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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Fighting a GW Red Dragon (rules lawyer questions: PF)

    So some friends and I have been having a lively debate about how someone might actually go about killing a great wyrm red dragon, and a few interesting points keep coming up so I figured I'd farm them out to the internet.

    First some context:
    We assume that we have a party of 4 level 19 adventurers facing off against the dragon in it's lair in a volcanic basin. The dragon is CR 22 and is therefore a challenging boss monster for the party. The party is aware that they will be fighting a gw red, but does not know the specific spells that it might have prepared. They have plenty of time to prepare and purchase items with level 19 effective wealth (880,000 gp). The dragon is not specifically aware of the party's approach, but is too smart to be caught completely off guard. The party stealthily ascends the mountain and encounters the dragon lazing in the center of the volcanic crater. They take a few minutes to get up some buffs, rdrink some potions, and plan they're attack. They have one full round as a surprise before the battle begins in earnest.

    Some important stats for the gw red dragon:
    Colossal size, space: 30, reach 20 (30 for the bite)
    AC39, Touch 0, FF 39
    449HP, SR 33, Immune to fire, sleep, and paralysis
    CL19, quicken spell, empower spell
    9th level spells: 2 known, 4/day
    The party is not specifically aware of the dragons spells, so the DM is free to basically choose whatever spells he wants on the fly (excluding gate and high level summons cause that's just unfair)

    So here are some issues we have encountered in our discussions:
    The radius of antimagic field and prismatic sphere list a "10ft radius emanation centered on you". They also say it creates a 10ft radius sphere. Antimagic field even says that parts of the creature which extend outside the sphere are not covered. Does this mean that the dragon would essentially extend outside of the sphere by 5 feet in all directions, rendering them kind of useless? Or would these effects just extend 10 feet from the dragon's square, essentially creating a 50ft sphere?

    How does rod of cancellation behave inside an antimagic field? If the dragon has concentric prismatic sphere and antimagic field, does the rod still effect the sphere? Is it suppressed? Or can one rod dispel the field and another dispel the sphere?

    I am sure we had more topics but these are the ones I can recall immediately. If you come up with more discrepancies I'd love to hear them! I feel like fighting a gw red dragon is like a milestone in a tabletop players career, and I want to know how it'd go down.

    Thank you guys very much!

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    Default Re: Fighting a GW Red Dragon (rules lawyer questions: PF)

    I'm curious why the AC of you're dragon doesnt line up with the statblock from the SRD?

    Quote Originally Posted by GW Red Dragon AC on SRD
    41 (-8 size, +39 natural), touch 2, flat-footed 41

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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Fighting a GW Red Dragon (rules lawyer questions: PF)

    A rod of cancellation doesn't function in an antimagic field.
    An antimagic field does not penetrate a prismatic sphere.
    A rod of cancellation has no effect on an antimagic field.
    Antimagic field is a 10 foot emanation. Prismatic sphere is a specific size sphere. Emanations emanate.so would be 50 feet surrounding the dragon. The prismatic sphere would create a 10 foot ball in its stomache. Kinda makes me worried about swallow whole...

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    Default Re: Fighting a GW Red Dragon (rules lawyer questions: PF)

    Two things leap to mind;

    First, how are you running a full buff suite on 4 characters close enough to the dragon's resting chamber that the rnds/lvl stuff isn't in danger of running short but still far enough away that it doesn't hear the casters commanding their magic in the strong, clear voice required for spellcasting? Honestly, even with the 10 point advantage for the dragon being asleep, that surprise round seems dodgy at best with its perception +38.

    No one at this level is well served by an AMF. It almost looks like the dragon could be before you consider force effects and instantaneous conjurations. It pretty much shuts out melees but so does the dragon's raw melee power. AMF is just a desperate gamble to save yourself from being subjected to disjunction. Dipping into the magma and casting a buff routine of its own is -far- more effective, even if it has to dig out and fill with air a small chamber for its head for verbal components.

    First step absolutely has to be pinning it down so it doesn't withdraw to regroup and come at you prepared, same as any other high-level caster threat.
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    Default Re: Fighting a GW Red Dragon (rules lawyer questions: PF)

    In his lair? You are dead. Unless the dragon is exceedingly (far lower than his stats) stupid.

    You'll never make it to melee/disjunction range.
    If your anti-divinations aren't up to par, you'll be subject to a scry&die while you are sitting at the inn making these plans.
    Last edited by Elkad; 2018-05-24 at 07:42 AM.

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    Default Re: Fighting a GW Red Dragon (rules lawyer questions: PF)

    You see, there's not much "raw power" in D&D that can compete with tens of rounds in buffing and a surprise round for a team of 4 characters. The dragon would die in 1 turn, and he knows it. That's why running D&D encounters like it's a videogame doesn't work - it's not a videogame, and bosses don't have 500,000 HP to last 30 rounds of combat facing heavy fire.

    Even White dragons would laugh at the stupidity of "let them buff inside my lair just outside my 'boss room' and let them have the surprise". Dragons are a menace specifically because you can't really get the drop on them, and they fight well enough from far enough that outlasting it isn't really an option - you have to play his game and go through minions, breath weapons and spells to even reach him. If a dragon doesn't use divinations or has a way to collect any information on its surroundings, it's just a disguised Hydra playing the role.

    I love how you seem to have every single card in your favor and still say "using high level summons is unfair".

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    Default Re: Fighting a GW Red Dragon (rules lawyer questions: PF)

    For what it is worth regarding emanations and larger than Medium creatures, see this FAQ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elkad View Post
    In his lair? You are dead. Unless the dragon is exceedingly (far lower than his stats) stupid.

    You'll never make it to melee/disjunction range.
    If your anti-divinations aren't up to par, you'll be subject to a scry&die while you are sitting at the inn making these plans.
    Now, while I do agree that an intelligent creature will have a lair more difficult to penetrate than just flying close, buffing, and descending, I think getting scried and fried in an inn from this dragon is a little absurd. What sort of tactics would allow the Red Wyrm learn about the party's intent and plannings? While divination magics are powerful, I'm not familiar with spells that could inform the dragon to that point aside from vague Wishes. Do you have any particular spells in mind that the dragon may employ for this sort of tactic? Or are you assuming the dragon has some sort of vast spy network to inform him?
    Last edited by Xethik; 2018-05-24 at 02:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Fighting a GW Red Dragon (rules lawyer questions: PF)

    Quote Originally Posted by Xethik View Post
    Do you have any particular spells in mind that the dragon may employ for this sort of tactic? Or are you assuming the dragon has some sort of vast spy network to inform him?
    For starters, the school-namer spell Divination is a stronger form of Augury, and gives you general information regarding a certain topic for the next week. "Will my lair be invaded in some way?" is a valid question. Permanent Clarivoyance/Clariaudience lets you always see and hear around your lair's surroundings. Prying Eyes is effectively a bunch of scouts that last 1 hour/level and fly around your lair and its vicinity - if one dies without seeing anything, the rest can go and find out why(Greater version has True Seeing). Detect Scrying is a 24-hour spell that tells you when someone tries to scry you or your location, which should leave you on guard. Symbol of Scrying is a trap that can be made permanent. Those are the ones I know of for PF.
    Last edited by Kayblis; 2018-05-24 at 05:48 PM.

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    Default Re: Fighting a GW Red Dragon (rules lawyer questions: PF)

    Divination. "What credible threats will I face in the next week?"
    "A ship that you attack will have several powerful sea druids onboard, a party will invade your lair as you rest, and a powerful green dragon will cross your territory uninvited." (busy week!)

    Then feel free to unload all the other divination spells to find out more details. Play 2019 questions with Commune, etc. The pre-emptive strike was a bit of a stretch, but not completely. Depending what he finds out, he may even call in favors to locate the party.

    I've got a problem with the "surprise round" in the OP as well. In a lair he's possibly been reinforcing for centuries? Alarm, Forbiddance, Anticipate Teleport, Detect Scrying, Mage's Private Sanctum and a bunch of other stuff should be running all the time (many of them Permemant). Plus possible minions. He's a Red Dragon, good chance he sleeps IN a pool of lava or molten gold or something. Even if he still needs to stick his nose out like a crocodile (no necklace of adaptation or similar), he'll have Improved Cover at least. And maybe a Permanent Image of him sleeping on a pile of silver near the pool, instead of in it.

    About the only option that might work to get the party straight into range would be to transport via Wish. If you get the surprise round, you may be able to just drop him with straight damage.

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    Default Re: Fighting a GW Red Dragon (rules lawyer questions: PF)

    How does the dragon get acces to cleric spells? I thought they only cast sorcerer spells?
    Last edited by sjeshin; 2018-05-25 at 07:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Fighting a GW Red Dragon (rules lawyer questions: PF)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rubberband_Man View Post
    So some friends and I have been having a lively debate about how someone might actually go about killing a great wyrm red dragon, and a few interesting points keep coming up so I figured I'd farm them out to the internet.

    First some context:
    We assume that we have a party of 4 level 19 adventurers facing off against the dragon in it's lair in a volcanic basin. The dragon is CR 22 and is therefore a challenging boss monster for the party. The party is aware that they will be fighting a gw red, but does not know the specific spells that it might have prepared. They have plenty of time to prepare and purchase items with level 19 effective wealth (880,000 gp). The dragon is not specifically aware of the party's approach, but is too smart to be caught completely off guard. The party stealthily ascends the mountain and encounters the dragon lazing in the center of the volcanic crater. They take a few minutes to get up some buffs, rdrink some potions, and plan they're attack. They have one full round as a surprise before the battle begins in earnest.
    If I had been a member of your party in the situation you're describing, I would've first pinched my arm to make sure I'm not dreaming, and then I'd try to find out whether I'm already dead but haven't realized it. If it appears I'm still awake and alive, I'd start carefully looking for where the dragon actually is, wondering when it's gonna throw its great "welcoming surprise" on us, and how much that surprise will have me beg for death before I'm finally allowed to die...

    And if the context you've presented actually turns out to be real, surprise round and all, I'd gladly offer say the poor party monk/rogue/fighter/slayer a chance to perform a truly heroic deed and let them put the obviously demented and lazy fat old lizard out of its misery. (Or in the case of a party swashbuckler/kinny/shifter, maybe let them try their best while ensuring the dragon actually isn't given a chance to fight back...)

    So as other posters have said, the whole setup feels extremely unlikely. And if it does happen, what is there to debate? You've already won! The deed itself remaining shouldn't be challenging at all for a party of 19th level PCs, and might very well be perfectly doable in a few seconds, possibly depending on the particulars of any contingency spell triggered, by say the party barbarian alone. So the rest of you can start going through that truly epic mountain of treasure!

    I mean, at this stage in this situation, even a single-classed no-frills Tetori monk might very well be able to handle the dragon on their own, although they may require a few minutes rather than a few seconds... Minutes filled with the sad old beast wheezing horribly, its eyes popping and its many limbs thrashing about in desperate panic, while it's slowly but relentlessly being suffocated in the monk's iron grip...

    Quote Originally Posted by sjeshin View Post
    How does the dragon get acces to cleric spells? I thought they only cast sorcerer spells?
    Well, it can cast limited wish up to 6/day, each of which can grant a casting of a up to a 5th spell from any spell list. So aside from divination, the dragon can also cast similar potentially useful divine stuff to gather info about the party, like commune, contact entity III, or ancestral memory.
    Last edited by upho; 2018-05-25 at 10:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Fighting a GW Red Dragon (rules lawyer questions: PF)

    There is a different alarm spell Permenancied in every 10ft square of the lair. The dragon knows where you are well enough to set you on fire.

    It is also immune to cold damage. That weakness is too obvious NOT to fix.

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    Default Re: Fighting a GW Red Dragon (rules lawyer questions: PF)

    Quote Originally Posted by sjeshin View Post
    How does the dragon get acces to cleric spells? I thought they only cast sorcerer spells?
    It's a footnote right in the Abilities by Age chart for Red Dragons

    "Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domains as arcane spells."

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    Default Re: Fighting a GW Red Dragon (rules lawyer questions: PF)

    The way anti-magic sphere worked for my party is that the part of the creature that was in the sphere didn't have the magic effects, but the part of the creature that wasn't did. How optimized would these 4 level 19 characters be? At high optimization levels they would probably trash the dragon.

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    Default Re: Fighting a GW Red Dragon (rules lawyer questions: PF)

    So here's the thing "One big boss monster" vs. the party does not work very well in this game.

    It's not impossible, but it's very swingy and thus a PITA to properly calibrate. Depending on the party and their optimization level, they will either crush your boss, or the boss will crush them. It'll usually be rocket tag, not the satisfying/white-knuckle/edge-of-your-seat/drawn-out brawl you're looking for.

    This is because the primary resource in D&D is actions - and a party of 4+ is already going to absolutely dwarf the dragon in those. So the dragon needs to be strong enough to survive multiple turns of getting punched in the face. And a dragon strong enough to do that is typically going to be strong enough to almost one-shot each member of that party unless you're pulling your punches. This is exacerbated by the fact that, being a boss, you're probably going to naturally go with a CR above the party's APL rather than something equal. Worse, you're probably going to give the boss terrain advantage, because that's just how we've been conditioned to expect boss fights to work - so the dragon will be in its lair, which may have a bunch of traps, or just some lava because red dragon, or just general cave stuff like being dark and difficult terrain. All of these give the dragon an advantage and should be factored into the encounter's EL.

    As for what you can do about it, there are a couple of tricks you can use:


    1) You can lower the CR of the dragon and use the XP difference (again, taking the true/final EL into account) to give it some minions instead.
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    If the lair is in a volcano for example, maybe there are some appropriate elementals chilling around too. Maybe there's a tribe of reptilians - lizardfolk, kobolds etc - worshipping the damn thing so it has a shaman and a guard detail nearby, or even just visiting to pay their monthly tribute right as the party shows up. Maybe the dragon made some constructs to guard its hoard while its out. The idea is to weaken the boss slightly but also to nerf your players' ability to focus-fire it because they have more immediate threats to deal with - especially threats that don't share the dragon's own weaknesses.


    2) Another trick is to create a phased boss, using an approach like AngryGM's The Orc Is Two Orcs. (His articles on the subject were for 4e and 5e, but the principle can be adopted to 3.x easily.)
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    Basically your boss dragon is two dragons in one, and most importantly, gets that many actions. As the party weakens it though, one of the "dragons" dies, and the second one is left with fewer actions, keeping pace with the party's dwindling resources. This again solves the problem of the dragon getting one set of actions to everybody's 4, while simultaneously solving the problem of most actions of the dragon's being highly lethal to an individual party member.
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    Default Re: Fighting a GW Red Dragon (rules lawyer questions: PF)

    Even played stupid that CR 22 dragon is really an under treasured CR30 just from its printed stats not counting the divinations, traps, contigencies, summons antimagic and alpha strikes everybody here is reccomending. Your party has to be on top of it's game to pull this off pre 20 aka melee need not apply.

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    Default Re: Fighting a GW Red Dragon (rules lawyer questions: PF)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sto View Post
    How optimized would these 4 level 19 characters be? At high optimization levels they would probably trash the dragon.
    In the specific scenario described, I believe even a low- to mid-op party would trash the dragon. And unfortunately, if the dragon instead has been run more in line with its superior intellect and formidable abilites, the PCs are likely just seconds from a TPK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    So here's the thing "One big boss monster" vs. the party does not work very well in this game.

    It's not impossible, but it's very swingy and thus a PITA to properly calibrate. Depending on the party and their optimization level, they will either crush your boss, or the boss will crush them. It'll usually be rocket tag, not the satisfying/white-knuckle/edge-of-your-seat/drawn-out brawl you're looking for.

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    This.

    I don't think the OP came here looking for GM advice, but I agree these things really must be said. It would be a sad anti-climax if this encounter actually happened in a real game and the dragon dies before it even gets it's first round (which, again, is quite likely if the scenario actually turns out to be as described). All that planning for countering spells and getting items such as a rod of cancellation, and then all it took was a little debuffing from the wizard, a pounce from the buffed barbarian and a full attack from the equally buffed archer ranger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malroth View Post
    Even played stupid that CR 22 dragon is really an under treasured CR30 just from its printed stats not counting the divinations, traps, contigencies, summons antimagic and alpha strikes everybody here is reccomending.
    Uh...? While I agree dragons are almost universally under-CRed, it's not nearly that far off. The two actually CR 30 PF monsters published by Paizo probably eat dragons like these for breakfast, and their power isn't really comparable to that of any monster below CR 27 or so. In short: Cthulhu >>>>> Tarrasque >> Great Wyrm Red Dragon

    Quote Originally Posted by Malroth View Post
    Your party has to be on top of it's game to pull this off pre 20 aka melee need not apply.
    In the scenario described, how do you arrive at this conclusion?

    AFAICT, for example a reasonably high-op 19th level bloodrager could easily one-shot the dragon in those circumstances, simply by fly-pouncing it from 200'+ away in the surprise round. And his colleague might've had a greater melee reach than the dragon for more than 10 levels by 19th, and may be able to reliably scare the scales off the poor old lizard and dirty trick it into a dazed panic for several rounds before it even gets a chance to cast a spell. So I don't see how 19th level melee characters in a party of 4 will be pointless against a dragon.
    Last edited by upho; 2018-05-25 at 07:53 PM.

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    Default Re: Fighting a GW Red Dragon (rules lawyer questions: PF)

    So yeah... this setup actually happened with me many years ago. I was given 40 rounds of prep time and the gm never suspected my plan. The dragon was trapped in an illusionary prison with permanent forbiddance etc in his lair. Those outside the prison could see in, but those within could not see out.
    Any attack made from outside it destroyed the prison so we had to make the first round count.

    5k points of damage later the gm ended the campaign.

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    Default Re: Fighting a GW Red Dragon (rules lawyer questions: PF)

    Quote Originally Posted by upho View Post
    Uh...? While I agree dragons are almost universally under-CRed, it's not nearly that far off. The two actually CR 30 PF monsters published by Paizo probably eat dragons like these for breakfast, and their power isn't really comparable to that of any monster below CR 27 or so. In short: Cthulhu >>>>> Tarrasque >> Great Wyrm Red Dragon.
    Eh. Tarrasque is really, really weak. It has no spellcasting and no magic items and physically a Core Fighter 20 can solo it. It's a good Magic Jar body for a level 20 Wizard though and a Wizard Tarrasque is already a much more credible threat. Allday buffs, Contingencies, remote operation powers, mobility powers and such all come with 20 levels of casting, not to mention potent underlings of all stripes.
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    Default Re: Fighting a GW Red Dragon (rules lawyer questions: PF)

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Eh. Tarrasque is really, really weak. It has no spellcasting and no magic items and physically a Core Fighter 20 can solo it. It's a good Magic Jar body for a level 20 Wizard though and a Wizard Tarrasque is already a much more credible threat. Allday buffs, Contingencies, remote operation powers, mobility powers and such all come with 20 levels of casting, not to mention potent underlings of all stripes.
    Well, yes.

    But I was replying in the context of a relatively low-op party facing encounters such as the one described in the OP, in which enemies like dragons rarely come with minions and generally don't use their casting abilities in a manner anywhere consistent with their mental faculties. And in that context, I'd say a massive melee brute such as the Tarrasque actually deserves its higher CR, as such a party will most likely have a much harder time reducing its hp before it's able to retaliate in melee, which likely has more devastating immediate effects than a turn from the surprised dragon. Not to mention that even if the party does manage to actually beat the tarrasque unconscious, they'll likely also struggle with keeping it unconscious and finding a permanent solution for its unstoppable regen 40 immortality. Most importantly, any monsters less (in)famous than Cthulhu and the Tarrasque don't deserve to be in my exclusive ratings!

    In a context where these monsters actually try to make the most of their abilities, the tarrasque would of course belong after the dragon in my little comparison, while a considerably more dangerous CR 25 monster should have to take its place. Which leaves us with precious few options... So how 'bout Cthulhu >>>> Drakainia >>> Great Wyrm Red Dragon >>> Tarrasque?

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    Default Re: Fighting a GW Red Dragon (rules lawyer questions: PF)

    I always get suspicious of posts like this. OP made this post and hasnt shown up since....

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    Default Re: Fighting a GW Red Dragon (rules lawyer questions: PF)

    Quote Originally Posted by upho View Post
    Well, yes.

    But I was replying in the context of a relatively low-op party facing encounters such as the one described in the OP, in which enemies like dragons rarely come with minions and generally don't use their casting abilities in a manner anywhere consistent with their mental faculties. And in that context, I'd say a massive melee brute such as the Tarrasque actually deserves its higher CR, as such a party will most likely have a much harder time reducing its hp before it's able to retaliate in melee, which likely has more devastating immediate effects than a turn from the surprised dragon. Not to mention that even if the party does manage to actually beat the tarrasque unconscious, they'll likely also struggle with keeping it unconscious and finding a permanent solution for its unstoppable regen 40 immortality. Most importantly, any monsters less (in)famous than Cthulhu and the Tarrasque don't deserve to be in my exclusive ratings!

    In a context where these monsters actually try to make the most of their abilities, the tarrasque would of course belong after the dragon in my little comparison, while a considerably more dangerous CR 25 monster should have to take its place. Which leaves us with precious few options... So how 'bout Cthulhu >>>> Drakainia >>> Great Wyrm Red Dragon >>> Tarrasque?
    Cthulhu? Isn't he cr 30ish in PF? His stats and abilities are ridiculous, easily a challenge for even the most high op party. With at will astral projection, you could never be sure you were actually fighting him... makes a great recurring villian for high op parties.

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