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Thread: Class/Build Comparison Thread
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2018-05-21, 09:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
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Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread
I spent a little bit of time looking into expected damage vs. AC 20 (average for CR 8). There are 3 builds so far that seem significant. I'm ignoring critical hits and rolls of 1 for simplicity.
Double Fleshrakers has an expected damage of 118. This is slightly awkward because you must never be more than 30' apart, but an advantage is that it basically applies to every full attack.
Immunity Charger has an expected damage of 186 on a Whirling Frenzy charge and 131 on a charge.
I'm unclear on the damage output of the Fleshraker mount. This one makes my head hurt. If a mount charges does the mounter count as charging? If so, this is extremely potent. Reading through Mounted Combat, it saysOriginally Posted by Mounted Combat
I don't understand the Sword/Shield build well enough to evaluate. For example, how is the rogue getting divine favor cast on them? And where is the +4 weapon coming from?Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2018-05-21, 10:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread
I'm clearly not finished with those characters (sorry!), but I was trying to demonstrate my oft-stated stance that Rogue is the best buff platform in the game.
Divine Favor comes from the Cleric via the Ring of Spell Storing. Cleric casts Divine Favor into the Ring, Rogue uses Ring, gets Divine Favor. Greater Magic Weapon is the source of the enchantment on the Rogue's blades.
Against AC 20, the Rogue should hit 100%/100%/75%/50%(IIRC), for (again, IIRC)(1d3+7+5d6+8)*3.25 = (2+7+17+8)*3.25 = 34*3.25 = 102+9 = 111 expected damage.
Nowhere near the top of the charts, especially since you have to cut it in half - it's effectively 55 damage per character. Assuming I've done my math right.
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2018-05-22, 02:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2018
Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread
I find Rogues as the best buff platform a little sketchy, given that they have a class that's a straight upgrade from it - the Rogue really only has Sneak Attack going for it, while the Factotum has better skills due to Int synergy, more class skills (you can't really beat "everything"), ability to delegate just about everything to Intelligence and still gets trapfinding. Heck, Cunning Brilliance allows the Factotum to steal Rogue class features!
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2018-05-22, 03:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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- Berlin
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Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread
@Quertus:
I donīt see a need for DMM:P at lower levels. Combat Reflexes, SF:C and Augmented Summoning while using a reach weapon (longspear) will prove to be more practical when it comes to economy of actions and a celestial wolf as a third flanking buddy will help trigger more AoOs, including SA.
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2018-05-22, 08:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread
Thanks! As you can probably tell, I don't usually play muggles.
I think, if I tried to optimize a single Rogue, I'd aim for PaO cheese, for truly ridiculous numbers of attacks. Can you imagine the Hydra that can sneak up on you, and gets SA damage with each head? I think most players would start throwing things at their GM if they encountered that beast in the wild.
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2018-05-22, 09:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2018
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2018-05-22, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2017
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- Virgo Supercluster
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2018-05-22, 02:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
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- Frozen City
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Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread
I was curious how many of the builds used a gimmick of some sort so I compiled a few of them.
Spoiler
Rogue 8
25 Point Buy
Reach, Low Armor Class, Low Hit Points, Low Saves
Gimmick: Sneak Attack
WARNINGS:
Extend Reach - Humans don't qualify
Flaws
Trait
Forgotten Realms Only
Druid 8
32 Point Buy
Darkvision 60 feet, Low-light Vision
Low Armor Class
Variant Race
Gimmick: Summoner, Spellcaster
Gimmick: Charge - Animal Companion
WARNING:
Forgotten Realms Only
Barbarian 2 Fighter 6
25 Point Buy
Multiclass Character
Limited Ability: Rage
Rage Variant - Whirling Frenzy
Gimmick: Mounted
Gimmick: Charger
WARNING:
Homebrew items
Fighter 8
25 Point Buy
Darkvision 30 feet, Low-light Vision
High Armor Class, Low Speed, Damage Reduction
Troll
30 Point Buy
Darkvision 60 feet, Low-light Vision
Low Armor Class, Low Will Save, Low Hit Points, Regeneration
WARNINGS:
Level 11
Homebrew Items
Illegal Starting Strength: 20
Druid 8
32 Point Buy
High Initiative
Gimmick: Spellcaster
Gimmick: Charger
Gimmick: Charger - Animal Companion
WARNINGS:
Flaws
Forgotten Realms Only
Wizard 8
32 Point Buy
Darkvision 60 Feet, Low-light Vision
Low Armor Class, Low Hit Points, Low Attack Bonus
Gimmick: Spellcaster, Summoner
Is actually two characters
Is actually two characters
Gimmick: Is actually two characters
Gimmick: Sneak Attack
Gimmick: Spellcaster
WARNINGS
Singular items are worth more than 50% of character wealth
Dungeon Master unlikely to accept two characters as singular character
Forgotten Realms Only
Frankenclass
Darkvision 60 Feet
Non-lethal damage
Gimmick: Charger
Gimmick: Undead
Limited Ability: Rage
Rage Variant:Whirling Frenzy
WARNINGS:
Forgotten Realms Only
Snow Tiger Berserker only uses light weapons, build uses one-handed weapons
Flaws
Only deals non-lethal damage, not immune to damage
Weapon Specialization without prerequisites
"Movement speed is the most important statistic in this game."
"Give them no mercy for they give no mercy to us."
"I see one of those I kill it!"
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2018-05-22, 03:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
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Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread
There is an ambiguity here, but the theory that Shake It Off only applies to damage dealt seems highly suspect. To get there, you need to believe that class designers intentionally included an option which removes the option of dealing lethal damage and reduces the durations of stuns dealt by the pugilist. It seems more plausible that instead Shake It Off applies to damage received where the conversion to nonlethal and the reduction in stun durations are clear advantages rather than clear nerfs. This also seems more consistent with the name.
This was just a typo: It's Exotic Weapon Proficiency (fixed, thanks).Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2018-05-22, 03:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2016
- Location
- No Longer The Frostfell
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2018-05-22, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
- Gender
Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread
Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2018-05-22, 04:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
- Gender
Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2018-05-22, 05:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread
No, I used Savage Species progression, he's only level 8 - thus the missing HD, regeneration only being 1 HP/round, etc.
I'm not even sure where you gotthose other two"homebrew items" from (unless you're confusing paying for spell casting services as a custom item...)
EDIT: I have no idea how I calculated Yiiksuv's strength stat. Apparently, I can't math.
EDIT II: I may have used the troll I found online with a much higher strength stat. Or I may have used the original character - who was a half-Dragon troll - as a baseline.Last edited by Quertus; 2018-05-22 at 08:13 PM.
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2018-05-22, 06:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2014
Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread
It may be worth swapping the rows and columns in your table, AnimeTheCat. Due to the way tables are set up, it's hard to add columns, but easy to add rows. Also, in Western writing, rows can just keep going, whereas columns stop fitting on your page/screen at some point.
Spoiler: Collectible nice thingsMy incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
My Ruby Knight Vindicator barsader. A party-buffing melee build (ECL 14).
Doctor Despair's and my all-natural approach to necromancy.
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2018-05-22, 07:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2016
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- No Longer The Frostfell
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2018-05-22, 07:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread
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2018-05-22, 11:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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- Michigan
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2018-05-23, 03:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
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- Berlin
- Gender
Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread
Hm, how to explain it? When it comes to "muggles", itīs not really helpful to look at things in isolation, you've got to look for synergies and viable combat tactics instead. Unlike working with spells and looking what you have and combo with, you must basically anticipate what could be there and come up with stuff that could easily combo under different circumstances.
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2018-05-23, 12:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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- Michigan
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Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread
I'm making a warforged wizard/spellsword with adamantine body https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1592795
I was thinking about going focused specialist, combat brute, shocktrooper, and arcane strike, but those feats come online at level 9 without shenanigens. I might take still spell.Last edited by Lans; 2018-05-23 at 12:07 PM.
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2018-05-23, 01:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2016
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- No Longer The Frostfell
Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread
I made some formatting changes to the table in the OP. Let me know if there are any suggestions or changes. Making builds as rows is way more efficient to add to it for sure. Length is difficult with so many columns, so what can I remove or shorten to make it fit a little nicer?
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2018-05-23, 08:26 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread
I've decided to open with an example of the idea of a non-magical character taken to its extreme. 25PB (though I honestly prefer 32)
Race: Karsite
Class(s): Human Paragon 2/ Forsaker 4/ Warblade 1 (warblade level at 5, 1 point of LA bought off at 6)
Strength 16 Intelligence 14 Fortitude Save 10 Armor Class 20 HP 56 Dexterity 16 Wisdom 10 Reflex Save 8 Touch Armor Class 13 Initiative 3 Constitution 14 Charisma 12 Will Save 9 Flat-Footed Armor Class 17 Speed 40ft (reduced to 30 by medium load)
Spoiler: AttacksAttack Longsword +10 1D8+3 19-20 X2 5ft Attack Guisarme +9 2d4+4 X2 10ft Attack Net +5 Entangle - 10ft Full Attack Longsword +10/ +5 1d8+3 19-20 X2 5ft
Spoiler: Equipment/ItemsEquipment/Item Cost WBL Start (i.e. 27,000 at Lvl 8) Weapons 344gp Mithral Chain +MWK Dastana 425gp Standard Adv Gear* 39.8gp Gnome Artificer Device 1** 11,400gp Gnome Artificer Device 2** 9,000 Magebred L. Warhorse w/ Barding 700gp Healing Salve X4 4gp Jug of Shapesand 100gp Explosive Packs X3
(1 Round Fuse)600gp Alchemical Sleep X5 150gp Ghostoil 250gp Chaos Flask X5 500gp Trollbane X2 180gp Fast Leg Fiendish Graft 4,000gp
Spoiler: SkillsSkill Score Ranks Ability Modifier Miscilaneous Modifiers Climb +8 0 +3 +5 Jump +18 10 +3 +5 Know (Arch & Eng) +12 10 +2 - Listen +10 10 0 - Sense Motive +10 10 0 - Tumble +13 10 +3 - Use Rope (CC) +4 1 +3 -
Spoiler: Maneuvers KnownManeuver Level Maneuver Name Discipline War 2 Disarming Strike Iron Heart War 1 Sudden Leap Tiger Claw War 2 Mountain Hammer Stone Dragon War 1 Punsihing Stance Iron Heart (stance)
Feats: Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Combat Expertise, Combat Intuition
Class Features: Adaptive learning [Know (Arch & Eng)], Forsake Magic, Tough Defense (con to AC), Magic Destruction, Natural Weapons, Fast Healing 1 (20 points/ day), Inherent Bonuses to Str and Dex (+2 each), Battle Clarity (int to ref unless FF), Weapon Aptitude, SR 31 (17 racial +14 class; explicitly stacks)
*Standard Adventuring gear is a backpack, bedroll, 4 belt pouches, waterskin, mess kit, crowbar, collapsible grappling hook w/ silk rope, and bullseye lantern w/ oil.
**Gnome Artificer Devices (Magic of Faerun page 23 & 24) are completely non-magical and not restricted in their use to gnome artificers. Price doubled from cost to create per ordinary magic items.
Device 1 on shoulders and arms: Bull's strength (20 charges), spider climb (20 charges), launch item (30 charges), and battering ram (10 charges)
Device 2 on waist and feet: Cat's Grace (20 charges), Expeditious Retreat (20 charges), and Grease at CL 5 (10 charges)
And here's a link to the char sheet: Asta The Black Clover.
Please forgive the blatant ripping off of the name. I'm terrible with names.
I'll come back with a more normal fighter next.I am not seaweed. That's a B.
Praise I've received A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign
Avatar by Tiffanie Lirle
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2018-05-24, 03:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
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Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread
The degree to which this build looks super similar to the fleshraker animal companion on my build is a bit shocking. Not sure exactly what your in-combat plan is but a cursory examination implies that I'd probably go with the fleshraker in any sort of bare bones face to face combat scenario. And, to be clear, while you have totally eschewed anything even marginally magical, the fleshraker kinda has too, at least on that character sheet.
Last edited by eggynack; 2018-05-24 at 03:28 AM.
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2018-05-24, 04:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread
First step is using one of the BFC options or debuffs he's got to weaken the enemy's numbers and/or limit its mobility. Second step is to buff with the appropriate device(s). Final step is to stab it to death
There's no denying this is pretty close to the upper bound for a non-magical character that's not eschewing magic just for the sake of doing it though. Might make it as far as 13~ish if pushed with everything I've got but certainly not any further. Without the forsaker levels to justify their expense, Lantan Artificer Devices just aren't worth it and forsaker is nigh-worthless without them, symionts, and grafts. For sure, the clothes make the man here.
Oh, and the irony of being completely non-magical leading to an evil character is not lost on me.I am not seaweed. That's a B.
Praise I've received A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign
Avatar by Tiffanie Lirle
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2018-05-24, 06:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
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Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread
Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2018-05-24, 07:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
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Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread
Since my first attempt melted down on the Pugilist Errata, here's Immunity Charger II.
The basic build is Dragonborn[wings] Warforged Bear Totem Barbarian with Whirling Frenzy 1/Fighter 4/Warforged Juggernaut 3 with stats: (24 point buy)
Str 18(=16+2(levels)), Dex 15(=13-2(Dragonborn)), Con 12(=8+2(Dragonborn)+2(Warforged)), Int 14, Wis 6, Cha 6
Spoiler: feats
Flaw 1: Multiattack
Flaw 2: Adamantine Body
Bear Totem Barbarian 1: Toughness
Level 1: Troll-Blooded
Fighter 1: Snowtiger Berserker
Fighter 2: Power Attack
Level 3: Improved Multiattack
Fighter 4: Power Lunge
Goring Horn: Improved Bull Rush
Level 6: Shocktrooper
Juggernaut 1: Powerful Charge
Spoiler: items
Spike Stones 4K (Maug graft that increases natural weapon damage by 1d4)
2x Rending Claw 10K (Illithid graft for 1d6 claw attack)
Goring Horn 8K (Illithid graft for 1d8 gore attack + improved bull rush)
Masterwork composite[+4] longbow .8K
A variety of arrows
~4K gp to spend
The attack routine takes advantage of 3 natural weapons with no penalty due to Improved Multiattack and Armor Spikes for iteratives. On a charge, the base to-hit is 14(=7(bab)+4(strength)+2(charge)+1(Juggernaut)).
Making a dive attack (which functions as a charge except with movement restrictions), the damage is:
2x claw 42 = (3.5(base)+2.5(spike stones)+8(Str x2 Power Lunge)+7(Power attack)) x2 (Dive Attack With Piercing Weapon)
Goring Horn 53 = (4.5(base)+2.5(spike stones)+4.5(Powerful Charge)+8(Str x2 Power Lunge)+7(Power Attack)) x2 (Dive Attack with piercing weapon)
Armor Spikes 23 = (3.5(base)+8(Str x2 Power Lunge))x2(Dive Attack with Piercing Weapon)
The average damage vs. AC 20 (average at CR8) for a Dive Attack is 131.5 which grows to 197 if Whirling Frenzy is in use.
On the immunities side, we have immunity to: Damage (except Acid or Fire), Critical Hits, Mind-Affecting, poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, and energy drain.
Kelb's nonmagical devices could obviously be complimentary.Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2018-05-24, 04:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread
I am not seaweed. That's a B.
Praise I've received A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign
Avatar by Tiffanie Lirle
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2018-05-24, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2011
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Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread
Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic
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2018-05-24, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread
I am not seaweed. That's a B.
Praise I've received A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign
Avatar by Tiffanie Lirle
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2018-05-25, 12:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
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- Michigan
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Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread
I made a bunch of orc chargers
Warblade https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1594806 Warblades don't really add much damage outside of charging
Barbarian https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1594775
Fighter https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1594763
Soulborn https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1594805
Warrior https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=965250
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2018-05-26, 06:05 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
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Re: Class/Build Comparison Thread
Build help: Piercing Immunities | Skillfull full casters | Uptier base classes | Top 10 spells/level
PO: Core Fighter 20 > Pit Fiend | Whale Wrestler | Minimal Mailman | Wizard 1 > Fighter 1 | Team Mundane
TO: ExFighter | Eliminate spell defenses | All spells in no time | Planar Soldiers of Mystra | Best Nuke | Warmage vs. Favored Soul | Death Cults | E6 Circle Magic