Duel wield & two weapon style vs two handed GWM

[Whit]

Which does more damage based on the following

1. Both have same stats let’s say 18 str for future reference A can also go Dexterity based finess if chosen
2. Both hit with all attacks.
3. Both are same. Fighter lvl 1 A had two weapon style and B has GWF
4. At lvl 5 A has duel wield and B has GWM
Both only have the above to use nothing else
5. Both start with chain mail (16) at lvl 1 plate mail (18)at lvl 5
6. A can have lesser armor for Dexterity based finess

Lvl 1
A is two weapon style 2 scimitar 1d6 (3) duel wield at 5
B is two handed weapon gwf great-sword 2d6 (6)at 5 gwm At

lvl 1
A. Has 2 attacks. 1+ bonus Action that’s +4 hit +4 damage (14) and an chain mail AC of 16 or if finess based AC st.leather 12+4=16
B. Has 1 attack +4 hit +4 damage (10) damage. and an chain mail AC of 16

At lvl 5
A has 2 attacks +1 bonus attack and now uses 2 Long swords 1d8(4) with str or keeps scimitar finesse based 1d6(3)
+1ac Str. based is +4 to hit +4 dam (24) damage and plate mail (18)plus duel wield +1 AC 19
Or finess based (21)with AC 17 st.leather duel wield
B has 2 attacks +4 hit + 4 damage 2d6(6) total 20 with plate mail AC 18 now GWM can give +10 damage per hit for (40)
That’s +20 damage. Yet even though I said they all hit. GWM gets -5 to hit to get the bonus. So if we take this into account there is a greater chance of missing. So let’s say 1 hits. That’s (30) damage

Which is better. For AC purpose not to get hit.
A and B equal at pre plate both chain mail,and stud leather at 16
Lvl 5 with plate mail A wins with 19 over 18 and finess loses 17 unde 18.
Damage based
Pre lvl 5 two weapon wins 14 over 10
Post 5. A wins with 24 or 21 and B has 20 without using the -5 to hit and +10 damage. But if calculated B wins hands down.
The main thing to determine is if the -5 to hit significantly reduces 1 or both attacks to hit. Which of course is based on the ac of target.
So if hitting high AC is paramount A wins if the ac is low B wins hands down for damage. So B needs to target low Ac and A can target both
With those factors. A is generally better than B. For a consistent hit factor.
What do you think

[Xihirli]

Assuming a 100% hit rate? Kay then.
I'll also assume the Fighter class but Barbarian Rage changes up the numbers somewhat.

Before Extra Attack, TWF does 2d6+8 vs 2d6+4 with each strike. Rerolling ones and twos brings the average of a d6 from 3.5 to roughly 4.
So TWF does about 15 damage per turn while GWF does 12.

At every Extra Attack level, TWF adds 1d6+4 while GWF adds 2d6+4.
So at fifth level, TWF is dealing 3d6+12 damage (average 22.5) per turn while GWF is dealing 4d6+8 (average 24).

Throw in Action Surge and TWF deals 5d6+20 (34.5) while GWF deals 8d6+16 (48).

And the gap keeps getting wider at every increase in Extra Attack and Action Surge.

Now toss in Magic Initiate (Warlock) for Hex or play a Ranger for Hunter's Mark and the numbers change again. I'll be doing the Ranger bit (Rangers don't get GWF whatever assume it's a dip)

Before Extra Attack:
First turn: Bonus action Hunter's Mark, TWF loses out.
TWF 2d6+4 (11), GWF 3d6+4 (16)

Second Turn: Things start to get interesting as Hunter's Mark starts to benefit the additional attack.
TWF 4d6+8 (22), GWF 3d6+4 (16)

So in only one turn TWF has recovered the attack it lost doing hunter's mark to do a total of 33 damage against GWF's 32. The gap widens every turn and TWF is pretty clearly ahead.

After Extra Attack:
First turn: Bonus action Hunter's Mark, TWF loses out.
TWF 4d6+8 (22), GWF 6d6+8 (32)

Second Turn
TWF 6d6+12 (33), GWF 6d6+8 (32)

So once again TWF is doing more damage, but the gap isn't nearly as wide and it will take ten whole turns to match GWF, longer than most combats last. Still, it's closer.


BUT factor in that GWF can use things like Second Wind, Samurai Advantage thing, and maybe Dash, Disengage, or Hide as a bonus action and then we have a pretty clear winner after Extra Attack.

[CTurbo]

With no feats, TWF is better pre level 5. After level 5, they are pretty even. Level 11 Fighter is where GWF starts to really pull ahead.
TWF benefits more from bumping the attack stat and having a magical weapon bonus.

Pre level 5 with 16 Dex/Str

TWF = 2d6+6 = 13
GWF = 2d6+3 = 10 with rerolling 1s and 2s adding somewhere between 1-2 damage.

Level 5+ with 18 Dex/Str

TWF = 3d6+12 = 22.5
GFW = 4d6+8 = 22 with rerolling 1s and 2s adding somewhere between 2-3 damage

Level 8 with a 20 Dex/Str and a +1 weapon

TWF = 3d6+17 = 27.5
GWF = 4d6+12 = 26 with rerolling 1s and 2s adding somewhere between 2-3 damage

Level 11 Fighter with a 20 Dex/Str and a +1 weapon

TWF = 4d6+23 = 37
GWF = 6d6+18 = 39 with rerolling 1s and 2s adding somewhere between 3-4 damage


The second you add feats, GWF is going to be roughly even if not better than TWF before level 5, and then vastly better afterwards.

The Duel Wielding feat is no match for GWM. Duel Wielder adds 1 more damage per attack whereas GWM adds like 6-7 after you calculate the extra misses from the -5.

Pretty much ANYthing that adds an extra attack whether it is from a class feature like War Cleric, Frenzy Bard, various Rangers, feats, attack of opportunity, and Action Surge wildly favors GWF.

I think Dual Wielder feat should have had the same "make an extra attack on a crit or KO" as the GWM feat has. THEN it would be at least close to being on the same level. It'd have to be a "free" attack though.

There are not very many ways to boost TWF. The Ranger is best at boosting it because it can add it's favored enemy bonus damage to every attack as well as Hunter's Mark. That's an extra 1d6+2 for each attack in best case scenario. Barbarian rage bonus damage too. Oddly enough, a Paladin 11 with TWF style from multiclassing is the best TWF in the game since it adds it's extra 1d8 Divine Strike to each attack as well as having access to Hunter's Mark and Divine Favor.


Not sure why you were bring up AC, the TWF with Dual Wielder is only going to have at best a +1 advantage.

[suplee215]

Assuming a 100% hit rate? Kay then.
I'll also assume the Fighter class but Barbarian Rage changes up the numbers somewhat.

Before Extra Attack, TWF does 2d6+8 vs 2d6+4 with each strike. Rerolling ones and twos brings the average of a d6 from 3.5 to roughly 4.
So TWF does about 15 damage per turn while GWF does 12.

At every Extra Attack level, TWF adds 1d6+4 while GWF adds 2d6+4.
So at fifth level, TWF is dealing 3d6+12 damage (average 22.5) per turn while GWF is dealing 4d6+8 (average 24).

Throw in Action Surge and TWF deals 5d6+20 (34.5) while GWF deals 8d6+16 (48).

And the gap keeps getting wider at every increase in Extra Attack and Action Surge.

You forgot to add in the dual wield feat that makes it d8s instead of d6s. So 3d8+12 (average 25.5) vs 24 for lvl 5 and with action surge 5d8+20 (42.5) to the 48. Still gets outpaced at higher level and GWM makes the math not worth doing if we assume a hit 100% of the time (+20 per round damage is insane).

[Xihirli]

You forgot to add in the dual wield feat that makes it d8s instead of d6s. So 3d8+12 (average 25.5) vs 24 for lvl 5 and with action surge 5d8+20 (42.5) to the 48. Still gets outpaced at higher level and GWM makes the math not worth doing if we assume a hit 100% of the time (+20 per round damage is insane).

If we're throwing in Dual Wielder we also throw in Great Weapon Master and it just stops even being a competition.

I went into this featless because I was being nice to TWF.

[Citan]

Which does more damage based on the following

1. Both have same stats let’s say 18 str for future reference A can also go Dexterity based finess if chosen
2. Both hit with all attacks.
3. Both are same. Fighter lvl 1 A had two weapon style and B has GWF
4. At lvl 5 A has duel wield and B has GWM
Both only have the above to use nothing else
5. Both start with chain mail (16) at lvl 1 plate mail (18)at lvl 5
6. A can have lesser armor for Dexterity based finess

Lvl 1
A is two weapon style 2 scimitar 1d6 (3) duel wield at 5
B is two handed weapon gwf great-sword 2d6 (6)at 5 gwm At

lvl 1
A. Has 2 attacks. 1+ bonus Action that’s +4 hit +4 damage (14) and an chain mail AC of 16 or if finess based AC st.leather 12+4=16
B. Has 1 attack +4 hit +4 damage (10) damage. and an chain mail AC of 16

At lvl 5
A has 2 attacks +1 bonus attack and now uses 2 Long swords 1d8(4) with str or keeps scimitar finesse based 1d6(3)
+1ac Str. based is +4 to hit +4 dam (24) damage and plate mail (18)plus duel wield +1 AC 19
Or finess based (21)with AC 17 st.leather duel wield
B has 2 attacks +4 hit + 4 damage 2d6(6) total 20 with plate mail AC 18 now GWM can give +10 damage per hit for (40)
That’s +20 damage. Yet even though I said they all hit. GWM gets -5 to hit to get the bonus. So if we take this into account there is a greater chance of missing. So let’s say 1 hits. That’s (30) damage

Which is better. For AC purpose not to get hit.
A and B equal at pre plate both chain mail,and stud leather at 16
Lvl 5 with plate mail A wins with 19 over 18 and finess loses 17 unde 18.
Damage based
Pre lvl 5 two weapon wins 14 over 10
Post 5. A wins with 24 or 21 and B has 20 without using the -5 to hit and +10 damage. But if calculated B wins hands down.
The main thing to determine is if the -5 to hit significantly reduces 1 or both attacks to hit. Which of course is based on the ac of target.
So if hitting high AC is paramount A wins if the ac is low B wins hands down for damage. So B needs to target low Ac and A can target both
With those factors. A is generally better than B. For a consistent hit factor.
What do you think

Hi!

I'm not sure I understand the preconceptions of this analysis...

1. Especially the "they always hit on all attacks"
are they supposed to always hit...
a) even, for GWM, when the malus/bonus effect is used?
b) just on normal attacks (no using third effect)?


2. Also the question of range, are you considering that melee attacks are possible...
a) 100% of the time?
b) 50% of the time?
c) Unpredictable?

3. Finally the question of threat, are you considering that dealing high damage should be the goal...
a) Whatever risks it may involve (because you gamble on killing enemy before it acts for example)?
b) As long as your life wouldn't be immediately threatened (for example because you act as a tank)?
c) Only if potential harm would be low until next turn?

Also, there are a number of other factors that come in play: ultimate number of attacks you can achieve, potential added effect on attack, multiclass etc...
But let's say, for the sake of making an analysis that could actually be used for real plays, that char will hit a ceiling at level 10, both are Fighters with the Battlemaster archetype (no spells, no increased crit), no multiclassing.

IF 1a+2a+3a = TRUE, then obviously GWM will be better.
IF 1a+(2b|1b)+(3a|~3b) = TRUE, then GWM will be better as long as he has allies that can help him and enemies meet face-to-face (boost his mobility with Haste/Fly, bring flyers to ground and bringing enemies closer with spells, abilities or grapple.

In all other cases, dual-wielding wins, at least for that particular character (Battlemaster Fighter <11) taken in relative isolation.
In a medium/large group (supposedly working together ^^), you can safely focus on "high risk high damage" first. And with other classes or multiclass things could be very different as well.
Even other Fighter archetypes may lead to different conclusions (especially Eldricht Knight).

Perks (especially for a Fighter that has more ASI and doesn't have 3rd attack yet):
1.No GWM means DEX or STR, so you can choose either (this is not a big deal since once you're set there is no real reason to change, but still).
a) If going STR, dual-wielder means...
- You have a much better chance of finding magic weapons that you can use, and possibly even one for each hand.
- You can otherwise use throwing weapons that double as good melee weapons so your effective reach is pretty decent.
- You are eligible for Sharpshooter if reach is often a problem, increasing your effective range to 120 feet with Javelins. This barely works (thanks to Dual Wielder) at the price of having no weapon off-turn every two rounds.
b) If going DEX, dual-wielder means...
- Well, basically everything being good at DEX usually provides...
- And real ability to fight at ranged over long time, which won't hit a brick if you get 3rd attack.

And dealing the same damage whether you throw a weapon or use it in melee is a big deal.
Enemy is out of melee reach? Check.
Enemy is dangerous for your health? Check.

Big obvious drawback though: you won't want to throw magic weapons usually, so that tactic will fall short later because enemies get resistant to physical damage. You could very well hold a good sword in one hand for melee and a magic staff that has ranged way of attacking in the other though. :)

2. No GWM means much lesser pressure on hit chance and mobility, meaning those Manoeuvers can be used without remorse on helper effects (Trip, Menacing, Pushing, Parry, Riposte or possibly Commander's Strike if Rogue/Paladin) instead of using them on Precision/Trip (essentially) and Evasive Footwork/Lunging (situationally).

3. Dual-wielding route means your bonus action attack is gotten consistently instead of waiting for 0 HP (which can be anticipated though) or crit (totally random by essence).

4. No GWM route means until you get Dual Wielder, when tough fights are coming, the opportunity cost of trading weapon attack for a shield is much lesser.

Basically, you're overall efficient consistently whatever situation you run into.