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  1. - Top - End - #121
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I don't need to. You position that something will happen because it hasn't happened yet is irrational.
    That's not my position and frankly I'm surprised, given what I know of your posts in general, that you would say that. You have struck me as a good faith participant so far in other threads, and yet here we are...
    Because there is no such thing as an invisible market hand that will force companies to change their ways.
    When I mentioned social media and making companies notice, I wasn't talking about an invisible market hand. I was talking about all of the women you seem to believe exist that are clamoring for pants with pockets. They can force companies to change their ways.
    The fashion industry big players, like all big market players everywhere, are conservative. They sell what sold well in the past. They have no incentive to break into new markets because they are already at the top, and barrier entries prevent others from making a dent.
    Okay, this is a very good argument. I concede to you. Women will never, ever, ever, be able to walk into a clothing store and pick up a pair of jeans from the shelf with pockets in them. There is no hope. All is lost in the movement to get women's pants with pockets in them. Why are we even talking about this? It will never come to pass!!!
    In short, they don't put pockets in women's clothes because they've never put pockets in women's clothes. This hypothesis matches reality much better than your pie-in-the-sky "capitalism will fix sexist tendencies in the fashion industry", just like capitalism has failed to make that change in other markets (video games, film, business word, etc).
    I didn't ask why they don't do it now. I asked why you felt they wouldn't once they were aware of the demand and realized it was profitable to do so. We don't even know if it would be profitable actually, we're just making an assumption. Maybe they know better than you do, because it's their business to do so.

    Maybe, this is like The Last Jedi. There's a significant number of us that hate the movie, and it's easy to find any number of videos criticizing it. But there are far many more that outnumber us that loved it, and it broke records at the box office. So I guess they'll continue in that awful direction. Maybe, just maybe, you know a lot of women that want pockets in their pants, and aren't aware of the *many many more* women that don't care enough to make it a concern for clothing designers.

    Probably like how the majority of video game consumers probably don't list "sexism in video games" as a priority concern for them, so video game publishers in turn don't make it a priority for themselves either.

    Some of you act like it's completely implausible that this has been the topic of discussion many times in various offices around the country/world and it was discovered that it simply isn't worth it to start adding pockets to pants. And if that's the case, why would you expect a profit-driven company to take a hit and do something like that? It's uncharitable to accuse me of thinking the free market will fix sexism. I'm not the one claiming that sexism is the problem, you are! I have faith that if companies are aware of an opportunity to increase their bottom line, they will do it. You are basically skirting around the edges of saying "companies hate women and want to keep them without pockets, that's why we'll never have pants with pockets in them for women".

    I'm confident that between social media movements, the current cultural climate, and things like Kickstarter, you will have mainstream women's pants with pockets in them at some point. Assuming the demand is there of course.
    You spoke as if you knew better than women what they want. I suggest you read into the realities of mansplaining, and why there is nothing hypocritical about calling such people out.
    Oh, really? Please refrain from explaining anything else to anyone or calling anyone else out until you have revealed your sex to the rest of us. I just want to make sure we're being consistent with your beliefs here. I wouldn't want you to overstep and speak to something that you have no business speaking about. Thanks for cooperating and sticking to your convictions...

  2. - Top - End - #122
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    As has been said several times, not buying trousers is not a feasible option. Women buy pocketless trousers because that's what's available, and they need trousers. The companies have no incentive to add pockets because women will buy their trousers anyway. Adding pockets is unlikely to change the number of pairs of trousers that get sold, it'll just make the female population a lot happier. Unfortunately, that doesn't affect the companies' bottom lines, so they don't bother.
    I wouldn't buy pants without pockets. I'd wear overalls and bibs exclusively before I'd do that. I LITERALLY could not do my job without pockets.

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post

    (1) Those links are pretty much entirely casual wear. Like many women, I wear dress clothes to work, so most of my pants are black slacks. I didn't see a pair of basic dress pants in the list. Searching for "dress pants with pockets" returns significantly fewer results.
    Significantly fewer != none

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post

    (2) Online ordering can be a significant hassle. Remember the other feature of women's clothing - sizes are kinda arbitrary. I can wear anything from an 8 to a 12 and have it be the right size, depending on the brand. Online ordering clothes usually involves ordering 2 or 3 sizes, hoping one of them fits (often none do), and shipping everything that didn't fit back. A lot of times you have to pay for all that shipping too.
    I'd pay that and deal, I've had to do that for other similar things.

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post

    (3) Boutique or custom pants are a pretty significant upcharge for women's pants, often double or more the price of department store pants. That's probably not worth it.
    I would pay double for a pair of pants with pockets


    So the answer is that men like me, and ladies like those here value pockets differently.

    Edit: I have bought belts and external pockets because I didn't have enoigh. And I would pay significantly more for better and sturdier and more convenient pockets. And you know what? Those exist because tradesmen buy them. Carheart makes them and a few others do. Hell, I've considered modifying jeans to add carpenters loops.
    Last edited by AMFV; 2018-06-01 at 10:01 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    Here's the trouble:

    Say you have features A, B, C, and D. People want features A and C. But they can buy AB or CD. Buying CD over AB doesn't mean they don't want A.

    Also, AMFV, the clothing standards for office work and for trade work are very different. The solutions offered here would all lead to me being sent home for failure to dress appropriately for work.
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  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    People like different things than me and I think that's terrible. They should only spend money on things I like so that I don't have to live in a world where things I don't like become popular. This is a big problem in my life and I'm sick of it. Why, just last week my girlfriend and I went purposefully spent money to go to a movie we knew we wouldn't like because we hadn't liked any of the other ones in its series. Our evening was ruined and it's all society's fault.

    I also have strong opinions on whether or not women's should be easily able to find clothes with pockets at stores even though I am not a woman and have nothing to gain or lose from this issue.

  5. - Top - End - #125
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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    Here's the trouble:

    Say you have features A, B, C, and D. People want features A and C. But they can buy AB or CD. Buying CD over AB doesn't mean they don't want A.

    Also, AMFV, the clothing standards for office work and for trade work are very different. The solutions offered here would all lead to me being sent home for failure to dress appropriately for work.
    You cannot always have everything you want. But if enough people want A and C (and are prepared to pay the price for A and C) then you would expect the market to offer A and C (unless there is a good reason not to).

    It doesn't always, because the market is not perfect, and does not have perfect information about what people want (or would want if it were available).

    But, even though it's not perfect, its information is a hell of a lot better than people saying "I want A and C and several people who I have spoken to want A and C, so it must be the market that is wrong, not that the sample I took was too small to be representative, or didn't account for price or whatever".

    I'd be interested to hear if you have a better system for determining what people want than the market?

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
    But, hey! If you're so convinced that deep-pocketed pants for women has such a huge potential market, that's your chance to become a millionaire!
    Yeah, instead of wallowing in self-pity, we have a bunch of forumers here who could take a page from Rich and launch a kickstarter to create a clothing company offering lots of pockets to women... ;)
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  7. - Top - End - #127
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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    As has been said several times, not buying trousers is not a feasible option. Women buy pocketless trousers because that's what's available, and they need trousers. The companies have no incentive to add pockets because women will buy their trousers anyway.
    Incorrect. Assuming your premise that the female population in general would be a lot happier with lots of pockets on their clothes is valid (it probably isn't), it follows that the companies have a major incentive to add pockets before their competition discovers that pot of gold before them and the sales of their pocketless clothes immediately fall off a cliff.
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  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    Noticed a couple of things there.

    (1) Those links are pretty much entirely casual wear. Like many women, I wear dress clothes to work, so most of my pants are black slacks. I didn't see a pair of basic dress pants in the list. Searching for "dress pants with pockets" returns significantly fewer results.
    Same tradeoff applies to us men, though. I'm usually wearing pants that are pretty perfectly unisex (casual) and full of pockets with useful things in them. However, when I have to dress up, my really big key ring and my pretty big wallet both make extremely unsightly bulges in my dress pants' pockets and would be an obvious no-no from the point of view of fashion. Since I have no purse, I have to leave them in the car, maybe only get my one key out of the ring and my one credit card out of the wallet, and keep those in my tiny, nearly useless dress-clothes-pockets.

    90%+ of the time, though, I'm casually dressed, a conscious choice as I favor convenience over fashion. So I have pockets, and anyone else could, if they just imitated me. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
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  9. - Top - End - #129
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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    As has been said several times, not buying trousers is not a feasible option. Women buy pocketless trousers because that's what's available, and they need trousers. The companies have no incentive to add pockets because women will buy their trousers anyway. Adding pockets is unlikely to change the number of pairs of trousers that get sold, it'll just make the female population a lot happier. Unfortunately, that doesn't affect the companies' bottom lines, so they don't bother.
    That might be true if the supply of women's trousers were a monopoly - there was (and could only be) one company that made them. If that were the case then you are right, that company would have no incentive to add pockets, because women would have to buy pocketless trousers as the only ones available. That's why natural monopolies tend to be heavily regulated.

    But the supply of woman's trousers is not a monopoly. There are lots of companies that supply them. If you were right, and there was an unmet demand for women's trousers, then there an incentive for one of the many companies that supplies trousers to supply them with pockets - because women would buy that brand over the others. If that happened than the other brands would follow suit.

    That is the case - a quick google shows lots of results for women's trousers with decent size pockets.

  10. - Top - End - #130
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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    That might be true if the supply of women's trousers were a monopoly - there was (and could only be) one company that made them. If that were the case then you are right, that company would have no incentive to add pockets, because women would have to buy pocketless trousers as the only ones available. That's why natural monopolies tend to be heavily regulated.

    But the supply of woman's trousers is not a monopoly. There are lots of companies that supply them. If you were right, and there was an unmet demand for women's trousers, then there an incentive for one of the many companies that supplies trousers to supply them with pockets - because women would buy that brand over the others. If that happened than the other brands would follow suit.

    That is the case - a quick google shows lots of results for women's trousers with decent size pockets.
    Yes indeed, and as I have said, such things do exist and I own some. But they are very hard to find at the mainstream, budget ends of the clothing spectrum. Yes, I could pay a premium for pockets if I so wanted. But I don't want. I want to be able to walk into Primark or Matalan and pick up clothes with pockets at a price I can afford - just like men can. I've never claimed that women's clothes with pockets don't exist. But there's no food reason why they should be so much harder to get hold of, or any more expensive, than men's clothes with pockets.
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  11. - Top - End - #131
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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    Yes indeed, and as I have said, such things do exist and I own some. But they are very hard to find at the mainstream, budget ends of the clothing spectrum. Yes, I could pay a premium for pockets if I so wanted. But I don't want. I want to be able to walk into Primark or Matalan and pick up clothes with pockets at a price I can afford - just like men can. I've never claimed that women's clothes with pockets don't exist. But there's no food reason why they should be so much harder to get hold of, or any more expensive, than men's clothes with pockets.
    The thing is you're asking for a feature then using the word budget. As I said I literally would not buy pants without pockers. Period. I would pay double for them.


    As far as the difference between trade and office wear. I think that is relevant. In that few women work in the trades which is where I discovered the seriousness of a need for pockets. I suspect if more ladies did they might but pocketed pants.

    The difference here is that I'm willing to buy the more expensive item to have pockets. Which means the cheap manufacturers HAVE to have oockers or they wouldn't sell.
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  12. - Top - End - #132
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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    The thing is you're asking for a feature then using the word budget. As I said I literally would not buy pants without pockers. Period. I would pay double for them.


    As far as the difference between trade and office wear. I think that is relevant. In that few women work in the trades which is where I discovered the seriousness of a need for pockets. I suspect if more ladies did they might but pocketed pants.

    The difference here is that I'm willing to buy the more expensive item to have pockets. Which means the cheap manufacturers HAVE to have oockers or they wouldn't sell.
    You wouldn't buy trousers without pockets because you've never had to. You're used to being able to walk into any clothing store in the land, and every single pair of trousers will have pockets. Why shouldn't it be the same for women?
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  13. - Top - End - #133
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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    Yes indeed, and as I have said, such things do exist and I own some. But they are very hard to find at the mainstream, budget ends of the clothing spectrum. Yes, I could pay a premium for pockets if I so wanted. But I don't want. I want to be able to walk into Primark or Matalan and pick up clothes with pockets at a price I can afford - just like men can. I've never claimed that women's clothes with pockets don't exist. But there's no food reason why they should be so much harder to get hold of, or any more expensive, than men's clothes with pockets.
    I don't recognise the two shops you referred to, but I had a quick look at the Walmart website, and it showed several pairs of women's pants (jeans) for $20. One even showed the model with her hands in the pockets.

    Where are you from Helio? Is it a particular style of pants you are after?

    It seems to me that there are a much wider range of women's pants generally available (a lot more different styles) than men's. Also, it seems that at least some women prefer not to have large pockets (because of how they look). So by the time you have all these different styles of pants, and then double the number of options again by having each available with an without pockets, you have a very large variety of women's pants. I would not be surprised if some styles (and particularly some brands) were not available with pockets.

    If there is a wide unmet demand for woman's pants with pockets this would show up in woman's pants with pockets (where they are available) dramatically outselling women's pants without.

  14. - Top - End - #134
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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    Quote Originally Posted by Heliomance View Post
    You wouldn't buy trousers without pockets because you've never had to. You're used to being able to walk into any clothing store in the land, and every single pair of trousers will have pockets. Why shouldn't it be the same for women?
    You can buy pants with pockets there are links, and I mentioned cargo pants. There are a lot of guys in the fields I work. None of them would buy pocketless pants, they'd wear cargo pants or overalls before doing that.

    Since something like 98 percent of people who do the kind of work I do are men. That means that the group most likely to demand pocketed pants are men. I would not buy pants without pockets.
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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    My wallet is a political extremist. I don't trust it to vote.
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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokèlé-mbèmbé View Post
    My wallet is a political extremist. I don't trust it to vote.
    Even if your cash gets registered?
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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Even if your cash gets registered?
    I can't keep up with you, Peelee. You're just too good
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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    Which ones would you say? I'm not looking to pick an argument, I'm genuinely curious. I come from a very different world in terms of work clothes so that fascinates me.
    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV
    [proceeds to derail the entire thread with an argument about whether or not women want/need pockets]
    Why do you always do this?
    Last edited by rooster707; 2018-06-02 at 08:59 AM.
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    What this guy said.

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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    Quote Originally Posted by AMFV View Post
    I would pay double for a pair of pants with pockets .

    I don't believe you.

    Knowing what I've paid for my Carhartt's with pockets to hold my channel locks and torpedo level the way I've grown used to, compared to what some Target jeans cost, I'd be suprised if you haven't paid at least triple!



    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    ...the clothing standards for office work and for trade work are very different. The solutions offered here would all lead to me being sent home for failure to dress appropriately for work.

    Are they ever!

    I took an "Orbital Welding" for stainless steel tube class, and when I realized that unlike my previous welding classes I could pretty much dress for comfort, I kept the work boots, but ditched the denim for slacks and a button shirt.

    The disapproving sneers and "You look like a banker" comments (this was in 2009) from my classmates (all guys in my local union, or close by ones) told me that office attire was not acceptable.

    Though I notice that most male office workers don't wear good shirts instead they wear "Polo" shirts, which are flimsy, uncomfortable, and usually ugly (when not dark), why does this abomination exist?

    With that in mind, it sure seems to me that "sport", "leisure", "casual", and often even "outdoor" clothing are synonym's for "uncomfortable flimsy plastic crap"!

    Quote Originally Posted by An Enemy Spy View Post
    People like different things than me and I think that's terrible. They should only spend money on things I like so that I don't have to live in a world where things I don't like become popular. This is a big problem in my life and I'm sick of it....

    I'm almost completely ready to agree with you, I just have to know how you feel about gold for XP, and murderous or hobo?

    ...I also have strong opinions on whether or not women's should be easily able to find clothes with pockets at stores even though I am not a woman and have nothing to gain or lose from this issue.

    Well I for one have plenty to gain or lose despite my not wearing women's clothes, as my wife has complained to me MORE THAN ONCE about how she misses the deeper pockets of the past so those are multiple PRECIOUS seconds that I had to try to look like I was listening and cared, instead of staring at a book or my phone!

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    ...I'd be interested to hear if you have a better system for determining what people want than the market?

    I would think that would be obvious:
    An authoritarian implemation of my tastes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    Yeah, instead of wallowing in self-pity, we have a bunch of forumers here who could take a page from Rich and launch a kickstarter to create a clothing company offering lots of pockets to women... ;)

    I don't think enough people to be considered "a bunch" have posted to this thread yet

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    ...90%+ of the time, though, I'm casually dressed, a conscious choice as I favor convenience over fashion. So I have pockets, and anyone else could, if they just imitated me. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

    That does remind me of a pretty big flaw of "dress"/"business" slacks (which I find more comfortable than most other pants besides pajamas):

    The pocket openings are vertical, so when I drive things are more likely to fall out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Liquor Box View Post
    ...That is the case - a quick google shows lots of results for women's trousers with decent size pockets.

    I just don't trust buying "on-line", and vastly prefer "brick and mortar", so I sympathize with the ladies.

    Speaking of which, I know that I'm in the minority, but that more and more things I can't shop for in a store that I walk into, feels like "market failure" to me, as did it when I worked at a motorcycle shop in the 1990's I personally sold the last sidecover or fuel tank that Honda or Kawasaki had available for some '60's and '70"s bikes multiple times, and that in my work many replacement parts that I used to be able to order for plumbing fixtures in the buildings I repair are no longer available

    Yes "supply and demand", "the creative destruction of capitalism" "yadda, yadda, yadda", I don't care! Change is bad!

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    My wallet is a political extremist. I don't trust it to vote.



    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Even if your cash gets registered?

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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    2D8HP, have I ever told you you're my favorite crotchety old man on here?
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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    2D8HP, have I ever told you you're my favorite crotchety old man on here?

    Um... my memory is spotty so I'm not sure, but thanks!


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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    Quote Originally Posted by rooster707 View Post
    Why do you always do this?
    It's not a derailment. Literally it's on topic, since the whole issue here is voting with your wallet.
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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    Quote Originally Posted by WarKitty View Post
    2D8HP, have I ever told you you're my favorite crotchety old man on here?
    Seconded. Although if Mokèlé-mbèmbé outs themselves as a crotchety old man, there's a chance you may get overthrown.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  24. - Top - End - #144
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Seconded. Although if Mokèlé-mbèmbé outs themselves as a crotchety old man, there's a chance you may get overthrown.
    I don't think I'm especially old.

    But "crotchety" is not up for me to decide. If people on this forum find me crotchety then I guess I'm crotchety.
    Stop writing letters to Viswanathan Anand.

  25. - Top - End - #145
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
    Peelee's Avatar

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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    Quote Originally Posted by Mokèlé-mbèmbé View Post
    I don't think I'm especially old.

    But "crotchety" is not up for me to decide. If people on this forum find me crotchety then I guess I'm crotchety.
    Sorry, then; I'm my favorite crotchety not-yet-old man.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

  26. - Top - End - #146
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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Sorry, then; I'm my favorite crotchety not-yet-old man.
    Good choice! Love that self-confidence!
    Stop writing letters to Viswanathan Anand.

  27. - Top - End - #147
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    You know what I really want with women's clothing?

    Sizing with numbers that mean something, or at least accurate size charts. (Most website size charts are generic and wildly innacurate - for example several common department stores just post a sort of "average" size chart rather than brand-specific sizing.) I don't know what a "10" is. I'd really like to be able to know my measurements and buy clothing that fits. Especially when two garments from the same brand might not even have the same sizing.
    Hail to the Lord of Death and Destruction!
    CATNIP FOR THE CAT GOD! YARN FOR THE YARN THRONE! MILK FOR THE MILK BOWL!

  28. - Top - End - #148
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    PirateGuy

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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    Stop writing letters to Viswanathan Anand.

  29. - Top - End - #149
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    2D8HP's Avatar

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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Sorry, then; I'm my favorite crotchety not-yet-old man.

    You've got to slowly ease into crotchety Peelee, it takes years of practice to do right.

    Try grumpy and ornery first.

  30. - Top - End - #150
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Default Re: Vote with your wallet is a terrible system - Rant

    Quote Originally Posted by 2D8HP View Post
    You've got to slowly ease into crotchety Peelee, it takes years of practice to do right.

    Try grumpy and ornery first.
    I've been grumpy since I was a teenager. I think I've been able to merge into crotchety since then. If you disagree, I'll shake my fist at you from my lawn. I know the general direction to point at, too.
    Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.

    Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2

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