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Thread: Social Surprise

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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Social Surprise

    Scenario 1:
    An orcish raiding party marches down a mountain road towards an unsuspecting village. They find their path blocked by a fallen tree. Suddenly, arrows and spells fly from the underbrush, where a band of heroes lay concealed. Surprised by this attack, the orcs scramble about confusedly, as the heroes emerge to scatter them.

    Scenario 2:
    The heroes have arranged a parley with the orcish war leaders. During the meeting, they are charming, respectful, and conciliatory. The orcs, confident of an easy victory, drop their guard. As the lead adventurer shakes hands with the orc chieftain, he suddenly produces a dagger from his sleeve and buries it in the chieftain's heart. The other orc leaders, surprised by the betrayal, are stunned and confused long enough for the other heroes to produce concealed weapons and cut them down.

    By the rules presented in the beginning of Chapter 9 of the PHB, only in the first of these two scenarios would the orcs be surprised. Does that seem strange to anybody else? My party recently tried something like the second scenario, and the DM ruled (correctly, RAW) that the enemy would not be surprised. Is there something in any one of the books which allows the entirely plausible concept of "social surprise" to be executed? If not, does anybody have particular house rules as for how it might work? Should it be harder or easier to execute than the traditional "concealed ambush" variety?
    The desire to appear clever often impedes actually being so.

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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Social Surprise

    If the enemy are aware of a threat at the time initiative is called for then they are not surprised.

    It is entirely possible to obtain surprise in a social setting.

    That said I highly doubt the orcs were surprised.

    Would your player characters be surprised if some really friendly and charming orcs run by the dungeon Master suddenly decided to stab you?

    Consider a case where I have used alter self to conceal myself to be one of your friends or family. I then pull out a concealed knife and stab you.

    That later case is definitely surprise.

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    PirateCaptain

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    Makes me think of this. It may work in some situations, but not all. It's more dependent on who has their guard up in a social situation I think.
    Last edited by DrowPiratRobrts; 2018-05-17 at 12:31 PM.
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    ...But I concur you got to bump that con up to around 14 or be prepared to enjoy Proficiency in death Saving throws.
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    Default Re: Social Surprise

    If a combat start and someone was not ready/expecting it, they're surprised.

    It doesn't matter if it's because you got ambushed or if you didn't expect an attack after several hours of effective peace talks.

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    I allow social surprise rolls, usually deception bs insight, in rare (in my game) circumstances. Classic example: you're at a ball or banquet and assassins disguised as waiters attack.

    Orcs or any other race being surprised at a negotiating table with their traditional enemies? No way. They'll be ready for trouble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Orcs or any other race being surprised at a negotiating table with their traditional enemies? No way. They'll be ready for trouble.
    Yeah, I tend to agree with that. They'd be ready even if they thought they held the advantage. An exceptional circumstance might be if the party had their weapons confiscated and someone uses magic or a soul bound weapon to quickly kill one of them. That's much more surprising than one of the PCs trying to surprise the orcs by punching one of them or something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    ...But I concur you got to bump that con up to around 14 or be prepared to enjoy Proficiency in death Saving throws.
    Quote Originally Posted by Man_Over_Game View Post
    Worst-case scenario, it gets ignored and pushed back to page 2, AKA The Phantom Zone, never to be seen again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    I allow social surprise rolls, usually deception bs insight, in rare (in my game) circumstances. Classic example: you're at a ball or banquet and assassins disguised as waiters attack.

    Orcs or any other race being surprised at a negotiating table with their traditional enemies? No way. They'll be ready for trouble.
    Isn't that instinctive distrust exactly what the Deception roll is meant to be disarming? Fooling somebody into thinking they're not in danger? It may be easier to convince people at a party than at a parley that you mean no harm, but that could just be accounted for by advantage/disadvantage.
    The desire to appear clever often impedes actually being so.

    What makes the vanity of others offensive is the fact that it wounds our own.

    Quarrels don't last long if the fault is only on one side.

    Nothing is given so generously as advice.

    We hardly ever find anyone of good sense, except those who agree with us.

    -Francois, Duc de La Rochefoucauld

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catullus64 View Post
    Isn't that instinctive distrust exactly what the Deception roll is meant to be disarming? Fooling somebody into thinking they're not in danger? It may be easier to convince people at a party than at a parley that you mean no harm, but that could just be accounted for by advantage/disadvantage.
    That doesn't really work in a situation where someone is expecting to be attacked/deceived.

    Take an example of buying a used car.

    Buy it from a dealer. Pretty much everyone expects they're going to get screwed and assume 50% or greater of all the words coming from the dealer's mouth are lies. Since the assumption is the dealer is a liar the buyer is already tense. No amount of convincing is going is going get the buyer to believe that the dealer is on their side.

    Buy it from craigslist. There's probably a little bit more give here but the buyer is still likely to think they're going to be taken advantage of. The buyer is mostly sure that the seller is trying to take advantage of them, and likely distrust the seller, but they're less sure the seller is out to take advantage of them.

    Buy it from a neighbor. Very few people expect to have their neighbor take advantage of them. While the risk deception remains the buyer is more likely to be receptive to manipulation/deciet.

    Buy it from family. Very few people expect family to actively take advantage of them (yeah, yeah people have families that suck, but we're talking generalities here). In this situation the buyer is very likely to believe the seller and be more open to manipulation.

    There's a limit to how a far deception can take you given context. The signing of a peace treaty is likely to be a tense situation and they'll be on guard. In addition any orc who's sole duty is to protect their chief is very unlikely to be completely taken by surprise. It's their purpose to react to threats their chief, regardless of their perception of safety.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Corpsecandle717 View Post
    That doesn't really work in a situation where someone is expecting to be attacked/deceived.

    Take an example of buying a used car.

    Buy it from a dealer. Pretty much everyone expects they're going to get screwed and assume 50% or greater of all the words coming from the dealer's mouth are lies. Since the assumption is the dealer is a liar the buyer is already tense. No amount of convincing is going is going get the buyer to believe that the dealer is on their side.
    I'd say this is exactly what deception covers, possibly with a disadvantage though. I've talked to a number of people that go to used car lots expecting to get completely swindled and then promise to buy a car anyway. My coworker just the other day would have walked away with a car she didn't want if they had had it in the lot instead of a cooperating lot. She test drove a car that did not have 3/4 things she required in a car and almost bought it anyway.The salesman was just that good and told her just what she wanted to hear.

    I've been reading some of the Discworld books by Terry Pratchet that star Moist Von Lipwig and they show a wonderful example of a conman using deceit in numerous situations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catullus64 View Post
    Isn't that instinctive distrust exactly what the Deception roll is meant to be disarming? Fooling somebody into thinking they're not in danger? It may be easier to convince people at a party than at a parley that you mean no harm, but that could just be accounted for by advantage/disadvantage.
    Not to me. That's an automatic success. You're very aware the opponents are dangerous and until recently wanted to kill you. There's no chance of surprise of any kinda any more than in a mexican standoff.

    Edit: To be clear, the reason I said "Not to me" is judging what's automatically successful, requires a roll, or is automatic failure is each individual DMs job. Other DMs may not agree with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    Orcs or any other race being surprised at a negotiating table with their traditional enemies? No way. They'll be ready for trouble.
    Curse your sudden, but inevitable betrayal!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Corpsecandle717 View Post
    There's a limit to how a far deception can take you given context. The signing of a peace treaty is likely to be a tense situation and they'll be on guard. In addition any orc who's sole duty is to protect their chief is very unlikely to be completely taken by surprise. It's their purpose to react to threats their chief, regardless of their perception of safety.
    I think you might be confusing orcs with hobgoblins. :) I would imagine the orcs would be too busy hazing the poor humans (et. al.) that they're forcing into signing a peace treaty to be very alert to deception. And I don't think an orc chief who had bodyguards is likely to remain chief much longer--needing proection looks too much like a sign of weakness. (Obviously, this is all dependent on the particulars of various cultures in your game world.)

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    To determine surprise in the ambush situation, the party makes dex/stealth checks vs the targets' perception. They might have advantage, because they've prepared hiding places.

    To determine surprise in the hidden dagger situation, I might have the attacker make a dex check w/sleight of hand proficiency vs wis/perception or maybe dex saving throw by the target. Maybe advantage is given in the situation if there had been prior successful charisma/deception checks that had the targets in a trusting mood. Success means you have surprise. After the surprise attack, everyone rolls initiative

    In both cases, surprise can be determined by calling for ability checks, as the rules recommend. Unless the DM wants to simply declare that the PCs have surprise (or they don't have surprise), which is a thing they can do, just based on their judgment of the situation.

    I'd tend to go with rolling checks for it, since it's more objective. The players may like it if I award them automatic surprise, but they sure would not like it if I awarded it against them in similar situations.

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    An easy way to check most rulings is to flip them around.

    Take a situation where the party were talking to some creatures and the creatures suddenly attacked. The DM then declared that the characters were surprised. How would the players react?

    The players would likely be upset. It would also create a situation where the players proclaim they attack whatever they see as soon as they see it so they don't get surprised.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrudd View Post
    To determine surprise in the ambush situation, the party makes dex/stealth checks vs the targets' perception. They might have advantage, because they've prepared hiding places.

    To determine surprise in the hidden dagger situation, I might have the attacker make a dex check w/sleight of hand proficiency vs wis/perception or maybe dex saving throw by the target. Maybe advantage is given in the situation if there had been prior successful charisma/deception checks that had the targets in a trusting mood. Success means you have surprise. After the surprise attack, everyone rolls initiative

    In both cases, surprise can be determined by calling for ability checks, as the rules recommend. Unless the DM wants to simply declare that the PCs have surprise (or they don't have surprise), which is a thing they can do, just based on their judgment of the situation.

    I'd tend to go with rolling checks for it, since it's more objective. The players may like it if I award them automatic surprise, but they sure would not like it if I awarded it against them in similar situations.
    Usual caveat for a DM asking for Ability checks applies though. A DM could rule that 'Nope, the Orcs are wary of you, and no amount of Deception/ Persuasion is going to change that'

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    Quote Originally Posted by ad_hoc View Post
    An easy way to check most rulings is to flip them around.

    Take a situation where the party were talking to some creatures and the creatures suddenly attacked. The DM then declared that the characters were surprised. How would the players react?

    The players would likely be upset. It would also create a situation where the players proclaim they attack whatever they see as soon as they see it so they don't get surprised.
    I'd still call for deception vs insight if it was the NPCs trying to gain surprise. I'd give the PCs/NPCs advantage or disadvantage if it seemed appropriate, and would rule the deception attempt an outright failure if the PCs were obviously wary.

    In line with your point, however, I would not rule the surprise attempt an automatic success when NPCs were attempting it (absent extreme circumstances) even though I might with PCs. However, I don't see any reason this a problem: PCs at my table typically have a noticably lower bar to clear for automatic success on contested rolls than NPCs do, because making the game fun for the NPCs isn't a factor in my decision making.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ad_hoc View Post
    An easy way to check most rulings is to flip them around.

    Take a situation where the party were talking to some creatures and the creatures suddenly attacked. The DM then declared that the characters were surprised. How would the players react?

    The players would likely be upset. It would also create a situation where the players proclaim they attack whatever they see as soon as they see it so they don't get surprised.
    Yup.

    Personally, my adjudicating surprise situations is strict:
    - Unless there's an intentionally attempted ambush planned in advance by one side, and a clear case of the other side not expecting any danger, surprise automatically does not happen.
    - If both of those are true, then surprise must be rolled for. The roll involved may be a variant from the usual Stealth vs Passive Perception, including involving adv or disadv or group checks etc, at my discretion.
    - Attempting to surprise can never be automatically successful.

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    Default Re: Social Surprise

    If it were up to me, I'd say the Orcs were surprised.

    Lets face it, the Orcs have been having peace talks, no weapons have been readied, and they're about to shake hands, then BAM out of nowhere one of these random peacetalkers has stabbed the chief. It wasn't expected, and even if they were on edge, the OP said that they began to relax and drop their guard, which to me, means their not paying as close attention as they should be.

    I have always used Surprise in combat by asking a simple question.

    Who expected a fight to break out at that moment?

    More often than not you can gain advantage in combat by playing against expectations, it's worked in history, and while not looked upon as a GOOD thing, attacking under a peace banner has happened and given the attacking side an advantage (a la surprise).

    A good solution might be to have the stabber roll Initiative with advantage, and then each orc roll initiative too, any orc that got more than the stabber, is not surprised, as they noticed the weapon coming out and have reacted by grabbing theirs, so there's no surprise round against them, any that rolled lower are just standing with a gormless expression as it all happens. Then roll initiative for combat, (the PCs have to check if their surprised as well unless they talked about it before as a group and one player isn't just doing what they like).

    However, I would bear in mind, if the players want to get away with something like that, let them. But remind them, that they are setting a precedent for the game, that you will then be able to do this sort of thing back to them following the same rules. So you can have someone in peace talks stab them to gain surprise in combat.

    Ultimately, you've got to play to the table. If the players want it to grant them Surprise and they planned for it, sure. I'd rule it like an ambush, because I reckon if you look at the first situation in the OP, it says the orcs came across a tree barring their way, you can see a tree fallen across the road for a fair way off, and I can't think of any raider worth their salt who wouldn't think "Hmm a barricade, might be a good spot for an ambush" yet you would still say they got surprise for attacking in a fairly obvious ambush, and the stabbing from a hidden blade in the sleeve gives a lot less time to think about and react against it, hence, in my mind, surprise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowImmor View Post
    Who expected a fight to break out at that moment?
    My answer to this is based on evaluating three things:
    Were they armed? Are they PCs, or facing PCs, in a environment other than a somewhat relaxed social situation? Can they perceive the other side before combat begins, especially at close range (standing right there)?

    If yes to all, they were alert enough to the possibility of a fight that surprise is not possible when combat begins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LankyOgre View Post
    I'd say this is exactly what deception covers, possibly with a disadvantage though. I've talked to a number of people that go to used car lots expecting to get completely swindled and then promise to buy a car anyway. My coworker just the other day would have walked away with a car she didn't want if they had had it in the lot instead of a cooperating lot. She test drove a car that did not have 3/4 things she required in a car and almost bought it anyway.The salesman was just that good and told her just what she wanted to hear.

    I've been reading some of the Discworld books by Terry Pratchet that star Moist Von Lipwig and they show a wonderful example of a conman using deceit in numerous situations.

    Yeah I was posting in the middle of a slow spot during a conference and didn't get to articulate my point well so I'll try to elaborate more.

    The key is that outcome does not inherently reflect state of mind. Especially when faced with reality. The heart to the OPs argument is that the orcs were so snowballed into believing that they had the upper hand that betrayal by the humans actually stopped their brains from working for a round.

    So in the case of your co-worker buying the car she didn't need, yes the stealer was able to convince her that she wanted to buy a car that didn't have all the stuff she needed. However when faced with the fact that the car didn't have all the things she needed, would she still have purchased the car? Or would she have even been stunned to inaction by the fact that car didn't suit her purpose?

    Lets assume for the sake of argument one of your co-workers primary needs was space to pile four kids and all their sports gear into the car she was purchasing. Yes the stealer would probably be able to convince her that x cubic feet listed on the brochure is more than enough storage for her kids and their stuff. However what if she had her kinds and all their crap with her? Then after attempting to shove all those kids in there, with one kid on another's lap and still having a bag of hockey gear and catchers gear still sitting on the ground outside the car, do you think she would have been, "Wait what!?! How is it physics work this way?" Or is it more likely she would have thought to herself, "Yeah I thought so". Basically would her world have been so shaken she would have stopped thinking, unable to process for a while?

    Yes this whole scenario unfolds much slower than the 'surprise dagger!' scenario outlined by the OP, but it illustrates the mindsets involved.

    It's an extremely complex social scenario, with a bazillion elements that the players don't get insight into. Which is why DnD has avoided creating complex rules for it and just said "face to face means everyone roles initiative" and left the intricacies to the DM, so a successful deception role shouldn't be the sole standard to dictate the results.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xetheral View Post
    I think you might be confusing orcs with hobgoblins. :) I would imagine the orcs would be too busy hazing the poor humans (et. al.) that they're forcing into signing a peace treaty to be very alert to deception. And I don't think an orc chief who had bodyguards is likely to remain chief much longer--needing proection looks too much like a sign of weakness. (Obviously, this is all dependent on the particulars of various cultures in your game world.)
    Fair, but who's to say that the orcs weren't bristling for a fight and that signing a treaty would be distastful? Or that the death of their clan chief by outsiders, humans at that, wouldn't be a major slight on their clan honor? It's never cut and dry, NPCs can have different motivations too.
    Last edited by Corpsecandle717; 2018-05-18 at 10:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ad_hoc View Post
    An easy way to check most rulings is to flip them around.

    Take a situation where the party were talking to some creatures and the creatures suddenly attacked. The DM then declared that the characters were surprised. How would the players react?

    The players would likely be upset. It would also create a situation where the players proclaim they attack whatever they see as soon as they see it so they don't get surprised.
    I tend to have a lot of double standards in favor of players, and let them get away with things that would justifiably piss them off if they happened to them, like the social surprise scenario. Since the DM is there to create fun for the players, and not to treat both the players and the NPC's fairly, the same standards don't have to apply in reverse.

    From a mechanical perspective (which I realize is not the entire picture) the social stealth option is very much the same as stealth classic: The aggressive party makes a check to conceal their incoming attack (Stealth in one case, Deception in the other) and their targets make a check (Perception, Insight) to spot the danger. Anyone who fails to spot the danger in time is surprised. Having some friendly people suddenly attack you and being surprised by it is no more unfair than having them attack you from concealment. That said, I fully concede that the manner in which the DM presents the ambush could make it feel unfair
    The desire to appear clever often impedes actually being so.

    What makes the vanity of others offensive is the fact that it wounds our own.

    Quarrels don't last long if the fault is only on one side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    My answer to this is based on evaluating three things:
    Were they armed? Are they PCs, or facing PCs, in a environment other than a somewhat relaxed social situation? Can they perceive the other side before combat begins, especially at close range (standing right there)?

    If yes to all, they were alert enough to the possibility of a fight that surprise is not possible when combat begins.

    I agree with this, and I'm curious to see what everyone makes a ruling one of my DMs made recently.

    We made a deal with one goblin boss to kill another goblin boss. We kill boss #2, and on the way back, our camp (in a cave) is surrounded by boss #1. After several deception checks, our bard agrees to come out and talk with them, unarmed. She walks out, we all make stealth checks, and rush out towards them.

    DM gave us surprise. Not sure how I feel about that.
    Last edited by strangebloke; 2018-05-18 at 10:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    My answer to this is based on evaluating three things:
    Were they armed? Are they PCs, or facing PCs, in a environment other than a somewhat relaxed social situation? Can they perceive the other side before combat begins, especially at close range (standing right there)?

    If yes to all, they were alert enough to the possibility of a fight that surprise is not possible when combat begins.
    I see your point, a couple of counters to it thought (allow me to play Devil's Advocate)

    There's a different between being armed and expecting combat. Most police forces in the world will carry some form of weapon but can still be surprised by fights breaking out. So being armed and having a weapon drawn would make the difference, the weapon being drawn indicates intent, a weapon holstered would be normal for nearly every creature in D&D. Even peasants are likely to carry daggers or knives to protect themselves.

    I would argue that being a PC doesn't matter. The NPCs don't know they're in a game (please no metaphysical nonsense :P), ask yourself, if this was a story you were telling someone else, or writing, and ignoring the fact there were players behind the actions, how would it be written? One guy takes out a dagger at the end of the peace talks and stabs the chieftain dead, and immediately without even a few seconds hesitation and surprise everyone in the room is attacking one another? Or he stabs him, the room explodes into a frenzy after everyone pauses to take in what happened over a few seconds? The second is a more realistic scenario. NPCs shouldn't get magical combat sensing treating just because they're up against the PCs, as far as an NPC is concerned these guys were just diplomats.

    Again, just being able to perceive someone doesn't mean you'd be ready if a fight breaks out. The question I ask, is which parties are PREPARED for combat, admittedly, RAW they wouldn't get Surprise, but RAI there are lots of situations you could get advantage without being explicitly stated in the rules, the idea of "Rulings not Rules" implies a DM can make decision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    DM gave us surprise. Not sure how I feel about that.
    Your DM's interpretation seems spot-on to me. The scenario you describe sounds like one in which the goblins have some reason to believe that the've secured a surrender, and the Deception check is simply to sell them on that.

    The thread seems to hinge a great deal upon people's assessments of human character, and how susceptible people are to being deceived. My conception of reality (and thus the reality I tend to reflect when playing games) is that people deceive themselves all the time, and if you can seize upon what a particular person wants to see or believe, you can sell them upon some pretty outlandish things. Depending on the finesse of the deceiver, this can extend even to willful ignorance of danger. Factors of individual and circumstance may make such manipulation harder, but something being harder is what we have advantage and disadvantage for.
    The desire to appear clever often impedes actually being so.

    What makes the vanity of others offensive is the fact that it wounds our own.

    Quarrels don't last long if the fault is only on one side.

    Nothing is given so generously as advice.

    We hardly ever find anyone of good sense, except those who agree with us.

    -Francois, Duc de La Rochefoucauld

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    Default Re: Social Surprise

    Quote Originally Posted by strangebloke View Post
    I agree with this, and I'm curious to see what everyone makes a ruling one of my DMs made recently.

    We made a deal with one goblin boss to kill another goblin boss. We kill boss #2, and on the way back, our camp (in a cave) is surrounded by boss #1. After several deception checks, our bard agrees to come out and talk with them, unarmed. She walks out, we all make stealth checks, and rush out towards them.

    DM gave us surprise. Not sure how I feel about that.
    Not under RAW without DM intervention to change the check in someway. Because surprise is determined by an entire side, and the Bard was clearly visible. A single failed stealth check by any threat (using the default surprise rules) is sufficient that you are not surprised, and the Bard could not make a check.

    That said, the rules aren't clear what happens if you've got separate groups, which you effectively had in this situation. OTOH it seems that in order to be surprised, you need to be unaware of any potential threat. So what I said above *should* still hold. They're aware of the Bard, no possibility of surprise (via Stealth).

    They could still stealth to get advantage on their ranged attacks though.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowImmor View Post
    I see your point, a couple of counters to it thought (allow me to play Devil's Advocate)

    There's a different between being armed and expecting combat. Most police forces in the world will carry some form of weapon but can still be surprised by fights breaking out. So being armed and having a weapon drawn would make the difference, the weapon being drawn indicates intent, a weapon holstered would be normal for nearly every creature in D&D. Even peasants are likely to carry daggers or knives to protect themselves.
    Clearly the rules don't require you have weapons drawn to determine intent, and I think we both would think that's a little silly. But I take your point that there's no particular reason that we should determine intent purely by "armed". But I was thinking of more than a dagger or knife. Conversely, Monks and many casters routinely aren't armed anyway. In a situation where someone is intentionally carrying a non-peacebonded weapon, to me that indicates a clear positive intent and level of awareness, but the opposite is not necessarily true. But I can see where you might not agree.

    I would argue that being a PC doesn't matter.
    It matters because the game is about the PCs to a large degree. So any ruling involved needs to be consistent both ways, and not screw them over when they are on the receiving end of it.

    Again, just being able to perceive someone doesn't mean you'd be ready if a fight breaks out. The question I ask, is which parties are PREPARED for combat, admittedly, RAW they wouldn't get Surprise, but RAI there are lots of situations you could get advantage without being explicitly stated in the rules, the idea of "Rulings not Rules" implies a DM can make decision.
    I agree it's a question of preparedness. My rulings on it is fairly strict on the preparedness front and makes surprise somewhat difficult to achieve. I'm arguing from a position of "this is my personal way of ruling on preparedness for combat affecting the ability to get surprise". In the OP's situation I'd say automatically no surprise.
    Last edited by Tanarii; 2018-05-18 at 11:55 AM. Reason: fix quote tags

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    Default Re: Social Surprise

    Quote Originally Posted by Catullus64 View Post
    I tend to have a lot of double standards in favor of players, and let them get away with things that would justifiably piss them off if they happened to them, like the social surprise scenario. Since the DM is there to create fun for the players, and not to treat both the players and the NPC's fairly, the same standards don't have to apply in reverse.
    That is not an unreasonable approach to the game. The PCs are the protagonists in an action story. (Though I do disagree with your representation of the DM. I believe that all people at the table are there to create fun for each other. The only exception would be if the DM (or player) were paid for providing entertainment.)

    2 things to consider:

    1. This will encourage PCs to aim for this outcome whenever they encounter other creatures. An egregious example of this would allowing players to describe how they are attacking in order to deal more damage. I was in a game once where a player said: "I attack by raising my axe up as high as I can and then I bring it down on the enemy." This was all well and good except once he hit he said; "how much extra damage do I do because I get extra force for raising it up?" He was a new player and the DM explained that the damage die represents landing a good blow. If the DM instead ruled extra damage then this is what would happen in every attack, becoming tedious rather than fun.
    2. The players may find these rulings to make the game less challenging and/or the decision space more constrained. Benefiting the characters is not equal to creating fun for the players.


    If this is a thing that people want to do I would suggest this: Provide advantage to the characters on their initiative as the enemy creatures are caught off guard. Surprise is reserved for being caught entirely unawares.

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    Default Re: Social Surprise

    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowImmor View Post
    If it were up to me, I'd say the Orcs were surprised.

    Lets face it, the Orcs have been having peace talks, no weapons have been readied, and they're about to shake hands, then BAM out of nowhere one of these random peacetalkers has stabbed the chief. It wasn't expected, and even if they were on edge, the OP said that they began to relax and drop their guard, which to me, means their not paying as close attention as they should be.
    Dude they're Orcs.

    They live in a society where that kind of treachery and violence is commonplace.

    I mean, if the DM pulled that in reverse to you (the Orcs seem friendly guys... BAM SURPRISE!) wouldnt you argue that there was no way in hell your PC would be trusting Orcs, let alone ones you've only just met?

    If no sane PC would trust a bunch of Orcs, why are the Orcs trusting anyone else? They live with deception, murder and treachery as a daily freaking occurrence!

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    Default Re: Social Surprise

    Quote Originally Posted by Malifice View Post
    Dude they're Orcs.

    They live in a society where that kind of treachery and violence is commonplace.

    I mean, if the DM pulled that in reverse to you (the Orcs seem friendly guys... BAM SURPRISE!) wouldnt you argue that there was no way in hell your PC would be trusting Orcs, let alone ones you've only just met?

    If no sane PC would trust a bunch of Orcs, why are the Orcs trusting anyone else? They live with deception, murder and treachery as a daily freaking occurrence!
    I would imagine the Orcs are likely to trust in their own superiority when they believe they've subjugated a foe. That over-confidence is fertile ground for deception and social engineering.

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    Default Re: Social Surprise

    Quote Originally Posted by Xetheral View Post
    I would imagine the Orcs are likely to trust in their own superiority when they believe they've subjugated a foe. That over-confidence is fertile ground for deception and social engineering.
    Because orcs arent likely to beat a foe, demonstrate treachery, or expect the same treatment in return?

    Its literally all they know.

    Encountering some Orcs in a dungeon, lowering weapons and talking to them for a bit before attacking them only delays initiative as far as im concerned. Same deal if you're ambassadors sent to an Orc villiage to convince them to stop raiding.

    Vice versas if an Orc ambasador from the local marauding villiage or a prisoner or whatever was in the PCs care. I expect the PCs to be wary of the Orc, and I wouldnt make them surprised.

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    Default Re: Social Surprise

    Well.. leaving the orcs for a moment, what are the party expecting in situation 2? Even if they agreed beforehand to betray the agreement, did they have a signal or know at which exact moment the attack would be started?

    Maybe you can catch some people off guard right at the moment (not necessarily RAW), but I think the party would be as surprised as the orcs. So it might only be the attacking party member who is not surprised, and everyone else present is surprised. Which is rather the same as resolving the first attack out of initiative order and then no one being surprised I suppose..

    If the party had a signal for the exact moment of betrayal, perhaps they could react more quickly. A cough or two before the critical moment, or similar, you get the idea. Something to consider.

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