1 way that the heroes win, so it might not actually be a bad decision, but that remains to be seen.

Then we have the reverse example. When Thanos and Gamora travel to Vormir, Red Skull tells them that you cannot get the Soul Stone unless you make a true sacrifice, that is, giving up someone that you truly love. Gamora (and the audience) is shocked to find that Thanos actually truly loves her, and is able to retrieve the Soul Stone by killing her. Why? Why is the villain able to make the hard choices to get the result he desires, when none of the heroes can do the same thing? It seems so totally backwards, that I can't understand it. Yes, it makes for great story-telling, and I really enjoyed this movie, but so many decisions really bothered me.

These are just a few examples, and I'm sure there are many more out there. Feel free to post more examples, but I'm mostly just wondering why so many heroes are unable to do the things that heroes are usually recognized for.

(Letting someone else be tortured and die) or even out right (murdering them) is not 'making a personal sacrifice.'

Vision and Gamorra on the other hand, did make such a sacrifice (at least Gamorra tried to, via Quill).

[Malifice]

I meant in the context of what we're talking about, which is someone asking a loved one to kill them. It seems people were saying even in these cases (Wanda to Vision and Quill to Gamora) it's not a good or heroic thing, and I don't agree.

Thanos is killing someone against their will. Quill is killing someone that wants to die and made him promise to kill her. I still think what Quill is doing can be considered a heroic sacrifice.

Neither Vision or Gamorra actually wanted to die. You're aware of this right?

They only ask to be killed to save the universe. Because they're good people prepared to make personal sacrifices for others.

Unfortunately for them, good people also dont go around killing other people. The people that actually killed them (or attempted to) only did so as an absolute last resort and when no other option was reasonably open to them (i.e. Thanos was right there, and the victim - whom both of them loved and vice versa - was begging them for it). And even then they were very cut up about it, to say the least.

More than one hero flat out refused to do it. Because good people dont murder people, even when they ask them to. They look for another way. A good way. Preferably one that involves the good person making a personal sacrifice to help others, instead of engaging in murder

[Cheesegear]

I think what Thanos does, is actually the other meaning of the word 'sacrifice'. Go look it up. The word has two meanings. And the other meaning fits Thanos' character much better...Because that's what he actually does.

Where you kill a goat so the Gods make it rain.
Except the difference is that Thanos really, really, really likes his goat. Because the Gods demanded not just any goat, but his favourite goat. Which tricks people into thinking it's the 'good' kind of sacrifice. Except it's not. It's really not.

[Dr.Samurai]

Neither Vision or Gamorra actually wanted to die. You're aware of this right?

Yes, they did. That's why they asked the people closest to them to kill them.

If there was another way to stop Thanos that they could see then they likely would have gone with that option. No one wants to die.

But in the situation that they found themselves in, they chose to sacrifice themselves. So yes, they wanted to die. It wasn't done against their will. It was what they asked for. They wanted to be killed rather than allow Thanos to get his hands on the Stones.

That said... you're honing in on the wording which isn't necessary. The point is that Quill is not imposing death on Gamora the way Thanos is. In one circumstance, she is demanding that Quill kills her. In another, she is trying to prevent Thanos from killing her.

That's the difference.

They only ask to be killed to save the universe. Because they're good people prepared to make personal sacrifices for others.

So you're saying people don't "want" things. They just ask for stuff for the sake of other stuff.

I think you're saying the same thing I'm saying but just avoiding the word "want" for some reason.

[Talakeal]

Yes, they did. That's why they asked the people closest to them to kill them.

If there was another way to stop Thanos that they could see then they likely would have gone with that option. No one wants to die.

But in the situation that they found themselves in, they chose to sacrifice themselves. So yes, they wanted to die. It wasn't done against their will. It was what they asked for. They wanted to be killed rather than allow Thanos to get his hands on the Stones.

That said... you're honing in on the wording which isn't necessary. The point is that Quill is not imposing death on Gamora the way Thanos is. In one circumstance, she is demanding that Quill kills her. In another, she is trying to prevent Thanos from killing her.

That's the difference.

So you're saying people don't "want" things. They just ask for stuff for the sake of other stuff.

I think you're saying the same thing I'm saying but just avoiding the word "want" for some reason.

Being willing to go through with something =/= wanting to do something.

[Frozen_Feet]

... if you're willing to kill people against their will to save the universe... aren't you kinda the villain?

*sigh*

Let's get the trivialities out of the way first: yes, Thanos is a villain in context of Infinity War.

But that's not a general answer to the question.

For a general answer, you first need to answer what moral and practical basis exists for the action taken. Overall, in fiction, it is not at all odd to find heroes killing people for much pettier reasons than saving the universe. See, for example, practically any war movie. I'll leave it as an exercise to you to determine why Captain America in First Avenger is justified in killing a couple of Nazis but Thanos isn't in wiping out half the planetary population.

[Mordar]

At least in terms of the Avengers (and superheroes in general), this is addressed.

Heroes will sacrifice themselves to save others (Captain America: "...lay down on the wire for the other guy...").

Heroes will do everything they can to stop others from having to sacrifice themselves (Iron Man: "I'd cut the wire", but he'd also take a nuke into a hole in the sky expecting to not survive, saving others).

Cap may understand that if Thanos gets Vision's gem half the world dies. Cap understands that he doesn't have a prayer against Thanos. Cap still fights Thanos, because by God he's not going to stand by and watch Vision die while there is breath in his body to stop it. Now it would be interesting to see what happens in a situation where Cap has the power to destroy the gem...because that would force a decision that doesn't allow Cap to do his best and fail (try to stop Thanos) and do so without having had any option that would impact the end game.

Re: Gamora and Vision "wanting" to die...

I think it is safe to say neither wanted to die, but both were willing to die because the situation demanded it (in their opinion). So in the statement "I want to die because if I don't die right now bijillions of other people will", that qualifier is pretty darn important.

It's like if I put "...flavored with deadly poison in a cone made from your favorite comic book and placed on an island surrounded by maneating fish and in the direct path of a meteor just large enough to destroy anyone on the island" as a qualifier on "Do you want some ice cream". That might change your answer.

- M

[Tvtyrant]

This seems to have come up a lot, and it's really starting to bother me.

There are many definitions for what a "good" person or character is, but one that is pretty much across the board, and well understood by almost everyone is: "Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others." It's one of the defining characteristics of heroes and demonstrates why they are a cut above the villains. They're not in it for themselves, they want to see justice done no matter the consequences to themselves.

So then, why do so many heroes nowadays refuse to make sacrifices? I have seen it time and again, and whenever the hero decides to give in and take the selfish route, it is always bad in the long run and for more people. I have a short list of examples with some pretty big spoilers, so be warned.

Spoiler: Example 1: Supernatural

Show

In Season 8, Sam and Dean discover "The Trials" which, when performed, will exorcise every demon ever. Since demons are pretty much the worst thing ever, and the cause of the majority of the brothers' problems, you'd think that would be a good thing to do, right? But no, as soon as Dean finds out the Trials will kill Sam, he begs him not to do it. He lets all the demons in the world live, just so he can keep his brother. Seems pretty selfish to me.

Later on in Season 10, Death offers to take Dean far away so that he won't hurt anyone because of the Mark of Cain. The Mark can't be removed without releasing The Darkness, so it's pretty important that Dean takes care of it.The price for Death doing this is Sam's death. Once again, Dean refuses to kill his brother, and so the Mark is released along with The Darkness, which ends up being bad for pretty much everyone. Again.

Spoiler: Example 2: The Vampire Diaries

Show

I haven't seen all the seasons yet, but in Season 3, we learn that if an Original Vampire dies, every vampire who was ever turned from their blood line will die as well. Great, says I, just stake them all and then the entire vampire problem is solved. But no, that would mean killing the Salvatore brothers and Caroline and other "good" vampires (even though they have all murdered people, and most likely will again). The correct sacrifice would be to give up your loved ones so that everyone else's loved ones can live, but the thought never even crosses their minds.

Spoiler: Example 3, and Reverse Example 1: Avengers: Infinity War

Show

Infinity war has a bunch of examples of this, as well as one, what I'll call, reverse example.

Let's start with Gamora. So Thanos is torturing her sister, Nebula, in order to force her to give up the location of the Soul Stone. If Thanos gets the Soul Stone, he will become way more powerful. And if he gets all 6 stones, he kills half the Universe. Undeniably bad for everyone. Yet Gamora chooses to give him the location to save her sister, who has a 50/50 chance of dying anyway, if she gives in. The sacrifice should be to let her sister die so that everyone else's sister can live.

Next, we have Star Lord. When a bunch of the heroes are on Titan, they hatch their plan to remove Thanos' Infinity Gauntlet so that he won't be able to, you know, kill half the universe. And they almost do it. But then Star Lord realizes that Thanos has killed Gamora (more on that later) and in a fit of anger, botches the team's chance of stopping Thanos. The sacrifice should be to keep his vengeance in check (like he advises Drax to do many times) so that Thanos can't kill any more loved ones.

Then we have Scarlet Witch. We find out that her magic is powerful enough to destroy the Mind Stone, preventing Thanos from getting all 6 Infinity Stones, but that will kill Vision in the process. Vision is more than willing to make the sacrifice, but Scarlet Witch is not. The sacrifice would be to give up your loved one so Thanos can't kill everyone else's loved ones.

Finally, we have Dr. Strange. Thanos is in the process of killing Iron Man when Dr. Strange stops him. He offers him the Time Stone for Iron Man's life, again, allowing Thanos to kill half the universe. The sacrifice should be to keep the Time Stone hidden so that Thanos is powerless. Granted, this is after Dr. Strange discovers the 1 way that the heroes win, so it might not actually be a bad decision, but that remains to be seen.

Then we have the reverse example. When Thanos and Gamora travel to Vormir, Red Skull tells them that you cannot get the Soul Stone unless you make a true sacrifice, that is, giving up someone that you truly love. Gamora (and the audience) is shocked to find that Thanos actually truly loves her, and is able to retrieve the Soul Stone by killing her. Why? Why is the villain able to make the hard choices to get the result he desires, when none of the heroes can do the same thing? It seems so totally backwards, that I can't understand it. Yes, it makes for great story-telling, and I really enjoyed this movie, but so many decisions really bothered me.

These are just a few examples, and I'm sure there are many more out there. Feel free to post more examples, but I'm mostly just wondering why so many heroes are unable to do the things that heroes are usually recognized for.

Because then they have to retire characters who make money. Both Disney Star Wars and Disney Marvel have had major "don't ever die if you can avoid it" speeches recently. Marvel also had several attempts to sacrifice individuals fail, showing the ineffectiveness of those strategies in a world where they have been very effective (Avengers for instance).

The point is the bottom line.

[Darth Ultron]

Because then they have to retire characters who make money. Both Disney Star Wars and Disney Marvel have had major "don't ever die if you can avoid it" speeches recently. Marvel also had several attempts to sacrifice individuals fail, showing the ineffectiveness of those strategies in a world where they have been very effective (Avengers for instance).

Though, it is more then likely that in Infinity War 2 most, of not all, of the original Avengers will die or at least ''retire''. To more get rid of the current actors, then the characters. There is a chance that they might want to do the ''new'' versions of the classic characters..you know to be so cool.

So they will have Thor Girl. And Falcon becomes the new Captain America. And they have Iron Woman. And a Woman Hulk. And a new, younger sexier more um ''strong'' Black Widow.

Give them each a movie....and if it does bomb, they can always bring back the classic character(but with a new actor..wink wink).

So we might get some hero self sacrifice...

[137beth]

Though, it is more then likely that in Infinity War 2 most, of not all, of the original Avengers will die or at least ''retire''. To more get rid of the current actors, then the characters. There is a chance that they might want to do the ''new'' versions of the classic characters..you know to be so cool.

So they will have Thor Girl. And Falcon becomes the new Captain America. And they have Iron Woman. And a Woman Hulk. And a new, younger sexier more um ''strong'' Black Widow.

Give them each a movie....and if it does bomb, they can always bring back the classic character(but with a new actor..wink wink).

So we might get some hero self sacrifice...

In the comics, don't most of the "replacement' characters eventually get re-replaced by the original ones?

[Keltest]

In the comics, don't most of the "replacement' characters eventually get re-replaced by the original ones?

Yes and no. The original ones are still around, but theyre off soul searching, or retired, or whatever else it is they do when they aren't super-heroing. They don't come in and reclaim their names from their replacements, although they may steal the spotlight.

[Wardog]

If you're willing to sacrifice someone else to achieve your mission, chances are you're the villain.

Or any officer or NCO in any military anywhere.

[Malifice]

Yes, they did. That's why they asked the people closest to them to kill them.

No, they didn't want to die. If they wanted to die, they would have done it themselves.

They were offering themselves up as a heroic sacrifice. Because they're good people.

Luckily the people around them were also good people, and good people don't kill other good people to save the world unless there is absolutely no other option (and even then it's quite likely they wont be able to do it).

I'm not sure about you, but I would have found it very jarring indeed if any of the Avengers took Vision up on his suggestion when he proposed his own sacrifice.

Vision: ''Destroy the Stone and we all live.''
Cap/ Stark/ Thor: ''Sounds good to me buddy, any last words? (buries axe in Visions face)''

I'm not saying such an act isn't practical or effective; we're discussing whether good people could do such an act. Clearly they can (both Quill and Wanda both attempted to do just that) but only as an absolute last resort, when no other option reasonably presents itself, and after all other options have been tried and failed.

A good person would rather sacrifice their own life (heroic sacrifice) to prevent Thanos. As most (indeed every) Avenger all tried to do. It wasn't until Thanos was right there, and they realised there was no other way of stopping him, that Wanda and Quill both (extremely reluctantly) took Vision and Gamorra up on their offers.

You'll also note that the narrative was very clear that when they did so (When they demonstrated to Thanos they were prepared to kill the one the love ín order to save the Galaxy) he wasn't mad. In fact, he stopped each time they tried it to comment on just how impressed he was with what they were doing.

In other words, the Evil villain was impressed with the hero killing someone he loved 'for a greater good'. The reason being is that doing so is evil. The narrative (via Thanos' dialogue) was clear on this.

Thanos pauses to congratulate the Quill and Wanda on becoming (and acting) much as he would. As a monster prepared to kill the one you love for a higher purpose. The villain.

[Lvl45DM!]

Or any officer or NCO in any military anywhere.

Yeah.
A villain.

No but seriously, soldiers sign up with the expectation of being sacrificed to save others, thats sorta the point.

[Dr.Samurai]

No, they didn't want to die. If they wanted to die, they would have done it themselves.

Vision is unable to destroy the Mind Stone. Only Wanda can do it. Gamorra does try to kill herself later. The reason she asks Quill for his help is because presumably if Thanos has her to lead him to the Soul Stone, then she probably isn't in a position to take her own life.

I'm not sure why you're trying to strip context from my use of the word "want". Obviously this is a last resort effort, a back against the wall, no other way, we have to do this to stop Thanos decision. But it is still a choice. By all means ignore the word "want" and substitute "prefer", "chose", "asked", "requested", etc. The point is that it is different to what Thanos is doing and shouldn't be dismissed as a heroic sacrifice on the parts of Quill and Wanda.

They were offering themselves up as a heroic sacrifice. Because they're good people.

Luckily the people around them were also good people, and good people don't kill other good people to save the world unless there is absolutely no other option (and even then it's quite likely they wont be able to do it).

I'm not sure about you, but I would have found it very jarring indeed if any of the Avengers took Vision up on his suggestion when he proposed his own sacrifice.

Vision: ''Destroy the Stone and we all live.''
Cap/ Stark/ Thor: ''Sounds good to me buddy, any last words? (buries axe in Visions face)''

Yeah, that would have been uncharacteristic. I think that's obvious. Where you and I disagree is that when Wanda assists Vision in his heroic sacrifice (a sacrifice that is otherwise heroic according to you, and one that he wants to do but can't do on his own), it suddenly becomes an evil act.

I'm not saying such an act isn't practical or effective; we're discussing whether good people could do such an act.

Not really what I'm discussing. To me it's pretty obvious that they can. I was drawing a distinction between Thanos sacrificing Gamorra, and Quill killing Gamorra. I don't think they are the same, and I think Quill's action can be considered a heroic sacrifice. He is giving up the thing probably most precious to him in his life, but he isn't doing it for himself, he's doing it for Gamorra, who made a choice that she, as the only person that can lead Thanos to the soul stone, would rather die than serve that purpose, and she asked Quill to make that happen if she couldn't.

You are essentially taking away agency from both Vision and Gamorra by getting hung up on the word "want". They both made a choice. In the moment that I'm referring to (where Wanda and Quill attempt to kill them) they want to die. ***Quill and Wanda wouldn't take the actions they do if Gamorra and Vision didn't want it***.

Clearly they can (both Quill and Wanda both attempted to do just that) but only as an absolute last resort, when no other option reasonably presents itself, and after all other options have been tried and failed.

A good person would rather sacrifice their own life (heroic sacrifice) to prevent Thanos. As most (indeed every) Avenger all tried to do. It wasn't until Thanos was right there, and they realised there was no other way of stopping him, that Wanda and Quill both (extremely reluctantly) took Vision and Gamorra up on their offers.

Correct. None of this is in dispute. In fact, I made similar points in my first post...

You'll also note that the narrative was very clear that when they did so (When they demonstrated to Thanos they were prepared to kill the one the love ín order to save the Galaxy) he wasn't mad. In fact, he stopped each time they tried it to comment on just how impressed he was with what they were doing.

In other words, the Evil villain was impressed with the hero killing someone he loved 'for a greater good'. The reason being is that doing so is evil. The narrative (via Thanos' dialogue) was clear on this.

Thanos pauses to congratulate the Quill and Wanda on becoming (and acting) much as he would. As a monster prepared to kill the one you love for a higher purpose. The villain.

Put the Thanos kool-aid down for a second. He's a delusional narcissistic psychopath. You're not supposed to learn lessons from Thanos. He doesn't perceive reality through a similar lens to Malifice. Thanos thinks killing half the people in the universe is a good solution to the problem of resource scarcity. He thinks he loves Gamorra. He lets heroes live that will undoubtedly thwart his efforts in the next movie. The guy is not with it. I don't care that he sees a reflection of himself in Wanda's sacrifice, or Quill's sacrifice. He is wrong, and you are wrong for equating them as well. It simply is not the same thing.

If Vision's sacrifice of himself is heroic and good, but can only be done through Wanda's efforts, then it can (and will be) argued that Wanda's reluctant and heart-breaking efforts are also good and heroic.

But you argue that they are evil, with little to back it up beyond "Thanos thinks so".

[Goblin Slayer]

Spoiler: my hero academia

Show

ummm i dunno if the op has seen the anime or read the manga but all might is pretty much the self sacrificing hero seeing as he got a prediction about his death that no matter how his sidekick tries to alter the outcome with his clairvoyance but all might still he comes out to be a pillar of hope to the world. he literally knows there will be one last battle that he will be killed in such a gruesome way his sidekick was not willing to tell him how. also his side kick knew the out come of trying to save a young girl from the yakuza would mean his death and he did it anyways.

i thin op is basically cherry picking stuff that the heroes seems to not make sacrifice or just did not partake any medium that had a self sacrificing hero. also willingly sacrificing people even if they are willing does not make it your sacrifice it makes it theirs.

[Dr.Samurai]

also willingly sacrificing people even if they are willing does not make it your sacrifice it makes it theirs.

So to be clear... you're saying that when Wanda destroys the Mind Stone, and Vision in the process, she has not sacrificed anything?

I don't dispute that Vision is making the ultimate sacrifice. But in the case of reluctantly killing your (willing) loved one, I don't see how the argument can be made that you have not sacrificed something...

[Malifice]

So to be clear... you're saying that when Wanda destroys the Mind Stone, and Vision in the process, she has not sacrificed anything?

I don't dispute that Vision is making the ultimate sacrifice. But in the case of reluctantly killing your (willing) loved one, I don't see how the argument can be made that you have not sacrificed something...

Yes. Vision was the one making the sacrifice; not Wanda.

Ditto Gamora and Quill.

You're missing a key element of the narrative of that film - killing people for the greater good is wrong. It's the central motive and justification of the protagonist and villain. He does so on his daughter and half the universe. Its expressly repudiated by all the heroes. When they do attempt to engage in the act, it's not only as last resort, but the villain and protagonist Thanos takes time to congratulate them on it, and each time it proves to be ultimately pointless or negated by Thanos.

Its reinforced by heroes refusing to let others die and capitulating to the villain instead (Loki, Gamorra, Strange).

Killing someone else you love isn't heroic self sacrifice even if they ask you to do it, or it's for some sort of 'greater good'. If you want to frame it as such be my guest but the movie was at great pains to say otherwise.

[Dr.Samurai]

Yes. Vision was the one making the sacrifice; not Wanda.

Ditto Gamora and Quill.

Simply not true. You were hung up on the word "want" earlier and now I guess you're tripping up over "sacrifice" as well...

You're missing a key element of the narrative of that film - killing people for the greater good is wrong. It's the central motive and justification of the protagonist and villain. He does so on his daughter and half the universe. Its expressly repudiated by all the heroes. When they do attempt to engage in the act, it's not only as last resort, but the villain and protagonist Thanos takes time to congratulate them on it, and each time it proves to be ultimately pointless or negated by Thanos.

It's not the same thing.

Gamora and half the universe are not willingly sacrificing themselves to Thanos to save the rest of the universe. Killing half the universe is not a "last resort" to saving the universe from resource scarcity.

Thanos is insane and delusional. It's not the same thing the heroes are doing. I don't know why you keep equivocating here.

Killing someone else you love isn't heroic self sacrifice even if they ask you to do it, or it's for some sort of 'greater good'.

So you keep saying...

If you want to frame it as such be my guest but the movie was at great pains to say otherwise.

No it doesn't. You're making a moral argument. The movie shows us that even with personal sacrifice (assisted or otherwise), it may not be enough to defeat the big evil. That's not the same as saying it is wrong or evil to assist Vision in sacrificing himself.

There was never a question of destroying the Time Stone, Strange won't allow it. All Thanos has to do is get that stone and then he can undo any "sacrifice", whether it's personal or assisted. That includes Gamorra's sacrifice had it been successful, and we saw that happen with Vision's sacrifice. So what is the "moral lesson" there? It's the same. If the villain has enough power then nothing the heroes do matter. It's not commenting on whether it's evil or not to grant Gamorra's wish.

You don't derive evil from whether something is successful or not. Or maybe that's the argument you're making?

[Lethologica]

Yes. Vision was the one making the sacrifice; not Wanda.

Ditto Gamora and Quill.

You're missing a key element of the narrative of that film - killing people for the greater good is wrong. It's the central motive and justification of the protagonist and villain. He does so on his daughter and half the universe. Its expressly repudiated by all the heroes. When they do attempt to engage in the act, it's not only as last resort, but the villain and protagonist Thanos takes time to congratulate them on it, and each time it proves to be ultimately pointless or negated by Thanos.

Its reinforced by heroes refusing to let others die and capitulating to the villain instead (Loki, Gamorra, Strange).

Killing someone else you love isn't heroic self sacrifice even if they ask you to do it, or it's for some sort of 'greater good'. If you want to frame it as such be my guest but the movie was at great pains to say otherwise.

I didn't think I would say this about Infinity War, but the movie is more complex than that.

Trading lives doesn't work, in the sense that Thanos trivially overcomes it. Neither does not trading lives. Infinity War, part one, is partly a meditation on the spectrum of futile heroism: every hero is pushed to their last resort, and it still fails. We have heroes refusing to trade lives for emotional, principled, and utilitarian reasons; we have heroes resolving to trade lives for emotional, principled, and utilitarian reasons. The same heroes take different positions at different times in the movie when driven by different forces. Those who argue for sacrifice don't consistently lose the moral argument, and those who argue against it aren't consistently more effective.

Thanos is, like most Marvel villains, a dark inversion of heroic traits. That means heroic traits and acts can also be villainous. It does not mean those traits and acts cannot be heroic.

Beyond that...the text is not presumptively infallible. The movie can say something is or is not heroic self-sacrifice, and we can disagree. You can't go from "the movie was at great pains to say [killing someone else you love isn't heroic self-sacrifice]" straight to "Killing someone else you love isn't heroic self sacrifice" without any additional steps.

[Niek]

The perfect should never be allowed to be the enemy of the good. Seeking a better way is all well and good, but if the chips are down and you still havent found one, you need to make do with the options you have.