Solo: I've got a pretty good feeling about this!

[Peelee]

Nitpick, The Sith atttract Dark SIders like Ventress or the Inquisitors with the promise of becoming Sith Lords later on so it's more like half a dozen people.
For the others though? The Jedi rejects likely become Guardians of the Wills like Baze and Chirrut and those who actually slip below the Order's radar never realize they have untapped potential to begin with and go with their lives like Luke did with 20-years never believing they could lift rocks withtheir minds and therefore cannot.
Also the "millions of planet things" The Force has a will. People may get sensitive at least partially genetically but at the end of the end they are Force sensitive if the Force wills it so. Maybe the people in the places the Jedi don't go to are not Force sensitive because the Force arranges matters so they go where there are people it wants them to find?
That's a handwave of course but that's bound to happen whenever you have God or Fate as an active part of your story.

EDIT: Peelee, I am not disputing that there are learning and training happening, just that these are about how to lift rocks and read minds rather than how to control oneself or not.

Nitpick accepted! Also, Baze and Chirrut were canonically not Force-Sensitive, so there's zero untapped potential there. And as for the Force having a will... that's the claim of the Jedi, who are explicitly a religion, and I'd like to avoid going there.

Lastly, several of those quotes ("You have only begun to discover your power. Join me and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy!" or "Control, control, you must learn control!" or "Master Windu, how pleasant of you to join us. You're just in time for the moment of truth. I would think these two new boys of yours could use a little more training." or "Is it possible to learn this power?") very strongly imply that, yeah, you need training for lifting rocks and reading minds.

[Daimbert]

He trains him to sense things through the Force. By saying "stretch out with your feelings", "let go of your conscious self" and "your eyes can deceive you". Which is to mean "trust in the Force" not instructions you would get when training into a skill that takes actual practice to master like "it's leviosa not leviosa [with a precise hand movement]".

He only puts on the helmet after Luke tries and fails to properly deal with the remote with his eyes open. The purpose of the training is to get him using the Force to sense things instead of his eyes -- which can deceive him -- and then use that to guide his actions so that he can predict its movements and react accordingly with his lightsaber. All of which will be very, very important to lightsaber combat, as just one example. I don't think anyone is claiming that the main part of Jedi training is learning fencing techniques, but it does imply using the Force properly requires training in order for someone to be able to do any of that properly.

More of the same. Hell Yoda explictly states he fails because he doesn't believe it's possible.

He needs to learn to trust in the Force, but he already learned how to levitate objects and so had the basics down. He fails to raise the X-Wing because he thinks it's too big to be moved, but a big part of Yoda's training was moving from simple levitation to doing multiple levitations at once while balancing himself on one hand. You aren't going to be able to do that without practice and training, and Luke DOES progress in those abilities throughout the movie.

I don't see that only that the Jedi were afraid he'd fall to the Dark Side. And considering he passes a perfectly good shot to run off the fight and elects to pursue Vader rather than the friends he still thinks are captured I think their concerns are justified.

Luke gets curbstomped at the end of the battle with Vader, in large part because he doesn't have the skills to deflect the debris Vader tosses at him. And in RotJ, Yoda comments that it was unfortunate that Luke ran off before completing his training AFTER Luke returns and shows that he has not been turned to the Dark Side. The line about only a fully-trained Jedi being able to stop Vader and the Emperor hints more about them being afraid Vader will kill Luke rather than that they're simply afraid he'll turn. YES, there's that, too -- Obi-Wan explicitly mentions it -- but there's no real reason to treat that as the greatest concern.

NO he says his "skills are complete". And considering he didn't ask Yoda about his father in-between movies and is surprised by how bad he has aged in those six months I am pretty sure he did not receive additionnal training during that period.

He didn't build a lightsaber for himself in Empire, and Vader considers his having his own lightsaber as a major comment on his skills, he would have had to learn how to do it in-between movies from someone or something, that isn't specified. Thus, it is quite likely that he trained himself and practiced more between the movies. Generally, it is believed that he learned from materials Obi-Wan left in his home on Tatooine. But he pretty much HAD to have learned new things and practiced between the two movies.

Or greatest-pilot-in-the-galaxy-at-the-age-of-nine Anakin. Or Luke.

Anakin's great feats were mostly Force-guided luck, and he crashed every pod he raced until the last one. Luke did nothing at all impressive until he was trained, and even then nothing impressive until after his training with Yoda despite being trained by Obi-Wan. It doesn't seem to be just about believing you can do things, but knowing HOW to do it effectively.

To be fair, in TLJ Rey is still a pretty crappy lightsaber duelist ...

[Fyraltari]

Nitpick accepted! Also, Baze and Chirrut were canonically not Force-Sensitive, so there's zero untapped potential there.

Haven't we already had this discussion on another thread? I think there was something about Chirrut having "flashes" of Force-Sensitivity or some other such weirdness.
Anyways the "untapped potential" bit was not about the Guardian of the Wills but people like Joe, the Corellian policeman that I just made up who is Force sensitive but never met any other Force sensitive ans therefore never used the Force for anything because he didn't know he could.

And as for the Force having a will... that's the claim of the Jedi, who are explicitly a religion, and I'd like to avoid going there.

True, but the Sith and Snoke seem to share that belief.

Lastly, several of those quotes ("You have only begun to discover your power. Join me and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy!" or "Control, control, you must learn control!" or "Master Windu, how pleasant of you to join us. You're just in time for the moment of truth. I would think these two new boys of yours could use a little more training." or "Is it possible to learn this power?") very strongly imply that, yeah, you need training for lifting rocks and reading minds.

WItht he exception of the last one, not really. As for the last one I already conceded that the more esoteric stuff like Plagueis so-called immortality or that weird green magic require know-how.

He only puts on the helmet after Luke tries and fails to properly deal with the remote with his eyes open. The purpose of the training is to get him using the Force to sense things instead of his eyes -- which can deceive him -- and then use that to guide his actions so that he can predict its movements and react accordingly with his lightsaber. All of which will be very, very important to lightsaber combat, as just one example.

Yeah, and you know what doesn't happen in the scene? Ben teaching him how to use a lightsaber. Because, it's not the saber that's important in this scene it's the Force. It's equivalent of teaching a child to swim by throwing them in a pool and telling them to swim. If Luke doesn't use the Force he gets shocked. So what's important here is to convince Luke to use the Force at all.

I don't think anyone is claiming that the main part of Jedi training is learning fencing techniques, but it does imply using the Force properly requires training in order for someone to be able to do any of that properly.

Well, Zevox was claiming that an untrained Force-Wielder like Rey should not have been able to beat a trained (and heavily wounded) one like Ren. That I still don't see.

He needs to learn to trust in the Force, but he already learned how to levitate objects and so had the basics down.

Which he "taught" himself. ESB makes it look like a spur of the moment thing, the canon novel Heir to the Jedi has him coming up with the idea on his own (or maybe half remember legends, definitely isn't told by someone who would know first hand).

He fails to raise the X-Wing because he thinks it's too big to be moved, but a big part of Yoda's training was moving from simple levitation to doing multiple levitations at once while balancing himself on one hand.

I'd like alink to the scene where Yoda makes him do "simple" levitation as opposed from lifting several stones and doing a handstand.

You aren't going to be able to do that without practice and training

Says you. Okay you are not going to be able to do a handstand without practice and training but that's not the point, is it?

and Luke DOES progress in those abilities throughout the movie.

Yeah 'cause he is accepting this stuff does work. Also I don't think he could focus as much in the cave than in the swamp, what with the monster and all.

Luke gets curbstomped at the end of the battle with Vader, in large part because he doesn't have the skills to deflect the debris Vader tosses at him.

In the next movie he beats Vader without additionnal training so what's your point?

And in RotJ, Yoda comments that it was unfortunate that Luke ran off before completing his training AFTER Luke returns and shows that he has not been turned to the Dark Side.

Yes 'cause know he knows Vader is his father and feels attavhed to him, which a Jedi like Yoda or Obi-Wan wouldn't shouldn't be and they are afraid it means he won't kill him but try to redeem him, something they think impossible.

The line about only a fully-trained Jedi being able to stop Vader and the Emperor hints more about them being afraid Vader will kill Luke rather than that they're simply afraid he'll turn.

Or that they are afraid the Emperor will play mind games with him and succeed turning him, which would fail to stop "Vader and his Emperor".
You'll notice that Luke is recognized as a Jedi not when he defeats Vader in single combat but once he resists the allure of the Dark Side by throwing his weapon away.

YES, there's that, too -- Obi-Wan explicitly mentions it -- but there's no real reason to treat that as the greatest concern.

You mean, beside the fact that the film suggests Luke is turning to the Dark Side?

He didn't build a lightsaber for himself in Empire, and Vader considers his having his own lightsaber as a major comment on his skills, he would have had to learn how to do it in-between movies from someone or something, that isn't specified.

Heir to the Jedi has him find and take apart a deceased Jedi's lightsaber, before ESB, with the eventual goal of building his own.

Thus, it is quite likely that he trained himself and practiced more between the movies. Generally, it is believed that he learned from materials Obi-Wan left in his home on Tatooine.

First time I hear that one. RotJ gave me the impression that he had never returned to Tatooine, but it isn't stated either way. However the comic book Darth Vader (also canon) has Vader burn down Kenobi's abode shortly after ANH.

But he pretty much HAD to have learned new things and practiced between the two movies.

How to operate and maintain a robotic hand for one.
But really it looks like we're turning in circle here, you are asserting Luke becoming a better FOrce-Wielder was because of training and I assert it's because he opened himself to the Force more neither you nor I will move from that so can't we agree to disagree?

Anakin's great feats were mostly Force-guided luck, and he crashed every pod he raced until the last one. Luke did nothing at all impressive until he was trained, and even then nothing impressive until after his training with Yoda despite being trained by Obi-Wan. It doesn't seem to be just about believing you can do things, but knowing HOW to do it effectively.

Bullseyeing less than two-meters wide womp rats in Beggar's Canyon on a speeder and taking out the Death Star are impressive to me.

[Peelee]

Haven't we already had this discussion on another thread? I think there was something about Chirrut having "flashes" of Force-Sensitivity or some other such weirdness.
Anyways the "untapped potential" bit was not about the Guardian of the Wills but people like Joe, the Corellian policeman that I just made up who is Force sensitive but never met any other Force sensitive ans therefore never used the Force for anything because he didn't know he could.

Except children exist. Lord knows I tried to use the Force when I was a kid (and far too old for the Jedi to take in), and that was because of a movie. If I lived in a universe where space wizards actually existed? Hell, I'd probably still be trying!

True, but the Sith and Snoke seem to share that belief.

Eh, Sith and Jedi are kind of two halves of the same coin, so that stands to reason. As for Snoke... as presented, dude's a joke.

WItht he exception of the last one, not really. As for the last one I already conceded that the more esoteric stuff like Plagueis so-called immortality or that weird green magic require know-how.

Except now you have the arbitrary line of what's more esoteric and what isn't.

Even then, Vader openly says "you are weak, let me train you," and you don't think that means "hey, spunky kid who really believes he can take me on, you need training to be able to do that?" We could draw a parallel between my and Bruce Lee here. The Force is like our fighting ability. We both have the potential to fight. I can punch. I can kick. I can throw. But I'm not gonna freaking touch Bruce Lee because I have zero training. Now, that doesn't mean that I can't push someone away if they run up on me all of a sudden, or if I get really emotional and try to tear into somebody. But I'm not going to be entering any Karate Kid tournaments even if someone teaches me how to properly throw a punch, ya know?

[Jayngfet]

Going by current canon Chirrut is as far as he'd ever have gotten. He spent his whole life in an actual temple with thousands of years of history and its own archives. He went through rigorous training and rites roughly equivalent to what Jedi do. He gets occasional flashes after that many decades and is totally incapable of progressing further because he can't actively manipulate the force, can't be chosen by any of the crystals he keeps, and is only capable of doing tricks equivalent to what younglings a and initiates do, and their training intentionally holds back on more advanced things.

Contrast this with an actual force sensitive like Hedala Fardi who can use telekenesis at age like four and a bunch of rando's trained by mostly Padawans and remnants in the imperial period who can do far more impressive things with way less training, as we see in not just Rebels but a few comics as well. Tuning crystals, a thing Chirrut is incapable of, is something done by twelve year olds in the Jedi order.

Force sensitive characters can just plain do more with less than people who believe in the force and train in it, but aren't sensitive.

Ultimately the problem with Rey isn't that she can use a few specific tricks or has some set skill level, it's that she can beat or match people who are sensitive AND trained despite not having the latter.

[Mightymosy]

Nitpick, The Sith atttract Dark SIders like Ventress or the Inquisitors with the promise of becoming Sith Lords later on so it's more like half a dozen people.
For the others though? The Jedi rejects likely become Guardians of the Wills like Baze and Chirrut and those who actually slip below the Order's radar never realize they have untapped potential to begin with and go with their lives like Luke did with 20-years never believing they could lift rocks withtheir minds and therefore cannot.
Also the "millions of planet things" The Force has a will. People may get sensitive at least partially genetically but at the end of the end they are Force sensitive if the Force wills it so. Maybe the people in the places the Jedi don't go to are not Force sensitive because the Force arranges matters so they go where there are people it wants them to find?
That's a handwave of course but that's bound to happen whenever you have God or Fate as an active part of your story.


Agreed. And sorry about the Grievous GIF earlier, the thing just cracks me up so I tend to use it even when the person I'm talking to is not really annoying.
And I just figured out how to use GIF on this site.


Deine training. Again Jedi training looks more like "how to live" than "how to use the Force".
Though the Nightsisters' magic and Sith Sorcery sounds like they require actual rituals and stuff, maybe they're just window dressing maybe they're actually needed but those uses are not what we are discussing here and never show up in the movies anyway.

And yeah Rey has to be told it's real but she still grew up literally living inside the tales of the Rebellion and the Jedi once Han confirmed that yes it is 100% real and Kylo Ren gets in her mind and she repells him (instictively I'm guessing) she believe in it utterly unlikely Luke who still had doubts by the time he went to Bespin.

The Force is magic and god all rolled into one (like many real belief systems actually).
The Resistance/Alliance/Empire/First Order/Republic/Separatists are mundane. One can get a serving of realism, the other should not. Care to guess which?

He trains him to sense things through the Force. By saying "stretch out with your feelings", "let go of your conscious self" and "your eyes can deceive you". Which is to mean "trust in the Force" not instructions you would get when training into a skill that takes actual practice to master like "it's leviosa not leviosa [with a precise hand movement]".

More of the same. Hell Yoda explictly states he fails because he doesn't believe it's possible.

I don't see that only that the Jedi were afraid he'd fall to the Dark Side. And considering he passes a perfectly good shot to run off the fight and elects to pursue Vader rather than the friends he still thinks are captured I think their concerns are justified.

NO he says his "skills are complete". And considering he didn't ask Yoda about his father in-between movies and is surprised by how bad he has aged in those six months I am pretty sure he did not receive additionnal training during that period.

That's actually a good point. Then again it could be that Yoda had a premonition that Anakin was dangerous for the Order.


NO it's pretty clearly "trust the Force/yourself", "use your feelings and instinct rather than reason and senses" and "focus on the now".

Or greatest-pilot-in-the-galaxy-at-the-age-of-nine Anakin. Or Luke.

EDIT: Peelee, I am not disputing that there are learning and training happening, just that these are about how to lift rocks and read minds rather than how to control oneself or not.

On phone, so little writing, even less editing. Sorry.

Fair point on dividing magic and non-magic, if you want to.

One honest question though:
Can you imagine original Luke, or original Leia, in the OT, electroshocking fleeing people?
Or issuing the command, sitting on the admiral chair: "Oh, and by the way, officer Tico: If anyone tries to run away in escape pods, stop them immediately. Permission to use violent force granted."

I really have a hard time picturing either character do that.

I like your idea of the escape pods having 20 seats or so.
I would be ALOT more sympathetic with the movie if Rose said:
"By taking this one alone, you possibly condem 19 other people to death, that's why I need to stop you."
But I dont think she does. And the things look small.

Alternatively, make this be about Rose being angry about her sister. Unfortunatley this isnt elaborated further.
Even worse, in the end she says one should save the people one likey and not kill the ones you hate - and forcibly stops Finn from doing exactly that.

[Devonix]

Could I see Luke or Leia doing something like stunning someone trying to jump ship? hmm, Luke no, Leia maybe. Han and R2D2 most certainly.

[Daimbert]

Yeah, and you know what doesn't happen in the scene? Ben teaching him how to use a lightsaber. Because, it's not the saber that's important in this scene it's the Force. It's equivalent of teaching a child to swim by throwing them in a pool and telling them to swim. If Luke doesn't use the Force he gets shocked. So what's important here is to convince Luke to use the Force at all.

No, what's important is Luke being trained to recognize the Force and use it for specific tasks and actions, to guide it to his will. No one will be able to do that effectively in specific cases without practice and specific training, no matter how much natural affinity they have for it.

Look, to me the key debate here is not over what SPECIFICALLY gets trained, but over how much one can develop strong Force abilities without training in or practicing those specific abilities. The key with Rey is that she beat a fully trained Force user of the same rough power level as her without ANY training in how to fight with a lightsaber, using the Force or not. And it doesn't seem to be that you can just "believe that you can do something" because there are specific tasks that you need to learn, like keeping your concentration through distractions -- that's what Yoda chides Luke for, remember? -- and controlling the ability. In order to become a strong Force user, you need to train in Force use and how to use the Force to achieve specific ends. Rey skips all of that, and there is no evidence that all it is is a matter of believing that she can do it, nor are the things she does things that can just happen instinctively.

Well, Zevox was claiming that an untrained Force-Wielder like Rey should not have been able to beat a trained (and heavily wounded) one like Ren. That I still don't see.

She shouldn't have been. He's at least as strong in the Force as she is, has been fully trained and so knows how to not let wounds break his concentration, and is in pain which is a power source for Dark Side users. She has no idea how to open herself to the Force and use the Force to guide her through lightsaber combat. I'd find it credible if she was going up against someone who was significantly less powerful in the Force than she was -- since it would be overpowering instinctive moves vs actual training -- but Ren isn't less powerful. If it was made clear that it was just the waiting game, only instinctively parrying until he ran out of endurance so she could escape, that would be fine as well. I don't think that's your argument, though.

There has always been a clash in the Force between training and instinct. In general, instinct and Force ability can equal someone who doesn't have the Force and is trained. But the entire OT and PT make it clear that a properly trained Jedi who practices their techniques is going to far superior to one who isn't trained, by far.

Which he "taught" himself. ESB makes it look like a spur of the moment thing, the canon novel Heir to the Jedi has him coming up with the idea on his own (or maybe half remember legends, definitely isn't told by someone who would know first hand).

You can't use Heir to the Jedi because it seems to me that the debate here is that the old canon establishes that training is really important whereas especially for Rey the new canon tries to claim that it isn't. I haven't read that book and so am utterly ill-equipped to assess what the example would mean, anyway.

I'd like alink to the scene where Yoda makes him do "simple" levitation as opposed from lifting several stones and doing a handstand.

I hate the links to youtube thing -- you doing it to me was annoying -- and so am not going to go and look that up. I think there was an earlier scene that was similar to that where he was doing less impressive things, but that might have been in the novelization instead. However, it was later in his training and the training showed a clear progression where complications were added piece by piece. For your theory to hold, you'd have to believe that Luke could go from barely grasping a lightsaber and making it fly to his hand to that WITHOUT extra practice in levitating objects. Again, I'm not claiming that the practice is about mundane practicality like fencing lessons, but is about learning how to channel the Force to do specific things and maintain that control. Rey had none of that training.

Says you. Okay you are not going to be able to do a handstand without practice and training but that's not the point, is it?

Ya wanna tone down the hostility a bit there?

Also, the implication is that the handstand is ITSELF Force guided/aided. By your own argument, he should indeed be able to do it if he believes he can using the Force, and so wouldn't NEED practice and training.

Yeah 'cause he is accepting this stuff does work. Also I don't think he could focus as much in the cave than in the swamp, what with the monster and all.

I have no idea what the last sentence is referring to, but for the former, it's more likely that he has learned to use the Force to accomplish those things and has practiced doing it so that tapping into the Force to do it has become second nature to him, like we see with sports stars in any sport. But that all takes practice and training. There is NO indication that he merely has to "believe hard enough" and these things will just happen. Again, trained Jedi have always been better at these things than untrained Jedi have, and Masters are better at those things than Padawans are, implying that training, practice and experience matter.

In the next movie he beats Vader without additionnal training so what's your point?

Except he had to have had additional practice and training in order to build his lightsaber. And when he returns to Yoda to complete his training Yoda says that he doesn't need anymore while saying IN THE SAME CONVERSATION that Luke didn't complete his training with Yoda. Luke clearly becomes better at using the Force between Empire and RotJ, and that comes through practice and training.

Yes 'cause know he knows Vader is his father and feels attavhed to him, which a Jedi like Yoda or Obi-Wan wouldn't shouldn't be and they are afraid it means he won't kill him but try to redeem him, something they think impossible.

But your main argument is that they were only worried that without completing his training he'd fall to Dark Side -- or, at least, that was their primary fear -- and not that he'd die in the attempt. As it turns out, Luke was far closer to dying than he was to actually turning to the Dark Side (although even he admits that he'd probably give in if he'd been captured the last time). My argument is that they were afraid he'd lose the fight because he wasn't skilled enough to defeat them. He IS skilled enough to defeat them in RotJ but the Dark Side threat is far more pronounced.

Or that they are afraid the Emperor will play mind games with him and succeed turning him, which would fail to stop "Vader and his Emperor".

That would be a rather vague and ambiguous way to say that, and also doesn't fit well with "There is another" who would potentially have to face all three of them. And as per RotJ the fear seems to be that Luke will be unable to kill Vader and the Emperor, which is what they all think has to be done as they can't be turned. His falling to the Dark Side would make things worse, but simply not killing them and running away like Yoda and Obi-Wan did will be as bad. In short, they're afraid he'll fail the way they did and the galaxy will remain in darkness.

You'll notice that Luke is recognized as a Jedi not when he defeats Vader in single combat but once he resists the allure of the Dark Side by throwing his weapon away.

Sure. Not sure what the relevance of that was, as at that point Luke WAS really acting out of Dark Side emotions. But an unemotional battle where he killed Vader and the Emperor would not have been Dark Side at all, and that's what they wanted him to do.

You mean, beside the fact that the film suggests Luke is turning to the Dark Side?

The suggestions that Luke is turning don't really happen to RotJ. At worst, Luke is convinced that he WILL be turned if Vader captures him at the end, but he isn't strongly Dark Side nor does the movie suggest it until RotJ.

Heir to the Jedi has him find and take apart a deceased Jedi's lightsaber, before ESB, with the eventual goal of building his own.

This wouldn't even help your case, though, since it implies direct, conscious learning and practice, none of which Rey has when she does her more impressive feats, like beating Kylo Ren or completely mind controlling the storm trooper.

First time I hear that one. RotJ gave me the impression that he had never returned to Tatooine, but it isn't stated either way. However the comic book Darth Vader (also canon) has Vader burn down Kenobi's abode shortly after ANH.

Again, you can't use new canon ... but I can't use Legends either, so call it a wash [grin]. At any rate, Luke still has to learn to and actually build a lightsaber between Empire and RotJ, which implies that he's working on his skills and abilities and practicing them. No one is claiming that a Jedi cannot learn things on their own -- as an example, Rey turning her normal weapon practice into practice with a lightsaber is not at all objectionable -- but you seem to be claiming that she doesn't really need practice of any kind, even on her own, since she doesn't indeed practice them at all until she does them and you think that consistent. So talking about training on their own isn't helping your case, as SOME kind of specific training or practice seems to be required.

But really it looks like we're turning in circle here, you are asserting Luke becoming a better FOrce-Wielder was because of training and I assert it's because he opened himself to the Force more neither you nor I will move from that so can't we agree to disagree?

It is quite annoying for you to make a long response with counterpoints and then, at the end, ask to "agree to disagree" when you clearly do not agree to that. Additionally, this is essentially our second exchange so how can we be going in circles yet? ESPECIALLY since it isn't clear what each of us is arguing, as I've never denied the importance of opening oneself up to the Force and was EXPLICIT that training is important but that what exactly is being trained is ambiguous, but that Rey HAD NO TRAINING WHATSOEVER, either in specific Force techniques, using the Force to do specific things, or in opening herself up to the Force. The OT and PT imply that you need training EVEN IN OPENING YOURSELF UP TO THE FORCE to be successful, which is what you seem to be denying, or at least arguing that Rey somehow did that all by her lonesome.

Bullseyeing less than two-meters wide womp rats in Beggar's Canyon on a speeder and taking out the Death Star are impressive to me.

Luke doesn't think the former is impressive because he relates it to Wedge when Wedge thinks hitting a two meter target is too difficult. If that was something only Luke could do on Tatooine, he wouldn't have mentioned it. Luke's not bragging there, but is instead essentially saying "It's not that hard". As for the Death Star, that was indeed a one shot instinctive reaction that Luke is still TALKED THROUGH by Obi-Wan. None of that is true for Rey defeating Kylo Ren or mind controlling the storm trooper.

[Peelee]

You can't use Heir to the Jedi because it seems to me that the debate here is that the old canon establishes that training is really important whereas especially for Rey the new canon tries to claim that it isn't. I haven't read that book and so am utterly ill-equipped to assess what the example would mean, anyway.

I, on the other hand, have read that book! Fun fact, in Heir to the Jedi Luke spends the whole book (along with doing stuff for the main plot) trying to lift so much as a single noodle with the Force, at one point completely and absolutely believing that he's doing it only to find out it hasnt budged. And when he is able to move it, it's in small increments with really shaky control over it, akin to a baby using their hands.

Which makes it a really inconvenient reference if one wants to say "it's totally legit that Rey can Force grab a lightsaber away from Ben an hour after discovering she could use the Force."

[Daimbert]

I, on the other hand, have read that book! Fun fact, in Heir to the Jedi Luke spends the whole book (along with doing stuff for the main plot) trying to lift so much as a single noodle with the Force, at one point completely and absolutely believing that he's doing it only to find out it hasnt budged. And when he is able to move it, it's in small increments with really shaky control over it, akin to a baby using their hands.

Which makes it a really inconvenient reference if one wants to say "it's totally legit that Rey can Force grab a lightsaber away from Ben an hour after discovering she could use the Force."

Yeah, in general the old canon and Legends established that if you didn't believe you could do it you weren't going to be able to do it, but that even if you believed you could do it didn't mean that you were necessarily going to succeed at it. All things are possible through the Force, but you have to know how to manipulate the Force properly to do all things.

As an aside, the best example of this sort of thing, to me, comes from Legends, and I, Jedi, where Corran Horn has been having lots and lots of trouble with even SIMPLE telekinesis, sets up a huge challenge for himself because he feels that that is what's going to help him actually achieve it, struggles to lift it, senses that he's lifted it, senses that the others believe that he's lifted it ... and then opens his eyes to see that the rock is still firmly in the ground. He's disappointed ... and then notices that EVERYONE ELSE is actually looking at where the rock WOULD be if he had actually lifted it instead of where it is. It turns out that he inadvertently created an illusion in all of their minds that he had done it, which is a Force ability he has an affinity for whereas he has LITTLE skill with telekinesis.

And that's pretty much, to me, how the Force works. Before he realizes that he's Force sensitive, Corran inadvertently uses the mind trick once to make a storm trooper complain about searching where he is, and overlooking him in his hiding spot that isn't a great spot. Then, here, the huge assault on his ego triggers him using it again for a more impressive feat instinctively. But he still needs to learn how to use it, and being overconfident in its use gets him in trouble later. The problem with Rey is that she needs to use it too consciously and deliberately for not having any idea how any of this works. Wishing, say, that the storm trooper would just let her go and having him come in, do that, and leave would work as an instinctive move, but she does far more and that far more deliberately than that, and the fight didn't seem to me to be just instinctive reactions. But conscious, deliberate action requires practice in doing those things consciously and deliberately, which Rey doesn't have.

[Zalabim]

I, on the other hand, think that a lot of "jedi arts" that people talk about training in is skills that are unrelated or tangential to using the force like mental discipline, diplomacy, and how to fight with a lightsaber. I think Greivous is probably talking exactly about fighting with a lightsaber. I also recognize that several scenes in TFA are supposed to be taken as steps along Rey's path of learning and training, such as the advice she was given by Maz Kanata, and the mental clashes with Kylo Ren, culminating in her moment of really opening up to the Force in the final fight. Opening up to the dark side of the force in the end, apparently, which fits with the movie's idea of treating Han as a father figure for her. At the same time, Kylo Ren is conflicted about killing his actual father, or having trouble using the Force for some other reason, and holding back from actually killing her when he can.

[Saintheart]

I, on the other hand, think that a lot of "jedi arts" that people talk about training in is skills that are unrelated or tangential to using the force like mental discipline, diplomacy, and how to fight with a lightsaber. I think Greivous is probably talking exactly about fighting with a lightsaber. I also recognize that several scenes in TFA are supposed to be taken as steps along Rey's path of learning and training, such as the advice she was given by Maz Kanata, and the mental clashes with Kylo Ren, culminating in her moment of really opening up to the Force in the final fight. Opening up to the dark side of the force in the end, apparently, which fits with the movie's idea of treating Han as a father figure for her. At the same time, Kylo Ren is conflicted about killing his actual father, or having trouble using the Force for some other reason, and holding back from actually killing her when he can.

There are three references to the "Jedi arts" in the films: twice in Phantom Menace, and once in ROTS. In the first one, it's Qui-Gon Jinn himself speaking first to Obi-Wan and then to the Jedi Council about Darth Maul. Both times, the assertion is essentially that because Maul is well-trained in the Jedi Arts, he must therefore be a Sith Lord. I think it's reasonable to conclude Qui-Gon isn't just talking about lightsaber combat, he's talking about close to the full suite of powers -- a being that can draw on the Force, has the focus to use it well, and one that's been taught to fight exceptionally well with a lightsaber.

In ROTS, as said, it's Grievous. But the only reason -- on film -- that he thinks he's trained in the Jedi Arts is because Count Dooku presumably said so. Grievous himself is a catspaw, though, as is Dooku himself. It's entirely possible that Grievous has been deceived to think that "Jedi arts" is just being able to swing lightsabers with machine precision. The moment Grievous gets any Force technique applied against him -- Obi-Wan's Force push, Anakin pulling their lightsabers off him -- he has zero defences against it.

Even ESB suggests there are different steps along the road of mastering Force use, per Luke and Ben:
"I feel the Force!"
"But you cannot control it. This is a dangerous time for you, when you will be tempted by the Dark Side of the Force."

[Lord Joeltion]

There are three references to the "Jedi arts" in the films: twice in Phantom Menace, and once in ROTS. In the first one, it's Qui-Gon Jinn himself speaking first to Obi-Wan and then to the Jedi Council about Darth Maul. Both times, the assertion is essentially that because Maul is well-trained in the Jedi Arts, he must therefore be a Sith Lord. I think it's reasonable to conclude Qui-Gon isn't just talking about lightsaber combat, he's talking about close to the full suite of powers -- a being that can draw on the Force, has the focus to use it well, and one that's been taught to fight exceptionally well with a lightsaber.

In ROTS, as said, it's Grievous. But the only reason -- on film -- that he thinks he's trained in the Jedi Arts is because Count Dooku presumably said so. Grievous himself is a catspaw, though, as is Dooku himself. It's entirely possible that Grievous has been deceived to think that "Jedi arts" is just being able to swing lightsabers with machine precision. The moment Grievous gets any Force technique applied against him -- Obi-Wan's Force push, Anakin pulling their lightsabers off him -- he has zero defences against it.

Even ESB suggests there are different steps along the road of mastering Force use, per Luke and Ben:
"I feel the Force!"
"But you cannot control it. This is a dangerous time for you, when you will be tempted by the Dark Side of the Force."

Obviously "Jedi arts" is an umbrella term for more than just Force techniques. I always understood Grievous quote as "I know the weaknesses of LS Forms and how to exploit them". It's kinda obvious that Grievous, being 99% machine, has no way of interacting with the Force (even if he could in life, he would probably have lost any connection with the Force anyway). It's worth noting that at the time, the canon pretty much established that there were forms of fencing that relied on the Force more than the others; and some which probably relied on it very little or indirectly. Since Grievous is supposed to have defeated/posed a threat a lot of masters of different forms; it is pretty much obvious he trained enough in the Jedi ways of LS combat as a non-force user.

---

I think the people who defend the theory that the Force never required any training; are confusing the term "training" with going to a gym; and comparing "becoming stronger in the Force" as "gaining muscle". But the Force can't be like muscle, and the canon (and Legends) pretty much denies that possibility. You never have a "certain amount of Force within you"; rather, Force powers allow you to channel/wield the Force that comes from the universe. I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that. But there are others connotations for the word "training".

Take for instance, training your scientific skills. You don't get "stronger" in your knowledge. Rather, you get rid of your own misconceptions so you can use your rational skills (which are basically innate) in a more accurate way. Sports that rely less on stamina/strength and more on technique also require this philosophy of training: removing the bad habits that make you commit gross/minor mistakes and gaining enough experience in different situations so you can naturally provide a quicker response that is better suited. This is the case for some martial arts, chess, shooting, ice skating, etc.

That is also "training" and the point of that is removing the flaws of those who are simply ignorant of how to face common scenarios. That's why a lot of martial arts are more about repeating the same figure over and over until your body flawlessly execute that movement unconsciously, so your rational brain can focus on more important things like strategy. "Training" in martial arts usually isn't about "becoming stronger", it's about perfecting execution. It is less like lifting weights and more like sculpting yourself. I think that is what Jedi/Sith/Adepts mean when they speaking about "becoming stronger in the Force" and "training your skills". It's not that you get more Mana Points or that you Level Up your abilities. You simply attune your connection with the Force in a more perfect way, until having a vision or lifting an X-wing becomes just like breathing. It's not about believing, it's about letting yourself go.

And that is what I can't buy about Rey becoming so naturally attuned in the Force with little to no justification. She simply has to believe. That's not how the Force is depicted in any of the SW stories. It's how Peter Pan flies. The genre dissonance is way too strong in that girl.

[Olinser]

Obviously "Jedi arts" is an umbrella term for more than just Force techniques. I always understood Grievous quote as "I know the weaknesses of LS Forms and how to exploit them". It's kinda obvious that Grievous, being 99% machine, has no way of interacting with the Force (even if he could in life, he would probably have lost any connection with the Force anyway). It's worth noting that at the time, the canon pretty much established that there were forms of fencing that relied on the Force more than the others; and some which probably relied on it very little or indirectly. Since Grievous is supposed to have defeated/posed a threat a lot of masters of different forms; it is pretty much obvious he trained enough in the Jedi ways of LS combat as a non-force user.

---

I think the people who defend the theory that the Force never required any training; are confusing the term "training" with going to a gym; and comparing "becoming stronger in the Force" as "gaining muscle". But the Force can't be like muscle, and the canon (and Legends) pretty much denies that possibility. You never have a "certain amount of Force within you"; rather, Force powers allow you to channel/wield the Force that comes from the universe. I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that. But there are others connotations for the word "training".

Take for instance, training your scientific skills. You don't get "stronger" in your knowledge. Rather, you get rid of your own misconceptions so you can use your rational skills (which are basically innate) in a more accurate way. Sports that rely less on stamina/strength and more on technique also require this philosophy of training: removing the bad habits that make you commit gross/minor mistakes and gaining enough experience in different situations so you can naturally provide a quicker response that is better suited. This is the case for some martial arts, chess, shooting, ice skating, etc.

That is also "training" and the point of that is removing the flaws of those who are simply ignorant of how to face common scenarios. That's why a lot of martial arts are more about repeating the same figure over and over until your body flawlessly execute that movement unconsciously, so your rational brain can focus on more important things like strategy. "Training" in martial arts usually isn't about "becoming stronger", it's about perfecting execution. It is less like lifting weights and more like sculpting yourself. I think that is what Jedi/Sith/Adepts mean when they speaking about "becoming stronger in the Force" and "training your skills". It's not that you get more Mana Points or that you Level Up your abilities. You simply attune your connection with the Force in a more perfect way, until having a vision or lifting an X-wing becomes just like breathing. It's not about believing, it's about letting yourself go.

And that is what I can't buy about Rey becoming so naturally attuned in the Force with little to no justification. She simply has to believe. That's not how the Force is depicted in any of the SW stories. It's how Peter Pan flies. The genre dissonance is way too strong in that girl.

Yes. That's always been my problem with Rey. Not that she's not allowed to use Force powers, but that what she uses is WAY out of whack with what she should credibly be able to use (once it was established that she is, in fact, a nobody from nowhere that has never had any suppressed training).

And the worst part is that her Force usage could have been replaced with plenty of other things that allowed her to continue just fine WITHOUT her being a stupid Mary Sue Most Bestest At Everything Ever.

Instead of her magically being able to turn the Force interrogation around and actually READ KYLO'S MIND, it would have been just fine if she'd resisted the mind probe and punched him in the face with the Force. Natural resistance to Force techniques would be fine, and instinctively using the Force to lash out crudely when under attack is also fine.

But no. She's known she can use the Force less than a day, is better at using the Force than Kylo.

Then the same thing with the guard. There are several solutions to this problem that DON'T involve accessing an active Force power to make the guard do not one, but TWO things massively counter to his nature. Obi Wan just convinced a guard he didn't need to waste his time. The aforementioned example with Corran likewise just instinctively convinced the already annoyed guard searching for him that he didn't need to search every stupid hiding place. But Rey not only convinced a guard to release a prisoner (and brave Kylo's wrath), but GIVE HER HIS WEAPON. That's just ludicrous.

And again, it DIDN'T NEED TO BE THAT WAY. They can't keep her in the chair forever, she'd need the bathroom if nothing else, she'd just need to wait for the guard to move her and beat his ass (as we've previously seen her close combat skills demonstrated). Or, crudely use the force to smash/rip her bonds off and THEN beat the guard's ass.

And its like that with everything else - they weren't content with her just keeping the TIE fighters from blowing her up and Finn shooting them down. No, no, no. She has to perform ludicrously precise aerial flying in an unfamiliar vessel despite an explicit acknowledgement that she's NEVER LEFT THE PLANET. I would have thought the move was stupid if they'd had Han do it, with decades of experience with the Falcon. Having Rey do it was just utterly ridiculous and something out of a bad fanfic. (And yes, Han manually coming out of lightspeed right on top of the planet was equally stupid).

That's the problem. They weren't content with making Rey powerful and skilled. They had to make her the best at everything, even when the plot flows better and along the same lines by having her be LESS effective.

[Peelee]

Obviously "Jedi arts" is an umbrella term for more than just Force techniques. I always understood Grievous quote as "I know the weaknesses of LS Forms and how to exploit them". It's kinda obvious that Grievous, being 99% machine, has no way of interacting with the Force (even if he could in life, he would probably have lost any connection with the Force anyway). It's worth noting that at the time, the canon pretty much established that there were forms of fencing that relied on the Force more than the others; and some which probably relied on it very little or indirectly. Since Grievous is supposed to have defeated/posed a threat a lot of masters of different forms; it is pretty much obvious he trained enough in the Jedi ways of LS combat as a non-force user.

Spoiler: The Jedi Arts

Show

[Fyraltari]

Daimbert you are right that I have been unfair withyou earlier, and for that I apologize.

I don't really have an excuse except that I had been having that conversation with Zevox and Peelee for a while and from my point of view it felt like retreading old ground.

Generally speaking, for a while now I have had the feeling that I only came to this forum to argue with people over Star Wars and, more importantly, that it wasn't fun to me anymore which made me snappier and meaner than I usually am.


I think it best that I stop posting in the Star Wars threads for a while.
Have fun without me!

[Peelee]

I think it best that I stop posting in the Star Wars threads for a while.
Have fun without me!

Awww. I know we don't agree on some things (and debate said disagreements a lot) but I still like nerding out with Star Wars with you.

Of course, I haven't had any ire directed at me, so that probably helps.

[Fyraltari]

Awww. I know we don't agree on some things (and debate said disagreements a lot) but I still like nerding out with Star Wars with you.

Of course, I haven't had any ire directed at me, so that probably helps.

Awwwww, thank you don't worry I still like to nerd out, it just like it has been only star wars recently and people (starting with me) have more heated opinions on that than on many other things. Don't fret about it. I just need to space it a bit to charge my batteries up; I'll be back in a month or so (finishing my internship and ,fingers crossed, getting my driver's license will surely help as well).

[Peelee]

Awwwww, thank you don't worry I still like to nerd out, it just like it has been only star wars recently and people (starting with me) have more heated opinions on that than on many other things. Don't fret about it. I just need to space it a bit to charge my batteries up; I'll be back in a month or so (finishing my internship and ,fingers crossed, getting my driver's license will surely help as well).

Good luck on the internship and license! Also, if you heed to take a break, might I recommend using that time to watch some Star Wars?

[Fyraltari]

Thank you.
That made me giggle. Unfortunately, I'm on a Doctor Who marathon, right now (just reached the Fifth Doctor).

[Fyraltari]

Well would you look at what a friend just sent me:

Isn't it a small world?

[Daimbert]

Daimbert you are right that I have been unfair withyou earlier, and for that I apologize.

Don't worry about it; I wasn't really offended, but was more expressing a "Hey, wait a minute!" reaction.

Enjoy your break and hope the things you need to do work out.