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  1. - Top - End - #61
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread

    I spent a little bit of time looking into expected damage vs. AC 20 (average for CR 8). There are 3 builds so far that seem significant. I'm ignoring critical hits and rolls of 1 for simplicity.

    Double Fleshrakers has an expected damage of 118. This is slightly awkward because you must never be more than 30' apart, but an advantage is that it basically applies to every full attack.

    Immunity Charger has an expected damage of 186 on a Whirling Frenzy charge and 131 on a charge.

    I'm unclear on the damage output of the Fleshraker mount. This one makes my head hurt. If a mount charges does the mounter count as charging? If so, this is extremely potent. Reading through Mounted Combat, it says
    Quote Originally Posted by Mounted Combat
    When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance.
    which seems to imply the answer is 'yes' without explicitly stating it. Spirited Charge makes this triple damage with a lance on any mount, so you are doing: 3x(1d6+5(strength)x1.5(two-handed)+2(enhance)+8(Power Attack)x2(Two-handed))=85.5 expected. This is higher than Lans's calculation. Using that Whirling Frenzy Pounce + the Fleshraker damage (minor) comes to an expected 218 damage which drops to 127 without whirling frenzy.

    I don't understand the Sword/Shield build well enough to evaluate. For example, how is the rogue getting divine favor cast on them? And where is the +4 weapon coming from?

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    I don't understand the Sword/Shield build well enough to evaluate. For example, how is the rogue getting divine favor cast on them? And where is the +4 weapon coming from?
    I'm clearly not finished with those characters (sorry!), but I was trying to demonstrate my oft-stated stance that Rogue is the best buff platform in the game.

    Divine Favor comes from the Cleric via the Ring of Spell Storing. Cleric casts Divine Favor into the Ring, Rogue uses Ring, gets Divine Favor. Greater Magic Weapon is the source of the enchantment on the Rogue's blades.

    Against AC 20, the Rogue should hit 100%/100%/75%/50%(IIRC), for (again, IIRC)(1d3+7+5d6+8)*3.25 = (2+7+17+8)*3.25 = 34*3.25 = 102+9 = 111 expected damage.

    Nowhere near the top of the charts, especially since you have to cut it in half - it's effectively 55 damage per character. Assuming I've done my math right.

  3. - Top - End - #63
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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread

    I find Rogues as the best buff platform a little sketchy, given that they have a class that's a straight upgrade from it - the Rogue really only has Sneak Attack going for it, while the Factotum has better skills due to Int synergy, more class skills (you can't really beat "everything"), ability to delegate just about everything to Intelligence and still gets trapfinding. Heck, Cunning Brilliance allows the Factotum to steal Rogue class features!

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread

    @Quertus:

    I donīt see a need for DMM:P at lower levels. Combat Reflexes, SF:C and Augmented Summoning while using a reach weapon (longspear) will prove to be more practical when it comes to economy of actions and a celestial wolf as a third flanking buddy will help trigger more AoOs, including SA.

  5. - Top - End - #65
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Florian View Post
    @Quertus:

    I donīt see a need for DMM:P at lower levels. Combat Reflexes, SF:C and Augmented Summoning while using a reach weapon (longspear) will prove to be more practical when it comes to economy of actions and a celestial wolf as a third flanking buddy will help trigger more AoOs, including SA.
    Thanks! As you can probably tell, I don't usually play muggles.

    I think, if I tried to optimize a single Rogue, I'd aim for PaO cheese, for truly ridiculous numbers of attacks. Can you imagine the Hydra that can sneak up on you, and gets SA damage with each head? I think most players would start throwing things at their GM if they encountered that beast in the wild.

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    ClericGirl

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    Default Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Thanks! As you can probably tell, I don't usually play muggles.

    I think, if I tried to optimize a single Rogue, I'd aim for PaO cheese, for truly ridiculous numbers of attacks. Can you imagine the Hydra that can sneak up on you, and gets SA damage with each head? I think most players would start throwing things at their GM if they encountered that beast in the wild.
    That's pretty damn effective as a build idea - I'd say it's comparable to a high-op Ubercharger. Still, it has the problem of struggling with enemies immune to sneak attacks (which is an uncomfortably high share of enemies).

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MeimuHakurei View Post
    That's pretty damn effective as a build idea - I'd say it's comparable to a high-op Ubercharger. Still, it has the problem of struggling with enemies immune to sneak attacks (which is an uncomfortably high share of enemies).
    There are some spells that can bypass Sneak Attack immunity, you can get them in wands, if you can afford them.

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread

    I was curious how many of the builds used a gimmick of some sort so I compiled a few of them.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Rogue 8
    25 Point Buy
    Reach, Low Armor Class, Low Hit Points, Low Saves
    Gimmick: Sneak Attack
    WARNINGS:
    Extend Reach - Humans don't qualify
    Flaws
    Trait
    Forgotten Realms Only

    Druid 8
    32 Point Buy
    Darkvision 60 feet, Low-light Vision
    Low Armor Class
    Variant Race
    Gimmick: Summoner, Spellcaster
    Gimmick: Charge - Animal Companion
    WARNING:
    Forgotten Realms Only

    Barbarian 2 Fighter 6
    25 Point Buy
    Multiclass Character
    Limited Ability: Rage
    Rage Variant - Whirling Frenzy
    Gimmick: Mounted
    Gimmick: Charger
    WARNING:
    Homebrew items

    Fighter 8
    25 Point Buy
    Darkvision 30 feet, Low-light Vision
    High Armor Class, Low Speed, Damage Reduction

    Troll
    30 Point Buy
    Darkvision 60 feet, Low-light Vision
    Low Armor Class, Low Will Save, Low Hit Points, Regeneration
    WARNINGS:
    Level 11
    Homebrew Items
    Illegal Starting Strength: 20

    Druid 8
    32 Point Buy
    High Initiative
    Gimmick: Spellcaster
    Gimmick: Charger
    Gimmick: Charger - Animal Companion
    WARNINGS:
    Flaws
    Forgotten Realms Only

    Wizard 8
    32 Point Buy
    Darkvision 60 Feet, Low-light Vision
    Low Armor Class, Low Hit Points, Low Attack Bonus
    Gimmick: Spellcaster, Summoner

    Is actually two characters
    Is actually two characters
    Gimmick: Is actually two characters
    Gimmick: Sneak Attack
    Gimmick: Spellcaster
    WARNINGS
    Singular items are worth more than 50% of character wealth
    Dungeon Master unlikely to accept two characters as singular character
    Forgotten Realms Only

    Frankenclass
    Darkvision 60 Feet
    Non-lethal damage
    Gimmick: Charger
    Gimmick: Undead
    Limited Ability: Rage
    Rage Variant:Whirling Frenzy
    WARNINGS:
    Forgotten Realms Only
    Snow Tiger Berserker only uses light weapons, build uses one-handed weapons
    Flaws
    Only deals non-lethal damage, not immune to damage
    Weapon Specialization without prerequisites
    "Movement speed is the most important statistic in this game."

    "Give them no mercy for they give no mercy to us."

    "I see one of those I kill it!"

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Aegis View Post
    Only deals non-lethal damage, not immune to damage
    There is an ambiguity here, but the theory that Shake It Off only applies to damage dealt seems highly suspect. To get there, you need to believe that class designers intentionally included an option which removes the option of dealing lethal damage and reduces the durations of stuns dealt by the pugilist. It seems more plausible that instead Shake It Off applies to damage received where the conversion to nonlethal and the reduction in stun durations are clear advantages rather than clear nerfs. This also seems more consistent with the name.
    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Aegis View Post
    Weapon Specialization without prerequisites
    This was just a typo: It's Exotic Weapon Proficiency (fixed, thanks).

  10. - Top - End - #70
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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Aegis View Post
    I was curious how many of the builds used a gimmick of some sort so I compiled a few of them.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Rogue 8
    25 Point Buy
    Reach, Low Armor Class, Low Hit Points, Low Saves
    Gimmick: Sneak Attack
    WARNINGS:
    Extend Reach - Humans don't qualify
    Flaws
    Trait
    Forgotten Realms Only

    Druid 8
    32 Point Buy
    Darkvision 60 feet, Low-light Vision
    Low Armor Class
    Variant Race
    Gimmick: Summoner, Spellcaster
    Gimmick: Charge - Animal Companion
    WARNING:
    Forgotten Realms Only

    Barbarian 2 Fighter 6
    25 Point Buy
    Multiclass Character
    Limited Ability: Rage
    Rage Variant - Whirling Frenzy
    Gimmick: Mounted
    Gimmick: Charger
    WARNING:
    Homebrew items

    Fighter 8
    25 Point Buy
    Darkvision 30 feet, Low-light Vision
    High Armor Class, Low Speed, Damage Reduction

    Troll
    30 Point Buy
    Darkvision 60 feet, Low-light Vision
    Low Armor Class, Low Will Save, Low Hit Points, Regeneration
    WARNINGS:
    Level 11
    Homebrew Items
    Illegal Starting Strength: 20

    Druid 8
    32 Point Buy
    High Initiative
    Gimmick: Spellcaster
    Gimmick: Charger
    Gimmick: Charger - Animal Companion
    WARNINGS:
    Flaws
    Forgotten Realms Only

    Wizard 8
    32 Point Buy
    Darkvision 60 Feet, Low-light Vision
    Low Armor Class, Low Hit Points, Low Attack Bonus
    Gimmick: Spellcaster, Summoner

    Is actually two characters
    Is actually two characters
    Gimmick: Is actually two characters
    Gimmick: Sneak Attack
    Gimmick: Spellcaster
    WARNINGS
    Singular items are worth more than 50% of character wealth
    Dungeon Master unlikely to accept two characters as singular character
    Forgotten Realms Only

    Frankenclass
    Darkvision 60 Feet
    Non-lethal damage
    Gimmick: Charger
    Gimmick: Undead
    Limited Ability: Rage
    Rage Variant:Whirling Frenzy
    WARNINGS:
    Forgotten Realms Only
    Snow Tiger Berserker only uses light weapons, build uses one-handed weapons
    Flaws
    Only deals non-lethal damage, not immune to damage
    Weapon Specialization without prerequisites
    Aww... You didn't list mine lol

  11. - Top - End - #71
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Inza View Post
    It just gives DR 1 vs nonlethal, errata in Dragon 313.
    Oh nice. It looks like all 3 of us are wrong. Here's the text from Dragon 313.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shake It Off errata, Dragon 313 page 8
    The pugilist develops fast healing 1 that applies only to nonlethal damage. This ability also reduces the duration of all stunning effects by 1 round. The pugilist can take this ability multiple times; its effects stack.
    This implies the damage immunity is broken so we're back to a glass cannon. Let me see if I can figure out how to fix it...

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Inza View Post
    I guess I remembered that wrong.. been a while. Point was mostly that its not immunity.
    Yeah, thanks.

  13. - Top - End - #73
    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Aegis View Post
    I was curious how many of the builds used a gimmick of some sort so I compiled a few of them.

    Troll
    WARNINGS:
    Level 11
    Homebrew Items
    Illegal Starting Strength: 20
    No, I used Savage Species progression, he's only level 8 - thus the missing HD, regeneration only being 1 HP/round, etc.

    I'm not even sure where you got those other two "homebrew items" from (unless you're confusing paying for spell casting services as a custom item...)

    EDIT: I have no idea how I calculated Yiiksuv's strength stat. Apparently, I can't math.

    EDIT II: I may have used the troll I found online with a much higher strength stat. Or I may have used the original character - who was a half-Dragon troll - as a baseline.
    Last edited by Quertus; 2018-05-22 at 08:13 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread

    It may be worth swapping the rows and columns in your table, AnimeTheCat. Due to the way tables are set up, it's hard to add columns, but easy to add rows. Also, in Western writing, rows can just keep going, whereas columns stop fitting on your page/screen at some point.
    Spoiler: Collectible nice things
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Faily View Post
    Read ExLibrisMortis' post...

    WHY IS THERE NO LIKE BUTTON?!
    Quote Originally Posted by Keledrath View Post
    Libris: look at your allowed sources. I don't think any of your options were from those.
    My incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
    My Ruby Knight Vindicator barsader. A party-buffing melee build (ECL 14).
    Doctor Despair's and my all-natural approach to necromancy.

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    It may be worth swapping the rows and columns in your table, AnimeTheCat. Due to the way tables are set up, it's hard to add columns, but easy to add rows. Also, in Western writing, rows can just keep going, whereas columns stop fitting on your page/screen at some point.
    Duely noted. I've got reformatting to do and that just makes more sense anyway than the way I was doing it.

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Aegis View Post
    Druid 8
    32 Point Buy
    Darkvision 60 feet, Low-light Vision
    Low Armor Class
    Variant Race
    Gimmick: Summoner, Spellcaster
    Gimmick: Charge - Animal Companion
    WARNING:
    Forgotten Realms Only
    Not so sure my build has low AC. It typically (always?) runs around in desmodu hunting bat form with luminous armor, which means between 25 and 29 AC depending on attack type.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Aegis View Post

    Barbarian 2 Fighter 6
    25 Point Buy
    Multiclass Character
    Limited Ability: Rage
    Rage Variant - Whirling Frenzy
    Gimmick: Mounted
    Gimmick: Charger
    WARNING:
    Homebrew items
    What items are homebrew?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    No, I used Savage Species progression, he's only level 8 - thus the missing HD, regeneration only being 1 HP/round, etc.
    That wasn't even remotely clear. I thought you were using something from the revamp la thread.

  18. - Top - End - #78
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertus View Post
    Thanks! As you can probably tell, I don't usually play muggles.

    I think, if I tried to optimize a single Rogue, I'd aim for PaO cheese, for truly ridiculous numbers of attacks. Can you imagine the Hydra that can sneak up on you, and gets SA damage with each head? I think most players would start throwing things at their GM if they encountered that beast in the wild.
    Hm, how to explain it? When it comes to "muggles", itīs not really helpful to look at things in isolation, you've got to look for synergies and viable combat tactics instead. Unlike working with spells and looking what you have and combo with, you must basically anticipate what could be there and come up with stuff that could easily combo under different circumstances.

  19. - Top - End - #79
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread

    I'm making a warforged wizard/spellsword with adamantine body https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1592795

    I was thinking about going focused specialist, combat brute, shocktrooper, and arcane strike, but those feats come online at level 9 without shenanigens. I might take still spell.
    Last edited by Lans; 2018-05-23 at 12:07 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #80
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    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread

    I made some formatting changes to the table in the OP. Let me know if there are any suggestions or changes. Making builds as rows is way more efficient to add to it for sure. Length is difficult with so many columns, so what can I remove or shorten to make it fit a little nicer?

  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Default Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread

    I've decided to open with an example of the idea of a non-magical character taken to its extreme. 25PB (though I honestly prefer 32)

    Race: Karsite
    Class(s): Human Paragon 2/ Forsaker 4/ Warblade 1 (warblade level at 5, 1 point of LA bought off at 6)
    Strength 16 Intelligence 14 Fortitude Save 10 Armor Class 20 HP 56
    Dexterity 16 Wisdom 10 Reflex Save 8 Touch Armor Class 13 Initiative 3
    Constitution 14 Charisma 12 Will Save 9 Flat-Footed Armor Class 17 Speed 40ft (reduced to 30 by medium load)

    Spoiler: Attacks
    Show
    Attack Longsword +10 1D8+3 19-20 X2 5ft
    Attack Guisarme +9 2d4+4 X2 10ft
    Attack Net +5 Entangle - 10ft
    Full Attack Longsword +10/ +5 1d8+3 19-20 X2 5ft


    Spoiler: Equipment/Items
    Show
    Equipment/Item Cost WBL Start (i.e. 27,000 at Lvl 8)
    Weapons 344gp
    Mithral Chain +MWK Dastana 425gp
    Standard Adv Gear* 39.8gp
    Gnome Artificer Device 1** 11,400gp
    Gnome Artificer Device 2** 9,000
    Magebred L. Warhorse w/ Barding 700gp
    Healing Salve X4 4gp
    Jug of Shapesand 100gp
    Explosive Packs X3
    (1 Round Fuse)
    600gp
    Alchemical Sleep X5 150gp
    Ghostoil 250gp
    Chaos Flask X5 500gp
    Trollbane X2 180gp
    Fast Leg Fiendish Graft 4,000gp


    Spoiler: Skills
    Show
    Skill Score Ranks Ability Modifier Miscilaneous Modifiers
    Climb +8 0 +3 +5
    Jump +18 10 +3 +5
    Know (Arch & Eng) +12 10 +2 -
    Listen +10 10 0 -
    Sense Motive +10 10 0 -
    Tumble +13 10 +3 -
    Use Rope (CC) +4 1 +3 -


    Spoiler: Maneuvers Known
    Show
    Maneuver Level Maneuver Name Discipline
    War 2 Disarming Strike Iron Heart
    War 1 Sudden Leap Tiger Claw
    War 2 Mountain Hammer Stone Dragon
    War 1 Punsihing Stance Iron Heart (stance)


    Feats: Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Combat Expertise, Combat Intuition

    Class Features: Adaptive learning [Know (Arch & Eng)], Forsake Magic, Tough Defense (con to AC), Magic Destruction, Natural Weapons, Fast Healing 1 (20 points/ day), Inherent Bonuses to Str and Dex (+2 each), Battle Clarity (int to ref unless FF), Weapon Aptitude, SR 31 (17 racial +14 class; explicitly stacks)

    *Standard Adventuring gear is a backpack, bedroll, 4 belt pouches, waterskin, mess kit, crowbar, collapsible grappling hook w/ silk rope, and bullseye lantern w/ oil.

    **Gnome Artificer Devices (Magic of Faerun page 23 & 24) are completely non-magical and not restricted in their use to gnome artificers. Price doubled from cost to create per ordinary magic items.

    Device 1 on shoulders and arms: Bull's strength (20 charges), spider climb (20 charges), launch item (30 charges), and battering ram (10 charges)

    Device 2 on waist and feet: Cat's Grace (20 charges), Expeditious Retreat (20 charges), and Grease at CL 5 (10 charges)


    And here's a link to the char sheet: Asta The Black Clover.

    Please forgive the blatant ripping off of the name. I'm terrible with names.


    I'll come back with a more normal fighter next.
    I am not seaweed. That's a B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    [...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
    A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign

    Avatar by Tiffanie Lirle

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    DruidGirl

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    Default Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Snip
    The degree to which this build looks super similar to the fleshraker animal companion on my build is a bit shocking. Not sure exactly what your in-combat plan is but a cursory examination implies that I'd probably go with the fleshraker in any sort of bare bones face to face combat scenario. And, to be clear, while you have totally eschewed anything even marginally magical, the fleshraker kinda has too, at least on that character sheet.
    Last edited by eggynack; 2018-05-24 at 03:28 AM.

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    Default Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    The degree to which this build looks super similar to the fleshraker animal companion on my build is a bit shocking. Not sure exactly what your in-combat plan is but a cursory examination implies that I'd probably go with the fleshraker in any sort of bare bones face to face combat scenario. And, to be clear, while you have totally eschewed anything even marginally magical, the fleshraker kinda has too, at least on that character sheet.
    First step is using one of the BFC options or debuffs he's got to weaken the enemy's numbers and/or limit its mobility. Second step is to buff with the appropriate device(s). Final step is to stab it to death

    There's no denying this is pretty close to the upper bound for a non-magical character that's not eschewing magic just for the sake of doing it though. Might make it as far as 13~ish if pushed with everything I've got but certainly not any further. Without the forsaker levels to justify their expense, Lantan Artificer Devices just aren't worth it and forsaker is nigh-worthless without them, symionts, and grafts. For sure, the clothes make the man here.

    Oh, and the irony of being completely non-magical leading to an evil character is not lost on me.
    I am not seaweed. That's a B.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    [...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
    A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign

    Avatar by Tiffanie Lirle

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    Default Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    First step is using one of the BFC options or debuffs he's got to weaken the enemy's numbers and/or limit its mobility. Second step is to buff with the appropriate device(s). Final step is to stab it to death
    If you are taking Karsite for the spell resistance, you might consider the Lesser Bariaur (Planar Handbook) instead as it's LA+1.

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    Default Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread

    Since my first attempt melted down on the Pugilist Errata, here's Immunity Charger II.

    The basic build is Dragonborn[wings] Warforged Bear Totem Barbarian with Whirling Frenzy 1/Fighter 4/Warforged Juggernaut 3 with stats: (24 point buy)
    Str 18(=16+2(levels)), Dex 15(=13-2(Dragonborn)), Con 12(=8+2(Dragonborn)+2(Warforged)), Int 14, Wis 6, Cha 6

    Spoiler: feats
    Show

    Flaw 1: Multiattack
    Flaw 2: Adamantine Body
    Bear Totem Barbarian 1: Toughness
    Level 1: Troll-Blooded
    Fighter 1: Snowtiger Berserker
    Fighter 2: Power Attack
    Level 3: Improved Multiattack
    Fighter 4: Power Lunge
    Goring Horn: Improved Bull Rush
    Level 6: Shocktrooper
    Juggernaut 1: Powerful Charge


    Spoiler: items
    Show

    Spike Stones 4K (Maug graft that increases natural weapon damage by 1d4)
    2x Rending Claw 10K (Illithid graft for 1d6 claw attack)
    Goring Horn 8K (Illithid graft for 1d8 gore attack + improved bull rush)
    Masterwork composite[+4] longbow .8K
    A variety of arrows
    ~4K gp to spend


    The attack routine takes advantage of 3 natural weapons with no penalty due to Improved Multiattack and Armor Spikes for iteratives. On a charge, the base to-hit is 14(=7(bab)+4(strength)+2(charge)+1(Juggernaut)).
    Making a dive attack (which functions as a charge except with movement restrictions), the damage is:
    2x claw 42 = (3.5(base)+2.5(spike stones)+8(Str x2 Power Lunge)+7(Power attack)) x2 (Dive Attack With Piercing Weapon)
    Goring Horn 53 = (4.5(base)+2.5(spike stones)+4.5(Powerful Charge)+8(Str x2 Power Lunge)+7(Power Attack)) x2 (Dive Attack with piercing weapon)
    Armor Spikes 23 = (3.5(base)+8(Str x2 Power Lunge))x2(Dive Attack with Piercing Weapon)

    The average damage vs. AC 20 (average at CR8) for a Dive Attack is 131.5 which grows to 197 if Whirling Frenzy is in use.

    On the immunities side, we have immunity to: Damage (except Acid or Fire), Critical Hits, Mind-Affecting, poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, and energy drain.

    Kelb's nonmagical devices could obviously be complimentary.

  26. - Top - End - #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    If you are taking Karsite for the spell resistance, you might consider the Lesser Bariaur (Planar Handbook) instead as it's LA+1.
    SR, weapon proficiencies, the human bonus feat and skill points, and a solid in-character justification for saying "F magic, I don't need it." Mostly the bonus feat though.

    Doesn't lesser bariaur have racial HD?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    [...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
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    Default Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    SR, weapon proficiencies, the human bonus feat and skill points, and a solid in-character justification for saying "F magic, I don't need it." Mostly the bonus feat though.

    Doesn't lesser bariaur have racial HD?
    Nope. It's a pretty good LA+1: Outsider, SR 11+class level, Str+2/Cha-2, Quadruped, Medium, move 40', Darkvision 60', quadruped, Listen/Spot+2, Will saves+2 vs. Spells/Spell-likes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Nope. It's a pretty good LA+1: Outsider, SR 11+class level, Str+2/Cha-2, Quadruped, Medium, move 40', Darkvision 60', quadruped, Listen/Spot+2, Will saves+2 vs. Spells/Spell-likes.
    That does look solid. Still couldn't have done what I wanted with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
    [...] bringing Kelb in on your side in a rules fight is like bringing Mike Tyson in on your side to fight a toddler. You can, but it's such massive overkill.
    A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lans View Post
    A lance doesn't double damage unless you are mounted? You could potentially take advantage of heedless charge or power lunge on some of these builds.

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