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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    To answer your questions:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourne View Post
    Interesting subclass, though it fits into the contest more thematically than mechanically imo (something I'm very guilty of myself).
    I dunno. It's all about gathering information via divination magic. I reckon that's pretty technical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourne View Post
    what are Chronomancy spells? A custom spell school I’m guessing?
    Gah, that's a copy-paste error. It should say divination and transmutation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourne View Post
    This feels somewhat underpowered compared to the other Rogue archetypes.
    Well, it's an interaction feature. It's not going to be powerful. I'm not too worried about this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourne View Post
    Is the expectation here then that the rules for casting spells with a bonus action (PHB p202) are then followed?
    Yes. As a 1/3 caster, you don't have enough slots to be throwing around two spells in a turn, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourne View Post
    Would this include the Hunter’s Mark (if gained from multi-classing) and the expanded benefit of Multiplexed True Strike? How would you handle the benefits of Guidance (also, if received from multi-classing)?
    Yes and yes. I guess guidance just wouldn't gain any extra benefit from this, since the caster isn't gaining information. The DM has to make a call there.
    Last edited by Ninja_Prawn; 2018-05-30 at 02:01 AM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Way of Invention (Protato) -- Comments

    Straight to the feature comments...

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    Power Fist
    At third level, you create an advanced gauntlet weapon called a Power Fist. This weapon is treated as a Monk Weapon for you. When you make a successful attack roll with a Power Fist, you can push an enemy back by 5 feet by spending 1 point of Ki. You also push an enemy back by 5 feet on a natural 20.

    Seems weaker than Open Hand Technique which can knock prone or push the target 15 feet (as well as stop reactions).

    Voltaic Fist
    At sixth level, you have managed to upgrade the Power Fist with an electric charge. Upon a successful attack roll, you may spend 3 Ki Points to deal 1d10 Lightning damage and the target must make a Constitution saving throw or be paralyzed until the start of your next turn.

    Paralyzed is probably definitely too much… I’d prefer stunned if you really feel the need to attach a condition (as it doesn’t grant auto crits like paralyzed). Maybe not needed since there’s a condition involved, but maybe progress the damage slightly similar to how Fist of Four Thunders works with allowing more ki to improve Thunderwave.

    Jump Jet
    At eleventh level, you have crafted a pair of boots or a backpack that allows for efficient flight. By spending 3 Ki points as an action, you gain a fly speed equal to 1.5 times your movement speed until the start of your next turn.

    In a lot of ways (due to costing an action + a steep ki cost), this is weaker than Shadow Step (as a comparison) -- I know that fly speed does not equal teleportation, but it felt like a good comparison point to me. I’d think about buffing this one.

    Flame Jet
    At seventeenth level, you have upgraded the flame of your Jump Jet's flames to harm your enemies. When using your Jump Jet, all creatures within 5 feet of you must make a Dexterity saving throw or take 3d6 Fire damage, or half of that on a failed save.

    Is this within 5 feet at any given position (so, as you move through enemies they take damage) or only upon “take off” or “landing”?

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    I posted the Grammaton Cleric, my very first foray into 5e's rule system, so I am eager for a PEACH, as I'm not even sure I understand the rules I'm breaking. Specifically, I'd like to know if any of the abilities I gave him are redundant or otherwise irrelevant.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    *sucks teeth* yeah, I reckon this is gonna get a bit messy...

    Quote Originally Posted by sengmeng View Post
    Gun Jitsu
    At third level, the Grammaton Cleric gains three benefits from the Gun Kata monastic tradition:

    He does not have disadvantage on firearm attacks against adjacent opponents.

    He may spend a Ki point to grant bonus damage to all firearm attacks (whether firing the weapon or using it as a blunt instrument) equal to his martial arts damage.

    He may fire or reload a firearm in place of any unarmed strike.
    Replacing an unarmed strike with a gunshot at 3rd level is... way overpowered. Your at-will damage is going from 2d4+6=11 to 4d10+6=28 (assuming 16 Dex and modern firearms as per the DMG).

    1 ki point for adding your martial arts damage to all attacks is an improvement on Flurry of Blows in terms of cost-effectiveness (and you don't specify how long the bonus lasts. I assume just for the turn you use it). On its own it might be alright - but I don't see how it fits the theme, really.

    And I think the Japanese word you want is jutsu, but I could be wrong there.

    Quote Originally Posted by sengmeng View Post
    Bullet Ballet
    At sixth level the Grammaton Cleric gains double his dexterity or wisdom modifier to his AC versus only ranged attacks any round in which he both moves and fires a firearm at an opponent.
    This is unclear. Do you mean AC = 10 + Dex + Wis + (Dex or Wis), or do you mean AC = normal AC + 2x(Dex or Wis)? My reading would imply the latter, which is horribly overpowered. 'Opponent' is also poorly defined. Can I declare a rat from this big ol' sack as my opponent? Also, this conflicts weirdly with the monk's Deflect Missiles ability. Incoming missile attacks aren't really a problem for monks.

    Quote Originally Posted by sengmeng View Post
    Suppress Emotions
    At eleventh level, the Grammaton Cleric gains total immunity to any effect that manipulates his emotions, as if under the effects of a calm emotions spell. He may suppress or resume this ability at will as a free action, and it functions even in an antimagic field.
    That's not what calm emotions does... And between the core monk abilities Stillness of Mind and Diamond Soul, you don't really need another thing protecting you from charm/fear.

    Quote Originally Posted by sengmeng View Post
    Perfect Aim
    At 17th level, the Grammaton Cleric automatically criticals with any firearm attack that has advantage and both dice roll hits. He has advantage on firearm attacks against adjacent opponents, and gains advantage on all firearm attacks plus the martial arts damage bonus if he pays 1 ki point.

    One With the Gun
    At 17th level, the Grammaton Cleric's firearm attacks and attacks using a firearm as a blunt instrument always gain his martial arts bonus damage and overcome damage reduction as if they were magical. He can also use his Stunning Strike ability with either type of firearm attack, and a successful strike with a firearm as a blunt instrument grants a free action that can be used to reload or fire that firearm.
    Both of these strike me as too strong at first glance. Adding another martial arts die to every attack is +3d10 at level 17; more if you flurry. In comparison, the shadow monk's DPR goes up by 1d10+5 (assuming 20 Dex) at this level, and it costs them their reaction. For Perfect Aim, it'd be much more sensible to just expand the crit range to natural 19s, like what the Champion does.

    Oh, and you never specify what the damage die is for a firearm used as a melee weapon.
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    First off, thank you for being prompt and thorough. I expect to have some difficulty dialing in the balance on an unfamiliar system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja_Prawn View Post
    Replacing an unarmed strike with a gunshot at 3rd level is... way overpowered. Your at-will damage is going from 2d4+6=11 to 4d10+6=28 (assuming 16 Dex and modern firearms as per the DMG).
    How about reducing it to one each per round and costing a ki point? One unarmed attack can be replaced with a gunshot, one unarmed attack can be replaced with a reload?

    1 ki point for adding your martial arts damage to all attacks is an improvement on Flurry of Blows in terms of cost-effectiveness (and you don't specify how long the bonus lasts. I assume just for the turn you use it). On its own it might be alright - but I don't see how it fits the theme, really.
    Sorry yes, just the turn. It doesn't fit the the theme of a gun-based martial art? I'm not sure I understand.

    And I think the Japanese word you want is jutsu, but I could be wrong there.
    I wasn't aware jitsu and jutsu were different, but I googled it and jutsu is technique or art and jitsu is truth... either way is fine with me.

    This is unclear. Do you mean AC = 10 + Dex + Wis + (Dex or Wis), or do you mean AC = normal AC + 2x(Dex or Wis)? My reading would imply the latter, which is horribly overpowered. 'Opponent' is also poorly defined. Can I declare a rat from this big ol' sack as my opponent? Also, this conflicts weirdly with the monk's Deflect Missiles ability. Incoming missile attacks aren't really a problem for monks.
    The former; I'll reference the Unarmored Defense ability as the base AC, and give it the same circumstantial restrictions. Yes, it does seem redundant, but am I right in assuming that bullets can't be deflected? Because the Grammaton Clerics in the movie were very adept at fighting opponents who also had guns and body positioning to minimize their target profile for return fire was specifically emphasized. I'll probably actually take out the word opponent all together; if you want to waste a bullet to gain AC, why stop you?

    That's not what calm emotions does... And between the core monk abilities Stillness of Mind and Diamond Soul, you don't really need another thing protecting you from charm/fear.
    That's just fluff; it does what calm emotions does. It does seem redundant, but again, it's a reference to the film (emotion suppressing drugs were mandatory in their society). Do you have another suggestion for an ability based on not having emotions and/or extreme focus?

    Both of these strike me as too strong at first glance. Adding another martial arts die to every attack is +3d10 at level 17; more if you flurry. In comparison, the shadow monk's DPR goes up by 1d10+5 (assuming 20 Dex) at this level, and it costs them their reaction. For Perfect Aim, it'd be much more sensible to just expand the crit range to natural 19s, like what the Champion does.
    Sorry, I wasn't clear there: they don't add another die of martial arts damage, they just get an additional benefit of advantage. I'll be adjusting the wording. I thought about an increased threat range too, but I thought it was more tactically interesting to have to spend resources or arrange to otherwise have advantage.

    Oh, and you never specify what the damage die is for a firearm used as a melee weapon.
    Idk. The rules should have guidance based on their size, shouldn't they? Should I quote the improvised weapons rules?
    Last edited by sengmeng; 2018-06-05 at 03:16 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sengmeng View Post
    How about reducing it to one each per round and costing a ki point? One unarmed attack can be replaced with a gunshot, one unarmed attack can be replaced with a reload?
    Hmm, well... you can kind of already do that. The default rules for firearms say you can reload as a bonus action, which is what one of your unarmed strikes would be. So this formulation wouldn't give you any benefit until you get Extra Attack level 5, which is weird for a 3rd level ability.

    I guess I was kind of exaggerating the difference as well - if firearms are monk weapons, your at-will damage starts at 2d10+1d4+6. And if firearms are on the table everyone will be doing more damage than normal... Maybe I was being overly critical before.

    Quote Originally Posted by sengmeng View Post
    am I right in assuming that bullets can't be deflected?
    The PHB doesn't say; firearms do not exist as far as it is concerned. I'd have allowed a regular monk to catch bullets, on the basis that a gunshot is a 'ranged weapon attack' so the RAW supports it, and it's just cooler that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by sengmeng View Post
    Do you have another suggestion for an ability based on not having emotions and/or extreme focus?
    Nothing comes immediately to mind, but then I'm not familiar with the lore here. Overall this ability isn't a huge problem, it just seemed a little redundant.

    Quote Originally Posted by sengmeng View Post
    Idk. The rules should have guidance based on their size, shouldn't they? Should I quote the improvised weapons rules?
    I'm afraid there's no official guidance. It's basically 'improvised weapons are 1d4 unless the DM feels otherwise'. But your intro bit specified that guns are not improvised weapons for monks, so...
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja_Prawn View Post
    I'm not familiar with the lore here.
    2002's Equilibrium, starring Christian Bale, Sean Bean, and Taye Diggs. Pure stylistic awesome, and trope namer for Gun Kata.

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    So, I made a thing. A thing fundamentally cribbed from Pathfinder in basic concept, but a thing nonetheless. Plzrate+comment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    So, I made a thing. A thing fundamentally cribbed from Pathfinder in basic concept, but a thing nonetheless. Plzrate+comment.
    I like it in concept; I don't know much about 5e, but this seems to fit very well with the idea of each class having several paths, and is very streamlined. I can't comment on the balance and power levels, but I like each class having a stealthy sneaky option. Any ideas on how to make it synergize with the heavy armor users? Also, I don't see a very strong connection to the theme, but I think I care about that more than other people on all of these forum contests.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sengmeng View Post
    This will be the best five minutes of your day, I promise.
    I don't know... today was the first day that I've needed sunscreen this year.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sengmeng View Post
    Any ideas on how to make it synergize with the heavy armor users?
    These tend to be the classes with extra attack, so more likely to land at least one hit and therefore sneak attack, and it's not like uncanny dodge doesn't work in armour - in fact, it almost works especially well in armour because you so rarely get hit.

    Also, I don't see a very strong connection to the theme, but I think I care about that more than other people on all of these forum contests.
    Well, I think of the rogue as the most technology-inclined class, and I want to keep this vaguely usable in an ordinary D&D game.

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    I made some adjustments to the Grammaton Cleric. Last changes in considering are swapping some normal monk utility abilities for something more investigation-related, since that was their other main skill set besides murdering rooms full of people at a time.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    How is everyone feeling? A little under a week left to go!

    Anyone want feedback? I have been busy the last couple weeks, as I expected, but I'm happy to chime in over the next couple days.

    I'm currently looking at separating Splitting Lens from the Bardic Inspiration drain for College of Optics.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    Anyone want feedback? I have been busy the last couple weeks, as I expected, but I'm happy to chime in over the next couple days.
    I would like some feedback on my Magitech Wizard. I gave it a lot of options but I want to make sure the options make sense and feel right. And I wanted to try my own hand at the Lore/Invention Wizard ability of "change spells" that they keep trying in Unearthed Arcana

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    Quote Originally Posted by WarrentheHero View Post
    I would like some feedback on my Magitech Wizard. I gave it a lot of options but I want to make sure the options make sense and feel right. And I wanted to try my own hand at the Lore/Invention Wizard ability of "change spells" that they keep trying in Unearthed Arcana
    My pleasure!

    You use "per day" terminology in a couple places. 5e uses "You have X uses of ABILITY. You regain all uses on completing a short/long/short or long rest."

    You do have a lot of features, but since the 3rd level ones are all mutually exclusive and the 14th level ones just upgrade the 3rd, you're probably okay (compare Totem Barbarian, which has 3 base and 2 more expanded mutually exclusive features every time they improve). If you're really worried, Channel Gauntlet, Magipistol, and Runescribed Weapon all occupy the same conceptual space, so you could merge or remove some of them. Specific feature notes follow:

    Arcane Armor (3rd): Since this armor counts as light armor, do you get to add your Dexterity modifier to it? If so, it's too strong. If not, clarify. The always-prepared Shield spell is a nice touch.
    Arcane De-resonator (3rd): The auto-counterspell effect is fairly strong but not objectionably so to me, especially coming before the actual Counterspell spell. It should probably be a full action to activate with its duration and potency. However, the "requires concentration" effect I do object to as being too strong. I would drop the concentration to cast spells of the same school, but keep the disadvantage on concentration for those spells.
    Channel Gauntlet (3rd): This is the coolest of the "weapons I have created" group, thematically. I would make the 1d8 plus saving throw default for the gauntlet, and remove the 1d10 option. This is because all your other items have two parts: Primary Usage and Secondary Benefit, except this one where the Secondary Benefit is optional and weakens the Primary Usage.
    Magipistol (3rd): The expanded range on attack roll spells is nice and thematic, but it is stronger than a Sorcerer's Metamagic effect Distant Spell for melee spells (by a lot), and the ranged spells which benefit from it are limited without sharpshooter to negate the long range disadvantage. Force damage makes sense for the effect. Overall, probably stronger than but less cool than the Gauntlet.
    Runescribed Weapon (3rd): Smite benefit is solid, but scales differently than other smites (which are 2d8 at 1st level, plus 1d8 per level above, up to 5). Since Wizards get bigger spell slots than Paladins or Warlocks, you might want to match the wording on Divine Smite for this effect. When you use the spell to automatically hit with a touch spell, what type of action is that? Do you still deal damage with the weapon? Clearer wording would help here. Something like: "When a spell calls for you to make a melee spell attack, you can make a melee weapon attack with your Runescribed Weapon in place of the spell attack as a bonus action. If you do so, that spell deals additional damage equal to the damage dealt by your Runescribed Weapon. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier. You regain all spent uses on completing a long rest." Obviously adjust it to your intended use. Overall, this is cooler than the pistol fluff-wise, and at present probably the strongest of the three weapons (with the crazy smite scaling and no action required to cast a spell for free on a hit). I still think the gauntlet is coolest in theme.
    Runescribed Weapon (3rd), again:Should this be a melee weapon? By context it seems like it should, especially as a contrast to Magipistol. Otherwise, I get Heavy Crossbow range with my Touch spells.
    Inventive Tools Standard ribbon. Poisoner's kit is odd in the context of the class.
    Innovative Casting: Spells being modified when prepared rather than when cast differentiates from metamagic, so that's good. The Area effect would make more sense if it modified the existing given dimensions (most everything uses radius in the stat block, so allowing modification to diameter is strange mechanically). Type is fine, though the save-changing clause I am on the fence about. Echoing is stronger than the Diviner's feature that regains spell slots, even with the action economy lost (since you cast a spell to use it, you can't use that bonus action to also cast a spell anyway, so unless you have a multiclass you basically always get the spell slot with nothing lost). Forceful is a good addition. Most area spells require a save already, so this does increase the dice burden of playing a wizard.
    Innovative Casting Drawback:This is a fairly intense drawback, considering wizards are not proficient in Con saves. At best, this happens only 25% of the time (with a 20 Con as a Wizard), and more frequently for most of their existence. This does balance out Echoing spell, but leaves Type and Range somewhere behind the curve relative to the potential penalty.
    Arcane Analysis: 5e doesn't have explicit distinctions between Arcane and Divine magic anymore. Allowing automatic spell identification of any spell would not be unreasonable either. Expertise in Arcana and proficiency in Dispel/Counter is the main draw of this feature anyway, especially the latter which is pretty cool.
    Arcane Armor (14th): This gives a benefit every other day in practice. Maybe make it a spell that is stored when you regain spell slots after a long rest instead? It's fine in its current state too though.
    Arcane De-Resonator (14th): This is where the auto-concentration effect from 3rd could go. Auto-countering all spells of a given school up to your highest spell slot for 1 minute is crazy powerful against any spellcasting enemy, especially since most monsters focus on one or two spell schools.
    Channel Gauntlet (14th): Reducing the die size is not as big a hit as it seems (effectively -1 damage per die, BUT you also are guaranteed to do at least half damage, and in an area). I would just make using this feature either A: consume a spell slot and deal damage based on the spell level, or B: usable at full damage a finite number of times per long/short rest.
    Magipistol (14th): A rather weak upgrade, especially considering how many ways a wizard at level 14 who selected for spell attack spells has to do different damage types already. I don't have any other ideas right now though.
    Runescribed Weapon (14th): AC bonus steps on the toes of Arcane Armor as a defensive option. Extra Force damage makes sense. The Dispel Magic effect is oddly specific for a class feature and also steps on the toes of the Arcane De-Resonator as an anti-magic option. Might make it spells which affect a single target in general instead of just Dispel Magic.


    Probably a bit of a wall-o-text for your needs, but I hope that something here was helpful.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    How is everyone feeling? A little under a week left to go!

    Anyone want feedback? I have been busy the last couple weeks, as I expected, but I'm happy to chime in over the next couple days.

    I'm currently looking at separating Splitting Lens from the Bardic Inspiration drain for College of Optics.
    I will take all the help I can get. I can't really offer much in return except reactions to fluff as I know just enough about 5e to keep my entry from being gibberish.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    I would love some critique, and am totally about to critique everyone else too!

    Clockwork Warframe
    Augmented strength: This is fine, but honestly a little weird. You can wield versatile weapons in one hand as though you were wielding them in two hands, but you can't wield two-handed weapons in one hand, but you can wield two-handed weapons without the penalty for being small, which you might not be because it's not restricted to small creatures, meaning that a human with this ability is basically going to be wielding a warhammer or longsword because those are basically the only decent weapons for a creature with this ability.
    Gadgeteer's Tools: This is a neat ability, and honestly, I'm concerned that the combination of these two abilities might be better than, for example, getting to crit an extra time out of 20 - the above ability, after all, already increases your damage by 1 per attack, as opposed to by maybe 7 per 20 attacks. Then you get an important benefit for grapples and shoves, doubled carry cap, and then you get a whole other class feature! And it's not a bad one; two extra proficiencies, and expertise on anything machine-related. That's pretty good!
    Bond Breaker: This probably isn't meant to make it easier to move through your allies' spaces, but by god it does (are you going to argue that a dragonborn paladin isn't a "Physical obstruction"?). It's probably also better than half-proficiency on things you were never trying to be good at and the ability to jump a little further.
    Weaponised Exoskeleton: This gives you two options: one which regularly gives you, effectively, at least one extra attack, and one which is rarely usable but freaking awesome. Both are probably more useful than a +1 to AC. Technically nothing says you can't sweeping strike with a longbow and royally mess up everyone within 600 feet of you in a particular arc, though it's still pretty nasty if you're just wielding a melee reach weapon. Death from above is actually ridiculously powerful if you get a chance to use it - first, you deal a bunch of unavoidable damage to a creature (no, having to hit with one of the three attacks you'll have by next level doesn't count as "Avoidable"), then it needs to save or be knocked down and take yet another attack. So, for example, suppose your wizard friend decides to cast fly on you. You fly up 60 feet and shoot three longbow shots down at the enemies. Then you do it again. Then you fly up another 60 feet and take out your greatsword. Then, your wizard gets distracted by a nearby butterfly. You land on the enemy, make four greatsword attacks against them, and then hit them with 18d6 points of damage, and you didn't give up any of your actions to actually set up that attack. Or, you just get a chance to leap from a balcony onto someone for a free 10d6 points of damage and extra weapon attack? It just feels like a feature which will either do nothing or wreck encounters.
    Defensive Augmentation: Both of these are probably fine, except that I should point out that burst of speed allows you to Death from Above just by virtue of being able to jump high enough. So at this point, you can now jump, force a strength check against falling prone, make your full complement of attacks plus an extra one if you knocked the enemy prone, and deal an extra d6 damage for good measure.
    Stabilising Frame: Seems fine.

    College of Optics
    Honestly, the whole thing gets one piece of critique: it seems pretty weak. For example, it lets you use every single use of bardic inspiration a 15th-level 20-CHA 20-DEX bard owns in order to deal 1d10+2d12+5 points of damage to each of three creatures. That's a fireball, or rather, that's not even a fireball, because a fireball does more damage than that and if it misses, it still actually does some of that damage. Alternatively, you can "Only" use two of your bardic inspirations to... do very slightly more damage than a fighter will do by just attacking with a longbow normally. Honestly, I'd rather just spend my bardic inspiration to do the thing that bardic inspiration does.

    The Path to the Singularity
    You should probably specify that it's a monk archetype, even though it's kinda obvious.
    Man-Machine: I'm a 17th-level singularity monk: what's my unarmed strike die? I know it's obviously meant to be d12, but you need to say that. Also +numbers is kinda boring, no? (No, "Champion did it" is not an excuse.)
    More Machine Than Man: Sewer plague causes exhaustion and other effects; do you get advantage on saves against sewer plague? Also, more boring +numbers?
    Blinged-out Robo Bits: Rocket fist seems ridiculously impractical, especially since there's a nonzero chance of permanently losing one of your hands every time you use it. General reinforcements is mediocre +numbers but fine, whatever, that's what we expect at this point. The other two are a real contest, though.
    I, Robot: Spending a ki point to let a friendly sorcerer heal you for 3d8 or maybe 4d8 damage out of a cantrip is genuinely useful, I guess, or try to stand in the way of lightning bolts. It's a bit obvious, though, that this will mainly be used to let allies deliberately shock you to heal you. It's also not entirely clear, but you might be able to choose whether or not to use it after rolling to see how much damage you would have taken, so the sorcerer can "Take 24" (or "Take 32") on the shocking grasp damage roll, well maybe? I'm a little concerned that this makes you ridiculously hard to kill, because DR 6/- is actually quite nice in 5e.

    Way of Invention
    Power Fist: This seems like a generally worse version of open hand technique.
    Voltaic Fist: Paralysed is similar enough to stunned that I feel you could have got away with the stunning fist reference. 3 ki points to deal 1d10 damage and maybe lock an enemy down for a turn is maybe just about worth doing, but the ability to do it isn't anything to write home about and I'd rather take the free healing from open hand.
    Jump Jet: I feel that this shouldn't cost ki points - maybe make it so that it only costs ki points to extend it beyond one round, but trading 3 ki points for 1/600 of a 3rd-level spell slot is a little weak. For comparison, open hand grants you a persisted version of a 1st-level spell, which if 3.5 is to be believed is worth a 7th-level slot.
    Flame Jet: Failed save halves the damage? Also, creatures who are adjacent to you when you activate it, or any point during your movement? Also also, it still doesn't do enough to justify using an action and 3 ki points.

    Analyst
    Multiplexed True Strike: The ability to choose three targets is almost useless on its own. At best, it gives you advantage on splitting fire with two-weapon fighting, which is an odd thing to want to do. More likely, it just acts as a failsafe against marking the wrong target. Unfortunately, this means that it basically works as a feature which reduces the importance of tactical decision-making, which I would argue is a bad thing for a class feature to do from a fun-having perspective: you don't have much of a meaningful choice about who to mark if there are only 3 enemies in range, whereas with a non-multiplexed true strike, you would.
    Data-Driven Investments: This class feature is just plain weird and non-synergistic with the rest of the rest of the class. I can't imagine someone who signed up to play a technorogue thinking "Wow, I sure am glad that I can predict the stock market!"
    Heads-up Display: This is a little weird. You can cast divinations with 10-minute casting times as bonus actions now? Okay, fine, but here's what throws me a little: initially, you would think that you could use this to bonus-action true strike, and then attack with the benefit in the same round, right? Wrong, and it's because the wording of true strike says "on your next turn". The problem is that there's a significant chance of DMs and players flat-out not noticing that, and allowing someone to true strike and claim the benefit on the same turn.

    The other thing that worries me here is that apart from the first round, you can sneak attack every round of combat without having to spend resources or meaningful actions (why, what else were you doing with your bonus action?) facilitating that.
    Telepathic Divination: This, of course, is what multiplexed true strike is for. And it's quite powerful. Every single round after the first, you're providing yourself and two allies with advantage on the first attack roll they make, which means that you're sneak attacking every one of those rounds, and, well, it means your allies are more likely to hit. Oh, and also you can actually share the ability to detect magic or thoughts or whatever as well, which is really quite good. It might easily be too good. Certainly, it takes all the difficulty out of sneak attacking... and it's perfect in a party with a couple of extra rogues.

    Path of the Monster
    Flaws: Let's say your DM is really strict about enforcing these. You can either roll "You have bad dreams" or "You cannot use equipment." A bit of a difference there. Also, you're a barbarian: material possessions (like, say, swords) are kinda important to you.
    Mismatched Parts: As a barbarian, you're the least likely member of the party to need to roll hit dice outside of a short rest. This doesn't stack up to the ability to make an extra attack as a bonus action on every turn of your rage or resistance to everything but psychic during your rage. Bear in mind that you're taking a flaw for the privilege of getting to take this instead.
    Anguished Strength: Honestly, I prefer the struck-out version, but you could make it rage damage bonus on grapple/shove/overrun instead. This is competing with some pretty bad abilities at this level (I think wolf totem is probably the best, but none of them is amazing) so you might not want to let a barbarian blow all his hit dice on doing [level]d12 extra damage to a boss monster.
    Misunderstood Monstrosity: This is just weird, honestly. Also, it's competing with a decent save-or-suck and a divination ritual; could it maybe stand to be a little better?
    Electrical Conduit: Something something friendly sorcerer something something shocking grasp something something. Makes Anguished Strength even better, because you're never going to need to use your HD for actual self-healing. Might actually make mismatched parts viable too.

    School of Technomancy
    Homebrewery formatting sucks. One of your class features has a different name in the text from the table I think?

    My head's spinning just trying to read it, but AFAICT timeless body forces you to spend spell slots with no specification of how or when, and technical animation is dreadfully unspecific about what it can actually do.

    Wizard School of Magitech
    Magitech Invention: The gauntlet is basically just an odd cantrip, the armour basically obviates dexterity, the deresonator is frankly really bad, and the runescribed weapon and the pistol are absolutely insane. Oh, one martial weapon of my choice, and I'm now proficient with it? Sure, longbow. Oh, what's that, I can now make touch attacks from the other end of a room? Sure, why not. Same with the pistol: oh, all my touch spells now have a range of 120/300? That's fine by me!
    Innovative Casting: Buffing a spell's range now makes it not work with the runescribed weapon. If you buff a spell's range and wield the pistol, does it double the pistol range or the base spell range? If the latter, does that mean the range goes down if you use the pistol? Self spells becoming touch spells that you can't use on yourself is weird, especially because lightning bolt has a range of self. Speaking of lightning bolt, buffing its area is quite powerful - you end up with a line 110 ft long and 15 ft wide. What about a nice flaming sphere that's 15 feet diameter and burns anyone who steps within 15 feet of that? A wall of fire that's 11 feet thick?

    Echoing is simply borked. Regaining an 8th-level spell when you cast a 9th-level spell isn't okay. Worse, that spell can itself have echoing, letting you cast a 7th, cast an 8th recover a 7th, cast a 9th recover an 8th, cast a 7th, cast an 8th recover a 7th, and cast a 7th again. Of course, at lower levels, this "Only" allows for less egregious misuses, like casting 3 fireballs, 6 scorching rays and 10 burning hands (or maybe some spells which aren't all damaging fire spells). Of course, if you're feeling really silly, you can cast nothing but heightened echoing forceful magic missiles, which allows you to cast 1 9th, 2 8th, 4 7th, 6 6th, 9 5th, 12 4th, 15 3rd, 18 2nd and 22 1st. You find a use for knocking people back hundreds of feet.

    Forceful has multiple problems: "Effected" means "Created" or "Put into force"; you mean "Affected". More importantly, you can do some funky stuff with it, like create a fire wall which radiates fire towards an actual wall, trapping creatures who are between the two, and if they try to run through the fire to escape, it may very well just shove them back into the death zone. It's also-also not clear what affecting a creature actually means in this context - if I use vampiric touch, does that shove me and the target away from each other, or just them away from me? And what's the point of origin of a touch spell, anyway - it's listed as "Self"; does that mean I'm shoved away from myself? How does that work? I see a lot of DMs and players spending a lot of time they wanna be spending gaming on figuring this out.
    Arcane Analysis: Honestly, the ability to counter or dispel spells easily is probably too good, especially when echoing rewards casting multiple copies of the same spell. The ability to recognise any spell you can see being cast is also really useful for counterspells. Not only do you have more spells per day than anyone else, but you can also counter all their high-level spells out of your low-level slots without much issue.
    Arcane Armoury: Effects is misspelled in the armour. Magirifle makes you into a ridiculously-good sniper. Runescribed weapon gets a neat buff but none of the others is really worth a second look.

    Mech Pilot
    Your image makes it hard to read parts of this.
    Call Mech: I really assume that it's meant to be (int+level)*4, but as written it's int+(level*4). Either way, it increases your hit points from wizard hit points (3.5 per level) to that one pathfinder PrC that gets more hit points than a barbarian hit points (7.5 per level) This also makes you insanely single-attribute-dependent, and because you can use it twice per short rest, you can probably have it up most of the time. Especially with two modules, this is just too strong.
    Mechanical Modules: Hoo boy.
    Antimagic Metal: This is fine. Probably doesn't even need to be so strongly level-gated.
    Ballistic Armour: You probably already had one of the highest ACs in the party. Now, this just gives you a bit more of an edge.
    Cantrip Strike: Dealing 2d10 points of damage with fire bolt is probably one of the best uses of your action... except that you can do better, as will be discussed.
    Energy Barrier: You'll probably never use this unless you're certain what the save DC is.
    Enhanced Combat Maneuvers: I thought this would be something cool, but it's just extra attack. Good with rocket fists, though!
    Explosive Eject: Seeing as if you're using this, something has already gone horribly wrong, you probably don't want to take it. Using your reaction to deal 2d8 damage in an area isn't the worst use of your first-level slot, but you're also likely to hit allies.
    Jet Propulsion: Always-on flight is good enough that I'd take this as my 10th-level ability with no contest.
    Lightweight Servos: This is quite a powerful ability, but I wouldn't take it because I could be taking rocket fists and ballistic armour.
    Rocket Fists: I wanna point something out. The monk, at this level, does d4+dex damage with their fists, and gets one attack as an action and one as a bonus action, with a range of 5 feet. You deal d8+int damage with your fists, and get one attack as an action and one as a bonus action, with a range of 30 feet. The monk gets an extra attack at 5th level, and you're right up after them with one at 6th. The monk's unarmed strike only does as much damage as yours at 11th level, and yours is still better because it's ranged. Oh, and I almost forgot, you're also a full spellcaster. Oh, and you have more hit points than the monk. Is the monk's WIS+DEX higher than your INT+3? No? Congrats, you have a better AC than the monk.
    Titan Suit: The shoo-in victor for 14th-level choice. You now have more temporary hit points than most wizards have hit points. Just for show, your fists now deal more damage than the monk's again.
    Repair Machinery: If you wait until you're about to die, then suit up, you can use mending on yourself to restore your actual hit points, though you can't restore your temporary hit points. It's not an amazing ability, but that's fine, because your real 6th-level feature is extra attack.
    Resilient Mech: Just in case you didn't have enough hit points yet.
    Backup Mech: Hey, do you think that gaining 114 temporary hit points and a bunch of other neat stuff is the best use of my action? Because I think it's the best use of my action. There's no way that the fact that you have to spend actions in combat to make full use of this ability is in any way a real balancing factor, ignoring the fact that you can just get in a punch-up with the party druid to get a new mech if you really feel like abusing the feature.

    I wrote the above, of course, before realising that if you're in your second mech, you don't have a spare use of the feature, so you get a new one. This basically means that you can have a new mech for each new combat without needing any actions.

    Grammaton Cleric
    Wait, you're a cleric and also a monk? I know I wrote something which lets you be a cleric and a rogue, but at least it explains what exactly that means. Whatever, it looks like you're just a monk that's called a cleric for some reason.
    Gun Fu: This is weird because you lose your other monk weapons at third level - at second level, you can use dexterity for your quarterstaves, but at third, you're forced to use strength. You probably want to have a clause about gaining this tradition at 1st level, unlike other traditions.
    Guns Akimbo: You need to specify that you can reload the guns with no free hand, I think.
    Gun Jitsu: Probably fine, but you should probably append "For example, you can spend one ki point to perform a flurry of blows, then two more ki points to reload and fire a firearm instead of making two unarmed strikes" to the third ability.
    Bullet Ballet: I'd impose disadvantage on ranged attacks instead. 5e doesn't tend to do large flat bonuses to that extent.
    Suppress Emotions: All monks can dodge as a bonus action for 1 ki point at level 2 anyway.
    Perfect Aim: You should probably be having gun jitsu allow you to add the damage after you know you've hit, so getting advantage on the attack roll doesn't mesh well with that.
    One with the Gun: This is probably fine.

    Variant Multiclass: Rogue
    The worst. Absolutely, positively the worst.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    I would love some critique, and am totally about to critique everyone else too!

    Clockwork Warframe
    1) Augmented strength: This is fine, but honestly a little weird. You can wield versatile weapons in one hand as though you were wielding them in two hands, but you can't wield two-handed weapons in one hand, but you can wield two-handed weapons without the penalty for being small, which you might not be because it's not restricted to small creatures, meaning that a human with this ability is basically going to be wielding a warhammer or longsword because those are basically the only decent weapons for a creature with this ability.
    Gadgeteer's Tools: This is a neat ability, and honestly, I'm concerned that the combination of these two abilities might be better than, for example, getting to crit an extra time out of 20 - the above ability, after all, already increases your damage by 1 per attack, as opposed to by maybe 7 per 20 attacks. Then you get an important benefit for grapples and shoves, doubled carry cap, and then you get a whole other class feature! And it's not a bad one; two extra proficiencies, and expertise on anything machine-related. That's pretty good!
    2) Bond Breaker: This probably isn't meant to make it easier to move through your allies' spaces, but by god it does (are you going to argue that a dragonborn paladin isn't a "Physical obstruction"?). It's probably also better than half-proficiency on things you were never trying to be good at and the ability to jump a little further.
    4) Weaponised Exoskeleton: This gives you two options: one which regularly gives you, effectively, at least one extra attack, and one which is rarely usable but freaking awesome. Both are probably more useful than a +1 to AC. Technically nothing says you can't sweeping strike with a longbow and royally mess up everyone within 600 feet of you in a particular arc, though it's still pretty nasty if you're just wielding a melee reach weapon. Death from above is actually ridiculously powerful if you get a chance to use it - first, you deal a bunch of unavoidable damage to a creature (no, having to hit with one of the three attacks you'll have by next level doesn't count as "Avoidable"), then it needs to save or be knocked down and take yet another attack. So, for example, suppose your wizard friend decides to cast fly on you. You fly up 60 feet and shoot three longbow shots down at the enemies. Then you do it again. Then you fly up another 60 feet and take out your greatsword. Then, your wizard gets distracted by a nearby butterfly. You land on the enemy, make four greatsword attacks against them, and then hit them with 18d6 points of damage, and you didn't give up any of your actions to actually set up that attack. Or, you just get a chance to leap from a balcony onto someone for a free 10d6 points of damage and extra weapon attack? It just feels like a feature which will either do nothing or wreck encounters.
    Defensive Augmentation: Both of these are probably fine, except that I should point out that burst of speed allows you to Death from Above just by virtue of being able to jump high enough. So at this point, you can now jump, force a strength check against falling prone, make your full complement of attacks plus an extra one if you knocked the enemy prone, and deal an extra d6 damage for good measure.
    Stabilising Frame: Seems fine.
    Thanks for the feedback. I've made the following changes in response:

    1) 3rd level features now only give grapple bonuses, carrying capacity bonuses, and a QoL upgrade for small characters (no restriction on Heavy weapons), plus the two proficiencies. It's better than the champion's one, but that one's notoriously weak.

    2) Reworded the effect to specialize in ignoring things that would take a STR save to avoid getting entangled (web, plant growth, etc).

    3) Added "with a melee weapon" to sweeping strikes. I may have it either deal less damage or require a full action on its own (as opposed to replacing an attack). Removed the "prone and extra attack" part of leaping attack". Now it just pushes and transfers falling damage. And yes, it's supposed to synergize with the later feature. I love the "death from above" image, and it encourages people to use the terrain (and DMs to put terrain in there).

    I'll look at yours later today and give feedback.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Here's the promised feedback on the Variant Multiclass: Rogue:

    Initial impressions: I'm not sure how it fits the theme, really. While rogues are the most skilled, that may not have anything to do with technology. It certainly doesn't give me a visual of using tech in any way.

    It's also hellaciously complicated (with different level breaks by base class), and the benefits (and drawbacks) vary incredibly widely by base class.

    And it shatters some of the classes thematically--A paladin with out an Oath isn't a paladin. A cleric without a Domain is missing most of what makes them different.

    Specific features

    Arcane Trickery
    Paladins don't get spell-casting until level 2, and don't get oath spells till level 3. So giving them Arcane Trickery at level 1 is rather meaningless. There are also rangers who get bonus spells (the XGtE archetypes).
    Clerics: These do very little to complement the play-style of anyone who wasn't going to go Trickery (and in fact overlap significantly with the Trickery Domain spells). Cost: Enormous/Moderate. Benefit: Minimal.
    Paladins: Also very little benefit, at large costs (including enormous thematic costs).
    Warlocks: mixed, much more benefits here (due to the nature of the warlock's bonus spells)

    Bonus Skill
    This is weak for a starting feature. Most starting features (especially those at level 3) provide a major combat benefit. This...is an extra skill, proficient but not expertise.

    Thieves' Cant
    Pure ribbon.

    Sneak Attack
    Useless for standard barbarians, clerics, most fighters, paladins, sorcerers, and wizards (not using finesse weapons as a general rule). 1d6 / 3 levels is functionally meaningless.

    Uncanny Dodge
    A good feature that works for most classes. Comes on line real late for sorcerers and paladins though.

    Reliable talent
    Only monks and rangers have any hope of ever seeing this, despite how good it is. Clerics...level 17, not so much At that level, they're normally getting

    Knowledge: Massive benefit for RP-centric campaigns that can't be replicated by any other feature.
    Life: auto-maximized healing spells.
    Light: impose disadvantage on saves vs fire or radiant damage spells.
    Nature: channel divinity becomes a pseudo dominate for beasts and plants
    Tempest: perpetual flying speed outside
    Trickery: Four duplicates from channel divinity
    War: resistance to non-magical bludgeoning/piercing/slashing (which is to most of the MM, to be honest).

    Blindsense
    Replacing a paladin's capstone with this is a sad, sad thing. Or a fighter's capstone. Only the ones that get it at 14 will find it meaningful at all.

    Final thoughts
    Not impressed. The benefits are super uneven. Sorry if I seem harsh, but I'm not sure how to salvage this. It would benefit from being a focused archetype for a single base class (maybe a barbarian who gets roguish features, keying off rage to do DEX-focused things instead of brute force? Or a ranger?)
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    I would love some critique, and am totally about to critique everyone else too!

    College of Optics
    Honestly, the whole thing gets one piece of critique: it seems pretty weak. For example, it lets you use every single use of bardic inspiration a 15th-level 20-CHA 20-DEX bard owns in order to deal 1d10+2d12+5 points of damage to each of three creatures. That's a fireball, or rather, that's not even a fireball, because a fireball does more damage than that and if it misses, it still actually does some of that damage. Alternatively, you can "Only" use two of your bardic inspirations to... do very slightly more damage than a fighter will do by just attacking with a longbow normally. Honestly, I'd rather just spend my bardic inspiration to do the thing that bardic inspiration does.
    I think I'll swap the +Dex to damage for +Cha on the laser array, and move Focusing Lens to a smite-style mechanic using spell slots instead of BI, then leave splitting lens as BI.

    As for Variant Multiclass Rogue, I really like this as a thing, but I don't feel like 5e Rogues have as strong a "technology" identity as in older editions. They lost all of their trap-specific or lock-specific features, leaving them with Thieves' Tools and the odd subclass feature (which I agree with your decision to leave Variant Multiclass Rogue at core features only). This would have been better for Something Borrowed.

    Quote Originally Posted by sengmeng View Post
    I will take all the help I can get. I can't really offer much in return except reactions to fluff as I know just enough about 5e to keep my entry from being gibberish.
    In general, the wording on many features is difficult to follow. When writing a feature out, look for similar features (since a lot of your subclass involves extending monk features to also apply to guns, you can look at monk, but for bonus damage, you can look at Rage, Sneak Attack, Divine Smite, and Hunter Ranger's Giant Slayer, for extra attacks you can look at baseline two-weapon fighting, Monk's Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows, Fighter's Action Surge, and Berserker's Frenzy, etc.). You don't have to use the same mechanics (in fact I recommend adjusting them to fit your intent), but reading those similar-concept-space features will help with clarity.

    You also might want to consider the action economy of 5e. Normally, number of attacks is fairly strictly bound. Allowing extra attacks does exist in core 5e, but typically they A: are part of some non-attacking option (can make a melee attack when you cast a cantrip/spell, can make an attack when you command your beast to attack, and/or B: use up your bonus action for that round. Expending resources allows you to stretch these rules more. I gave more detail in Guns Akimbo and One With the Gun below. I'm not an expert on action economy but if you search around there's some guides (mostly about breaking it, but those are helpful too as they tell you the sorts of things you should not give your class to prevent breaking), or maybe someone else here can give a more detailed breakdown.

    • Gun Fu: As a general rule, don't take away class features in a subclass. Allowing Grammaton Clerics to keep their normal monk weapons isn't going to break the subclass, and all their features improving guns means they'll want to be using them anyway. The damage specifications of guns-as-blunt-instruments is nice, but monks can use Martial Arts in place of normal weapon dice anyway, meaning that until level 11 I only care about the versatile 1d8 damage and after 11 it's all the same.
    • Guns Akimbo: This is both way too strong assuming reliable advantage (players will find a way) and also oddly worded for a 5e feature. Something more like "When you take the Attack action and are wielding a pistol in each hand, you can make an extra attack with a pistol, but this attack is at Disadvantage. You can make attacks with pistols held in either hand interchangeably." would be more in the normal design of 5e. Also, pursuant to the general rule above, this should probably just be a feature gained at 6 instead of replacing Deflect Arrows (you can give two features at 6).
    • Gun Jitsu (part 1):Balanced and fitting. No further comment on this.
    • Gun Jitsu (part 2):Needs clearer wording. Do you spend the ki before each attack? As a bonus action modifying all attacks that round? As a part of rolling damage, like Divine Smite? The first is probably too expensive to be worth using normally (especially in light of part 3), the second would be an exact duplicate of a Way of the Kensei feature, and the third would be somewhere in between "very expensive" and "a good way to dump excess Ki without using actions".
    • Gun Jitsu (part 3):Spending Ki to reload is excessive, given that you already are giving up an attack. And you can already make firearm attacks for both of your normal attacks on your turn (once you get Extra Attack), so this feature only applies to unarmed strikes gained as bonus actions or made as opportunity attacks. I would rewrite it as a specific bonus action this subclass gets instead, and attach an appropriate cost. Something like "When you take the Attack action on your turn to attack with a monk weapon or unarmed strike, you can spend 1 ki point to make a firearm attack as a bonus action." Adjust the cost and number of bonus action attacks according to your intent. Look at Flurry of Blows and Martial Arts for wording. This is also very strong with the current version of Guns Akimbo (allowing for 3 ki points 8 firearm attacks at level 5 and up).
    • Bullet Ballet:Bounded accuracy and AC are essential components of 5e balance. This feature allows a monk with 18 Dex and 16 Wis (roughly what I would expect when the feature is gained) to push their AC to 21 every turn with an easily-met condition. 21 is the normal maximum AC for a fighter without magic items. It needs to be dialed back or made more difficult to trigger (possibly requiring an action type or Ki point expenditure to limit its per-combat usage). Alternately, you could replace it with an active defense or Deflect Arrows improvement.
    • Suppress Emotions: Monks already get bonus action dodge at level 2 for 1 ki. You need a new feature here. You could do a self-targetted Dispel Magic, a much weaker version of Mind Blank (most of its power is in the duration and the wish clause, so if you gut both of those you can probably drop to something 5th or 6th level equivalent), or something that negates Advantage and Disadvantage temporarily to fit the emotions theme.
    • 17th level features:Tradition calls for a name for this group of multiple-choice features in addition to names for each option.
    • Perfect Aim: Adding the extra ways to get advantage is too much. As I noted in Guns Akimbo, if you strongly incentivise Advantage, players will find ways to gain it, and that is 10 times as true at level 17 (in one more level, Monks can get Greater Invisibility on themselves, not to mention all the spells their party will have access to). I would instead improve the critical hits themselves in a small way, regardless of how they were triggered, and remove both of the free advantage effects from this feature. I do like the new crit condition.
    • One With the Gun: Overcoming damage as if magical should have gone back at level 6 (when monks get it for unarmed attacks) if you want to put it in the subclass; leaving it out is also okay (they can still get magical guns the old-fashioned way, and probably have by level 17). Free Actions aren't a thing in 5e (just Action and Bonus Action), but you can say that "successful attacks with a firearm as a blunt instrument allow you to reload or fire that firearm without taking an action" or something similar. The free shot is very strong (effectively doubling the number of attacks you can make against an adjacent target), the free reload is not. I'm not sure what you mean by always gaining the martial arts bonus damage. Functionally at level 17 that would mean doubling all weapon dice, since baseline monk allows you to substitute martial arts damage for normal weapon damage when using a monk weapon (which all firearms are, per Gun Fu). Unless you meant you can use Martial Arts in place of normal firearm damage, which is redundant. Stunning Strike with firearms is a nice boost though, and gives this ranged monk back a normally melee-only feature. This feature is all over the place with its bonuses. I would pick one of the things it does and refine it while dropping the others; you can the dropped features into more options for level 17 if you want to keep them on the subclass.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    As far as the connection to the theme goes: I've always liked the idea of the rogue as a specialist. Their proficiency with thieves tools also means that they are activating and/or deactivating some of the most complicated technology that exists in a D&D setting. Given that I'd really rather not have mechs trampling things and firing machineguns or whatever, rogues are basically the most tech-oriented thing you're gonna get.

    Don't know why I put trickery at level 1 for paladins. Fix'd.

    Bonus skill I should probably give another one of, and then we can shove SA earlier and give some expertise later.

    Wow, I totally missed that sneak attack had to be with a finesse or ranged weapon. That sorta blows. OTOH, there's nothing stopping you from fighting rapier-and-shield or even whip-and-shield and still using the whip as a strength weapon, while also claiming sneak attack. Essentially, you are losing out on some damage compared to if you were using a longsword (a whole two points of it) while also getting reach and one of your attacks per round does 1d6/3 levels extra damage. I guess I oughta make it a little bit more damage, but I don't really want people getting full-progression SA.

    As far as casters and SA are concerned, I'm figuring that true strike and a crossbow will give them a decent chance to land an SA.

    I've messed around with cleric a little bit to change when most things come online and give it a channel divinity option, and make it suck less at level 17.

    I've also given some examples of how to roleplay, and mechanically play, some of the VMC rogue combinations, which will probably help.

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    As far as the connection to the theme goes: I've always liked the idea of the rogue as a specialist. Their proficiency with thieves tools also means that they are activating and/or deactivating some of the most complicated technology that exists in a D&D setting. Given that I'd really rather not have mechs trampling things and firing machineguns or whatever, rogues are basically the most tech-oriented thing you're gonna get.

    Don't know why I put trickery at level 1 for paladins. Fix'd.

    Bonus skill I should probably give another one of, and then we can shove SA earlier and give some expertise later.

    Wow, I totally missed that sneak attack had to be with a finesse or ranged weapon. That sorta blows. OTOH, there's nothing stopping you from fighting rapier-and-shield or even whip-and-shield and still using the whip as a strength weapon, while also claiming sneak attack. Essentially, you are losing out on some damage compared to if you were using a longsword (a whole two points of it) while also getting reach and one of your attacks per round does 1d6/3 levels extra damage. I guess I oughta make it a little bit more damage, but I don't really want people getting full-progression SA.

    As far as casters and SA are concerned, I'm figuring that true strike and a crossbow will give them a decent chance to land an SA.

    I've messed around with cleric a little bit to change when most things come online and give it a channel divinity option, and make it suck less at level 17.

    I've also given some examples of how to roleplay, and mechanically play, some of the VMC rogue combinations, which will probably help.
    Paladin should also receive 2 Channel Divinity options per subclass, received at level 3.

    EDIT: You might want to add a note to Marauder that stacking Expertise on Athletics with Rage makes you hands-down the best user of Shove and Grapple.
    Last edited by MoleMage; 2018-06-12 at 01:02 PM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Ok, I've adjusted the Grammaton Cleric a bit more. I guess he does what he's supposed to: seamlessly switch between firing and pistol whipping while dodging incoming fire.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Paladin VMC rogue can now use sacred assassination, and gets an extra channel ability. Also done tactics write-ups for hedge witch (drd/Vrog), thug (fgt/Vrog), ninja (mnk/Vrog), blackguard (pal/Vrog), and slayer (rgr/Vrog).

    This is mostly just roleplay and tactics advice, but it does provide a few rules clarifications/rulings, namely:

    Hedge Witch: Natural weapons which are based on dexterity are finesse weapons so you can sneak attack with them.
    Thug (and some others): You can wield a 1-handed weapon in two hands, which doesn't do anything useful on its own. Great weapon fighting style does let you re-roll sneak attack dice.
    Ninja: Because sneak attack is per turn, not per round, you can sneak attack on your turn, sneak attack via deflect arrows as a reaction, and then sneak attack the turn after.
    Blackguard: There's now a list of twelve tenetis, of which you can choose any five.
    Slayer: That thing about attacking from hiding giving advantage? Yeah, that's actually a rule now, not a "DM might let you if you ask nicely."

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    The School of Magitech has been updated.
    Changelog:
    -Clarified that the three weaponlike Magitech Inventions are in fact magic weapons.
    -Added a level restriction to Arcane De-Resonator for the Concentration effect.
    -Changed Channel Gauntlet to be 1d8 + push by default.
    -Made Runescribed Weapon clearer on how it works. You cast target spells through the weapon, is the main thing. It works for ranged weapons, and for touch attacks. Yes, giving Longbows was intentional. I just word'd poorly the first time.
    -Innovative Casting's Area now is only 5 feet and makes more sense. Forceful is more clear on how it works.
    -Echoing doesn't make Wizards spellcasting gods now. Only works for 1st and 2nd level spells, and can only be used INT MOD times per day
    -Arcane Armor's upgrade now uses normal timing instead of an Action, so you can cast Shield more. I think that's actually the only application, but hey, it's there. It also gets a free 2nd-level spell instead of requiring a spell slot. MoleMage was right in that it only offered a benefit every other day.
    -Channel Gauntlet's upgrade is updated to reflect its baseline changes.
    -Magipistol's upgrade felt a little weak, only getting some damage type options, so I made it +1.

    As an explanation/FAQ of some of the features, here's theses. You don't need to read these to understand the class or its motivations, but if you have a specific complaint, question, or inquiry, it will probably be in this feature-by-feature breakdown:

    Spoiler: Magitech Inventions
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    Arcane Armor: The 'defense' option. Since it provides a calculation for your AC instead of a flat bonus, use the full calculation. That is to say, your AC is 11+INT in the armor. No Dex. For reference on the 'calculation' idea, look at Barb and Monk Unarmored Defenses, which don't stack, because they're both calculations. I'm strongly considering converting this from 11+Int to an always-on Mage Armor spell or similar.
    Arcane De-Resonator: A really powerful anti-mage tool. But its balanced by effecting all spells, not just enemy. So if you shut down Conjuration to keep your enemy from Dimension Dooring away, you're also stuck there.
    Channel Gauntlet: Magic Iron Man. That is all.
    Magipistol: This arguably the most powerful Invention, as it is a straight upgrade to literally every ranged spell attack on the Wizard list, if not on all lists. I don't know about EE or XGtE spells; I use Wizards' own design philosophy of "balance against PHB, not all books." In addition to a direct upgrade, it also offers a cantrip made with the only unresisted damage type in the game (I know there's exceptions.)
    Runescribed Weapon: I (obviously) had a hard time articulating in 5e's rules-syntax the idea of "cast spells through the weapon." It might still be unclear. Granting Wizards one proficiency with a weapon isn't a huge deal, and they can only cast spells through it INT MOD times per day. My only concern is that it does out-range the gun with Longbows, but the gun isn't limited, so I think that's on balance. Its bonus damage does scale harder than a Paladin, but it scales significantly worse when you compare what else you could do with the spell slot. For comparison, Chromatic Orb is 3d8. With a Runescribed Longbow, you do the same, but use Dex, which is probably worse than your Int. Jump to 3rd level and compare to Fireball, where it has a lower minimum, same maximum, lower average, and only effects one creature. You can burst one creature easily, but the opportunity cost can be pretty high.


    Spoiler: Innovative Casting
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    Innovative Casting: One of the big problems with WotC's attempts at "alter spell formula" wizards I think is they usually try to make that happen as you cast the spell, which doesn't really make sense from a lore-perspective, considering how complex and precise arcane magic is supposed to be. It made Wizards too situationally powerful, being to target a creature's weak saves or damage types on the fly. Making the change only available when you prep spells circumvents this.
    Range Innovation: Can cause weird interactions, I suppose. Mostly pretty straightforward. Making Self spells not-self is a teamwork boost, and if you want to cast a spell on yourself, don't Innovate it. Jormungand offered the example of Lightning Bolt getting weird, but the solution is simple: Don't Innovate Lightning Bolt with range. Or if you do, the origin is now on a creature you touch, and the line starts from them. You're already hiding behind your Fighter, right?
    Area Innovation: Bigger spells, plain and simple. Yes, it makes Lightning Bolt wider. I think that's cool. Makes the worse-Fireball somewhat better.
    Type Innovation: I've gone back and forth a lot on whether or not to alter the save based on damage type. What makes that more difficult is that while in general, the damage types in 5e correspond to the listed saves, there's a bit of variation there; some Cold effects are Dex, some Fire effects are Con, and Thunder is Strength sometimes. But I think it just makes more sense from a fiction perspective to do it this way. Imagine making a Con save to resist Lightning from a type-changed Thunderwave. It doesn't feel right. And because you Innovate durinjg spell prep, you can't target a monster's weak save. Just like all spell prep, you have to guess what creatures you'll be up against and which spells and saves are best for that situation.
    Echoing Innovation: Ooooh boy I don't know what I was thinking on the first pass of this feature. That would be unreasonable as a 20-th level feature, let alone 6th! The thematic idea is you alter spells to be more 'efficient', so you have more 'magical energy/stamina' with which to cast spells. I think the new version is much better. Still strong, but better. In either case though, remember that you can only Innovate 1/2 INT MOD spells, so to get the most out of Echoing, you have to Innovate a spell you plan on using a lot.
    Forceful Innovation: Just push people, is the idea. Jormangand brought up the idea of it being funky, for example, using it on Wall of Fire to trap people. Sure! Finding creative uses for these features is exactly what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to Innovate. Not just the spells, but the way you use the spells as a result of the changes. My favorite idea for this is to use Hold Person to blast people away and then paralyze them. Pretty much makes you a Jedi. Or maybe more appropriately, a Sith.
    Innovation Drawback: This one can be a little intense for duration spells, but even if you fail you don't have to lose the spell; you can choose to take damage isntead. As much I just defended all of my features as "they're not as powerful as you think I swear", I do recognize that Innovative Casting is powerful, and this is the limiter for that. DC 10 is the baseline Concentration Save, and most spells you'd want to Innovate are Instantaneous, so it's only one save.


    Spoiler: Arcane Analysis
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    Arcane Analysis: This combo's less ludicrously with Echoing Innovation now. If you're a Wizard that understand magic enough to alter and innovate on it, it sort of makes sense to me that you can see the structural weaknesses in other people's spells and exploit them. Hence the Proficiency in Counterspel/Dispel


    Spoiler: Arcane Arsenal
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    Arcane Armor Upgrade: I considered just making them a walking tank by upping the AC, but a feature that is just "you number harder than you did before" isn't really interesting or fun. So I thought, "If you're magically powering the armor to get your AC bonus, then surely it can store magic, right?". And from there, spell storing was the next natural step. But it's armor, so it's also only natural that it's only a spell that targets you or originates with you.
    Arcane De-Resonator Upgrade: Like its lesser counterpart, the De-Resonator upgrade can completely shutdown some casters, but just as before, the device interferes with allied spellcasting, so you have to really communicate with your team. Remember that healing spells are Evocation, so you can't shut down the BBEG's Chain Lightning's without slowing party healing!
    Channel Gauntlet Upgrade: Iron Man harder. It's a smaller upgrade compared to others, as creatures are rarely in a line, but the range increase is nice. Might make it +1.
    Magipistol Upgrade: Just a classic elemental touch. As I said in the changelog, I felt it was too weak so I made it 5% better.
    Magirifle Upgrade: Be literal spell sniper! Honestly, I might boost the range even further, because the 60-ft limitation is a huge debuff when you consider that most combats take place in maybe a 120ft area, but the real fighting is even closer. Still, being able to chip away at opponents over long range can make your combat much easier for your allies.
    Runescribed Weapon Upgrade: The one that gets the most amount of changes. Here's why: If you've opted for a melee Runescribed Weapon, you're, well, in melee, maybe using Strength which is traditionally a poor Wiz stat. But in melee, you have to survive, and thus, defense. Extra damage is the main feature here in my mind. It applies all the time, not just when you Smite or cast with it. The Dispel feature is oddly specific, and I'll admit, is very much inspired by Matthew Mercer's Magician's Judge weapon in Critical Role campaign 2. I think it's so cool! And it only work in this way against one creature, not a general effect, and you have to hit, so it's not as universally useful as it might seem.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    @Ivellius, feedback on the Circle of Progress

    General
    If you're stuck with CR 1 (max) creatures, but all your abilities depend on being in wild shape form...that's not going to scale well. Maybe give some sort of scaling?

    2nd level: Transformed Shape
    A few comments:
    * You don't make death saving throws in wild-shape form because hitting 0 dumps you out of form immediately. So proficiency with them while in wild-shape form (Reinforced body) doesn't mean much.
    * A single weapon attack isn't much. That's averaging at best 1d10 + 4 ~ 10 DPR. The average DPR for CR 1 creatures is 13, with a standard deviation of 4.4. So you're at best 1 standard deviation below the norm. And at 8th level, your fighter buddy is doing 2d6+5 x 2, day in and day out, more than double yours. Instead, maybe your weapon increases the dice rolled for the attacks by one die? Or something like that?

    6th level: Armament Reshaping
    * A wolf (a decent form you can have at that level) has a +1 natural armor bonus. So if instead you have studded leather you gain a net +1 AC (to a grand total of 14). +2 total if you take reinforced body. That's quite weak, especially if you're limited to the base druid's forms.

    10th level: Reconstructed Shape
    * Since the benefits are so weak, I'd remove the "alternatively" clause and say that they get all the level 2 features and one of the level 10 features.
    * Wording (adrenal injection): "choose to expend 1 Hit Die" to do what? Add a phrase "to heal yourself"

    14th level: Forcefield Projection
    * This is fine, although it needs a recharge mechanic. Once ever? Once per use of wild shape? Once per long/short rest?
    Last edited by PhoenixPhyre; 2018-06-14 at 01:39 PM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    @Ivellius, feedback on the Circle of Progress
    Thanks for the feedback. Quick and hit a few things I need to change.

    Wasn't thinking at all about not making death saves while shaped. Changing that quite quickly and buffing the other features correspondingly. With the new weapon incorporation, I can probably add language about it working with Multiattack as part of the intention, but making it stronger would make it probably too good for the level you get it. It does, for example, let you morph a camel and upgrade your damage to 1d10+3 rather than 1d4. Part of the idea, though, is that no matter what you morph you always can have something (so recon frog with a weapon, for instance), and Armament Reshaping helps it scale some thanks to incorporating magical abilities.

    Having said all of that, it might just need some restructuring within the first three class benefits as a group. I think another second-level feature it should have is one removing the prohibition on metal armors, given the fluff. Heavy armor proficiency is probably too much, but better armor would be a useful boost to Armament Reshaping as well.

    For bookkeeping reasons, I think buffing Reconstructed Shape (and/or Transformed Shape) rather than dumping all of it onto a character makes more sense. For now, I've changed the language on Reconstructed Shape to just add one of its bonuses to Transformed Shape. I think the language on Adrenal Injection is sufficient but added "to regain health." Similarly, Forcefield Projection is once per Wild Shape (changed the wording very slightly).

    Even with changes, I think it's probably a bit short of where it could be. Unfortunately, given the concept of "Transformers Wild Shape," it will always be compared to the Moon Druid, which is probably too good for what it does.
    Last edited by Ivellius; 2018-06-14 at 03:19 PM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Voting thread is UP! Submissions may not be edited further at this time (technically as of midnight last night).

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    Daemon

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    Voting thread is UP! Submissions may not be edited further at this time (technically as of midnight last night).

    Voting Link
    NOte: all the build links in the voting thread seem to go to the same post (my sub-class).
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    NOte: all the build links in the voting thread seem to go to the same post (my sub-class).
    Caught that as soon as I linked it here and it has been fixed.
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