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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Devil

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    Default V's Gender Debate II

    Seeing as the original thread is nearly 50 pages long, I thought it would be a good idea to start a new one. I hope that this isn't something only mods are supposed to do...

    Anyway, a lot of the old thread was taken up by (a) people who understandably didn't want to read the whole thread posting things that had already been said several times before and (b) other people noting how annoying that was. :P Philip actually gave a good summary of almost all of the arguments made thus far on page 32, but of course the problem there is that people wouldn't read that far. I'm hoping that by starting this thread off with a summary of the collected evidence on the first page, maybe I can keep this thread from being quite so cluttered. So, starting with philip's summary:

    Quote Originally Posted by phlip
    General: "-us" suffix is common in male Roman names, therefore Male
    Counter: V isn't Roman, why should Roman naming conventions apply?
    Also, note that we've since seen evidence that real-world naming conventions may not apply in OOTS.

    General: V is occasionally referred to, sometimes to hir face, as either male or female. S/he objects to neither.
    See #9 #87 #111 #135 and possibly others.
    Actually, it's only in front of V in #9 and #135; further, in the former V is still entranced and may not have heard Roy, and in the latter (s)he might not have been paying terribly close attention to the shopkeeper. Even if he noticed and is male, he might not bother correcting a stranger he'll likely never see again anyway.

    Also, note that Rich has stated that this only reflects the characters perceptions.

    General: The bottom of V's body is square, like the male characters, not round like the female. Therefore Male
    Counter: Rich has addressed this one directly, saying the robes s/he wears cover any distinguishing features. Plus, in #200, Miko was revealed to be female, and she also looks square with her robe (this may in fact be a reference to this argument).

    General: Rich has been quoted referring to V as 'he', therefore Male
    Counter: Rich is playing with us.
    Also, when questioned about this, Rich has noted that the English language often uses the pronoun "he" when no gender is specifically known. In addition: this, and the general status of women as the "marked gender" may explain why Vaarsuvius is refered to as if he is male more often than as if she is female. (Side note: the fact that being female is often treated as an exceptional case, despite the fact that half of humanity is female, is just one illustration of how the English language is oh so very stupid. I blame the fact that it developed naturally instead of being designed. Note also how this linguistic convention reflects a cultural bias.)

    #3: V is happily talking with Haley about her lime green Boots of Speed. Therefore Female
    Counter: V may be "metrosexual", or otherwise care about fashion. Or s/he may be simply agreeing for the sake of discussion (as one would say "Uh-huh... Interesting." to a friend if they were talking about something you were not interested in)

    #20: V's quote is rather macho. Therefore Male
    Counter: Again with the gender stereotyping. V could be a macho female. I'm not even going to mention the stereotyped "proofs" anymore.
    To give a broader impression of what philip is talking about here, I'll just say that people often say, essentially, "It's obvious from his/her behavior that V is (fe)male!" I think the simple fact that this argument is made by both sides of the debate rather clearly shows that it is flawed. :P Besides which, it may be unreasonable to expect elves to conform to human gender stereotypes.

    Still, I'll address a few specific instances that have come up that have more specific counterpoints, in addition to the already noted danger of gender stereotyping:

    Argument: No man would care about doilies.
    Counterargument: V says "My preliminary inquest", suggested no preexisting knowledge; this was something (s)he researched at Roy's request. True, one could argue that most men wouldn't be willing do that, but one could also make the case that using a pastry decoration thingy to find ULTIMATE COSMIC POWER is kind of a "guy" response.

    Argument: No self-respecting man would wear a circlet. That's so girly.
    Counterargument: A mideivel fantasty land just might have different fashion standards than the ones you're familiar with, y'know. Plus, that could be an awesome Headband of Intellect, in which case V would likely wear it regardless of how it looks. In any case, it keeps his/her hair out of his/her eyes.

    #25: V is covering hir eyes while Elan runs around naked, while Haley (later) admits to being interested. Therefore Male
    Counter: V is highly sexually disciplined (which is reasonable, since s/he seems disciplined in most other respects). Or s/he doesn't swing that way.

    #28: When Haley says V was interested in Elan's "weapon of choice", Roy and Belkar look shocked. Therefore Male.
    Counter: It just shows Roy and Belkar think at this point that V is male. Belkar's "I always suspected" could be taken as "I always suspected V was gay" or "I always suspected V was female", either way as it was a misunderstanding anyways it is still unconfirmed suspicion. And in the latter case, it is just an example of even the characters not knowing V's gender.

    #35: When Haley's top came undone, V was not watching excitedly with the rest of the group. Therefore Female
    Counter: V may not have been nearby at the time to notice. Also, see #25
    I'll just note that it seemed clear to me that Roy left V on lookout as he went to see what was up. In that case, V didn't see anything and had no chance to react in any fashion.

    #43 and on: Zz'dtri is male, so should V. Therefore Male
    Counter: Durkon is male and Hilgya is female - so this isn't a hard rule. And even if it was, V may be the exception.

    #123: Haley asks V to share the room with her, while all the boys share the other room. Therefore, Female
    Counter: She might just not have wanted the room to herself, and trusted V the most to not do unspeakable things to her at night.
    Personally, I assumed that there were four beds to a room, so Haley had to choose someone to sleep with her. She might then reasonably choose V over the others even if she thought he were male. But maybe she just did not want to sleep alone. Or maybe she thinks V is, or might be, female. Regardless, this is another case that only speaks to someone's perception of V.

    #123 again: When Haley shows V her gemstones, The rest of the group is not surprised by V"s comment that s/he has a set of hir own. Therefore Female
    Counter: As well as the usual it-only-shows-their-perception claim, they may have been too enthralled in the imagining ("remembering"?) of a topless Haley to notice.

    #152: V is shot in the chest with an arrow, and doesn't seem to mind that much. Therefore Male
    Counter: While in real life such a shot would probably hurt a female more, I know of no such rule in D&D.

    #154: V's familiar is male, but it was argued both ways what implications this has for V's gender.

    #186: While V is nude behind the dragon's tail, you can see hir shoulder and the top section of hir chest - and it looks distinctly flat. Therefore Male
    Counter: When Hilgya is shown nude in #83 you can see just as much of her chest and it looks flat also, while she definately is curvy while clothed. Also, V might be flat-chested.
    Rich has also noted that, however consistant his style of drawin men and women might usually be, if he deliberately created an androgenous character, obviously he would bread his own rules. At best, one might conclude that V was not specifically designed as a woman.

    Did I miss anything?

    While I'm at it:
    Instrip references to V's androgyny:
    #87: V doesn't enter either the male or female restrooms.
    #107: Belkar refers to V as "ambiguously-gendered"
    #173: V is referred to as "sir or madam", and V uses the gender-inspecific "their" to refer to hirself.
    #177: It is revealed that Belkar doesn't know V's gender either.
    #186: V is shown nude, but concealed behind a dragon's tail.
    Let me now further discuss the rest of the Order's and Rich's perceptions of Vaarsuvius's gender, and how they may have changed over time.

    Several people have suggested that Rich at first designed V with a specific gender in mind. I think that V was first created as a male. That's how the rest of the party consistantly refers to him/her (on the rare occasions that they hint at V's gender), and it seems unlikely that Roy would call Vaarsuvius "V-Man" if he thought that V might be female. Now, granted, that only proves what they think, BUT: If Rich really wanted to confuse readers on the matter, it should have been less consistant. If one were only to go by what's in the strip, one might well have just concluded that he was male at least until Belkar's "ambiguously gendered" comment in #107 or even until the shopkeeper's use of "she" in #135. Even then, you'd think the people V travels with would know better than some stranger. One of the reasons it's so debatable here is because of Rich's comments on how this only demonstrates the characters' perceptions; I imagine that many people who only read the strip (I wonder how much of the readership that is?) think V is male. In particular, Roy's use of a male nick-name for V suggests to me that Rich hadn't decided to make V so ambiguous yet. And I think it was only after a question prompted by said nickname that Rich started with the obfuscation.

    That's not to say, however, that V is really male. Rich could still reveal her to be a female within the strip, and it wouldn't contradict anything we've seen so far. And indeed, he might choose to do so at some point, having himself abandoned the idea of V as specifically male. Although he says he'll never tell.

    As for the characters:

    As I said, Roy's use of "V-Man" seems to indicate that Roy is convinced V is male, or at least sometimes forgets that he doesn't really know. It's possible that the others went along with this assessment, thinking that Roy maybe knew something they don't. However, Belkar, at least, seems to have his doubts about this: He checks V's reptilian anatomy in #177 to try to find out for sure. I wonder: does V-lizard realize that Belkar is trying to sex it (that sounds dirtier than it is), and thus that Belkar is uncertain of its sex?

    Based on the fact that V is identified as both male and female by different people in the strip, we can conclude that (s)he does not look (by stick figure standards) or sound distinctly masculine or feminine.

    Other things that have been mentioned many times:
    • Maybe V is a hermaphrodite/is asexual/is a enuch/changes genders spontaneously due to a bizarre magical incident.
    • What if V were to put on the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity that Elan found? Maybe no one would even be able to tell the difference!

    One more thing I'd like to note, because it hasn't been mentioned yet. V has been referred to as male by the other party members on several occasions. However:
    • Soon after Roy calls Vaarsuvius "V-man", V identifies a belt that changes the wearers gender.
    • In the strip before Elan calls V "he", V conveniently doesn't need to use the bathroom.
    • Belkar refers to Vaarsuvius as "ambiguously gendered" a few strips prior to using male pronouns to refer to V.

    Now, that's just... well, as Jerry Seinfeld put it, "I'm not sure what it is, but it's somethin'."

    Wow, this wound up really long. I may edit this a bit later.
    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    Abstract positioning, either fully "position doesn't matter" or "zones" or whatever, is fine. If the rules reflect that. Exact positioning, with a visual representation, is fine. But "exact positioning theoretically exists, and the rules interact with it, but it only exists in the GM's head and is communicated to the players a bit at a time" sucks for anything even a little complex. And I say this from a GM POV.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    If you've played Metroid, Samus Aran is female. Actually, in the first game's manual, Samus' gender was never stated. The only way to find out was to beat the game within certain time limits and completion percentages. Depending upon how well you did, she would take off her helmet or suit after the credits.

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    Ogre in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    Good analogy Jothki

    Anyways, I always thought that V was female, even since I read the first strip. I don't know why. Just instinct I guess. Could be because her attitude and mannerisms are very akin to a female elf wizard in my first D&D game. Not to mention that I cannot think of a male voice for V. Even if V is later revealed to be a male, the voice I hear will still be female. Simple as that.

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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    I would like to put my (completely not based in fact) vote in for female. For some reason, ever since the first strip I thought of V as female. It was only by reading the FAQ and later forums I discovered that this might not be the case...

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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    Ah, my first post. Surely, at some point, I will look back upon this day with nostalgia. Or possibly some other, more negative emotion.

    I have read the entirety of the previous thread; no mean feat, but it leads me to believe I have formulated a decent theory... a theory hitherto only seen in brief flickers, glossed over in the heat of debate.

    No conclusion has been reached on V's sex. If V was originally meant to be either, it is clear this has been subsumed under a cloud of ambiguity, and no longer applies. All arguments have been countered. V has been referenced as male, female, and "I don't know". V has not shown any objection to being referred to as either sex, despite seeming to be the kind of person who enjoys that kind of small triumph.

    I pondered this, and then remembered the mutability of the kind of universe we're dealing with. This universe's state is not concrete, but instead formed by the DM.

    Having recently read the Sequel to the Big Blue Book, one suggestion within it came to mind; that details are mutable in the face of what is best for the entertainment value of the game. As is written in the book, the journey to a dungeon from a town may have taken three days previously, but it is free to become shorter if the opportunity for an interesting chase scene between them appears.

    So, my theory is thus; Varsuuvius is not male, and nor is the elf female. However, neither is the wizard both, or neither! Varsuuvius is male or female, or indeed any other sexual definition, as serves. In other words, the spellcaster's sex is plot morphic.

    To explain; whichever is best for the story, whichever brings the most humour in a given situation; that is the sex, or lack thereof, which V, temporarily, is. If it serves the greater goal of humour for V to be female, then she is, as in the bedroom fiasco. If it's better for V's gender to be a mystery, as in the case of Belkar's inquisitiveness, then that's what s/he is in that case.

    Now, to sit back and watch my arguments get shot down.

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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    I'd like to add two points:

    1. V-man. This might be Roy using a pun. Woman/V-man. Just a thought?

    2. As someone said on page 4x in the old thread, maybe V just never checked the box for male female on it's chracter sheet? After all it did not name its familiar, remeber?

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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    hmf, "it"....anywaysjukashi is right.
    through i see on v as a man, the voice i imagene for v is...my own reading voice. (not the voice when i read, the voice i hear in my brain when i read)
    Horses have an even number of legs. Behind they have two legs, and in front they have fore legs. This makes six legs, which is certainly an odd number of legs for a horse. But the only number that is both even and odd is infinity. Therefore, horses have an infinite number of legs.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    an interesting point to be raised is that Roy (and everyone else, for that matter) stops referring to V as "V-Man" after the dragon incident.
    Quote Originally Posted by warty goblin View Post
    Blights are halted by the heroic, self-sacrificial actions of a couple of dudes. Throwing them into a land containing the ur-example of the modern pulp fantasy warrior is rather like tossing a sponge in the Pacific and wondering if it'll get wet.

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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    Quote Originally Posted by Seraph
    an interesting point to be raised is that Roy (and everyone else, for that matter) stops referring to V as "V-Man" after the dragon incident.
    They only call him/her V-man once, in the ninth strip.

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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    Likely mentioned, but 'man' is rather gender neuitral nowadays; ala "hey, man" and "can you pass me some of that dragon, man? that's good guano" ; well, not evident from those examples, but I've seen it and used it to refer to any gender.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    SamuraiGirl

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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    Great job with the summary! Must have taken awhile. :)

    I'm curious, does anyone know if the time when Roy stopped saying things like 'V-Man' and 'It's all you, dog!', etc. coincided with the time people first started asking questions about his/her gender on the forum? I still say he was originally intended to be male, by I agree with Jukashi that V's assumed gender is now being determined by whatever's funniest at the moment. Since that also seems to be Rich's policy on DnD rules, etc. it makes perfect sense to me. So far now I don't see any grounds for people to argue that he's definitely male or female, since that will be determined if/when Rich decides to tell us, and any "evidence" we get between now and then is just him toying with us. (Though I will probably continue to call V 'he', for convenience....referring to a person as 'it' is kind of dehumanizing, and things like 'hir' or whatever make it sound like I'm calling him a shemale or something. :D )
    Google query for the Giant's posts, for those of us who think they're way more interesting than yet another speculation thread but don't have time to read every thread on the forum to find one he's posting in.

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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    And we don't want to dehumanize (deelfize?) Vaarsuvius, lest we get one of her invoices!

    btw, yes, I said 'her'. I started seeing V as female and I'll keep defending this although it's true that there isn't definite evidence for or against.

    (although this is off-topic, I'd also defend that Belkar is not evil, although the apparently massive evidence that says it is.)
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    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    Quote Originally Posted by referee
    And we don't want to dehumanize (deelfize?) Vaarsuvius, lest we get one of her invoices!

    btw, yes, I said 'her'. I started seeing V as female and I'll keep defending this although it's true that there isn't definite evidence for or against.

    (although this is off-topic, I'd also defend that Belkar is not evil, although the apparently massive evidence that says it is.)

    Yes, for example, Rich himself ;)

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    No good shall come from this gender debate. However it sorta morbidly fun to watch so please get started ;D.

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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    In the latin/fantasy naming system, -us almost always indicates being a male. It just doesn't seem like a girls name
    Quote Originally Posted by HerrTenko View Post
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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    I'll bring out a horse again:

    It's like Pat from SNL. You're not supposed to know. The fun comes from the debate, and whatever's implied can go both ways, forming a double entendre with either gender or orientation.

    *Desert Island Castaway Pat Sketch (Paraphrased)*
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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    I just want to say one thing: You say "Well obviously in the early strips V was meant to be male." But many, many people, who started with those early strips, just assumed V was female, while reading those early strips, so this isn't a very convincing arguement. Now, I didn't come to the forums or FAQ until I read through the entire strip up to the 200's, and in my mind V was always female, there was never a doubt, despite her being called "V-man" and "dog" and some of the characters referring to her as male or ambiguous.

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    The_Shadow
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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    ...But, as has been mentioned, this is completely inconclusive for anyone but you. Because many others, including myself, have likewise seen V as male from day one, without a doubt.

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    Miniature Giant Space Hamster in the Playground Administrator
     
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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    A cat is penned up in a steel chamber, along with the following diabolical device (which must be secured against direct interference by the cat): in a Geiger counter there is a tiny bit of radioactive substance, so small that perhaps in the course of one hour one of the atoms decays, but also, with equal probability, perhaps none; if it happens, the counter tube discharges and through a relay releases a hammer which shatters a small flask of hydrocyanic acid.


    Now tell me, without opening the box, is the cat alive or dead?


    The cat is both alive and dead, at the same time.


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    I therefor state that V is both male and female, right up till the time that Rich decides to 'open the box', so to speak.

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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    There where some (in my mind)bastards who actually performed the experiment once. The cat was found hiding in the closet after the box had been sealed with it inside.

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    Miniature Giant Space Hamster in the Playground Administrator
     
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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    What? You mean someone actually tried to perform this experiment? On a living cat? This is supposed to be a theoretical analogy/metaphor.

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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    Guess why I call them bastards. The cat apparently thought the same since it went from the sealed box into the closet through some obscure twist in the fabric of time and space, or something anyway.

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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawhide
    What? You mean someone actually tried to perform this experiment? On a living cat? This is supposed to be a theoretical analogy/metaphor.
    I think Schrodinger created the analogy just to prove a point. More than likely though, someone has done it.

    But how does a radioactive isotope's improbability have to do with V's gender?
    An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.

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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    We won't know V's gender until "the box" is opened.

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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    What's... in... the box!?

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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    V's true gender. But I think that box is sealed with a force field and surrounded by a anti-magic field a hundreth of an inch away.

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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyrath
    V's true gender. But I think that box is sealed with a force field and surrounded by a anti-magic field a hundreth of an inch away.
    So we're still at square one.

    I still say this theory is pushing it. It's good at postulating isotope decay, but I doubt V's gender can be measured in the same way. Unless V's somehow measurably radioactive, in which case I'll never post here again.

    Owie...
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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    Quote Originally Posted by Jukashi
    What's... in... the box!?
    I be hearin' o' another version o' this quote once. It be: "(pertaining to schrodenger's cat)Upon opening the box you either have a cat that is dead, or bloody furious."

    This post be a lot funnier in me head.
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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    Aah, you are familiar with Greebo I presume? The cat who ate a vampire when a bit pissed.

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    Default Re: V's Gender Debate II

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Shadow
    ...But, as has been mentioned, this is completely inconclusive for anyone but you. Because many others, including myself, have likewise seen V as male from day one, without a doubt.
    All I was saying was that, since people are on both sides of that exact same issue, there are NO strips in which V is obviously male or female. :P

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