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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    Caught that as soon as I linked it here and it has been fixed.
    I must have opened it right as you were fixing it. All good. I'm in the process of compiling my votes.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Last day for voting! I will probably be asleep when the official end time comes around but come the morning I'm tallying up the votes (and double checking my tallies).
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    Votes are tallied, and winners declared!

    I forgot to mention it in the first post, but I modeled the voting values off of previous contests, so a 1st place vote was worth 3 points, a 2nd worth 2, and a 3rd worth 1. I think most of you probably guessed as much but I wanted to be clear here how these totals were reached.

    In 3rd place, we have the Martial Archetype for fighters, the Clockwork Warframe! Whether you be a gnome, a dwarf, or a particularly technologically minded half-orc, put on your power armor and wrestle something large.

    In 2nd place, we have the Bardic College, the College of Optics! For when you really need to put on a laser rock show, and also for when you need to laser some bad guys. Or just look at things far away.

    And our winner of the first forum subclass contest, the Druid Circle of Progress! Turn into a cyborg wolf! Incorporate your magic weapons and armor into wild shape forms! Eschew traditional lore expectations by embracing the wild and the artificial at the same time! Wear metal armor!

    Congrats to Ivellius!

    Thanks to everyone who submitted entries for this contest. We had a strong first turnout and I hope we can keep up momentum moving forward. Our next theme, with two votes (I will provide a shorter list for the next voting thread to hopefully get more consensus) is It Came From Beyond! Submission thread will go up in a few minutes after I edit the discussion thread's first post and write a new intro for the new theme.
    Votes are tallied.

    For those of you with new idea submissions, they have been edited into the first post with more contest-appropriate names (IE: something that sounds like a bad movie tagline). The only one I was unclear on was Gryphonus's suggestion Points for Everybody, which I took a stab in the dark at what was meant for. Some of these ideas could probably be folded together (Fate and Luck could be one theme, and New Mechanics/Alternate Mechanics could also be one theme), but I've left them separate for now. If you have a different name suggestion or I interpreted your suggestion wrong, let me know.

    For the next voting thread, I will roll randomly from the list of total suggestions three times (five times if we get at least 10 entries this round), and we will vote on the next theme from that smaller list. If you have new suggestions, please present them in the chat thread here and I'll add them to the list.

    Oh, and the new contest is up. The winner with two votes was It Came From Beyond, the theme of aliens, space, and Outer Realms. Link's on the first post, and also right here.
    Last edited by MoleMage; 2018-07-02 at 04:53 PM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Thanks to all the voters who thought being a Transformer would be cool. Given that the new theme was also the one for which I voted, I'll have to think of something to enter.

    Blackbando, you are quite on top of things. Minor suggestion on your patron: I would add a sentence on Riftwalk about the teleportation not provoking opportunity attacks. Yes, teleportation generally doesn't / should be assumed, but I think 5e usually spells that out explicitly.

    I will also confess that I too have used League of Legends characters to make subclasses after. Most of them have been warlock patrons--I currently have a Warlock using a "Leviathan" patron based on Nautilus.
    Last edited by Ivellius; 2018-07-03 at 12:33 AM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    A question re: the rules before I throw my hat in the ring for Contest II:

    I can't have the submission posted anywhere else, does that mean the subclass can't have its own thread here and can only exist in the contest thread?
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanatos 51-50 View Post
    A question re: the rules before I throw my hat in the ring for Contest II:

    I can't have the submission posted anywhere else, does that mean the subclass can't have its own thread here and can only exist in the contest thread?
    As of now, yes. I know that for some contests a separate thread on the forums for your entry is the norm, but subclasses were small enough that I thought containing them to one thread would be alright.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Blackbando, you are quite on top of things. Minor suggestion on your patron: I would add a sentence on Riftwalk about the teleportation not provoking opportunity attacks. Yes, teleportation generally doesn't / should be assumed, but I think 5e usually spells that out explicitly.
    Ah, excellent point. I'm not entirely sure if it's spelled out explicitly, but, certainly no harm in adding a few words to clarify. I've made the suggested edit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    I will also confess that I too have used League of Legends characters to make subclasses after. Most of them have been warlock patrons--I currently have a Warlock using a "Leviathan" patron based on Nautilus.
    Pop culture in general (mainly videogames) is where I get the inspiration for most of my content, and for some reason, League of Legends pops up a lot. I don't even play the game anymore, but yet it always has concepts and mechanics that seem fun to use in D&D, for me.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Obviously, VMC warlock would fit well for this contest, and I'm very tempted to do it.

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    I might be getting an idea, too. I don't know if it'll turn out any good though...
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbando View Post
    Pop culture in general (mainly videogames) is where I get the inspiration for most of my content, and for some reason, League of Legends pops up a lot. I don't even play the game anymore, but yet it always has concepts and mechanics that seem fun to use in D&D, for me.
    In my opinion, LoL works really well for inspiration here because you get 4-5 abilities that are all generally pretty distinct as well as thematic, and so you have some easy cohesion built right in. They're also often simple enough that you can implement them in 5e without too much trouble.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja_Prawn View Post
    I might be getting an idea, too. I don't know if it'll turn out any good though...
    While this might be of little comfort, I think your Analyst was one of the best-balanced and probably most usable of anything anyone produced in the last contest. I didn't vote for it primarily because I didn't feel it quite hit the theme as well as some others, and it also seemed to require a little less design work than others, considering part of it was a 1/3 caster. That is, a lot of the option's strength is derived from spells so the unique features are somewhat easier to design (in my opinion). Having said that, in terms of creating an Arcane Trickster analogue centered on True Strike like the AT centers on Mage Hand? It was really fantastic. If someone wanted "divination rogue" I'd be all for them using that.

    So all of that to say: if you're getting an idea, I'm sure you can execute on it quite well.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    As of now, yes. I know that for some contests a separate thread on the forums for your entry is the norm, but subclasses were small enough that I thought containing them to one thread would be alright.
    Fair enough, I guess.
    Now, I'm not building it specifically for this contest, but I am in the middle of making a base class for one of my friends, anyway (The Witch, but nothing at all like the 3.x/Pathfinder Witch). I'm probably not going to be using it for the contest (The current idea is a Barbarian), but would it be allowable to use it if I changed my mind?
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    If the Base class is posted somewhere we can get at it and was not made specifically for this contest it's fine. It should be a complete base class first though.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Is this ongoing? I'm going to post something soon.

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    New contest just went up yesterday and it will stay open for four weeks, so post away! There's a link in the first post of this thread.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Well, I think I've got something coherent enough to post now. It's very much shot from the hip though; I'm not particularly confident about the balance. Some feedback would be appreciated!
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja_Prawn View Post
    Well, I think I've got something coherent enough to post now. It's very much shot from the hip though; I'm not particularly confident about the balance. Some feedback would be appreciated!
    I feel as though Reflect Magic might be too good for only 1 sorcery point, as you're both casting a spell that's potentially very powerful (such as fireball) without a slot, and as a reaction. Maybe a number of sorc points equal to the spell level, ala Twinned Spell?
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja_Prawn View Post
    Well, I think I've got something coherent enough to post now. It's very much shot from the hip though; I'm not particularly confident about the balance. Some feedback would be appreciated!
    I really like the flavor of this--it's quite unique.

    Mimic Trait is interesting. I feel like there's probably a way to make it overpowered--the best thing I can think of is something like semi-permanent energy resistance off a friendly tiefling or dragonborn, but neither of those are all that out of line. Making it humanoid only and distance-restricted gets around a lot of the potential abuse cases, and it does have some interesting utility. Overall, I really like this.

    I agree that Reflect Magic seems pretty strong for its cost. Scaling on spell level makes sense, but that would be pretty expensive. I think you also need some clarifying language about it: for example, does it reflect the entire spell? As written, a Fireball might seem to re-explode on the original caster, or it might just be that you reflect a single gout onto the caster. I like the central idea but it is a little half-baked. Perhaps even just adapting the Monk's Deflect Missiles (so triggering on a missed spell attack?) would feel better here.

    Copycat is also an interesting feature, but getting an extra 9th-level spell (best case here and only 17+) is just generally forbidden. I'm not sure if I like a "limit to 5th-level or lower spells" as the best solution, but it's the main one that occurs to me. It's still probably fine at that point and provides an interesting way to, for instance, duplicate a cleric's Channel Divinity or paladin's Divine Smite off an attack. Question: how would the other humanoid's Extra Attack work with this feature? As written, I don't think you'd get extra attacks, but giving them would make sense. Long rest refresh is good here, I think.

    Perfect Duplicate is good and flavorful. Maybe even add Alter Self? I don't think any of these at this level are game-breaking.

    I might think about some additional way to spend sorcery points on this option, though that's not necessary by any means. (I pretty much always design Sorcerer options with two ways to spend, though the class itself can spend them easily enough.)
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    Submitted a Monk subclass based on a hybrid of Talonflame from Pokémon and the Pegasus Knights from Fire Emblem. I am content with the flavor, but I have a nagging feeling that it's horrendously overpowered. My main concerns are:

    ~way the hell too much synergy with a 3 level Assassin Rogue dip
    ~should Brave Bird be capped to 5 dice, like smites, rather than 10 dice, like Quivering Palm? I went with the higher number because I felt like the recoil damage should allow for some high risk-high reward plays without breaking balance TOO much
    ~should Brave Bird have a higher Ki cost? It's 3 ki and 22 damage to self in return for +45 damage on one attack. Quivering Palm is 3 ki for 55 damage and a chance of an instakill, but that damage is instead of an action instead of on top of your action. Additionally, QP has a turn delay while BB takes place immediately, and QP is a capstone feature while BB is not.
    ~should Gale Force be included at all? I would really like it to be, as I like the mechanic and flavor a lot, but I worry it's a)busted and b)stepping on the Fighter's toes, as it's quite similar to Action Surge.
    ~if Gale Force is fine, should it have a higher or lower ki cost?

    White room dpr for Assassin 3/Tempest 17 against surprised foe:

    Turn 1:
    -Spend 1 ki point to activate Gale Wings
    -As a bonus action, activate Skystepper (unless you already can fly)
    -You can fly 110 feet if you are a medium creature without a fly speed. If you are an aarakocra, you can fly 300 feet. It's not unlikely that you can arrange to fly 100 feet straight towards an enemy.
    -Spear attack (x2) + Brave Bird + Sneak Attack + Gale Wings = 26d8 + 4d6 + 10 damage (141 average). Yikes. This will also almost certainly proc Galeforce, allowing you to make 2 more spear attacks and 2 bonus action attacks from Flurry, plus sneak attack and maybe even some extra brave bird damage if you have space to charge again.

    Clearly, that's a LOT of damage, but it requires a surprise round to be set up and costs you 11 ki points (if you want to use Gale Wings, 2 Brave Birds, and a flurry), 45 average recoil damage from the crit brave bird on turn one, and a handful more recoil from the second brave bird on turn 2. I have to wonder how the dpr compares to a Sorcadin dropping Quickened SCAG cantrips and unloading high level smites - I feel like the sorcadin might actually outpace the bird monk, but he's using long rest resources instead of ki points and health.

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    I agree that Reflect Magic seems pretty strong for its cost.
    You're probably right. I've introduced scaling to Reflect Magic and made it so you can't cast spells for free with Copycat. And clarified how reflect works with AoE spells.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja_Prawn View Post
    You're probably right. I've introduced scaling to Reflect Magic and made it so you can't cast spells for free with Copycat. And clarified how reflect works with AoE spells.
    Neat. The change to Copycat is a smart one...and I still love the originality of the idea.

    I'd like to make a minor rewrite suggestion for Reflect Magic if you don't mind, so I've taken the liberty of doing that myself. Let me know if you think this is clearer:

    "Whenever you succeed on a saving throw against a spell or cantrip, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell's level (1 for a cantrip) as a reaction to reflect the spell's energy against its caster. When you do this, the caster must make the relevant saving throw against their own spell save DC and are affected exactly as if they had been the original target of or within the area of the spell."

    Leaving it as simply "reflect the spell against its caster" is still causing my rule-oriented brain to say, "Well, wouldn't that mean the spell re-occurs on the caster in its entirety?" I do think the intention is relatively clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by gloryblaze View Post
    Submitted a Monk subclass based on a hybrid of Talonflame from Pokémon and the Pegasus Knights from Fire Emblem. I am content with the flavor, but I have a nagging feeling that it's horrendously overpowered. My main concerns are:

    [stuff]
    I actually think Gale Wings is too loaded. Depends a little on what you want to keep / cut, but I'd make it advantage on your Initiative roll and probably strip one of the other benefits. Being first in initiative is a really nice benefit anyway, and while it does cost you quite a bit at 3rd level I would pretty much always use this feature (who wouldn't?) once I had a reasonable reserve of ki.

    Skystepper isn't bad, exactly, but monks generally are on a short-rest paradigm, and I feel like this feature is basically just to enable a bigger Brave Bird strike. Something like the Eagle Totemic Attunement (or Mike Mearls's Acrobat Thief) might be more useful here.

    Brave Bird probably is too powerful. I think you can generally assume a character will get the maximum dice, so it scales quite well, and you've noted the comparison to Quivering Palm. My inclination is to go with the 5 dice route; overall, though, I do like the risk-reward paradigm it offers. Possible suggestion: what if it requires your bonus action? Monks like those, so that makes it compete with other class features instead of a "you almost always want to use this if you're able." I would probably fiddle with the balance to find a sweet spot where 1 or 2 ki feels the right cost.

    Galeforce in concept looks pretty good to me. Given that you get a whole turn, it's much better than Action Surge, but having a cost and it being a capstone offset any concerns about overlap I'd have. I think it's a smidge under-costed--again, like Brave Bird, this is an ability you'll always want to use if you can. 4 feels better to me and matches with what you can recover with Perfect Self; I have no math to back that up. Additional wording note: you should generally use "reduce a creature to 0 hit points" as terminology rather than "kill" because of the fuzziness around death saving throws and such with NPCs.
    Last edited by Ivellius; 2018-07-05 at 06:57 AM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ninja_Prawn View Post
    You're probably right. I've introduced scaling to Reflect Magic and made it so you can't cast spells for free with Copycat. And clarified how reflect works with AoE spells.
    I wanted to add that Mimic Trait offers 4 "mechanical" bonuses and one "fluff" bonus. Given that, players are going to want to pick one of the mechanical choices most of the time. I would suggest instead tying the accent and mannerisms into the others. Something along the lines of "While you mimic a trait with this features, you may also choose to take on the target's accent, verbal tics, and mannerisms."

    Other than that, it seems like you've got a pretty good balance as of my reading it this morning (haven't digested my coffee yet though so may not be the best judge).

    Quote Originally Posted by gloryblaze
    Stuff
    Gale Wings allows a level 3 character to ignore an important roll every combat (or near enough every combat). I would suggest making it a flat bonus, like advantage (as Ivellius suggested) or maybe Proficiency in initiative rolls. If you do, you can leave the bonus to initiative free and make the ki cost for the doubled speed and bonus damage (regardless of whether you go first).

    Skystepper looks okay, but it feels kinda odd for me. Bonus actions usually have immediate results, this has a 10 minute duration. For balance I would say that instead of doubling existing fly speed, it should probably give a flat increase to fly speed. Casually doubling speed is the sort of thing that players will find a way to break (for that matter, how do Skystepper and Gale Wings stack? 3.5 had "two doublings is a tripling" written into the rules, but 5e doesn't have a default resolution for multiple doublings. What about haste in the mix? Do they have 2x2x2=8 times their normal speed or 2x2x2=4 times their normal speed?).

    I think that Brave Bird is hazily maybe okay, possibly. The movement in a straight line is a fairly restrictive prerequisite (once your enemies know about your super charge attack all they have to do is stay in melee with you to limit it), and its scaling requires you to use Step of the Wind just to maximize it when it is unlocked (an extra 1 ki cost PLUS your bonus action), and then only if you have a 30ft racial move speed (no halfling, gnome, or dwarf monks). It does have concerning interactions with speed boosting spells, especially haste, but that requires either a 5 level multiclass or a party member dedicating a third level spell just to let you hit yourself in the face every time you use it to the tune of 5d6/5d8. One problem I can see is that it combines with Gale Wings to nova hard on turn 1. I've played a Diviner wizard and that's the sort of thing I save my Portents 20 roll for (I'm sorry, how big was your dragon? Well now it's 2d10+22d8+Dex less big. No, it doesn't get a say in the matter, I always go first.). Though I guess the bonus damage on crit also means bonus damage on recoil...someone who is better at math will have to check this one.

    Galeforce could maybe have a slightly higher cost, but given that it triggers only once per round and it's your archetype capstone you are probably okay as it is.

    Finally, Brave Bird and Galeforce both require a piercing melee weapon which is a little odd for a monk subclass (if explained by your intro). Can you not also trigger them with an unarmed strike? Your description mentions javelins as well but none of these features improve thrown weapon attacks.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    Finally, Brave Bird and Galeforce both require a piercing melee weapon which is a little odd for a monk subclass (if explained by your intro). Can you not also trigger them with an unarmed strike? Your description mentions javelins as well but none of these features improve thrown weapon attacks.
    Although I was not the one posting it, I surmise that the intention was to make the features trigger on "attack with a melee weapon that deals piercing damage," a bonus for which javelins would (somewhat oddly) qualify.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    As a quick aside: there is a different Way of the Tempest on the board (It's what I called my Pirate Monk Subclass) they're far from the same, whomever is inspecting entries for DQs.

    EDIT:
    Also: The Way of the Center, a Barbarian subclass inspired by Black Holes. has now been posted.
    Last edited by Thanatos 51-50; 2018-07-05 at 11:21 AM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Thank you for the in depth analysis y'all! Will attempt to return the favor for your classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    I actually think Gale Wings is too loaded. Depends a little on what you want to keep / cut, but I'd make it advantage on your Initiative roll and probably strip one of the other benefits. Being first in initiative is a really nice benefit anyway, and while it does cost you quite a bit at 3rd level I would pretty much always use this feature (who wouldn't?) once I had a reasonable reserve of ki.
    Changed going first -> gaining expertise in initiative with no ki cost. Kept an optional ki cost to double speed, removed bonus damage.

    Skystepper isn't bad, exactly, but monks generally are on a short-rest paradigm, and I feel like this feature is basically just to enable a bigger Brave Bird strike. Something like the Eagle Totemic Attunement (or Mike Mearls's Acrobat Thief) might be more useful here.
    The long rest recharge was based on the Open Hand monk's Wholeness of Body, which is another 6th level feature with no ki cost that is a long rest recharge. I was considering something along the lines of "you can spend 1 ki point as a bonus action to gain a fly speed equal to your walking speed this turn. If you end your turn in the air, you fall". Idk how much I like that now, though, because...

    Brave Bird probably is too powerful. I think you can generally assume a character will get the maximum dice, so it scales quite well, and you've noted the comparison to Quivering Palm. My inclination is to go with the 5 dice route; overall, though, I do like the risk-reward paradigm it offers. Possible suggestion: what if it requires your bonus action? Monks like those, so that makes it compete with other class features instead of a "you almost always want to use this if you're able." I would probably fiddle with the balance to find a sweet spot where 1 or 2 ki feels the right cost.
    I did make Brave Bird eat your bonus action, and I would like the two abilities to synergize. I have not reduced the dice from 10 to 5 because a) it will be more difficult to achieve 10 dice on turns besides turn 1 without the ability to bonus action dash and b) I want it to be competitive with Flurry of Blows, which at high levels is 1 ki point and a bonus action for 2d10+10 (21) damage for 2 unarmed strikes. A 10d8 Brave Bird is 2 ki points (cost reduced), a bonus action, and 22 recoil damage for 10d8 (45) damage. As the ki cost is doubled, it makes sense to me that the damage should roughly be doubled as well, and the extra 4 damage is more than paid for by the recoil damage IMO. More importantly, the recoil helps to balance the fact that this is "fast damage", essentially allowing you to flurry twice in one turn rather than having to flurry twice over the course of 2 turns.

    Galeforce in concept looks pretty good to me. Given that you get a whole turn, it's much better than Action Surge, but having a cost and it being a capstone offset any concerns about overlap I'd have. I think it's a smidge under-costed--again, like Brave Bird, this is an ability you'll always want to use if you can. 4 feels better to me and matches with what you can recover with Perfect Self; I have no math to back that up. Additional wording note: you should generally use "reduce a creature to 0 hit points" as terminology rather than "kill" because of the fuzziness around death saving throws and such with NPCs.
    Wording changed, cost increased.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    Gale Wings allows a level 3 character to ignore an important roll every combat (or near enough every combat). I would suggest making it a flat bonus, like advantage (as Ivellius suggested) or maybe Proficiency in initiative rolls. If you do, you can leave the bonus to initiative free and make the ki cost for the doubled speed and bonus damage (regardless of whether you go first).
    Gale Wings was changed based on the consensus between you two - although I went with expertise in initiative rather than advantage because advantage feels kind of like the revised ranger's thing to me.

    Skystepper looks okay, but it feels kinda odd for me. Bonus actions usually have immediate results, this has a 10 minute duration. For balance I would say that instead of doubling existing fly speed, it should probably give a flat increase to fly speed. Casually doubling speed is the sort of thing that players will find a way to break (for that matter, how do Skystepper and Gale Wings stack? 3.5 had "two doublings is a tripling" written into the rules, but 5e doesn't have a default resolution for multiple doublings. What about haste in the mix? Do they have 2x2x2=8 times their normal speed or 2x2x2=4 times their normal speed?).
    Idk about the hard line between actions have durations and bonus actions take effect immediately. Shield of Faith, for instance, is a bonus action that has a 10 minute duration. However, at your suggestion, the if clause has been changed to an additive increase instead of a multiplicative one.

    I think that Brave Bird is hazily maybe okay, possibly. The movement in a straight line is a fairly restrictive prerequisite (once your enemies know about your super charge attack all they have to do is stay in melee with you to limit it), and its scaling requires you to use Step of the Wind just to maximize it when it is unlocked (an extra 1 ki cost PLUS your bonus action), and then only if you have a 30ft racial move speed (no halfling, gnome, or dwarf monks). It does have concerning interactions with speed boosting spells, especially haste, but that requires either a 5 level multiclass or a party member dedicating a third level spell just to let you hit yourself in the face every time you use it to the tune of 5d6/5d8. One problem I can see is that it combines with Gale Wings to nova hard on turn 1. I've played a Diviner wizard and that's the sort of thing I save my Portents 20 roll for (I'm sorry, how big was your dragon? Well now it's 2d10+22d8+Dex less big. No, it doesn't get a say in the matter, I always go first.). Though I guess the bonus damage on crit also means bonus damage on recoil...someone who is better at math will have to check this one.
    Brave Bird now has a bonus action cost, to prevent self-maximizing it with Step of the Wind (or a rogue dip for cunning action). It now requires set up (such as haste, like you mentioned) to do max damage in most circumstances. I have kept the ability to do a turn 1 alpha strike with it thanks to internal synergy with Gale wings, because that's sort of what the whole class is building towards is a redonk turn 1 and then evening out afterwards.

    Galeforce could maybe have a slightly higher cost, but given that it triggers only once per round and it's your archetype capstone you are probably okay as it is.
    Cost up by 1

    Finally, Brave Bird and Galeforce both require a piercing melee weapon which is a little odd for a monk subclass (if explained by your intro). Can you not also trigger them with an unarmed strike? Your description mentions javelins as well but none of these features improve thrown weapon attacks.
    Dropped the requirement from Gale Force so it can be triggered by unarmed strikes. You can, in fact, make melee attacks with javelins (as well as throwing them), and the intent for Brave Bird is sort of a set-your-lance-and-charge attack, so I want that to be melee attack only. Brave Bird is now the only feature with the melee piercing requirement, as the bonus damage was dropped from Gale Wings and the requirement was dropped from Galeforce.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Although I was not the one posting it, I surmise that the intention was to make the features trigger on "attack with a melee weapon that deals piercing damage," a bonus for which javelins would (somewhat oddly) qualify.
    The intent was still to force you to make a melee attack with your javelin, should you choose to use one. The benefit of using a javelin over a spear is the better thrown range for times when you need a ranged attack or do not want to proc BB, whereas the upside of the spear is that you can wield it in 2 hands to get a d8 damage dice far before the martial arts die catches up. Once martial arts die is d8, javelin is just flat out better than spear I'm pretty sure

    EDIT - oath of searing stars comments
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivellius View Post
    Oath Spells: You gain access to the following spells at the paladin levels listed.
    3rdarmor of Agathys, arms of Hadar
    5thblindness / deafness, crown of madness
    9thhunger of Hadar, vampiric touch
    13thEvard’s black tentacles, phantasmal killer
    17thBigby’s hand, contact other plane
    Bigby's Hand feels kind of out of place? Not a huge deal, but i might throw in Synaptic Static instead. I would also kind of expect Sickening Radiance in the 4th level spells section. Of course, neither of these are PHB spells, so it makes sense that you might want to avoid them to remain consistent with WotC's published material. I think the only class or race that gives access to a non-PHB spell is the Triton, but I could be wrong.

    Channel Divinity: When you take this oath at 3rd level, you gain the following two Channel Divinity options:
    • Weapon of the Beyond: As an action, for 1 minute, you empower your weapon with unnatural energy, causing it to disrupt both the body and mind of your foes. You add your Charisma modifier to attack rolls made with a weapon of your choice (with a minimum bonus of +1). The weapon’s base damage type changes to necrotic, and any radiant damage you deal through the weapon (such as through your Divine Smite feature) becomes psychic damage for the duration. If the weapon is not already magical, it becomes magical for the duration. You can end this effect on your turn as part of any other action. If you are no longer holding or carrying this weapon, or if you fall unconscious, this effect ends.
    • Turn the Simple: As an action, you present your holy symbol and rebuke those creatures that make up non-civilized life. Each beast or plant that can see or hear you within 30 feet of you must make a Wisdom saving throw. If the creature fails, it is turned for 1 minute or until it takes damage. A turned creature must spend its turns trying to move as far away from you as it can, and it can’t willingly move to a space within 30 feet of you. It also can’t take reactions. For its action, it can use only the Dash action or try to escape from an effect that prevents it from moving. If there’s nowhere to move, the creature can use the Dodge action instead.
    Based on the name of the oath (searing stars) and the 4th edition tradition of far realm star creatures being associated with radiant damage, on top of 5e recently making an effort for more sinister (or at least non-holy) radiant effects to be included (sickening radiance; wall of light and crown of stars to a lesser extent), I would expect this oath to embrace radiant damage rather than shy away from it.

    Touched by the Searing Stars: Beginning at 15th level, you gain one of the following benefits as the influence of the Beyond twists your physical form.
    • Clutching Tentacles: You grow two tentacles from your back that hunger to restrain mortal life. You can use these tentacles to initiate a grapple as a bonus action, holding the creature between these tentacles. You also gain a climbing speed equal to your current walking speed if these tentacles are unoccupied.
    • Fearful Visage: Your countenance shifts into a horrid approximation of mortal mien. As an action, you can choose a creature that can see and hear you within 60 feet. The creature must make an Intelligence saving throw against your paladin spell save DC or be frightened of you for 1 minute. It can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns to end this effect. On a success, the creature is immune to this feature for 24 hours.
    • Oozing Form: You become only semisolid, gaining the ability to avoid damage and seep through small cracks and other openings. When struck by a weapon attack, you can use your reaction to halve the damage received. Additionally, you can use your action to destabilize your form into a liquid form, letting you pass through an opening or crack that is permeable and treating other liquids as solid surfaces. If you do not restabilize yourself on your turn (no action required), you suffer your character level in necrotic damage at the end of your turn. This damage cannot be avoided in any way.
    • Once you choose one of these effects, you gain its benefits until you choose another effect after you finish a long rest.
    -Fearful Visage feels like it ought to be a Wis save rather than Int, to me at least. Frightened is also a very powerful condition, so keying it to a more common save may be good for balance.
    -The wording on Oozing Form feels awkward to me. I would probably model it on the "Amorphous" trait that many oozes have. Something like

    You become only semisolid, gaining the ability to avoid damage and seep through small cracks and other openings. When struck by a weapon attack, you can use your reaction to halve the damage received. Additionally, you can use your action to become an amorphous blob. As a blob, you can move through a space as narrow as 1 inch wide without squeezing. You can return to your original form at any time. If you end your turn as a blob, you take necrotic damage equal to your character level. This damage cannot be reduced or prevented in any way.
    Overall, this is a pretty cool subclass! It has a strong fluff theme (alien, spooky) but I do kind of feel like it lacks a core mechanical identity. Is it supposed to focus on dealing and resisting psychic damage (the most prevalent theme I currently see)? Is it supposed to be a shapeshifter? A grappler? Though this is sort of a minor nitpick. Unity of flavor tends to be more important than unity of mechanics, IMO.
    Last edited by gloryblaze; 2018-07-05 at 05:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gloryblaze View Post
    Thank you for the in depth analysis y'all! Will attempt to return the favor for your classes.
    I think your changes are well-considered and it looks much better. Not all of the suggested changes were necessary, I wouldn't say--I think both MoleMage and I were approaching it from "Here are several possible avenues to bring things in line." It seems solid now, though I do think a more evocative name might be nice. Way of the Soaring Strike? (That's an off-the-top-of-my-head remark.)

    Quote Originally Posted by gloryblaze View Post
    EDIT - oath of searing stars comments

    Overall, this is a pretty cool subclass! It has a strong fluff theme (alien, spooky) but I do kind of feel like it lacks a core mechanical identity. Is it supposed to focus on dealing and resisting psychic damage (the most prevalent theme I currently see)? Is it supposed to be a shapeshifter? A grappler? Though this is sort of a minor nitpick. Unity of flavor tends to be more important than unity of mechanics, IMO.
    I'll leave my feedback spoilered just for space.

    Spoiler: Searing Stars remarks
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    In terms of overall role, it's meant to be a vaguely battlefield-control option, but in a different way than, say, the Oath of Conquest does it. Notice the spells are mostly AoE / control effects; I do consider the "unknown horrors" an important concept to cover as well; in my mind the psychic damage / resistance is an outgrowth of that, which runs alongside the mechanical control aspect (through spells and Fearful Visage). Mechanically, though, I felt the psychic damage aspect would add a bit more impact to the features that use it, which otherwise might feel a bit lacking for players.

    You're right that I avoid non-PHB spells, just as part of a general policy of being as widely compatible as possible. Bigby's Hand doesn't exactly fit with its normal fluff, but comparing it to arms / hunger of Hadar it seemed like the closest 5th-level thing available. Grab more stuff, basically.

    The two Channel Divinity options are the things I'm least happy about. I think Weapon of the Beyond is reasonably thematic, and I felt that the spells were holding down the control theme well enough at this level, but I agree that outright replacing radiant damage might not be warranted. Having said that, I did also want an option for psychic damage at this point--I'm probably going to change it to optional psychic damage instead of required replacement. Turn the Simple is just "well, lots of paladins have this and it's not too powerful." Which isn't a strong defense, I know.

    Given the emphasis on psychic damage, I like Fearful Visage as an Intelligence save better. It's not intended to be overcome with force of will; your mind has to be strong enough to be unaffected. Frightened seemed the best condition to me, though I'd be open to other suggestions there. Oozing Form is one of those features where the squeezing option is extremely situational, but I worry that making it better could lead to a lot of in-combat "abuse." Given that it requires an action and you destabilizing your form, it's not really intended to be a "quick getaway" option so much as an infiltration approach, and I like keeping the reaction damage reduction on it. While I didn't intend it when I was sketching it out, I liked the action economy of putting all of these things together for the final form, so they do also require different actions for a reason. It's also intended to give you something from the class that doesn't require a resource and can be a strategic staple, as I consider the aura semi-situational. You are definitely correct that Amorphous Form would be a much simpler implementation, though.


    Thanks for the quick feedback. I'm going to have to ponder other CD options, I think, but I appreciate the positive comments.
    Last edited by Ivellius; 2018-07-05 at 06:38 PM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    VMC warlock is done! And was surprisingly much effort to do, actually. Ah well. What do we think of it?

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BerzerkerUnit View Post
    It's available on the DM's Guild
    @MoleMage Is that a breach of rule #4?
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Yes, sharing a class publicly elsewhere during the contest would be a breach of that rule. Please take down the other posting or submit a new subclass until the contest is over (once the contest finishes you can do whatever with your class).
    Last edited by MoleMage; 2018-07-07 at 10:21 AM.

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Well, it looks like I didn't learn my lesson about homebrewing in systems I havent played. The Xenomancer is up and ready to be PEACHed.
    My Homebrew (Free to use, don't even bother asking. PM me if you do, though; I'd love to hear stories).

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

    Sengmeng, I really like the ideas thrown here, but I have a few concerns.

    Psionics
    This feature is pretty good, and while I won't really comment on how balanced it may or may not be to remove components in most cases (I personally don't think it's a super huge deal, but a lot of people disagree with me and say it's huge), the biggest concern I have is that it also removes costly components; any spells that normally have a cost can now be cast for no cost (aside from a spell slot, of course).

    Body Sculptor
    What exactly does it mean by "Alternatively, he may choose one of these changes to have for the entire day."? Does this mean you can choose one effect when you cast a spell, but cannot get the rest? Or can you just have them for the whole day instead of a few rounds? I would assume the former, but you should probably clarify.

    Psion
    Some clarification is needed, here; can multiple points be spent on one cast, or only one?
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