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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    I just have to ask: is that dragon-blood troll ... still buried under that rockfall? Could it still be alive?
    Even if the rock fall itself didn't kill it (the regeneration rules are a bit ambiguous in that regard), it may still have suffocated or starved. It's most likely dead.
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  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    I just have to ask: is that dragon-blood troll ... still buried under that rockfall? Could it still be alive?
    It would have died by starvation and thirst--if not quickly by suffocation--by now: regeneration doesn't help with those:

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbi...m#regeneration
    Last edited by eilandesq; 2018-05-14 at 03:56 AM.
    Sudden thought after watching an old "Lois and Clark" episode: Lane Davies aka Tempus is probably the best possible choice to portray an animated or live action Xykon if either of those ever becomes reality--he was born in 1950 and Tempus' personality is a close match for pre-lich Xykon IMO. Just my two cents.

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGiant
    I've often said that a lot of confusion would have been avoided if they had simply called it Ordered instead of Lawful. "Ordered Good" leaves a lot less room for misinterpretation.
    But that wasn't where Law and Chaos came from. (Moorcock, Poul Anderson speculative fiction). The problem began when someone with a partial understanding of philosophy implanted the two axis alignment into the game as a mechanic and role playing guide. The existential nature of the Law vs Chaos cosmic forces was lost when the decision to imbed the recognizable Good and Evil (which is all over story telling across many cultural archetypes) into it.
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  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    But that wasn't where Law and Chaos came from. (Moorcock, Poul Anderson speculative fiction). The problem began when someone with a partial understanding of philosophy implanted the two axis alignment into the game as a mechanic and role playing guide. The existential nature of the Law vs Chaos cosmic forces was lost when the decision to imbed the recognizable Good and Evil (which is all over story telling across many cultural archetypes) into it.

    Preach it!

    Trying to square the circle of Anderson's Elves (agents of Chaos), with Tolkien's Elves (agents of good), has led to headaches.
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  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by eilandesq View Post
    It would have died by starvation and thirst--if not quickly by suffocation--by now: regeneration doesn't help with those:

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbi...m#regeneration
    Dragons can last a LONG time on a tiny amount of food compared to their size....

    Suffocation may or may not be the answer though.
    "Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

    I'm not sure why everyone's arguing about lying when the vampire has no reason whatsoever to lie, or even subvert the promise. He explicitly says the baby is of no threat to him, he believes the world will end in a few hours so it won't matter anyway, and he was the one who suggested the promise in the first place. And if he does subvert it (which is highly unlikely due to the wording), Durkon can say he's broken the promise (as there's no neutral adjudicator) and continue to show memories that distract or mislead.

    But then again, this is the forum, and I've seen someone alignment-lawyering with the Gestapo, so I'm not sure why the argument should have anything to do with the comic anymore.

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

    Well, a couple of things.

    First, I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that Durkula wants to not be bothered by memories. Therefore, it is something that he thinks would be good for him. So, that's a thing.

    Regarding Sigdi and Durkon, one of the most plausible explanations is that Sigdi was given a massive settlement/'workplace compensation' (Lawful, recall) payment and rather than using it to help herself, she donated it to the Temple of Thor to give her son a place there. I don't recall how much we might know about the requirements to get into 'Cleric school', but donating large sums of money to an institution to secure your child's place there is a well-established pattern IRL. And it would help to explain Durkon's position on any number of topics, certainly WRT Hilgya.

    Regarding his father, it could be something as simple as he learned on his first day the disposition of dwarven souls, and he was concerned/frightened that his father may not have gone to Thor, but rather to Hel, and that requires more information than Sigdi was willing to divulge earlier.

    Finally, it should be noted that the original reason for Durkon's exile is well known, but something that I think has been overlooked is that the HPoThor knew Durkon quite well enough to accurately predict his reaction. 'That kid's so Lawful', etc., etc. Durkon doesn't exactly put his best foot forward. So I think the reason the HPoT knew Durkon so well and his traits was because of something in Durkon's past that Durkon reacted against.

  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MartianInvader View Post
    I like this theory.
    Spoiler
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    And if/when it turns out to be about his father dying without honor, it means it's pretty likely to involve Hela as well. Maybe his mother told him a secret about the pantheon that not even Hela knows- maybe "dying honorably" turns out to be more broad a definition than she was led to believe. It could be something his mother made up to make him feel better, but Hela/Greg may not be willing to take the chance.
    Or something.
    I really like this theory a lot, and it really got me thinking: There are any number of things that we've been operating on as assumptions that were never actually stated, most of which derive from 1083
    Thor would probably rather just lose the bet than let Hel become more powerful than Odin. He could just intentionally back out, and pay up (whatever it is), and he would likely gain dominion over all of the souls of his worshipers, honor or not. Hel would then gain default dominion over her own worshipers, which would likely be nobody. The world would then end, and all of the other gods would end up with their fair share of followers, except Hel, who would get nothing (except the ability to make clerics among the living in a world that no longer exists).

    My bet though? Durkon learned that day what the spoils of the bet were, and that they were something dumb (like 10gp, or just pure bragging rights, or they have to let Hel into Valhalla or something). It already said in 1083 that Thor told the dwarves about the bet. It would be reasonable that he would tell them about the spoils as well.

  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

    Uh oh. Lurkon is unto Durkon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironsmith View Post
    As much as I like the idea of lowest-point Durkon having enough standards that there are boundaries even Greg wouldn't cross, I'm afraid the current situation points away from that interpretation... I don't think Durkon would hurt his infant son on his worst day, either. For that matter, the worst he would do on his worst day is... say mean stuff about the clergy of Thor. I think Greg's proven there's quite the substantial gap between the two of them.

    That being said, I'm not sure that Greg is so static that Durkon would be unable to dissuade him from his plan somehow. I don't think this memory is just for stalling.
    I think the implications of this strip were that Durkon did not do anymore than shout impotently at the wind was because shouting impotently at the wind was all he could physically do at the time. When he shouted "Damn ye all ta Hel", I think that should the Directors have popped up in front of him with a deal that would have allowed him to do just that he would have taken it. Because at that very moment, and for no longer than this very moment he was Durkon*.
    Is there lines that Lurkon won't cross? Maybe, maybe not. I doubt we'll see them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    The current Order of the Stick has two clerics, neither of which is Durkon.
    I don't think either Minrah or Hilgya would call themselves members of the Order. Or that any member would call them anything else than "native auxiliary/local volunteer" and "ally of circumstance" respectively.

    The Order of the Stick has one Cleric and that he is currently being held prisoner by an aberration of nature pledged to a dark goddes bent on world destruction is not stopping him from doing everything he can to aid his teammates. Because the job still needs doing, he can't allow himself to die just yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Given that .he's a servant of Hel even more thoroughly than your average living cleric.
    I am not sure he is that loyal to Hel. She gives him magical powers and her plan happens to be hurting those he hates so he is happy to work for her but his decision to confront Roy despite being ordered not to signals to me that his agenda comes first.

    I agree with the rest of what you've said though.



    Quote Originally Posted by jere7my View Post
    Did we determine Tarquin was evil? I thought we settled on the darker side of LN.
    Ah! Nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord of Sporks View Post
    I'm just going to put this prediction here right now. Durkon's memory will be:

    Spoiler
    Show
    Him learning the truth about his dad. The real story: not the one he was told. That's the story everyone knows, but his ma told everyone not to tell him. Why? Why not tell Durkon that his father died honorably to save others? Because it's not the truth. Durkon's mom knows the truth, and it isn't pretty, and something that happened at the temple is going to make Durkon bring it up, and the truth is going to come out.

    This is the most logical topic for the memory. We know Durkon's father is important: we know something is up with the story, since there is no reason his mom wouldn't want Durkon to hear about his death if it was really so honorable. I don't know how this will affect the battle, if at all. But from a story point of view, it seems like the most logical next step.
    Quote Originally Posted by schmunzel View Post
    Spoiler: wild theory alert
    Show
    # Durkons Daddy was a priest/follower of Loki


    sch
    Quote Originally Posted by Elenna View Post
    I'm sure Durkon's father will come up again, maybe now, but I have no idea how that might impact the plot.
    I expect the fact that Greg pronounces "something" as "somethin'" in the third-last panel of 963 will help somehow, but I have no idea how.

    Something will definitely happen with the fact that Durkon's exile is over, but I don't expect that to be relevant until Greg is dusted and they have to figure out what Hilgya and Kudzu are going to do. Mostly because I can't think of any way it might be relevant to the fight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yendor View Post
    Now's probably a good time to point out that one of those names is in fact:
    Spoiler
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    Sigdi Thundershield.

    The one above it is Shirra Copperbottom, which may be Sigdi's friend.


    Here's the font.
    Dun dun dun!
    I think this is the right idea.

    20 golds say Sigdi only ever made one donation to the Church. That was the money she inherited when Durkon's dad died but either because of the way he died or (most likely) of the way the money was earned (through unsavory means like robbery extorsion or mybe even murder ; especially if he was a Lokite) she thought it would not be honorable for her to enjoy this money and gave it to the Church so that it would do some good.
    Hence being a Dwarf is about doing your duty, especially if it makes you miserable. Just more literally than we thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by VincentvB View Post
    How does she hold that bowl with only one arm?
    She presses it against her chest.
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  10. - Top - End - #160

    Default Re: OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

    Given the placement, more likely the abdomen.

  11. - Top - End - #161
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    Default Re: OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

    My Best translation on the wall of very rich donors:
    Spoiler
    Show

    No Really, this is probably a real spoiler.
    Spoiler
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    As an aside, the name directly above Durkon's head in 1112 could actually plausibly be "Sigdi Thundershield" from what I can see of it.
    It is blurred to heck, but what I can check lines up.

    S _ G _ _ [SPACE] T _ _ N _ E R S _ _ E L D are the letters that I can make out clearly enough to translate. Whoever came up with that, dang. Good eyes.
    All of the other letters are appropriately shaped to be what they need to be, but are just too blurry for me to make them out properly.

    Last edited by Kashem; 2018-05-14 at 01:45 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kashem View Post
    Thor would probably rather just lose the bet than let Hel become more powerful than Odin. He could just intentionally back out, and pay up (whatever it is), and he would likely gain dominion over all of the souls of his worshipers, honor or not. Hel would then gain default dominion over her own worshipers, which would likely be nobody. The world would then end, and all of the other gods would end up with their fair share of followers, except Hel, who would get nothing (except the ability to make clerics among the living in a world that no longer exists).
    You make a very good case for a scenario where Hel refuses to let Thor out of the bet, assuming ending the bet prematurely is even an option. Additionally, you make a very good case for a scenario where the Western and Southern Gods should expect the Northern Gods to renege on anything they ever say the instant it's inconvenient for them to uphold their word.
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  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

    Not to mention the case for the current book ending with, "Just kidding--the heroes didn't need to do anything."

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    Default Re: OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Not to mention the case for the current book ending with, "Just kidding--the heroes didn't need to do anything."
    Adding to that case: Dvalin said he would obey the will of the clans. If the clan heads are being dominated, there's no way of knowing what their actual will is, and thanks to Gontor's blabbing, Dvalin knows that the vampires intend to dominate them. So either Dvalin takes a guess ("No! Are you freaking nuts?!") or delays voting as long as the vampires are a problem... and while the vote's unresolved, the world's not being destroyed.
    Who're you? ...Don't matter.

    Want some rye? 'Course ya do!


    Here's to us.
    Who's like us?
    Damn few,
    and they're aaall dead.


    *gushes unintelligibly over our cat, Sunshine*

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  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

    I've been making a list of all the details I could extract from Durkon's flashbacks. I'm going to put them in a spoiler box, not because they're spoilers, but because seeing them all in one place might give people ideas about the plot that they'd rather not imagine just yet.

    Details are listed chronologically, as best as I can work out.

    Spoiler
    Show
    After they are married, Tenrin asks Sigdi if she'd like to meet under "Thor's starry sky."
    Sigdi prepares her party with flaming weapons against the dragon-blood troll.
    When Durkon was a child, Sigdi says "your pa used to look up at the sky."
    Sigdi risks her own life to save an unnamed dwarf from dying dishonorably (falling off a ladder).
    Sigdi refuses to allow Thirden from telling the story of how Tenrin died, specifically whether he died with or without honor.
    Sigdi didn't know how to cook ("can barely boil water") before Durkon was born. However, since Durkon's birth she has been holding dinners every Wednesday (the day before Thor's day).
    Sigdi's name is on the list of "very rich donors" for Thor's temple, even though she can't afford the donation to Odin's temple to have her arm restored.
    Durkon does not thank his mother for any specific element of his clerical training, the way he thanks others for training in mythology, use of armor, etc.
    Sigdi doesn't look proud that her son was ordained a cleric of Thor. She passes this off as discomfort about the debt she owes for the dress.
    Though poor, Sigdi didn't want the free dress she was entitled to by the bylaws of Thor's church. She accepted it as a gift from Shirra.

    My conclusion:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Durkon's mother was a cleric of Loki before Tenrin's death. She does not talk about Thor until after Tenrin is gone; she says "your pa used to look up at the sky," not we. Sigdi prepares her team with flaming weapons, where flame is Loki's personal trick.

    Tenrin dies with dishonor, which Sigdi never cared about before as a devotee of Loki. (Perhaps that is why she doesn't want to discuss it — it's not part of her faith.)

    After his death, she devoted herself to raising Durkon as a cleric of Thor (even though it made her miserable). She holds feasts on the evening before Thor's holy day. She even learns to cook (she says she can "barely boil water" before having Durkon — and what boils water? fire). Why did she learn to cook? Because as a cleric with two hands, she could create food magically (create food and water has somatic components; presumably can't be cast by a one-armed caster). She risks her life to save a dwarf from Tenrin's fate, death without honor, which is something she doesn't even believe in herself; she's setting a good example for Durkon. She's not proud when Durkon is ordained as a cleric of Thor, and refuses the dress she's entitled to (until it is reframed as a gift from Shirra).

    And I think Durkon knows it now, too. He's watched all those memories again, and he's figured things out that he hadn't known or noticed before. Durkon is going to have reconcile his having placed her on a pedestal with her similarity to Hilgya.
    Last edited by Fish; 2018-05-14 at 02:22 PM.
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  16. - Top - End - #166

    Default Re: OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironsmith View Post
    Adding to that case: Dvalin said he would obey the will of the clans. If the clan heads are being dominated, there's no way of knowing what their actual will is, and thanks to Gontor's blabbing, Dvalin knows that the vampires intend to dominate them. So either Dvalin takes a guess ("No! Are you freaking nuts?!") or delays voting as long as the vampires are a problem... and while the vote's unresolved, the world's not being destroyed.
    The gods can't hear any of the mortals at the Godsmoot and anyway Dvalin's guy had left already.

  17. - Top - End - #167
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    Default Re: OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironsmith View Post
    Adding to that case: Dvalin said he would obey the will of the clans. If the clan heads are being dominated, there's no way of knowing what their actual will is, and thanks to Gontor's blabbing, Dvalin knows that the vampires intend to dominate them. So either Dvalin takes a guess ("No! Are you freaking nuts?!") or delays voting as long as the vampires are a problem... and while the vote's unresolved, the world's not being destroyed.
    This point has already been raised, don't remember to what conclusion.

    One thing notewhorty is that the Gods only hear themselves, not the mortals in the Godsmoot, so Dvalin didn't quite hear Gontor's blabbing. That said, all the clerics there heard, and someone must have sent a message to dwarvenlands in order for them to assemble the council of the clans. Didn't they find reasonable to add a "PS: beware of the vampires trying to rig the vote."
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  18. - Top - End - #168
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    Default Re: OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironsmith View Post
    Adding to that case: Dvalin said he would obey the will of the clans. If the clan heads are being dominated, there's no way of knowing what their actual will is, and thanks to Gontor's blabbing, Dvalin knows that the vampires intend to dominate them. So either Dvalin takes a guess ("No! Are you freaking nuts?!") or delays voting as long as the vampires are a problem... and while the vote's unresolved, the world's not being destroyed.
    Dvalin couldn't hear the Exexarch .

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    I've been making a list of all the details I could extract from Durkon's flashbacks. I'm going to put them in a spoiler box, not because they're spoilers, but because seeing them all in one place might give people ideas about the plot that they'd rather not imagine just yet.

    Details are listed chronologically, as best as I can work out.

    Spoiler
    Show
    After they are married, Tenrin asks Sigdi if she'd like to meet under "Thor's starry sky."
    Sigdi prepares her party with flaming weapons against the dragon-blood troll.
    When Durkon was a child, Sigdi says "your pa used to look up at the sky."
    Sigdi risks her own life to save an unnamed dwarf from dying dishonorably (falling off a ladder).
    Sigdi refuses to allow Thirden from telling the story of how Tenrin died, specifically whether he died with or without honor.
    Sigdi didn't know how to cook ("can barely boil water") before Durkon was born. However, since Durkon's birth she has been holding dinners every Wednesday (the day before Thor's day).
    Sigdi's name is on the list of "very rich donors" for Thor's temple, even though she can't afford the donation to Odin's temple to have her arm restored.
    Durkon does not thank his mother for any specific element of his clerical training, the way he thanks others for training in mythology, use of armor, etc.
    Sigdi doesn't look proud that her son was ordained a cleric of Thor. She passes this off as discomfort about the debt she owes for the dress.
    Though poor, Sigdi didn't want the free dress she was entitled to by the bylaws of Thor's church. She accepted it as a gift from Shirra.

    My conclusion:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Durkon's mother was a cleric of Loki before Tenrin's death. She does not talk about Thor until after Tenrin is gone; she says "your pa used to look up at the sky," not we. Sigdi prepares her team with flaming weapons, where flame is Loki's personal trick.

    Tenrin dies with dishonor, which Sigdi never cared about before as a devotee of Loki. (Perhaps that is why she doesn't want to discuss it — it's not part of her faith.)

    After his death, she devoted herself to raising Durkon as a cleric of Thor (even though it made her miserable). She holds feasts on the evening before Thor's holy day. She even learns to cook (she says she can "barely boil water" before having Durkon — and what boils water? fire). Why did she learn to cook? Because as a cleric with two hands, she could create food magically (create food and water has somatic components; presumably can't be cast by a one-armed caster). She risks her life to save a dwarf from Tenrin's fate, death without honor, which is something she doesn't even believe in herself; she's setting a good example for Durkon. She's not proud when Durkon is ordained as a cleric of Thor, and refuses the dress she's entitled to (until it is reframed as a gift from Shirra).

    And I think Durkon knows it now, too. He's watched all those memories again, and he's figured things out that he hadn't known or noticed before. Durkon is going to have reconcile his having placed her on a pedestal with her similarity to Hilgya.
    In my opinion the "it's a little-known church bylaw" is just Thirden joking. I really don't think there is more to this particular scene than what we were shown: Sigdi is the kind of persons that loathes the idea of "living off someone's back" and not"pulling her own weight" (which make sense given that Dwarven society appears to have a collectivist streak to it) and insists on considering every gift that is given to her as something she must repay no matter how asymetrical the situation (her friends are clearly better off thans she is (they all have two arms for a start)).

    You also seem to forget that fire is explicitly available to any and all Clerics.

    It is possible that Sigdi had a 180° personnality switch after Terin's death but it would needsome serious storytelling to sell it.

    Not that The Giant doesn't have those but still.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2018-05-14 at 02:34 PM.
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  19. - Top - End - #169
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    Default Re: OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    ... and anyway Dvalin's guy had left already.
    No, he didn't (panel 2).
    Each one of us, alone, is but a drop in the sea
    Our powers pale compared with the great heroes
    Our battles don’t hit theheadlines or shake the earth
    But they are few, can’t be everywhere, and we, many
    So, when the world or universe needs saving, they come
    But when people needs saving, we are the ones to appear
    We're underdogs, but we rise up to the challenge to be heroes.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BowStreetRunner View Post
    The real question for me is whether the 'no time jumps' also applies to the audience. If the next 10 comics are all Durkon washing up for supper...
    It probably doesn't. Recall #458 in which Sabine explains how time jumps in the comic strip works. Since the dialog in #1121 already establishes that there'll be twenty minutes of washing up, those twenty minutes will pass between this strip and the next one (unless something really interesting happens during washing up of course).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Not to mention the case for the current book ending with, "Just kidding--the heroes didn't need to do anything."
    Kinda. Backing out of the bet right before the apocalypse isn't really a good ending for the heroes. Yeah, all of the dwarves don't end up being tortured for eternity by Hel, and that's great, but still...

    The entirety of creation gets killed in that scenario. I can pretty definitely call that a loss. I don't think we're pulling a "Raiders of the lost ark" level of "The heroes are totally pointless." here. Besides, Thor doesn't want to HAVE to lose the bet, so he'll hold out hope for the Order as long as it is reasonable.

    I do think that would be why Dvalin wouldn't just say, "OK, just No." Dvalin strikes me as the kind of god that is so lawful that it would cause him to cease to exist if he did not keep his word on a promise that he made ages ago under completely different circumstances.

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    Default Re: OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    You also seem to forget that fire is explicitly available to any and all Clerics.
    You seem to be under the impression that this point invalidates the theory. It does not. Fire suggests Loki without ruling out any other deity. If there had been only one possible god involved in providing that flame, there would be no mystery; even Durkula could have worked it out by process of elimination.

    And
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    there wouldn't be much reason for Durkon's mantra, "do your duty even if it makes you miserable," if Durkon's mother had been doing what made her happy. Clearly, her son becoming a cleric of Thor did not make her happy. Clearly she was hiding the story of Tenrin's death, and whether he died with or without honor, for a reason. The confluence of {death with (dis)honor, fire magic, and not-Thor} = Loki, not some other deity.


    Since we're pretty clear on the idea that Durkula cannot link the meaning of disparate memories, it stands to reason that the disparate memories will have something hidden in them. I propose this as being reasonable, given what we know.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Not to mention the case for the current book ending with, "Just kidding--the heroes didn't need to do anything."
    To be fair, I could buy an in-between case where the battle doesn't play out the way the Order is expecting it to (maybe something straightforward like HPoH bailing on an apparently unwinnable fight to go after the Gate rather than the council, intending to get the gods to destroy the world to save their own skins despite Hel losing at the Godsmoot; and every vampire the Order defeats now is a vampire that can't contribute later).



    But I find it very important to remember the gods are playing a variant of mutual assured destruction: The purpose of the Godsmoots and related byzantine protocol is to avoid creating another deicidal Snarl; an explicit breach of agreement carries an implicit "risking my otherwise-eternal life, and those of other deities" factor...and by extension, informs the other deities that there's nothing for them to gain in an agreement since it'll be broken even with that risk on the table.

    The Northern gods might collectively be fine with backstabbing Hel to avoid her dreams of being "The Queen of the Northern Pantheon", what with her becoming the queen of them and all...but would the Western gods? The Southern gods? Is having to stand under Hel rather than Odin really worth having to risk their lives every time they want to decide something about the next world, since "they eviscerated one of their own by breaking an agreement at the last moment" will be fresh in everyone's mind?

    It's a big part of why most of the Northern gods only care about "worshippers" in an abstract sense, I think. Once a god is gone, they're gone; but they can throw down some more mortals to serve as worshippers. And Hel's ongoing existence shows the gods' subsistence level (if there is in fact a minimum) is pretty dang low. It's a rather straightforward "if one of us must die, I choose them, on account of them not being me" view.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post

    And
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    there wouldn't be much reason for Durkon's mantra, "do your duty even if it makes you miserable," if Durkon's mother had been doing what made her happy. Clearly, her son becoming a cleric of Thor did not make her happy.
    I think two things are being conflated together erroneously here.

    I think "I've never been prouder of my boy" can be taken at face value in this case. And that "misery-making duty" had nothing to do with Durkon becoming a cleric - it had to do with other things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    You seem to be under the impression that this point invalidates the theory. It does not. Fire suggests Loki without ruling out any other deity. If there had been only one possible god involved in providing that flame, there would be no mystery; even Durkula could have worked it out by process of elimination.

    And
    Spoiler
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    there wouldn't be much reason for Durkon's mantra, "do your duty even if it makes you miserable," if Durkon's mother had been doing what made her happy. Clearly, her son becoming a cleric of Thor did not make her happy. Clearly she was hiding the story of Tenrin's death, and whether he died with or without honor, for a reason. The confluence of {death with (dis)honor, fire magic, and not-Thor} = Loki, not some other deity.


    Since we're pretty clear on the idea that Durkula cannot link the meaning of disparate memories, it stands to reason that the disparate memories will have something hidden in them. I propose this as being reasonable, given what we know.
    Spoiler
    Show
    It's possible to interpret the "do your duty" mantra as an extension of Sigdi honoring Tenrin after his death; the guy did his duty up until the point when he died, which clearly wasn't pleasant for him. Or that could just be an old mantra of hers in general; military training seldom fits conventional molds of "happy", and in the case of the dwarves, duty would be an especially big reason to get involved in said military.

    However, Tenrin's death being dishonorable, I'm willing to believe. Sigdi hiding the reason for it, I'm willing to believe. That one or both of them might have had Cleric levels, even, I'd believe (and it would explain why she's not happy about Durkon becoming a Cleric, if you believe that's what's going on)... she worries for her son's safety.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    You seem to be under the impression that this point invalidates the theory. It does not. Fire suggests Loki without ruling out any other deity. If there had been only one possible god involved in providing that flame, there would be no mystery; even Durkula could have worked it out by process of elimination.
    It also suggest Sunna (Goddess of the Sun) and Surtur (Lord of the Fire Giants).

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    And
    there wouldn't be much reason for Durkon's mantra, "do your duty even if it makes you miserable," if Durkon's mother had been doing what made her happy.
    Are you saying that insisting on paying back gifts from friends despite being a one-armed (probably) jobless single mother living in near destitution or, as I proposed before, giving away considerable wealth because she thought she could not in good conscience enjoy said money is not "doing your duty even if it makes you miserable" or that she is somehow enjoying it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    Clearly, her son becoming a cleric of Thor did not make her happy
    thatis not clear to me. She gives a perfectly valid reason not to be enjoying the feast* 100% and look as proud and happy as a stick figure can look during the actual ordination. If anyone looks grumpy it's the grandfather (is he Sigdi's father or Tenrin's by the way?).

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    Clearly she was hiding the story of Tenrin's death, and whether he died with or without honor, for a reason. The confluence of {death with (dis)honor, fire magic, and not-Thor} = Loki, not some other deity.
    Agree, there is something fishy. About Tenrin, not Sigdi.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    Since we're pretty clear on the idea that Durkula cannot link the meaning of disparate memories, it stands to reason that the disparate memories will have something hidden in them. I propose this as being reasonable, given what we know.
    I agree. However if your theory is: Sigdi had her squad use (we don't even know if they made them themselves, they could very well have brought them with them from Firmament) fire-enchanted weapons against an ennemy that they knew would regenerate every wound not made with fire or acid, there is something wrong with the story of Tenrin's death (which is also where the fire comes in) and she wasn't able to stop thinking about her problems when her son became a Cleric therefore she may have been a Lokite, then you will forgive me if I don't find it very likely.

    *We can add to that the possiblity of her being afraid that Durkon is wasting his life trying to fix hers.
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2018-05-14 at 03:53 PM. Reason: Messed up my quotes.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    thatis not clear to me. She gives a perfectly valid reason not to be enjoying the feast* 100% and look as proud and happy as a stick figure can look during the actual ordination. If anyone looks grumpy it's the grandfather (is he Sigdi's father or Tenrin's by the way?).

    Agreed. She seems pretty happy, and he seems pretty grateful to her.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    It also suggest Sunna (Goddess of the Sun) and Surtur (Lord of the Fire Giants).
    My point is only that if there had been only one possibility, Durkula (and, indeed, everyone on the forum) could have immediately made the correct conclusion. It isn't just Durkula that the Giant has to fool; it's us, the audience. He may be giving us hints, but without seeming to.
    Are you saying that insisting on paying back gifts from friends despite being a one-armed (probably) jobless single mother living in near destitution or, as I proposed before, giving away considerable wealth because she thought she could not in good conscience enjoy said money is not "doing your duty even if it makes you miserable" or that she is somehow enjoying it?
    That's a lot of grammatical disjunctions to unpack. I can't tell where you intend to separate your clauses.

    In any case, I'm not suggesting that my theory is the only explanation for "do your duty, even if it makes you miserable." I'm saying it is consistent with it. That is all. There may be other explanations.
    thatis not clear to me. She gives a perfectly valid reason not to be enjoying the feast
    And I consider her excuse just that: an excuse. Someone observed that Sigdi didn't look proud, and perhaps we should ask whether there is some truth in it. You apparently accept her justification without further question. I don't.
    Agree, there is something fishy. About Tenrin, not Sigdi.
    I feel there is much greater narrative power in having Sigdi be the person with the secret double life. For one thing, Durkon thinks he knows her; for another, Durkon can talk to her. It puts the Tenrin-Sigdi relationship and the Durkon-Hilgya relationship on precisely the same footing and makes Kudzu a proxy for Durkon's own upbringing: Cleric of Loki mother, absent father. It makes Durkon re-visit his opinion of Hilgya, for whom he now has someone to use as a comparator. Also, it allows Sigdi to embody Durkon's central philosophy and that of his god's mortal enemy simultaneously, while honoring his own chosen deity that his mother specifically hand-raised him to follow. In my view, there's a lot more story meat on those bones.

    What do we get from a revelation about Durkon's father? "Son, the man you never knew isn't the man you never knew. You remember all those stories you were never meant to hear because I told people not to tell you? It's time to tell you about them." "Oh no! You lied to me and kept secrets from me, which I already knew, because you were already keeping secrets from me." It's not terribly dramatic by comparison. It takes the dramatic tension on Tenrin, who cannot be present for the reveal, and places it on Sigdi in the form of hearsay. The urgency that Durkon is home outweighs the urgency of a hundred-year-old secret. Durkon has no reason to ask "Hey, are you willing to tell me about Dad now?" because nothing has changed. It doesn't put Hilgya in a sympathetic light. It doesn't draw the same parallels; in fact, it suggests that Durkon should take the child away from Hilgya and raise it himself, to guarantee Kudzu follows in Thor's path, because that's how his own mother raised him.

    Of course, the Giant is quite capable of writing a good story, in whichever direction he chooses to take it, and I'm confident he would do well no matter where the story is headed. I can't rule out anything about Tenrin Thundershield, and I'm not saying it's impossible for that story to be good. I personally see more potential the other way.
    However if your theory is: Sigdi had her squad use ... fire-enchanted weapons against an ennemy that they knew would regenerate every wound not made with fire or acid [link removed], there is something wrong with the story of Tenrin's death ... and she wasn't able to stop thinking about her problems when her son became a Cleric therefore she may have been a Lokite, then you will forgive me if I don't find it very likely.
    I wouldn't phrase it that way, no. I would phrase it "Tenrin would have wanted his son to follow in his footsteps, and Sigdi loved him, so she vowed to raise Durkon in that way regardless of the personal cost." But if you want to reduce it to that, sure, have it your way. I suppose it won't be long before we see what's really going on.

    As for "something wrong with the story of Tenrin's death," I agree: we haven't been told everything, but I don't see how the gaps in story specifically prove or disprove any theory about Sigdi or Tenrin. They're missing facts, not dispositive ones.
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    Default Re: OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    In any case, I'm not suggesting that my theory is the only explanation for "do your duty, even if it makes you miserable." I'm saying it is consistent with it. That is all. There may be other explanations.
    I enjoyed your musing, and will be interested to see how close you got.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    My point is only that if there had been only one possibility, Durkula (and, indeed, everyone on the forum) could have immediately made the correct conclusion. It isn't just Durkula that the Giant has to fool; it's us, the audience. He may be giving us hints, but without seeming to.
    Alright.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    That's a lot of grammatical disjunctions to unpack. I can't tell where you intend to separate your clauses.
    Are you saying
    (insisting on paying back gifts from friends despite being a one-armed (probably) jobless single mother living in near destitution) / (giving away considerable wealth because she thought she could not in good conscience enjoy said money) is not "doing your duty even if it makes you miserable"
    or*
    Sigdi is enjoying the ()/() above
    ?
    *This is an inclusive "or".
    In any case, I'm not suggesting that my theory is the only explanation for "do your duty, even if it makes you miserable." I'm saying it is consistent with it. That is all. There may be other explanations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    And I consider her excuse just that: an excuse. Someone observed that Sigdi didn't look proud, and perhaps we should ask whether there is some truth in it. You apparently accept her justification without further question. I don't.
    I tend to assume that people that when character give information that is consistent with everything else and we are not given reasons to doubt their word (considering how Durkon turned out to be, I think it is safe to say that Sigdi's education did not emphatize deceitas much as honesty) they are telling the truth.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    I feel there is much greater narrative power in having Sigdi be the person with the secret double life. For one thing, Durkon thinks he knows her; for another, Durkon can talk to her. It puts the Tenrin-Sigdi relationship and the Durkon-Hilgya relationship on precisely the same footing and makes Kudzu a proxy for Durkon's own upbringing: Cleric of Loki mother, absent father. It makes Durkon re-visit his opinion of Hilgya, for whom he now has someone to use as a comparator. Also, it allows Sigdi to embody Durkon's central philosophy and that of his god's mortal enemy simultaneously, while honoring his own chosen deity that his mother specifically hand-raised him to follow. In my view, there's a lot more story meat on those bones.
    I disagree. Remember that this memory already happened by the time of Dorukan's Dungeon, whatever revelation we are about to see, he already knew when he spurned Hilgya. So it would be inconsistent for this revelation to be that Thor and Loki's teachings can cohabit in a single person.
    If say, the story was that Tenrin and Sigdi discovering her pregnancy had a severe argument about their relationship and the way Durkon was to be raised and that argument was somehow partially responsible for Tenrin's death (feeling rejected by Sigdi he threw himself into unnecessary danger, for example) then this memory, combined with Kudzu's existence would prompt Durkon to re-evaluate his treatment of Hilgya (in a "don't repeat the error of his parents" way).


    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    What do we get from a revelation about Durkon's father? "Son, the man you never knew isn't the man you never knew. You remember all those stories you were never meant to hear because I told people not to tell you? It's time to tell you about them." "Oh no! You lied to me and kept secrets from me, which I already knew, because you were already keeping secrets from me." It's not terribly dramatic by comparison. It takes the dramatic tension on Tenrin, who cannot be present for the reveal, and places it on Sigdi in the form of hearsay.
    Dead parents are often a major influence on their kids. It is so easy to idealize someone who isn't there. Also Durkon's line of "it be interesting" coupled with Sigdi's name on the wall would indicate that he would initiate the conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    The urgency that Durkon is home outweighs the urgency of a hundred-year-old secret.
    What urgency? This is a memory we are talking about, Durkon has known this since before the comic started.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    Durkon has no reason to ask "Hey, are you willing to tell me about Dad now?" because nothing has changed. It doesn't put Hilgya in a sympathetic light. It doesn't draw the same parallels; in fact, it suggests that Durkon should take the child away from Hilgya and raise it himself, to guarantee Kudzu follows in Thor's path, because that's how his own mother raised him.
    See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    Of course, the Giant is quite capable of writing a good story, in whichever direction he chooses to take it, and I'm confident he would do well no matter where the story is headed. I can't rule out anything about Tenrin Thundershield, and I'm not saying it's impossible for that story to be good. I personally see more potential the other way.
    Seconded but the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    I wouldn't phrase it that way, no. I would phrase it "Tenrin would have wanted his son to follow in his footsteps, and Sigdi loved him, so she vowed to raise Durkon in that way regardless of the personal cost."
    The thing is I really don't see anything that would suggest Sigdi is only pretending to be the second-best dwarf to ever dwarf even if for her son's and late husband's sakes. Then again maybe it's just that I don't like the reveals of "absolutely everything you knew about that character was a lie". It just destroys all emotionnal involvment you had with them

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    But if you want to reduce it to that, sure, have it your way. I suppose it won't be long before we see what's really going on.
    Wait and see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fish View Post
    As for "something wrong with the story of Tenrin's death," I agree: we haven't been told everything, but I don't see how the gaps in story specifically prove or disprove any theory about Sigdi or Tenrin. They're missing facts, not dispositive ones.
    Oh they don't (dis)prove anything this is just sterile speculation, but what else could we do waiting for the next comic An archive binge?
    And should your theory turn out tobe the right one I trust the Giant to pull it out with maestria.
    I am just, respectfully, pointing out why Idon't believe it will.
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