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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleriphon View Post
    Because generally speaking good people don't decide genocide is the appropriate answer to a philosophical dispute.
    I've never seen the side of good as a big happy family, it's just that their disagreements are kept to the "annoying person who's good-hearted but wrong on the means" level rather than the "competitor for ultimate power that must be crushed" level. That allows cooperation--they agree on the ends but not always the means.

    Evil can't even get that far, because for some of them the means are the ends.
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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    I'm not a huge fan of "always evil and always good" it tends to make characters less interesting/relatable.

    For example what if the courageous paladin is really envious of a colleagues' success and try's to sabotage the his rival during a tourney so he can look better? The paladin is still "good", he follows the laws and helps people as much as possible but his envy causes him to resort to dirty tactics against his rival. The paladin's character is now way more interesting than your stereotypical paladin because he has a very relatable flaw.

    A villain on the other hand may be a tyrannical warlord but he also loves his pet dog. The dog is a puppy that he found during a raid and he is raising it as his own, during his free time the villain often plays, trains, and snuggles with the puppy. The villain is a horrible person but he dotes on the puppy and has a parental love for it. This bond makes the villain better because he has a human trait and is capable of empathy for other but chooses to ignore his empathy.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    Quote Originally Posted by NecroDancer View Post
    A villain on the other hand may be a tyrannical warlord but he also loves his pet dog. The dog is a puppy that he found during a raid and he is raising it as his own, during his free time the villain often plays, trains, and snuggles with the puppy. The villain is a horrible person but he dotes on the puppy and has a parental love for it. This bond makes the villain better because he has a human trait and is capable of empathy for other but chooses to ignore his empathy.
    Sounds rather like Thanos. If the dog was green, and sapient.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleriphon View Post
    Sounds rather like Thanos. If the dog was green, and sapient.
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    And he also abused the dog, but somehow still """""""""""""loved""""""""""""" it when he killed it for his own personal gain. I have problems with that scene.

    EDIT: Spoiler
    Last edited by Consensus; 2018-05-25 at 11:42 AM.
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  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    Quote Originally Posted by NecroDancer View Post
    I'm not a huge fan of "always evil and always good" it tends to make characters less interesting/relatable.

    For example what if the courageous paladin is really envious of a colleagues' success and try's to sabotage the his rival during a tourney so he can look better? The paladin is still "good", he follows the laws and helps people as much as possible but his envy causes him to resort to dirty tactics against his rival. The paladin's character is now way more interesting than your stereotypical paladin because he has a very relatable flaw.
    Depending on the level of dirty tactics, that might be a reason for the paladin to fall. Even if no one got harmed by it, I'd require him to get an antonement spell from his church or someone sharing his moral background.

    You can be perfect in all other areas, but if you have a big enough character flaw, it can keep you from being considered good enough for the paladin's code. Resorting to underhanded tactics just to look better, and not because anything important's at stake, is not what a paladin should do.
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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Wolf View Post
    Depending on the level of dirty tactics, that might be a reason for the paladin to fall. Even if no one got harmed by it, I'd require him to get an antonement spell from his church or someone sharing his moral background.

    You can be perfect in all other areas, but if you have a big enough character flaw, it can keep you from being considered good enough for the paladin's code. Resorting to underhanded tactics just to look better, and not because anything important's at stake, is not what a paladin should do.
    Yeah, Paladin's a bad example of not being fully good. Being fully good is pretty much the entire point of the class. Paladin's not really supposed to be relatable, they're supposed to be Superman if he didn't have phenomenal cosmic power.

    now if it was a fighter or cavalier with a knightly theme, that'd be perfectly in character for the times. THOSE are fair game.
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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    Quote Originally Posted by Consensus View Post
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    And he also abused the dog, but somehow still """""""""""""loved""""""""""""" it when he killed it for his own personal gain. I have problems with that scene.

    EDIT: Spoiler
    Thank you for putting into words my problems with that scene.
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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    Quote Originally Posted by AuthorGirl View Post
    Thank you for putting into words my problems with that scene.
    Yeah, you'd think that logically
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    killing a person you love for power would be a catch-22 in order to prevent a power hungry person from getting the stone, but apparently it works the exact other way and ensures no one who isn't power hungry gets the stone.
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  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    Quote Originally Posted by Archpaladin Zousha View Post
    I wanna see more muscular or chubby elves! I wanna see more slim or wiry dwarves! I wanna see humans of ALL body types in these stories, and not just chiseled barbarians and buxom princesses! I want to see more pretty orcs (these aren't TOO hard to find, but it's mostly through fanart or original depictions)! Thank you!
    There's a reason for the narrow range of body types, as well as culture etc., for fantasy races like dwarves and elves. Diversity is almost always human's shtick. Humans have diverse looks, lots of cultures, countries, are spread out over the world etc. etc. To be something else than humans, the fantasy races needs to be rather narrow cliches.

    Sure, occasionally you can play with these cliches. Make dwarves not-necessarily-stocky, or make elves have multiple, decidedly different cultures. But then, you might want to divide the race up into sub-races - that's your dark elves, wood elves etc. When a fantasy race isn't a narrow cliche, it's divided up into two narrow cliches!

    Why? Well, your world could have a description of dwarves that reads »Dwarves vary in height, but they are always at least slightly shorter than most humans. They're known to be quite stocky, but some dwarves are slim.«

    Then you follow up with »Male dwarves' facial hair grows rapidly, and as a result many wear long beards. However, there are dwarves who shave their chins clean«.

    And for a bit of varied culture, you write »Most dwarves live in underground barrows in the worlds mountain chains, where they're renowned smiths and armourers. There are also dwarf realms along the coast, where the dwarves are expert woodworkers, shipwrights and sailors.«

    So now, you've might got a player who plays a character that's on the short side for a human (but not exceedingly short), is fairly skinny, doesn't wear a beard and has a background as a pirate on the high seas. In what way is that character a dwarf?
    Last edited by Blymurkla; 2018-05-26 at 02:53 AM.

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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    Quote Originally Posted by Blymurkla View Post
    So now, you've might got a player who plays a character that's on the short side for a human (but not exceedingly short), is fairly skinny, doesn't wear a beard and has a background as a pirate on the high seas. In what way is that character a dwarf?
    When the skinny beardless dwarf pirate applies for a loan to get a new ship, elven bankers still deny him credit? When he tries to marry a human girl, her family will disown her and say "You can hire those people to build your castle but you don't let them sleep in it"? But sure, when he goes to Moria, the other dwarves will probably accuse him of trying to "act white tall".

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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    Quote Originally Posted by NecroDancer View Post
    I'm not a huge fan of "always evil and always good" it tends to make characters less interesting/relatable.
    While I agree for ALL other media, a certain black/white is very enjoyable (to me) for roleplaying. Yes, interesting backstories can be morally grey. But the world is so ambiguous nowadays, that I enjoy a bit of simplicity in my escapism.

    Orc, bad, evil, smash.
    Elf, nice, good, eat.

    Wait what?
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    "Dammit man, I said to use the MORALLY GREY flaming catapults!"
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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    Quote Originally Posted by Sporeegg View Post
    While I agree for ALL other media, a certain black/white is very enjoyable (to me) for roleplaying. Yes, interesting backstories can be morally grey. But the world is so ambiguous nowadays, that I enjoy a bit of simplicity in my escapism.

    Orc, bad, evil, smash.
    Elf, nice, good, eat.

    Wait what?
    slightly off-topic, but why are knife-ears the de facto snack on these boards? cannibalism is universally seen as evil, but if we chomp on legolas we've got a free pass or something?

    i mean, they're delicious, i'm not criticizing, just curious.
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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    Ask the beret wearing insect men of Athas.
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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    Quote Originally Posted by Blymurkla View Post
    There's a reason for the narrow range of body types, as well as culture etc., for fantasy races like dwarves and elves. Diversity is almost always human's shtick. Humans have diverse looks, lots of cultures, countries, are spread out over the world etc. etc.
    That's actually something that irks me about a lot of fantasy settings. What reason do the other races have to be monolithic that doesn't apply to the setting's humans as well? It strikes me as a plot hole and the result of lazy writing. Such explanations as are given are usually a morass of tautologies and begging the question.

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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Ask the beret wearing insect men of Athas.
    mind if i sig this? it's such a perfect dismissal, it's appropriate in all circumstances!

    1: what time is it?
    2:Ask the beret wearing insect men of Athas.

    1: what's for dinner?
    2:Ask the beret wearing insect men of Athas.

    1: why is the baby on fire?
    2: ... dude, stop.
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    regarding my choice of sustenance:
    Quote Originally Posted by Raimun View Post
    I'm going to judge you.
    My judgement is: That is awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
    GM: “If it doesn't move and it should, use duct tape. If it moves and it shouldn't, use a shotgun.”
    dm is Miltonian, credit where credit is due.

    when in doubt,
    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Ask the beret wearing insect men of Athas.

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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Beer View Post
    Ramming clumsy neologisms into the narrative when there is no imperative to do so, sorry you are not Tolkien, you didn't invent a whole language...elves can just say 'my cloak' not 'my piwafwi'. Forgotten Realms books were particularly egregious offenders.
    The Lord of the Rings movies are actually somewhat guilty of this, as they randomly went from talking between human and elvish in conversations (although I can recall certain times where this was practical, such as hiding information from other characters)
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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    Quote Originally Posted by The Jack View Post
    Ten thousand extra minus points if they're japanese blades in a european setting.
    This bugs me a lot, especially if they are katanas in a European setting. IIRC katana forging techniques existed due to the limited amount of iron due to living on an island, although I'm no historian, and I'm sure trade with the Portuguese could have changed this. In any case, I find it hard to see a weapon like the katana being used against an opponent in plate armor.
    I'm a Lawful Good Human Paladin
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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    Quote Originally Posted by 8BitNinja View Post
    In any case, I find it hard to see a weapon like the katana being used against an opponent in plate armor.
    because it would be useless. a katana's construction wouldn't endure the first hit. the blade construction and resistance is all wrong. in europe, we built the messers, which are built in opposite strengths to a katana's. the europeans had the messer to fill the niche role of the katana (sort of...). you've got a few different versions, but thank german law for it all. a messer is a saber build like a knife. you've got your regular messer, akin to a machete (yeah, big knife, but it's 15th century rules-lawyering). then you've got your kriegsmesser. that'd be the germanic equivalent to the falchion, meant to hit hard but be wielded with the same basic moves as a sword. finally, you've got the grosse messer. which is nearly 5 feet long, curved, and meant to ruin your day. enough impact strength to break a bone under plate, and absurdly deadly for cutting. it is a saber, after all.

    i wrote all this before looking at the wikipedia page, and i'm glad my years of studying military history paid off somewhat. i'm not entirely wrong on all counts!
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    regarding my choice of sustenance:
    Quote Originally Posted by Raimun View Post
    I'm going to judge you.
    My judgement is: That is awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by DigoDragon View Post
    GM: “If it doesn't move and it should, use duct tape. If it moves and it shouldn't, use a shotgun.”
    dm is Miltonian, credit where credit is due.

    when in doubt,
    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Ask the beret wearing insect men of Athas.

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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    It annoys me more that nobody seems to "get" japan. I actually tried to write a guide to setting a game in japan, but my computer isn't reliable and it was lost and I started to wonder if it was an actuall good idea.

    The folding technique was something they used in the west, but then they worked out better techniques so didn't need it. For whatever reason the Japanese didn't work out these better techniques so they doubled down on the folding.

    The Katana was a weapon found among all classes, there was no restriction to the samurai until the edo period, which was really late.

    The Katana wasn't a battlefield weapon. Just like a sword (or longsword) it was nice for carrying around town and when doing your civilian duties, but in a pitched battle it'll be your sidearm to a polearm, great weapon, bow or gun. I actually felt infuriated when I read the Lot5r/Oriental adventures part about katana/wakazashi being the only honourable weapons for samurai on samurai fights.
    The katana should not be a finesse weapon, while we're here. It's perfectly a longsword.

    When it came to honour, samurai were not really that different from knights. Some were the ideal and all about holding honour, many were much more pragmatic, some were real bastards. Seppuku was more often an execution than a suicide.

    Shinobi were functionally just spies, the same as anywhere else. They could be a samurai, peasant, prostitute or merchant. Their primary job was to gather information. I like the bombastic Ninja concept, but I am convinced they should be quite separate. Oh, shinobi had no special weapons, shuriken were something some samurai used.

    Nobody wants to use guns in a samurai setting, which is a shame, because guns, or the outside influence of technologically superior powers, were real instigators.

    Sohei Warrior monks are underated, which reminds me; The Barbarian class fits japanese warrior monks more than the "monk" class does (Fighter fits everything) Japanese warrior monk orders fought with armour and weapons, and were quite a troublesome lot. For whatever reason, honing the body was great for the spirit in japanese buddhism, in general, a re-fluffed barbarian works for Sohei/Yamabushi far more than a "monk" class does, and it's good that 5e Barbarians can read. The "monk" class works nicely for chinese immigrants (or their analogues) fighters in an edo-like period or mythical wire-fu beast people, but not the warrior monks of japan.

    Pirates also an oddly overlooked by the west part of fuedal japan.

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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    Quote Originally Posted by 8BitNinja View Post
    This bugs me a lot, especially if they are katanas in a European setting. IIRC katana forging techniques existed due to the limited amount of iron due to living on an island, although I'm no historian, and I'm sure trade with the Portuguese could have changed this. In any case, I find it hard to see a weapon like the katana being used against an opponent in plate armor.
    The way they folded the steel over and over to make many layers was a necessity of the quality of their iron. The shape and style of the finished katana has nothing to do with it. The Japanese used to make straight swords too before settling on "hand-and-a-half saber" as the default sword shape. Vikings used to use the same forging techniques and the swords they made were nothing like katana in shape or use.

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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    Quote Originally Posted by The Jack View Post
    -snip-

    The Katana wasn't a battlefield weapon. Just like a sword (or longsword) it was nice for carrying around town and when doing your civilian duties, but in a pitched battle it'll be your sidearm to a polearm, great weapon, bow or gun. I actually felt infuriated when I read the Lot5r/Oriental adventures part about katana/wakazashi being the only honourable weapons for samurai on samurai fights.
    The katana should not be a finesse weapon, while we're here. It's perfectly a longsword.

    -snip-

    Sohei Warrior monks are underated, which reminds me; The Barbarian class fits japanese warrior monks more than the "monk" class does (Fighter fits everything) Japanese warrior monk orders fought with armour and weapons, and were quite a troublesome lot. For whatever reason, honing the body was great for the spirit in japanese buddhism, in general, a re-fluffed barbarian works for Sohei/Yamabushi far more than a "monk" class does, and it's good that 5e Barbarians can read. The "monk" class works nicely for chinese immigrants (or their analogues) fighters in an edo-like period or mythical wire-fu beast people, but not the warrior monks of japan.
    Pirates also an oddly overlooked by the west part of fuedal japan.
    There's a reason I reworked the starting weapons for samurai in my 3.X games. I let them basically be any weapon the character can wield. As for the sohei, OA did have that they just... kinda suck. Lack of support and slightly worse versions of other classes' abilities being their main problems. Though I always thought monk was intended to represent Chinese monks, not Japanese monks. Never crossed my mind to equate them to anything Japanese, actually.
    Last edited by Luccan; 2018-05-26 at 02:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    I looked at all the "oriental" classes (it pains me how japan-centric "oriental" often is) and went "nope"
    Fighter, barbarian, paladin, cleric, ranger... All the Japanese rolls fit nicely within the western classes, especially if we're considering 5e.

    Shugenja, is, as far as I know, straight out made-up. Just grab your caster of choice and make your Taoist/Confucian/animistic/shinto/buddhist reskin (As opposed to the hermetic/gnostic/pagan/abrahamic things we put onto western wizards)

    Japan is so over-represented. The mythology of the Norse, Greeks and egyptians are overdone, and the bog-standard western europe (-american frontier) isn't grand.
    I'd really appreciate someone capable of crafting a proper arabian/indian/slavic/american/Sub-Saharan setting for me. That, or if someone could really nail western europe like nobody does, that'd be great.

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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    Quote Originally Posted by The Jack View Post
    I looked at all the "oriental" classes (it pains me how japan-centric "oriental" often is) and went "nope"
    Fighter, barbarian, paladin, cleric, ranger... All the Japanese rolls fit nicely within the western classes, especially if we're considering 5e.

    Shugenja, is, as far as I know, straight out made-up. Just grab your caster of choice and make your Taoist/Confucian/animistic/shinto/buddhist reskin (As opposed to the hermetic/gnostic/pagan/abrahamic things we put onto western wizards)

    Japan is so over-represented. The mythology of the Norse, Greeks and egyptians are overdone, and the bog-standard western europe (-american frontier) isn't grand.
    I'd really appreciate someone capable of crafting a proper arabian/indian/slavic/american/Sub-Saharan setting for me. That, or if someone could really nail western europe like nobody does, that'd be great.
    I'm sure there are people who can, but you have to remember most people write what they know (or at least, what won't get them yelled at too much if they mess it up). And most writers popular in the west are, well, western. So western Europe, sometimes with tropes more suited to the American Old West, is a more common fantasy base. Japan gets a lot of focus because Japanese media is more easily accessed in the west.

    In defense of Rokugan, it is fantasy. It isn't an accurate representation of feudal Japan, but neither is the Forgotten Realms an accurate representation of medieval Europe.
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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    And having tried to find information about the Old Khmer civilization to flesh out a culture for my setting, finding information for the layperson on any but the "big" (well-known, etc) civilizations is pretty darn hard.
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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    Also, for pen-and-paper RPGs in particular, I've found it to be a huge advantage to have players already be familiar with certain broad strokes of the setting when they jump in. And the (rather unfortunate, but true) fact in my experience is that far more people who play RPGs have a ready mental image of a setting inspired by medieval western Europe, feudal Japan, or Greek and Norse mythology than any of those other cultures. Being able to say "it's like medieval England, but with elves" and have the players immediately be able to picture that leaves them with far more energy to think about playing their characters, and to know how said characters might react to a situation without having to first jump through fifteen mental hoops to visualize everything, and then think about how a character to whom it's all familiar would feel about it.

    In a novel or a CRPG or what have you, where much of that work is already done for you as a player, then by all means go nuts. Same if you know your players are familiar with the relevant history and mythology. But for my part, I'll be careful about trying to build my RPG settings off of historical bases that none of my group are acquainted with (myself included--I can't claim to know enough to pull off an Arabian or Indian or pre-colonial American setting).
    Last edited by Amaril; 2018-05-26 at 05:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Jack View Post
    I looked at all the "oriental" classes (it pains me how japan-centric "oriental" often is) and went "nope"
    Fighter, barbarian, paladin, cleric, ranger... All the Japanese rolls fit nicely within the western classes, especially if we're considering 5e.

    Shugenja, is, as far as I know, straight out made-up. Just grab your caster of choice and make your Taoist/Confucian/animistic/shinto/buddhist reskin (As opposed to the hermetic/gnostic/pagan/abrahamic things we put onto western wizards)

    Japan is so over-represented. The mythology of the Norse, Greeks and egyptians are overdone, and the bog-standard western europe (-american frontier) isn't grand.
    I'd really appreciate someone capable of crafting a proper arabian/indian/slavic/american/Sub-Saharan setting for me. That, or if someone could really nail western europe like nobody does, that'd be great.
    I'm getting into Chinese settings at the moment, as the fact that China is slightly less popular means it's easier to find the good ones.

    The first thing I've noticed is that, if running in D&D, the monk would be the first class I ban. The main class selection I'd give in a Wuxia D&D game is Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue, homebrew Daoist class that gives access to external alchemy, internal alchemy, and divination (it's recommended to focus on one). Possibly Paladin and Ranger as well, especially spellless variants.

    But yeah, a well done Arabian or Slavic setting would be amazing to me. Especially if it used a system specifically designed for it. I mean, I enjoy iron age Celts as much as the next guy, but they're essentially what everybody goes for when they don't want to do 'medieval', samurai, or vikings.
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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    I think you might be a bit too hard an the DND Monk. While it is definitely nothing like historically accurate, it is also in a setting with nothing like our history. The Monk as a class is not made to accurately model real life warrior monks (which weren't super common anyway, and I'm pretty sure that the type that they are trying to model is Chinese and not Japanese), it is made so that someone can have a character based on an old cheesy martial arts movie with an impractical number of flips in the combat. Plus, while I understand your sentiment, the Monk is a really cool class mechanically and I think that banning it outright for being historically inaccurate isn't the best approach (though that was probably hyperbole). Anyway, devils' advocate etc. etc.
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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    Quote Originally Posted by Xuc Xac View Post
    When the skinny beardless dwarf pirate applies for a loan to get a new ship, elven bankers still deny him credit? When he tries to marry a human girl, her family will disown her and say "You can hire those people to build your castle but you don't let them sleep in it"? But sure, when he goes to Moria, the other dwarves will probably accuse him of trying to "act white tall".
    I think I fail to understand your point, Xuc Xac.

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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    Quote Originally Posted by The Jack View Post
    Shugenja, is, as far as I know, straight out made-up. Just grab your caster of choice and make your Taoist/Confucian/animistic/shinto/buddhist reskin (As opposed to the hermetic/gnostic/pagan/abrahamic things we put onto western wizards)
    It feels like making D&D Wizard fit a any of those molds would require so much reworking that you might as well just chuck Wizard entirely and make a whole new class. Wizard is WAY too steeped into specific assumptions to map to basically anything else (which is in fact something of a problem players already have with the D&D wizard in western fantasy settings already, because D&D wizard has a massive pile of assumptions built in that don't actually map to anything except an extremely specific kind of pseudo-hermetic mage... and D&D-inspired fiction).

    You can, conceivably, manage to remap clerics to shinto priests with some merciless brutalizing of spell lists, but I'm pretty sure Wizard is just kind of a lost cause.
    Last edited by Drascin; 2018-05-27 at 04:27 AM.

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    Default Re: Annoying Fantasy Clichés II: We're gonna need more Trope

    Oddly, the Monk could happily be used for South east asia, india or an arabian setting, (America/africa makes much sense too) they're not exclusively chinese. Hell I don't mind making western monks (since the western setting is so watered down anyway) but for some maddening reason they're not allowed scimitars despite the allowance of short swords. Madness.

    But then again they can't use polearms, and I can't really imagine shaolin knockoffs without polearms.
    The monk class always just struck me as contrived, I'd rather see fighters/barbarians/rangers/paladins/war clerics with hand to hand advantages than a specific hand to hand class based on a poorly aged movie trope.
    Last edited by The Jack; 2018-05-27 at 04:34 AM.

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