Balancing Casters by Buffing Martials

[gkathellar]

I may also be using wizard and fighter as bywords for caster and mundane at times, fwiw. Bad habit.

That said, lemme see if I can simplify: try writing a T1 or even T2 class without giving it a spell list at least comparable to the druid's. It's, uh ... you're gonna need a lot of ink.

[radthemad4]

Making martials that are good at combat without a lot of optimization has been proven to be doable, e.g. Dungeonomicon Monk, Races of War, Path of War but even those can't really contribute much outside combat. How about creating a bunch of quasi gestalt 'tracks' with mostly non-combat abilities in them that people who aren't casters get for free? e.g.

Healer
You gain all the class features of the Healer class at the levels they normally get them. You don't need the required ability scores to cast spells from the Healer list, and your DCs (are there any?) are always 15+1/2HD or something?

They could be written so that 'Otherwise useless outside combat martial' + a few tracks has comparable utility to Wizards, CoDzilla and domain shuffling Beguilers.

[Ignimortis]

I think you're conflating (or perhaps confusing) "martial" with "mundane". "Martial" is just a way of fighting. Gishes are martial. DMM Clerics are martial. Those characters have magic, but they're still quite clearly martial in many respects. None of the suggested changes give martials enough magical juice to fight like a BFC Wizard, but they do give them the non-combat tools they need -- and those tools have to be spells, because that's what they're written up as.

That's what the guys over at the Den say too. But the issue is twofold.

First, the only thing good enough to rival spells is...more spells. There's no other system (maybe psionics if you use StP) that has this much power baked into it.

Second, somehow magic gets a free pass to do whatever is written on the spell. There is no other system that would just expend a resource and produce an effect. Spells are both the most complicated system due to breadth and the least complicated one due to almost always working by saying "I cast X".
You can't say "I jump a thousand miles over that mountain range" because there's no ability for that, but there's teleport which does the exact same thing or better, because you can take friends.

This is what the underlying problem is - that magic is allowed to be all-powerful and scales quadratically in usefulness and power, and everything else isn't and instead scales linearly if at all.

Therefore, I would prefer nerfing the casters simultaneously with improving martials, because omnipotence, even theoretical, is usually undesirable in a game system. If that's how you get your kicks, I don't mind, but I much prefer fixed list casters and T2 sorcerer-like small list casters to the big three. I even buff them somewhat, not in terms of breadth of arsenal, but by removing any advantage a wizard would have over them besides his versatility and adaptability. Free metamagic? Gone, given to sorcerer (casting times patched too). Cleric's proficiency with arms and armor, Divine Favor, DMM stacking? All gone, Cloistered Cleric (which is still very good) is the default. Druid loses animal companion and most wildshapes outside of MM1, because they either don't exist or nobody has seen then in ages. Meanwhile, Fighters are buffed...and are still either a free gestalt for certain things or an NPC class. You can't have all the cosmic power in your hands and still get to do the other person's specific job better than they would.

P.S. I do not consider gishes to be 100% martial. The term implies not using spells - magic is fine, supernatural abilities are probably fine, even spell-likes get a pass, but if you're getting a caster/manifester level, then you're not exactly martial anymore.

[Goaty14]

tl;dr Sure buff the fighter, but nerfing the wizard is non-optional if you want narrative balance.

Then we can come to an agreement that you don't need a dramatic nerf to full casters, instead a moderate nerf to full casters, and a moderate buff to everybody else?

[Lans]

This is true, but the real answer on that score is that HD should equal CR.

That sounds reasonable, but is more of a system overhaul than I would want to do. I think making it CR and maybe lowering the CR that it can obtained to what the level that the spell should be obtained at -2 or something along those lines.

I don't know that doing that is really more normal, and it's certainly more genre breaking. I think getting magic powers -- and in particular magical weapons -- is very much on theme for high level martial characters in a fantasy setting.

Yeah, your reference to Thor and King Author lead me to interpret it as more of a 'chosen ones' weapon, but I realized that wasn't the case after I posted.

Having unlocks off of skill ranks is something I like. Generally, I think those should probably be things like flight, rather than upgrades to existing functionality.

I think flight would be more balance, or maybe a combo between balance, climb and jump. I was also thinking of things like being able to travel between the planes with knowledge planes.

[skunk3]

I don't want to see anything get nerfed.

I don't have a huge problem with the so-called 'imbalance' within 3.5. Everything works the way it does for a reason, more or less. Sure, I think that certain martial classes could be buffed a bit in terms of getting more skill points and a wider array of class skills, but I wouldn't want to see a drastic overhaul. We all know that casters are going to outshine non-casters and I don't have a problem with it because everyone has to play their part. With Tome of Battle and some pretty decent homebrew classes / PrC's out there mundanes can be formidable... they just need a little extra nudge, or do they?

[Bucky]

You could always allow temporary flight with a high Jump check. This is a video-gamey mechanic, with characters jumping and doing midair horizontal dashes.

[Florian]

Personally, I´d rather shift the stance what magic is a bit. Personally, I´d rather split the one category "spell" down into three categories of "spell", "class spell" and "ritual".

To explain that a bit, I see a huge difference in how game-breaking spells can be. No-one talks about the humble fireball, what we talk about is planar binding, while similarly, no-one really talks about meteor swarm, we talk about wish.

So, I´ve nothing against moving the real game-breakers into the "ritual" category, available for all classes (and be extension, completely removable when that style doesn't fit a particular group). That makes it a choice whether to learn and potentially use a ritual or not. Overall, that's very simple and can basically be done even now with 3.5E/PF without too much hassle.

Ok, why "class spells" and not maneuvers? The PF Paladin has some very good examples with the "Litany" line of spells, that directly tie in to the class features of the Paladin. Using a litany is vastly more enjoyable then going for some of the generic divine spells, like Divine Favor, while still being part of the overall resource management that is the basis of slot-based magic.

[ericgrau]

I like the idea of buffing non-casters.

However, the example of Thor, especially the part where he hurls lighting, really looks like a caster.

If the solution is to make everyone a caster -- well, that works, and it would be fine with me personally. But I suspect some people will object.

I think that's what magic items are for. Everyone already gets magic and the system practically requires it. If you don't want any magic on your mundanes, then you're playing the wrong rpg.

For most casual games I don't think it's a big deal, unlike forum TO. But if you want to nudge things towards non-casters you could always give them a little more WBL. A simple way to WBL tax casters (if you don't want to give them the same boost) would be to make them require expensive gear to cast spells. Not to give them extra spells if they have extra gear, just require x gp to function normally and more than x gp doesn't do anything more. I wouldn't go extreme with the tax; if your problem is that big then maybe your optimization needs to be more casual instead. Again it's just a nudge. Most gaming tables that don't heavily browse forums work well enough as-is.

[lord_khaine]

I think that's what magic items are for. Everyone already gets magic and the system practically requires it. If you don't want any magic on your mundanes, then you're playing the wrong rpg.

I guess this is the age-old cliche about people wanting to play as Conan the barbarian.

[gkathellar]

Then we can come to an agreement that you don't need a dramatic nerf to full casters, instead a moderate nerf to full casters, and a moderate buff to everybody else?

Yeah, definitely.

If you can say, "fighters are good at A and passable at B and C, rogues are good at B and passable at A and D, Wizards are good at C and D, clerics are good at D and passable at C and B, and bards are passable at A and B and C and D," that's probably pretty good. It's just that if wizards and clerics are good at A, B, C, D, and E, then there's a problem.

FWIW, there's a 3pp developer I know who's pretty adamant about the notion that 6-casters are great design almost by accident. I believe she feels they hit a sweet spot, as it were.

[Karl Aegis]

I may also be using wizard and fighter as bywords for caster and mundane at times, fwiw. Bad habit.

That said, lemme see if I can simplify: try writing a T1 or even T2 class without giving it a spell list at least comparable to the druid's. It's, uh ... you're gonna need a lot of ink.

This class can deal 100 damage per class level to everything, excluding themselves, within 1 mile per class level. A Reflex Save is allowed for half damage.


T2 class.

[Remuko]

This class can deal 100 damage per class level to everything, excluding themselves, within 1 mile per class level. A Reflex Save is allowed for half damage.


T2 class.

there is no way thats tier 2. too narrowly focused. it only does damage.

[ryu]

there is no way thats tier 2. too narrowly focused. it only does damage.

To be fair, tier 2 doesn't much care about multiple tricks. It only cares about you having at least one trick that would obviously bend a standard game over your knee. That technically has that especially i it bypasses resistances and can be done often.

The post stating the challenge should've limited it to tier 1 because their whole definition is having all the tricks. Not just one.

[JoshuaZ]

What's much harder to solve for is approximate narrative contribution. A fighter can organize the peasants to build a wall, but the wizard can summon monsters to do it, or use telekinesis, or teleport in an army of stonemasons, or uh ... cast wall of stone. So now we give the fighter the power to stamp his foot and pull a wall out of the ground, earthbender style, right? Okay now the party needs to adventure underwater - the wizard casts water breathing on everyone, or the fighter can, uh ... give everyone preemptive CPR and then hold his breath? Oops, the party rogue got cursed, so either the wizard can cast break enchantment, or the fighter can ... use his curse enchantment-breaking punch, I guess. Gotta read minds? The fighter uses Body Language Discerning Mantra, which looks suspiciously like detect thoughts. I can keep going, but I think I've made my point: at a certain point, your fighter is a wizard with the word "fighter" tattooed on his forehead.

Some of these are easier to fluff than others. For example, if Sherlock Holmes notices really subtle aspects of body language, we're all ok with that being mundane. In The Avengers when Black Widow clears Hawkeye's mind by slamming his head really hard against a metal bar. If we had one character do both of those, it wouldn't seem that bad. I agree though that some of the other examples are very hard to fluff, and if one is able to do pretty much all of them, it doesn't meet what people think of as a fighter. Part of the issue is that people want to play someone like John McClane who is really badass but not supernaturally seeming badass. They want to play a character who could plausibly exist in our world even if it was extreme. By nature, such a character isn't going to be do every single thing a magical person can because at the end of the day, wizards do magical things.

[Goaty14]

This class can deal 100 damage per class level to everything, excluding themselves, within 1 mile per class level. A Reflex Save is allowed for half damage.


T2 class.

The DFA and/or Dragon Shaman (depending on your reading of metabreath) does exactly this, and isn't T2

Checkmate.

[ryu]

The DFA and/or Dragon Shaman (depending on your reading of metabreath) does exactly this, and isn't T2

Checkmate.

Possibly due to the shakiness of the wording uncheck.

[Cosi]

In my opinion the wizard shouldn't be omnipotent at all as that kinda defeats the purpose of having a party consisting of a wizard, fighter, rogue and cleric if the wizard can do the jobs of everyone else just as well or even better. A way of doing that without directly nerfing the wizard is by making it easier for other classes to counter the wizard's spells, as per my suggestion. Nifft's suggestions could be viable as well.

The Wizard isn't omnipotent. It can't do the job of the Cleric, or the Beguiler, or the Druid. It can do the job of (depending on optimization level, either most or all) non-casters, but that's what I'm suggesting we fix. The balance point for classes should be the Wizard v. the Cleric. Both have options that are applicable in (almost) every situation, both have situations where they would rely on the other.

How about creating a bunch of quasi gestalt 'tracks' with mostly non-combat abilities in them that people who aren't casters get for free? e.g.

This idea is good, but I don't like the example you've picked. The Healer is a bad choice for a non-combat track, at least on its own. Healing is, while necessary, fundamentally reactive. It would make martials more powerful, but it wouldn't address their inability to advance the plot. I could see tracks like "Planar Power" or "Nature Power" working.

First, the only thing good enough to rival spells is...more spells. There's no other system (maybe psionics if you use StP) that has this much power baked into it.

Sure. But that's not fundamental. And since the only things on par with spells right now are spells, your choices are "Fighters suck", "nerf Wizards", "give Fighters spells", or "write a new subsystem as large as the largest existing subsystem". It's possible that the last is the most desirable solution, but it is also by far the most effort-intensive solution. Giving Fighters spells which mostly work outside combat (and as such don't modify the part of the game where they already have an identity) is the best solution in terms of bang-for-buck.

P.S. I do not consider gishes to be 100% martial. The term implies not using spells - magic is fine, supernatural abilities are probably fine, even spell-likes get a pass, but if you're getting a caster/manifester level, then you're not exactly martial anymore.

That's where I disagree. Mundane implies not using spells/magic. Just as you can be a buffer who doesn't use spells to buff people (e.g. a DFI Bardblade), and you can be a buffer who does use spells to buff people (e.g. a War Weaver), you can be a martial who fights without spells (e.g. a Barbarian), and you can be a martial who fights with spells (e.g. a Duskblade).

there is no way thats tier 2. too narrowly focused. it only does damage.

I don't care if something is Tier One or Tier Four or whatever. The tiers are barely functional as a system for describing the existing classes in 3e, and the focus on entirely the wrong things if your goal is to fix the system. Ideally, you would match whatever tier you think means "everyone has abilities that are useful in each situation, different people have abilities that are decisive in different situations", and practically you would combine some traits of Tier Three (variety of resource management options) with some traits of Tier One (characters have a wide variety of abilities, characters have abilities that are powerful both in and out of combat). You wouldn't try to make characters "Tier Two", because as the suggested class demonstrates, that is a garbage design guideline. "AoE nuke powerful enough to end any encounter, no other abilities" might be Tier Two, but it is an obviously garbage design, and the fact that the tiers output that as an appropriate design means they are a garbage standard.

[Peat]

You don't need to make Martials as potentially good as Wizards for them to be balanced, as witnessed by the fact there' not many threads asking "How do we balance Partial Casters vs Wizards". We all know the Bard doesn't have the same potential, but it has enough that it's not a big deal.

I'd therefore suggest allowing Martials to hit the T3-ish area if they want is sufficient for balance.

Making Martials better skillmonkies gets you some of the way. You don't even have to give them all 8 skill points either. Handing out a class feature allowing them to pick from a small list of skills that involves some good utility ones and then just use their class level for skill level (or BAB) would be helpful and help retain flavour.

Alternately, you could give the Martials the chance to take a good utility spell as a spell-like ability, representing prowess so superhuman it becomes supernatural.

In combat, arguably you want to condense some of the feat chains that allow for combat styles other than "I roll to hit, I roll to damage".

Finally, I think including a free scaling magic weapon (or armour, or amulet of mighty fists, or whatever) in class would be useful for granting more utility, as then they can use their WBL for a bunch of things.

[martixy]

Over the years of homebrewing I have arrived at a certain design philosophy about the game.

Which can be boiled down to the following single sentence:
What makes the game fun is being able to make meaningful and cool decisions in as many situations as possible.

That is the problem with mundanes - they lack tools which can be applied to many situations. Even if we restrict the discussion to combat, many times their only option is "I go there and hit it with a stick" with minor variances on how you go there and what stick you hit it with.

One problem that contributes to this issue is the significant power imbalance, but I wanna specifically make the point that balance is overrated. You see, I'm all for buffing the mundanes. But it is not necessary to make them the equal of caster. The current problem is that they have to spend all of their character building resources to stay competitive with casters - only in their specific niche, while the casters can serve tons of roles. Viewed this way, the most immediate fix becomes apparent: Allow mundanes the ability to compete in their niche as a baseline. Then they can spend their available character building resources to diversify their contribution to the game, rather than just fight to contribute at all!

The mechanical details of this include alleviating feat taxes, addressing MAD issues, increasing skill points, merging skills(e.g. use PFs skill system), and other basic mechanical tweaks, around the action economy, combat options, skill use and the like.

[BassoonHero]

My own personal starting point shortlist is more or less:

1. Nerf the magical "I win" buttons.

- Fix/ban some of the obvious stuff.
- Make battlefield control easier to resist.
- Generally lower the power of mind-control effects.
- Rewrite spells like Freedom of Movement to do something sane.
- Write less unwieldy rules for ability damage.

2. Remove unnecessary restrictions on martial characters.

- Let everyone move and full-attack.
- Reduce or eliminate iterative attack penalties.
- Remove "taxes" like Precise Shot, Brutal Throw, etc.
- Significantly beef up combat feats and abilities.
- Add a robust parrying mechanic.

3. Fix the skill system.

- Consolidate and harmonize skills.
- Fix extraordinary senses.
- Add a skill trick system with level-appropriate payoffs (blindsight, jumping a hundred feet straight up, charging through stone walls like the Kool-aid man, etc).

Honestly, just bumping the mundanes up to tier 3 would probably be enough for me. There's no need to fix the entire system at once.

[Goaty14]

Possibly due to the shakiness of the wording uncheck.

DFA?... Maybe. But the Dragon Shaman 100% has a breath weapon with a recharge, which qualifies.

Spoiler: Your move.

Show

Even if we restrict the discussion to combat, many times their only option is "I go there and hit it with a stick" with minor variances on how you go there and what stick you hit it with.

My character never leaves home without his vials of acid, vials of alchemist fire, holy water, heavy crossbow, greatbow, 10 foot pole, glaive, stick, thunderstone, sling, dagger, throwing hammers, and wand of magic missile, but somehow you just expect him to hit it with his stick?

[ColorBlindNinja]

The DFA and/or Dragon Shaman (depending on your reading of metabreath) does exactly this, and isn't T2

Checkmate.

I do believe that the Metabreath feat in question states that it does not stack.

[death390]

Alright, I will share a few of my "easy fix" ideas, that would be quick means to moving forward.

1. All casters get 2 skill points per level+ int. All non-casters get access to ALL skills, 6 skill points per level, and have individual features per class which max out 2 or 3 skills automatically, without use of skill points; And every level provides another rank in said skills.

Example. Rogue gets automatic maxed out slots in Hide,Move silently, and slight of hand.
Fighter gets maxed out ride, swim, Jump. Scout gets Spot,Listen,Survival.

The point is that spell casting takes up so much learning that regular skills aren't paid attention to, but the non-spellcasting classes earn their bread and butter by them.

2.All non-spellcasting classes get TOB Maneuvers, but only have choice between two schools. Advance as warblade.

3.Armor provides DR=to AC.

4.Artificer's Item Creation Class feature is now a feat. Requires 4 ranks in craft, 4 ranks in spell craft, and 4 ranks in Use Magic device.

WALLAH.
Ideally I would build the game from ground up, but We ain't got that long a character limit.

I have a particular issue with #1, reducing skill points for characters is never the way to go as others have stated buffs are simply the better thing to do. for example if you reduce ALL casters to 2+int then the beguiler which relies on skills gets neutered horribly, the bard as well, and so on. a better thing to do would be give the mundane classes more skill points and do like pathfinder and make skill ranks 1:1. this still limits cross class skills to 1/2 ranks but makes skill points more useful since they aren't being "lost" on cross class. not to mention all characters should have some split of spot/search/listen. fighters should have all 3 as they are the "watchmen/ guard" class. barbarians should have spot/listen, rangers all 3, ect ect. giving all of the mundane classes spellcraft and decipher script as class skills is weird.

#2 is decent way to go about it but many people don't want to use ToB stuff because its "like magic". i would recommend something like a techniques list similar to trip/ sunder/ disarm are. i'll put those below.

#3 is a variant rule in Unearthed Arcana

#4 makes no sense in any theme i have ever heard of. instead just removing the caster pre-req should be fine, and only requiring 1 scroll to make a enchantment should balance it. similar to the crafting of Aegis Fang in the Drizzt Forgotten Realms series.

My own personal starting point shortlist is more or less:

1. Nerf the magical "I win" buttons.

- Fix/ban some of the obvious stuff.
- Make battlefield control easier to resist.
- Generally lower the power of mind-control effects.
- Rewrite spells like Freedom of Movement to do something sane.
- Write less unwieldy rules for ability damage.

2. Remove unnecessary restrictions on martial characters.

- Let everyone move and full-attack.
- Reduce or eliminate iterative attack penalties.
- Remove "taxes" like Precise Shot, Brutal Throw, etc.
- Significantly beef up combat feats and abilities.
- Add a robust parrying mechanic.

3. Fix the skill system.

- Consolidate and harmonize skills.
- Fix extraordinary senses.
- Add a skill trick system with level-appropriate payoffs (blindsight, jumping a hundred feet straight up, charging through stone walls like the Kool-aid man, etc).

Honestly, just bumping the mundanes up to tier 3 would probably be enough for me. There's no need to fix the entire system at once.

i see a lot of good and bad in here, my opinions are:
#1:fix/ban i agree with, Battlefield control is already negated easily by smart GM/ Monsters so it doesn't need a nerf, Mind-Control is always a problem even if limited lower due to the fact that you are taking out a PC for awhile it would need to be neutered to unusable territory to "fix", rewrite is in the fix/ban section and freedom of movement doesn't need to be fixed in my opinion, i didn't know ability damage was unwieldy?

#2 i would disagree with move/full attack since it is a full action, HOWEVER i would agree with allowing 1/2 # attacks (including TwF/flurry/ect) as a standard action; feat taxes are a problem due to the fighter in the first place, i would suggest just folding in the feats that are taxes with other feats; for example PBS is not precise shot but has PBS folded into it, dodge/mobility are a single feat, remove spring attack from whirlwind attack, collapse TWF tree to about 3-4 feats instead of the 12 it seems to have, maybe add a few new feats to make new techniques see below.

Things like weapon focus/ specialization make sense to beef up they aren't worth a feat in the first place (BaB scaling maybe?), but others like leap attack/ shocktrooper boost HELL NO!
A Parry/dodge mechanic would be a good idea but then its more Palladium(rifts) then DnD, maybe just sacrificing attacks to get better AC? mixed with fighting defensively would be a major boost to AC. could use the 1/2 Attacks idea to get more attacks to defend with while moving.

#3 the skill system is mostly fine, just needs tweeks. 1:1 skill: rank cost; better Class skill setups (who has a fighter guard with no spot/listen/search!?); we already have skill tricks but more could always help, HOWEVER what it looks like you want is the unchained system from pathfinder where having enough skill ranks alters the skill itself, like 5 ranks in jump reducing the DC/ft by 1 or something.



Ideas for new feats/ techniques for mundanes mainly. (first 3 new feats taken from KotOR combat system btw)

variations of old feats. (only PHB ones)
Mobility: (replaces dodge) +4 to AC while moving in threatened areas, designate 1 target per round to gain a +1 AC bonus (scales with Bab +1/ natural iterative gained)
Precise shot (replaces Point blank shot): remove -4 penalty when firing into melee, +1 to attack and Damage rolls when target within 30 ft (scales with BaB +1/ natural Iterative gained)
Rapid Shot: acts like Two weapon fighting See below but improved/ greater version get +1 DR negation instead of +AC.
Weapon Focus: +1 to attack rolls/ natural iteratives gained
Weapon Specialization: +1 weapon damage, daggers deal 1d4 damage for medium creatures so they get +2 to their weapon damage, d6 get +3, d8 get +4, d10 +5, d12 +6, and any 2dx get +x.
Greater Weapon Focus/ Specialization gets x2 effect.
Whirlwind attack: Prerequisite change: Dex 13, Mobility, Combat expertise, BaB +4
All Craft Magic X feats (not brew potion/ forge ring/ scribe scroll): remove spellcaster requirement replace with ECL equivalent. also 1 scroll may be used per spell needed in magic item crafting.
Weapon finesse: add 1/2 dex to damage.
Toughness: (replace with improved toughness ability +3 base hit-points)
Tracking/ Trapfinding: as feats but all can track/ trapfinding, instead acts as skill focus(See Below) needed skill.

Skill Focus: +3 to specified skill +1/3 levels after feat is taken. (so if taken @ level 1 +1@ lvls 4,7,10,ect; but if taken @lvl 3 then +1@ lvls 6,9,12,ect)
2 skill feats (alertness/acrobatics/nimble fingers/ect) +2 to both skills +1 to 1 skill/ 3 lvls after feat is taken, pick which skill to upgrade when both have equal bonus from feat but other skill must be upgraded when unequal.

Straight up remove Endurance & Run feats, and Manyshot if using 1/2 # of attacks on full attack per standard attack.

Two weapon fighting: gain an extra attack when picking the feat & and extra attack @ BaB 8, 13, 18. all attacks made during a round are made at -2. (characters without this using two weapons/double weapons are made at -6)
Improved TWF: reduce attack penalty by 1, gain +1 AC due to offhand parrying
Greater TWF: Reduce attack penalty by 1, gain an additional +1 AC due to offhand parrying.


New Feats:
Flurry: +1 attack -2 to hit, improved/greater variants are like TWF (see above). melee only.
Precision: -2 to all attacks for +1 crit threat range [stacking with improved crit/ keen/ect. Improved reduces penalty by 1, greater increases threat range by 1. works for melee/ ranged.
Brutal Hit: combine attacks to deal 1/2 2nd strike damage for -2/ iterative separation [ie if using the -0 and -5 iterative as sacrifice reduce atk by 2, if using -10 instead of the -5 iterative reduce by 4, if -0 iterative no reduced attack]). Improved variant would reduce Atk Penalty by 1 per iterative separation, Greater Increases damage to 1/1.
NOTE that you don't get any bonus from weapon enchantments (fiery, shocking, ect) from this just weapon damage (including +1-10 enhancement), Strength, and power attack like feats/skills. works for melee/ ranged

Improved Tech (similar to sunder/trip/ect): +4 to specific technique, no AoO, Can be used at range.


New Techniques:
Hamper: using a called shot (see pathfinder for location chart) impair an opponent. Target Legs: -1d2 Dex -1/2 movement (-5 minimum, if target @ 0 then fall prone): Target Arms: -1d2 Str & Dex: Target Chest -1d2 Con & Str, Target Head: -1d2 Int & Wis & Cha. this is ability damage so it is temporary. this cannot reduce an opponent below 1 point in the attribute until all attributes are @1.
Sunder Limb: Resolve as Sunder attempt with -2 to attack roll (called shot modifier). when resolving damage reduce damage by armors hardness, if 1/3 opponents HP is dealt as damage limb is removed, for more than 1/4 HP dealt then treat as Hamper result, for less than 1/4 health treat as normal attack. can only be used for arms/legs.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

For anyone who likes the idea of moderately nerfing casters and buffing martials, check out Spheres of Power and Spheres of Might. My group uses them along with DSP stuff and the disparity is much less

[BassoonHero]

Battlefield control is already negated easily by smart GM/ Monsters so it doesn't need a nerf

The problem I'm concerned about is that a martial PC is negated easily by a smart GM/Monsters using common BFC. The necessary countermeasures are specific magic items that every martial character is effectively required to have unless the GM is deliberately having opponents go easy on them.

The solutions I'm working on are to allow a reflex save to escape the area of effect and to allow an Athletics skill check in place of a strength check to move.

freedom of movement doesn't need to be fixed in my opinion

At the very least, it's poorly written. I also believe that flat-out negating a tactically interesting class of spells is a bad idea, not to mention grappling. It's too strong of a silver bullet, in my opinion.

i didn't know ability damage was unwieldy?

The unwieldy part is recalculating attack bonuses, damage, ability DCs, hit points, saves, etc. I would much rather do what 3.5 did for negative levels, which is to replace the calculated effects with a simple loose approximation.

i would suggest just folding in the feats that are taxes with other feats; for example PBS is not precise shot but has PBS folded into it

The problem with this is that it doesn't really address hyperspecialization. In 3.5, if you want to do something in combat other than swing a stick for damage, you have to pay a feat tax to not suck at it. It's rarely worth paying a tax of even one feat to not suck at something that you're not going to specialize in. 5e got this right in one respect: javelins are a reasonable ranged option for strength-based martial characters. In 3.5, you need to spend a feat on Brutal Throw and two feats on Precise Shot to reach that competence baseline. Folding Precise Shot into Point Blank Shot is less bad, to be sure, but still hardly worth considering.

others like leap attack/ shocktrooper boost HELL NO!

Shock Trooper is a good example of a feat that's already at the right power level. Other feats could learn a lot from Shock Trooper.

A Parry/dodge mechanic would be a good idea but then its more Palladium(rifts) then DnD,

That's the dividing line between D&D and Rifts?

maybe just sacrificing attacks to get better AC? mixed with fighting defensively would be a major boost to AC. could use the 1/2 Attacks idea to get more attacks to defend with while moving.

Eh. It feels bad to give up attacks in exchange for numerical bonuses. Parrying should feel active. If it isn't fun to use, what's the point?

the skill system is mostly fine, just needs tweeks

I have quite a lot of objections to the skill system, but that may be a story for another time.

HOWEVER what it looks like you want is the unchained system from pathfinder where having enough skill ranks alters the skill itself, like 5 ranks in jump reducing the DC/ft by 1 or something.

The Unchained system is a good idea wasted through timidity. For one thing, most of the unlocks are minor numerical bonuses. For another, the default implementation requires spending feats to use the unlocks. Removing the latter restriction is a good start, but the granted abilities remain largely unexciting. The later abilities are wildly level-inappropriate, particularly the rank-20 capstones.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Yeah, the Occult Skill Unlocks are somewhat better and 2E’s skill system looks like one of its stronger points imo from what little we know of it

[BassoonHero]

Without derailing the thread (I hope), my chief problems with the skill system are as follows:

- Allocating skill points requires way too many tiny decisions that are individually consequential.
- Skill advancement is boring.
- Many skills don't make sense as skills in the first place, or don't merit the complexity of the skill system.
- Interesting skill-related abilities are often locked behind prestige classes and cannot be acquired within the skill system itself. The base skills do not scale adequately.

The solutions I'm working on are as follows:

- Consolidate skills to reduce "fiddliness".
- Add more uses to skills to interact with magic in a scaling-friendly way, like using Athletics to power through Solid Fog.
- Make skill tricks a core part of the system, making advancement more interesting.
- Add high-powered skill tricks that are relevant at high levels.

[lord_khaine]

Shock Trooper is a good example of a feat that's already at the right power level. Other feats could learn a lot from Shock Trooper.

No. I think Shock Trooper is a horrible feat. It twists the gameplay into an arms race, where the GM either have to follow suit.
And it makes combat even more of a game of rocket tag. I wish it had newer been printed.

[ColorBlindNinja]

No. I think Shock Trooper is a horrible feat. It twists the gameplay into an arms race, where the GM either have to follow suit.
And it makes combat even more of a game of rocket tag. I wish it had newer been printed.

All Shock Trooper does is allow you to take the penalty from power attack from to hit to AC.

It's feats like Leap Attack that actually allow charging to deal obscene levels of damage. Shock Trooper on its own doesn't do that.