OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But there's Durkon, cleric for the Order of the Stick, smack dab in the middle of this memory.

The current Order of the Stick has two clerics, neither of which is Durkon.

GW

[GreatWyrmGold]

"I shouldn't have said 'no time jumps'."
Don't you just love when your own cleverness gets the better of you? It's like trying to trick a genie into giving you more wishes, except with more soap and theology.

Also, the controlled detonation line reminds me that Durkon has pulled this scam before...

I'm not sure it's a comparable situation. Past!Durkon had no idea that Nale would be attacking; he was just on the balcony because tea time happened to be at the right time. But now, Durkon's had nothing but time to plan.
Also, I'd be surprised if a snake-vampire brought tea to Durkon's mom.

I wonder what is Durkon thinking? How is it supposed to help with this last memory if the vampire already knows of the possibility of him misleading with a memory?

That is the nature of mind-games. Most of the time, you know the other guy is plotting something. You just need to figure out what, and how their visible moves build to that. But the other guy knows you know, and is constructing those visible moves to make you think what he wants you to think, so he does what he wants you to do.
What is Durkon thinking? That requires knowing what he's trying to do, which requires us to essentially do the same thing Durkon* is doing. We know his ultimate goal (prevent Hel from destroying the world), and we know what he can do (show memories to Durkon*), we just need to connect the dots.
It has been well-established that Durkon cannot do anything to affect Durkon*'s ability to fight; not only is he limited to being a glorified VHS player crossed with Statler & Waldorf, he has been forbidden from showing any potentially-misleading memories. That leaves only Durkon*'s will to fight, or at least his will to do something which could prevent the Order from saving the day. What could this be?
There are several potential avenues of attack. Durkon could make Durkon* question his motivation, his trust in Hel or the spawn, his confidence in something-or-other, etc. The trick is going to be giving Durkon* a revelation strong enough that he can't just dismiss it as "some trick," something that will linger in the back of his mind no matter how he tries to forget it.
That probably means something that hits deep at the core of who Durkon* is and what he wants himself to be. Given that he's a servant of Hel even more thoroughly than your average living cleric, I'm tentatively guessing that it'll have something to do with that. Of course, I'm not sure how hard it'd be for anything a Thor-lover says about her to be dismissed (Hel presumably hasn't pretended that all the mortals hate the incumbents and are eagerly awaiting a chance for Hel to whisk them away), so I'm not too confident about that.
Once we get more than one panel of Durkon's plan, we might be able to start making better plans.

But it's really the internal conflict that's important and determinative.

As it should always be. Though perhaps not always so...literally.

Second, a vampire also gets +2 WIS.

Beat me to it!
Though on a serious note, conflating Wisdom with wisdom is as foolish as conflating Intelligence with intelligence.

Doesn't he? "I count 'able to be picked by a rogue' as a pretty big defect" was his line, after all.

That's not a long history. That's a single instance.

[AutomatedTeller]

Well, we do know that Durkula is incapable of seeing how memories relate to each and that he is incapable of seeing that such a thing is possible (back from #963)

Presumably, Durkon's plan is to take advantage of that fact. So, I know the form of what Durkon is trying to do - show a memory that, in relation to an earlier one, will cause Durkula to make a mistake, because he can't see how they relate.

I have no idea what that could be.

[Sloanzilla]

So, some insight by the young priest into the nature of the gods and worship?

[Turin_19]

I simply love the comic. I really think the memory though has to somehow come as a Big Reveal. For that, I think the next few pages will show memories interceded with 'present time'. From there we will know.

EDIT: to avoid two posts in a row.

But, somehow, I don't see that it should be NOW that Durkula dies. I mean, to me, it seems that Durkula should die exclusively because of something Durkon showed him. However, right now, Durkula already seems to be losing and Roy's strategies are working extremely well. It doesn't seem Durkon has a real impact on this.

[Chei]

That's not a long history. That's a single instance.

"The five of us never left our cells."

I'll grant, in advance, that you can count them as the same instance. But to me, it betrays a familiarity with the concept that can only come with practice.

[dariathalon]

I'm kind of wondering if...

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Durkon is going to show a memory of the first time he turned undead or something. I have no idea if that would work through a memory, but I can easily imagine Durkon wouldn't know either, hence saving it for a time when it might make a bigger difference. Another part of me says it wouldn't work because at the time Durkon was so low level, but I still think it would be a fun way for this to pan out.

[zimmerwald1915]

Though perhaps not always so...literally.

Why not? There is no life but that of the mind.

[Elenna]

But, somehow, I don't see that it should be NOW that Durkula dies. I mean, to me, it seems that Durkula should die exclusively because of something Durkon showed him. However, right now, Durkula already seems to be losing and Roy's strategies are working extremely well. It doesn't seem Durkon has a real impact on this.

My expectation is that more spawn will die and then Greg will realize he's losing that battle and mist out to meet the Ex-Exarch and Nameless Vamp in the council chamber, where there will be another fight.

[are]

Has anyone been minding the vampire's spell slots? Presumably he's 15th level since he now has access to Symbol of Death, so I'm going to try and do a quick rundown of his slots and cast spells that we've seen so far.

The following assumes a max wisdom of 25 on the vampire's part, based on the CLG thread's estimate of Durkon's wisdom of 22-23 +2 for being a vampire.

I am also assuming that "Mass Raise Vampire" is equivalent to Animate Dead, though I of course have no reason to assume this other than Malack's discussion of it and some speculation on the forum that because it requires an extremely rare commodity its spell slot cost might not be high.

Cantrips: 6

Level	Bonus Spell 2	Bonus Spell 1	5th Spell	4th Spell	3rd Spell	2nd Spell	1st Spell	Domain Spell
1	?	?	?	?	?	?	?	?
2	?	?	?	?	?	?	?	?
3	?	?	?	?	?	?	Animate Vampires?	?
4		?		?	?	?	Sending	?
5		?		?	?	?	Commune	?
6		?			?	?	?	?
7		?				?	Mass Inflict Serious Wounds	?
8							Symbol of Death	?

It would be really fitting if the vampire's domains were Death and Destruction, as that would be an extremely literal prophecy fulfillment, but there's nothing to confirm that. We've seen him cast Destruction and Harm but those are just normally available cleric spells.

Nor do we have confirmation if he's the one who cast the rest of the high-level Symbols of X we saw scattered around the chamber when the giraffes got zapped.

I will update this post in future discussion threads as the vampire casts more spells.

[ed: forgot bonus spells in table]

[Chei]

Death, at the least, is confirmed as one of Hel's domains. She's also a goddess of pestilence, which doesn't necessarily imply Destruction, but as a vampire cleric, Durkon would have access to that domain, going by the 3.5 SRD.

[zimmerwald1915]

Has anyone been minding the vampire's spell slots?

Yes, here, along with Vaarsuvius's and Hilgya's.

[Mandor]

Given that it all goes at the speed of thought, which in game terms is effectively instantaneous, I'm not sure what Durkon intends here.

It cant' just be a LONG memory to delay him.
It can't be to drum up sympathy in a vampire.

I mean, sure, you have the chance to MAYBE have him spare your kid without putting anything extra at risk, you take it. (Not really sure I trust Greg to keep his word.... but it's a chance.)
But Durkon seems to have a GOAL in mind with showing this one memory.

[M.A.D]

Interesting. The last guy who said he'd play to Durkon's trick to avoid it got stabbed in the chest.

[zimmerwald1915]

Interesting. The last guy who said he'd play to Durkon's trick to avoid it got stabbed in the chest.

Who? Sorry, but when I hear "stabbed in the chest" all I can think about is Elan.

[Jasdoif]

Interesting. The last guy who said he'd play to Durkon's trick to avoid it got stabbed in the chest.

Who? Sorry, but when I hear "stabbed in the chest" all I can think about is Elan.

Understandable, there was a time delay and a change of agents.

[Lord of Sporks]

I'm just going to put this prediction here right now. Durkon's memory will be:

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Him learning the truth about his dad. The real story: not the one he was told. That's the story everyone knows, but his ma told everyone not to tell him. Why? Why not tell Durkon that his father died honorably to save others? Because it's not the truth. Durkon's mom knows the truth, and it isn't pretty, and something that happened at the temple is going to make Durkon bring it up, and the truth is going to come out.

This is the most logical topic for the memory. We know Durkon's father is important: we know something is up with the story, since there is no reason his mom wouldn't want Durkon to hear about his death if it was really so honorable. I don't know how this will affect the battle, if at all. But from a story point of view, it seems like the most logical next step.

[M.A.D]

Who? Sorry, but when I hear "stabbed in the chest" all I can think about is Elan.

It's Nale. You're pretty close there.

[Lkctgo]

Hm... I wonder if vampires can learn empathy from their hosts.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Well, we do know that Durkula is incapable of seeing how memories relate to each and that he is incapable of seeing that such a thing is possible (back from #963)
Presumably, Durkon's plan is to take advantage of that fact. So, I know the form of what Durkon is trying to do - show a memory that, in relation to an earlier one, will cause Durkula to make a mistake, because he can't see how they relate.
I have no idea what that could be.

On one hand, I do think that Durkon*'s inability to put together memories will come up again at some point. On the other hand, I have no idea how showing Durkon* a memory that he can't piece together with another memory is supposed to be better than not showing him that memory at all. Aside from allowing Durkon to gloat that he showed Durkon* how to win, if only he could put 2 and 2 together...which doesn't seem like Durkon, on several levels.

"The five of us never left our cells."
I'll grant, in advance, that you can count them as the same instance. But to me, it betrays a familiarity with the concept that can only come with practice.

As indicated by the discomfort he clearly showed while deceiving the Sapphire Guard, and the fact that he never did anything else like that before or since.

Why not? There is no life but that of the mind.

That might be true from a certain point of view, but it's hard to make a story that takes place entirely inside someone's mind engaging to the audience without turning that mind into its own world with its own characters. Most of the time, it's better to have characters struggle against symbolic representations of their inner demons than to go through the trouble of establishing the inner world well enough for the audience to buy into it and care.

[KorvinStarmast]

The current Order of the Stick has two clerics, neither of which is Durkon.

Yeah. I don't think Durkula is going to waste effort on the rules lawyering deal. That seems more like Exarch's schtick.

Looking forward to the next scene and the memory with Durkon's Ma. Based on how all of this is going on in Durkon/Durkula's head, Kudzu's status is something like "virtual hostage" but there may be a better term for that.

[IntelectPaladin]

Everyone, I think I've got it.
Durkon isn't trying to trick greg.
He's attempting to convince him of something.
Of Hel's true nature, of his discoveries as a cleric, (Much as the same discoveries made by a nurse, perhaps,)
or of something I haven't yet guessed.
Whatever is happening here, it doesn't seem underhanded.

Thank you for reading this, and I hope you have a pleasant day.

[MartianInvader]

I'm just going to put this prediction here right now. Durkon's memory will be:

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Him learning the truth about his dad. The real story: not the one he was told. That's the story everyone knows, but his ma told everyone not to tell him. Why? Why not tell Durkon that his father died honorably to save others? Because it's not the truth. Durkon's mom knows the truth, and it isn't pretty, and something that happened at the temple is going to make Durkon bring it up, and the truth is going to come out.

This is the most logical topic for the memory. We know Durkon's father is important: we know something is up with the story, since there is no reason his mom wouldn't want Durkon to hear about his death if it was really so honorable. I don't know how this will affect the battle, if at all. But from a story point of view, it seems like the most logical next step.

I like this theory.

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And if/when it turns out to be about his father dying without honor, it means it's pretty likely to involve Hela as well. Maybe his mother told him a secret about the pantheon that not even Hela knows- maybe "dying honorably" turns out to be more broad a definition than she was led to believe. It could be something his mother made up to make him feel better, but Hela/Greg may not be willing to take the chance.
Or something.

[Leirus]

I wonder if this is going to be something about the very nature of the gods or the arrangement with Hel. "It is a doozy" says Durkon, with a face that says "I barely understand or like it myself". Something that could thrown off the vampire focus or his faith in Hel even a little. Then again, the fact that the vampire cannot learn should be important, and I do not see how.

[Stabbey]

Oh boy, Durkon is planning something. High Priest of Hel even knows that Durkon is planning something... and I still have no idea what. This ought to be good.

[Peelee]

I don't think "the vampire learns something new about Hel" is going to happen.

[Gusion]

I guess we're doing guesses.

So it is obviously something that he saw/learned on his first day of being a cleric of Thor. Likely then, some type of secret.

I'll go with something in the room with the Exarch. Like there is some ward there he wasn't expecting... or something that indicates that that the Exarch probably failed in his mission if Durkula doesn't go himself. The clerics cast Holy Aura at every chamber meeting maybe.

This sets up a conflict that he has to decide what to do, run to the council chamber or stay and fight.

[Matt620]

I've seen this before, the supposedly "smarter than thou" person gets tricked due to his arrogance.

But it never gets old

[Chei]

As indicated by the discomfort he clearly showed while deceiving the Sapphire Guard, and the fact that he never did anything else like that before or since.

I mean, one more example off the top of my head would be leaving and re-entering the Empire of Blood claiming to be on a pilgrimage. Relatively sure he did some 'lying' to Malack on behalf of Haley there, too.

[Ironsmith]

I mean, one more example off the top of my head would be leaving and re-entering the Empire of Blood claiming to be on a pilgrimage. Relatively sure he did some 'lying' to Malack on behalf of Haley there, too.

Actually, that last one didn't seem to be lying so much as just not contradicting her. And he was pretty annoyed throughout that whole thing.

In basic principle, I'd say Durkon's got the basics of most scams down; offer up information, leave out crucial details, and let the victim make assumptions such that they trip over their own "cleverness". Greg certainly seems to think so (and it's not likely he's wrong, being made in Durkon's image and whatnot). To his credit, though, the only people he's done this to are those who seemed like they presented an active threat if he was transparent with them (Miko, Malack, and the EoB guard), so while he certainly seems to be capable of lies of omission, he's much more responsible with them than, say, Haley or Elan.