V's Gender Debate II

[Amalthea]

This is Erk, from Fire Emblem. Look sorta similar? Yeah, purple hair, fair skin, red robe. No circlet though.

Although it is true that Fire Emblem has alot of male characters that look female (Lucius anyone?) Erk here is male, and his striking resemblence with V makes me want to say that V is male.

However, my first impression of V was female, and until I thought of Erk here, V was always female in my mind. So he a male who acts very female?

What is so very interesting about the whole argument over V's gender is how an argument is inherently linked to the argue-er's perceptions and experiences.
You can actually see people who use the same piece of 'evidence' to argue both points. It's quite humorous.

[Xilehxt]

Did someone already use Erk as an example? The post is so long, I just posted it up. Sorry if it's repeating.

[Beelzebub1111]

no, but you admited yourself that Erk looks like a chick at first. (Which I can totaly see) So the argument is moot

[Amalthea]

no, but you admited yourself that Erk looks like a chick at first. (Which I can totaly see) So the argument is moot

That's the fun part - all the arguments in this thread are moot. We won't know V's gender until when and if Mr. Burlew specifically reveals it. Until then, he's going to enjoy yanking everyone's chains.

What we DO know is the the following:
1. The majority of the party doesn't know V's gender. Haley might, the rest are clueless.
2. Roy thinks V can pass for female in a pinch. Whether he actually thinks V is female is unknown.
3. Elves have genders. (proof: Lirian in #196) While some arguments were made that she is a half-elf, her elf parent would still be required to have a gender and the appropriate anatomy in order to produce a half elf offspring.

That's about it. The rest is perception.

[Xilehxt]

No, that's not waht I meant and yes I agree that this argument means nothing. But in my perception, Erk was a male all the time, I just wanted to point out that they look really alike.

However, ever since I started reading OotS, I have always thought V was a female, until Belkar's comment about ambigous genderism. Wouldn't taking a vote reveal what V's first impression help in guessing at her gender?

[Kish]

No. Because, as far as determining Vaarsuvius' actual gender (if s/he has one), it doesn't matter what anyone but Rich Burlew thinks Vaarsuvius' gender is.

[Amalthea]

No. Because, as far as determining Vaarsuvius' actual gender (if s/he has one), it doesn't matter what anyone but Rich Burlew thinks Vaarsuvius' gender is.

Exactly.

My opinion is that V is male. While I admit my evidence is perception based, I also don't think it's been brought up yet.

I have observed that Haley does not seem get along well with other young women. There have been 4 major ones: Sabine "she's wearing red leather" (#45), the barmaid who wanted tips (Referenced in #46), Samantha (#160+), and Miko (since #200).

Granted, she hasn't interacted with any other young women in the comic. (I don't have the books.) She was too busy fighting with Sabine to interact with the Sylph the first time, and the second time she asks Roy if they can trust her. She never really interacted with Hilgya, either. The rest of the time she's got a 50/50 record on her opinion of the woman being accurate.

I'm getting to V's gender, I promise. My point is that Haley seems automatically suspicious and/or dislikes other women. She reminds me very strongly of Scarlet O'Hara (who couldn't stand other women, period, and viewed even her own sisters as competitors.)

But Haley gets along just fine with V. And that pushes me towards V being male.

[Big_Jake]

I think that the naming mechanism is a poor way to judge gender. Consider the following names:

Kelly
Robin
Casey
Scout
Kimball
Shannon

I've known men and women with these names.

[Tarlonniel]

Seems to me that Haley had perfectly good reasons for disliking all four of the above women - two were evil, one is a jerk, and the last demanded money ;)

[dragonfly83h]

Well one things for sure, shes only half-elf

What makes you think (s)he is not a full elf? Explaination, please?

[Kalai_Eljahn]

What makes you think (s)he is not a full elf? Explaination, please?

She's half camel. ;)

When reading this, Vaarsuvius severely reminded me of myself with a slightly lower charisma, so I will think of her as female until either of us is proven male.

Just my not very useful thoughs.

[kimana]

Well, my first reaction was that V is female, but there is more to it than that...
In my stories I have a species with gender so ambiguous that they divide the world into "has borne children" and "has not borne children" if at all. Possibly because I am female, I caught myself making almost all members of this species that I used as characters be referred to as "she" unless noting otherwise mattered (e.g. marriage). As such, if I see V as "female" then it is more likely an extension of this than of her actually seeming female. :P As such, I argue that for V it doesn't matter. ;) Also, it's possible that for elves the gender system works differently as far as physique and social norms that we can't even say that V is male or female at all.

As for Haley rooming with V, elves don't really sleep and V is pretty sane so Haley probably doesn't care...elves are built differently, V is married, and they aren't sleeping in the same room technically, and it beats sleeping alone. I haven't seen Haley obviously sleeping away from the party when not in an inn, so she may not mind sleeping with a sane male, even if V is male.

(to make it more fun, my character kimana appears very female, but is actually totally genderless, so she's kinda an anti-V...not that any of you really cared to know that)

[WeaponMasterLDO]

I've always thought of V as a female, it wasn't until I read the FAQ that I realized there could be a question about it. My reasoning is that if Rich had a 4:1 male ratio he would get attacked by Mr Rodriguez. And we all know there is nothing scarier than an angry lawyer right? RIGHT?

[Kitty_Kat]

For goodness' sake, people! Vaarsuvius is a boy! Look at all the oots comic strips. Does it say anywhere that he is a girl? No. It has always refered to him as a boy. So why the debate?

[Carrion_Humanoid]

V is a Woman, and this proves ithttp://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=123 oh wait. . . no it dosent, well it kinda does because they think that H and V are talking about there size. . . i guess

[triffid]

For goodness' sake, people! Vaarsuvius is a boy! Look at all the oots comic strips. Does it say anywhere that he is a girl? No. It has always refered to him as a boy. So why the debate?

Because some people don't think "it says so because I say so" is an adequate standard of proof.

You haven't been here long, have you? ;)

[Devils_Advocate]

Well, the comics don't say that Vaarsuvius is a girl, but they don't say that he's a boy either. Granted, characters who know V refer to him/her as if he is male, but...

There is one strip in which someone refers to Vaarsuvius as though V is female: a shopkeeper refers to V as "she". Of course, said shopkeeper is clearly a low-Wisdom individual who doesn't know V, but I believe it's the only time we see a pronoun applied to V when (s)he has the opportunity to hear it, and (s)he doesn't object. Not that that actually proves anything. But then, that disclaimer applies equally well to all of the evidence regarding Vaarsuvius's gender...

V is called "sir or madam" by a mount-parking attendant.

Belkar refers to V as "ambiguously gendered" and attempts to discern its sex, demonstating that his use of male pronouns to refer to V does not indicate certainty on his part on the subject.

And, of course, there's what Rich says on the matter in the FAQ.

That's why the debate.


Kitty_Kat, as the Giant recently did with the many people who e-mailed him a decoding of Haley's garbled speech, I must inform you that you have not noticed anything special that escaped everyone else, and that if you thought so, it was rather foolish of you. It's a bit sad that there isn't really a polite way to say that, but there it is.

Frankly, why didn't it occur to you that reading this thread might clear up why there is any confusion about V's gender? (And if you did read the thread, why ask a question the answer to which has been covered many times over, eh?)

[Rusty]

To touch further on the shopkeeper strip, I think it should be noted that V looks unquestionably annoyed by their stupidity, and - quite possibly offended and the "she" comment. There's no proof on the latter, but it's certainly a possibility that should not be ignored. (As for The Giant's usage of 'he' when referring to V, that may - as most know - just be the usage of proper grammar. 'Men' could refer to 'men and women', after all!)

Though, I'm not sure if this issue has been addressed (I would assume so?), and it is mildly off topic, but I can't help but ask it...Why is V's hair purple? All of the other OotS members have normal colored hair. I don't doubt the possibilities of dyes, but I am questioning why V would do such a thing, being a serious wizard, and all.

[Scorpi]

Yay! First post!

I don't know if this has been suggested, but in the Player's Handbook, the different classes are usually associated with a gender and I noticed that the the characters (Linear Guild not included) are of the same gender as their class would suggest.

Fighter(Roy): Male
Ranger(Belkar): Male
Rogue(Haley): Female
Cleric(Durkon): Male
Bard(Elan): Male
Wizard(Vaarsuvius?): Female

Paladin(Miko): Female
Even Miko fits the theory...

[DeathQuaker]

It is an interesting correlation, that most of the characters are the same gender as the characters drawn in the PHB but it's arbitrary enough it may be simply coincidence.

And Miallee is awfully slender; if we were to draw her in say, a baggy red robe, we might have trouble determining her gender. ;)

My leaning is toward the coincidence theory, however--but it is an interesting note.

[Beelzebub1111]

Yay! First post!

I don't know if this has been suggested, but in the Player's Handbook, the different classes are usually associated with a gender and I noticed that the the characters (Linear Guild not included) are of the same gender as their class would suggest.

Fighter(Roy): Male
Ranger(Belkar): Male
Rogue(Haley): Female
Cleric(Durkon): Male
Bard(Elan): Male
Wizard(Vaarsuvius?): Female

Paladin(Miko): Female
Even Miko fits the theory...

Excelent point! I hadn't realy thought about that before. I don't think anyone has mentioned it either. But one could argue that a male gnome wizard is also mentioned. (however I, for one, still belive that V is female. I was just playing devil's advocate)

And for miko, the monk described is also female so that fits as well...interesting...

[KuH]

... allow me to further muddy the waters.

In another thread ('How Can Miko Do This') a certain extremely well-informed person (i.e., the only one who knows the truth) stated (and I quote):

' • Miko goes nuts on V, critical hitting **him** with her katana and knocking **him** to -1 in one shot.'

A slip of the lips or misinformation? You decide ...

[Wrecan]

http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq10

Stop it. Just stop it. Rich uses the male pronoun as a default pronoun, not as evidence or a slip of the tongue/finger. This has been said repreatedly by many people. V is of indeterminate gender until Burlew expressly states otherwise.

[Scorpi]

Well... Vaarsuvius isn't a gnome. If the male wizard was described specifically as a gnome in the PHB then I don't think that argument would hold in court. ;)

[Electric_Monkey]

And if you want to extend it to the other classes (this is somewhat tenuous because there are no PCs of these classes, so I'm going on "1st NPC", but hey- a Johnny-come-lately has to grab what he can), the first sorcerer encountered by the order is either Zykon or Nale (Roy at least knows of Zykon at the start, but the first on-panel meeting is with Nale), both of whom are male. I don't think they've met a druid yet, and to the bestof my knowledge, all the barbarians they've met have been male.

[Rusty]

Actually, there was a female Barbarian. Only Belkar met her, though.

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/Gian...tscript?SK=133

Though while the default examples do in fact hold little weight - note that the Linear Guild had two women in it. This may also, of course, mean absolutely nothing. (And it probably does!)

[Electric_Monkey]

Are you referring to Kuurkk? While Kuurkk has long hair, the flat body would lead me to believe Kuurkk is male. I'm not trying to start a Kuurkk the anaemic gender debate thresd, just checking in case I've missed something.

[Scorpi]

The Linear Guild is supposed to be (Kinda) opposites of the Order so I didn't count them. I think Hylgia was only female because she was supposed to get together with Durkon.

If you look strictly at the Order of the Stick then my theory could be true (But probably isn't). ::)

[Beelzebub1111]

Okay, before today's comic sarts a riot let me first say that sabine's only knowlege of V's gender is the fact that she knew Z'drrti's gender. So there is no real way she could know for sure.

[Annon]

Am I allowed to take snippets of the comic to prove a point?

I'm not editing them in any way (except maybe to crop, but no alteration I maen), but I don't want to step on any toes....