Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

[Cheesegear]

Would a particular Princeps have her Titan equipped with different weapons for different situations, or are individual Titan loadouts pretty much fixed once they're built?

Titans are fixed when they're built. And if/when they do get fixed and/or refitted, it takes a long time, and isn't really something that's going to happen often, and almost definitely not on a voidship between going from one battle to the next.

1. A Titans' weapon (or at least the non-Collegia Titanica variants), also determines the Armour's effective rank, and who gets to pilot it. If you have a Princeps who is constantly shifting weapons, they are not only changing their role on Battlefield, but they are also altering their personal Nobility.

2. Also, the piloting of a Knight isn't the same as say, piloting a Battlemech from a chair/cockpit. The Knight Scion gets hard-wired into the Armour, and becomes The Knight. This is fine, because the brain functions of the Scion have adapted to the weapons systems of the Titan. However, if you were constantly just chopping and changing the weapons on a Knights' Armour, the Scion inside the Armour has to not have their brain fried by constantly shifting electrical impulses. Changing weapons on a Knight, effectively requires a new Scion to pilot it.

[hamishspence]

Titans are fixed when they're built. And if/when they do get fixed and/or refitted, it takes a long time, and isn't really something that's going to happen often, and almost definitely not on a voidship between going from one battle to the next.

1. A Titans' weapon (or at least the non-Collegia Titanica variants), also determines the Armour's effective rank, and who gets to pilot it. If you have a Princeps who is constantly shifting weapons, they are not only changing their role on Battlefield, but they are also altering their personal Nobility.

That isn't the impression I get - I get the impression from sources like Lexicanum, that weapon-swapping is not that hard, and that weapon loadout isn't tied to rank. A Warlord Princeps whose Warlord comes with two volcano cannons doesn't "outrank" a Warlord Princeps whose Warlord comes with some other combination.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warlord_Battle_Titan

As with all Titans the Warlord has multi-configuration mounts which allow it to interchange weapons for specific situations, although different patterns of Warlords are factory-built with standard weapon configurations; most crews will also develop a specific style of combat and thus mount weapons appropriate for the role. The standard weapon configuration for a Mars-pattern Warlord are two Turbo-laser Destuctors in the carapace mounts with a Volcano Cannon and a Gatling Blaster in the arm mounts

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warhound_Scout_Titan

The Warhound has two weapon mount hardpoints. The multi-configuration nature of these mounts means armament can be tailored on a mission specific basis. However, most Titan crews will develop their own particular style of combat and so tend to stick to certain configurations. In addition, each pattern of Titan is built with a Standard Weapon Configuration, which in the case of a Mars-pattern Warhound is a Plasma Blastgun and Vulcan Mega-Bolter.

Regarding Knights - going by the 8e codex, Knight Scions tend to change Knights as they get older and more experienced. A newbie will typically start in a Knight Errant. An experienced Knight will usually end up piloting a Paladin, Preceptor or Warden.

[LeSwordfish]

Why on earth would changing your weapons change your rank?

"Sir, the enemy is approaching with massed infantry, your volcano cannons will be of no use."
"Alright then, I can swap them out for bolters. That means you're in charge."

[LudDavenport]

Though I imagine changing weapons would require a "dry dock"/hanger like seen in the space marine video game. Something planets without heavy industry probably lack? I can imagine some of the largest impirium void ships having such a space if it was a dedicated transport ship for a titan legion.

[tyckspoon]

Though I imagine changing weapons would require a "dry dock"/hanger like seen in the space marine video game. Something planets without heavy industry probably lack? I can imagine some of the largest impirium void ships having such a space if it was a dedicated transport ship for a titan legion.

Or, this being 40k, a few thousand serfs and a really big pully system will do in a pinch.

[LansXero]

Why on earth would changing your weapons change your rank?

"Sir, the enemy is approaching with massed infantry, your volcano cannons will be of no use."
"Alright then, I can swap them out for bolters. That means you're in charge."

so something that can turn cities to glass will be of no use against whatever is standing on said city?

[LeSwordfish]

so something that can turn cities to glass will be of no use against whatever is standing on said city?

Thank you, you've made my joke very much better. Feel free to reverse the weapons if that makes the quip sufficiently accurate for you.

[Drasius]

2. Also, the piloting of a Knight isn't the same as say, piloting a Battlemech from a chair/cockpit. The Knight Scion gets hard-wired into the Armour, and becomes The Knight. This is fine, because the brain functions of the Scion have adapted to the weapons systems of the Titan. However, if you were constantly just chopping and changing the weapons on a Knights' Armour, the Scion inside the Armour has to not have their brain fried by constantly shifting electrical impulses. Changing weapons on a Knight, effectively requires a new Scion to pilot it.

Others have already commented on point 1, so I will address point 2 - in all the books and codices I've seen, knight pilots require some time out of their knight or they not only get sick from the repeated recycling of their waste products and develop sores around the plugs that connect them to the knight, but they also tend to go a bit mad, usually from the previous knight pilots collective conciousness and the machine spirit of the knight itself being plugged into the pilots brain.

There's mention of pilots going multiple weeks in a knight before the madness starts to set in, but generally most of them get in and out relatively often, probably about the same as a marine gets into and out of their armour.

[Wraith]

There's mention of pilots going multiple weeks in a knight before the madness starts to set in, but generally most of them get in and out relatively often, probably about the same as a marine gets into and out of their armour.

Pretty much. Even the Princepts of Warlord Titans - who are sometimes depicted as little more than a head and torso floating a jar of amniotic fluid with cables hard-wired into their spines - have to be disconnected from the machine occasionally in order to rest and reestablish their own personality before it gets completely overwhelmed by the Machine Spirit. Disconnection isn't just a luxury, it's a necessity to protect the pilot from the Machine, as much as from the stress of combat and the physical trauma of the neural link itself.

While I haven't specifically seen it said, there's a strong implication that there are only two ways to stop being a Princepts; to be killed in battle, or to be driven insane by the Machine Spirit and be forcibly removed (which almost certainly results in death anyway). None that I can think of have ever suggested retirement as an option, which even some Guardsmen get to look forward to. Many last for decades, because they can see 'the line' and take steps to avoid crossing it.... But one day, tyhey're going to do it and there's no way back.

[LansXero]

Pretty much. Even the Princepts of Warlord Titans - who are sometimes depicted as little more than a head and torso floating a jar of amniotic fluid with cables hard-wired into their spines - have to be disconnected from the machine occasionally in order to rest and reestablish their own personality before it gets completely overwhelmed by the Machine Spirit. Disconnection isn't just a luxury, it's a necessity to protect the pilot from the Machine, as much as from the stress of combat and the physical trauma of the neural link itself.

While I haven't specifically seen it said, there's a strong implication that there are only two ways to stop being a Princepts; to be killed in battle, or to be driven insane by the Machine Spirit and be forcibly removed (which almost certainly results in death anyway). None that I can think of have ever suggested retirement as an option, which even some Guardsmen get to look forward to. Many last for decades, because they can see 'the line' and take steps to avoid crossing it.... But one day, tyhey're going to do it and there's no way back.

I think I've read somewhere of a princeps going useless because while the machine can be repaired the sympathetic trauma from all the damage it took was too much for its mind to handle. Cant remember where, but it always stuck as something really terrible for someone to go through.

[Platinius]

I think I've read somewhere of a princeps going useless because while the machine can be repaired the sympathetic trauma from all the damage it took was too much for its mind to handle. Cant remember where, but it always stuck as something really terrible for someone to go through.

Power demands sacrifice

and for the price of a short, quite miserable and incredibly intense life, you become nothing short of the Avatar of a God

[Wraith]

I think I've read somewhere of a princeps going useless because while the machine can be repaired the sympathetic trauma from all the damage it took was too much for its mind to handle. Cant remember where, but it always stuck as something really terrible for someone to go through.

Death or lobotomy - that sounds familiar too, though I seem to remember the difference between the two being pretty moot.

[Cheesegear]

I think I've read somewhere of a princeps going useless because while the machine can be repaired the sympathetic trauma from all the damage it took was too much for its mind to handle. Cant remember where, but it always stuck as something really terrible for someone to go through.

I think I read the same thing.
Was it a story about a Knight losing its arm in combat, and then the Princeps had paralysis in his right arm because all his nerves and muscles from the shoulder down were fried, and he had Lichtenburg scars from his skull to his fingers?

[hamishspence]

Xantek of House Taranis, at least, had his brain so damaged by neural feedback from his Knight being hit by plasma, that piloting it became agony. He ended up removing his own neural plugs for years (and accepting a job as an instructor) to allow his brain to heal.

When he put the plugs back in, he had to undergo the Ritual of Becoming again to rebond to his Throne - making him one of the few guys to survive two Rituals of Becoming.

[lord_khaine]

Power demands sacrifice

and for the price of a short, quite miserable and incredibly intense life, you become nothing short of the Avatar of a God

I dont even think its that short.
As i recall its far, far longer, than anyone fighting on the front ranks can honestly expect.
Besides that i recall titan pilots being insanely valuable. So i suspect that off the front they are treated like kings.

[Wraith]

I dont even think its that short.
As i recall its far, far longer, than anyone fighting on the front ranks can honestly expect.
Besides that i recall titan pilots being insanely valuable. So i suspect that off the front they are treated like kings.

The Crone of Stormherald - Imperator Class Titan of the Invigilata clan who fought at the Third War for Armageddon - was incredibly old; centuries, rather than decades. While prestigious beyond measure, she was of the "sealed into a fish-bowl full of ambiotic fluid with her hands, feet and eyes surgically removed" variety, so she wasn't so much treated like royalty as she was a combination between Idol-come-Prophet of the God-Machine. A sort of reverence that clearly went beyond her being thought of as merely "an important human".

[Demon 997]

I think in Titanicus, there was an ex-princep who had gone mad and been given a retirement sweeping a courtyard someplace in the Forge. I can try and find it in my copy if anyone is interested.

So that's evidence that it's survivable to leave. Or maybe he wasn't a princeps, just one of the other crewmen.

[Cheesegear]

While prestigious beyond measure, she was of the "sealed into a fish-bowl full of ambiotic fluid with her hands, feet and eyes surgically removed" variety,

I'm trying to remember the five (?) Titans Princeps from the Forge of Mars trilogy. One is definitely basically just a Navigator from Dune - who is treated with effectively the same reverence. One is a centenarian who walks around with a cavalry sabre...But I can't remember any of the others. I want to say that another one is basically Steven Hawking, with his body so shriveled and ruined from spending so much time in his Armour, which has caused severe muscular atrophy, but that he's also one of the greatest Titans Princeps in the Segementum, because his brain works totally fine.

So that's evidence that it's survivable to leave.

Of course you can survive battle. The problem is being 'forcibly retired' due to injury. While most Guardsmen will typically lose a limb, or an eye*. A Titan Princeps' career-ending injury typically is a result of severe brain, spinal cord, muscle and nerve damage.

* I am of course, not including the witnessing of a Daemon doing Daemonic things, or gazing into the Warp, and having the Warp gaze back.

[The Glyphstone]

On a different line of questioning:

Are all Eldar Aspect Shrines mono-gendered membership, or is that a unique trait of the Howling Banshee Aspect?

[DataNinja]

On a different line of questioning:

Are all Eldar Aspect Shrines mono-gendered membership, or is that a unique trait of the Howling Banshee Aspect?

Other than the Howling Banshees, as far as I know, all of the known Eldar Aspects are mixed gender. Though, there may be unique ones on other Craftworlds. (I still want to know what the Slicing Orbs of Zandros are!)

Honestly, I'm not sure why, other than out-of-universe tradition, that Banshee Aspect Warriors are all female. Because the aspect one is drawn to, at least in recent fluff, all depends on what kind of anger one feels. (Burn everything is Fire Dragons; a recoiling, hiding one is Striking Scorpions, etc.) So... I guess it's saying Banshee-anger is only felt by women or something? (Alternatively, though this counteracts the fluff stating they're all female, it could be that they simply all wear armour making them appear feminine in honour of Jain Zar. I think I prefer that interpretation.)

[LeSwordfish]

IIRC the shape of the outside of a set of aspect armour relates to the gender of the aspect, not that of the wartior inside. So there are female Dark Reapers and male Howling Banshees.

[DataNinja]

IIRC the shape of the outside of a set of aspect armour relates to the gender of the aspect, not that of the wartior inside. So there are female Dark Reapers and male Howling Banshees.

Alright, different sources seem to say slightly different things. Some say "all-female" for Banshees, others "almost all-female". I do not know what the latest Eldar Codex says (I've not actually played this edition), so someone with that'd have to check what the current standpoint is. But, seems that there has definitely been at least some leeway for male Howling Banshees. (Not that that was the topic of the initial inquiry.)

[DemonicAngel]

So... I guess it's saying Banshee-anger is only felt by women or something?

I just wanted to quote: "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned", but i am really unsure about the fluff.

[Platinius]

Had my shortstory gone anywhere AND received a follow up, the second (short)story would have ended with (among other things) the banshee character climbing out of her armour only to reveal that she is in fact a he, much to the surprise of the Dark Eldar Wych who had been aggressively flirting with "her" the entire time.
The Wych would say something like: "Wait you are a male?! ...No matter, I like males too."
The male banshee responding: "And why, pray tell, would I ever let myself be touched by a filthy Commorite?"
Cut to 15 minutes later where the racket of them fornicating is heard across half the ship with the Lady Inquisitor Carla ready to hammer her head into the wall wondering very loudly why in the Emperor's good name she ever struck a deal with these overemotional boneheaded xenos.

[snowblizz]

Had my shortstory gone anywhere AND received a follow up, the second (short)story would have ended with (among other things) the banshee character climbing out of her armour only to reveal that she is in fact a he, much to the surprise of the Dark Eldar Wych who had been aggressively flirting with "her" the entire time.
The Wych would say something like: "Wait you are a male?! ...No matter, I like males too."
The male banshee responding: "And why, pray tell, would I ever let myself be touched by a filthy Commorite?"
Cut to 15 minutes later where the racket of them fornicating is heard across half the ship with the Lady Inquisitor Carla ready to hammer her head into the wall wondering very loudly why in the Emperor's good name she ever struck a deal with these overemotional boneheaded xenos.

I think I can spot the point where you lost GW's interested in exploring this topic.

Alright, different sources seem to say slightly different things. Some say "all-female" for Banshees, others "almost all-female". I do not know what the latest Eldar Codex says (I've not actually played this edition), so someone with that'd have to check what the current standpoint is. But, seems that there has definitely been at least some leeway for male Howling Banshees. (Not that that was the topic of the initial inquiry.)

I distinctly recall male Banshees at some point. I want to say I've seen a model too, the Exarch I think? But 40k fluff tends to blow in whatever was the brain craze at GW. It was presented as one of those "this is how much the Aspects personality takes over" things I think.

It would also have nicely curtailed a lot of the juvenile jokes associated with Banshees.

[Wraith]

It was presented as one of those "this is how much the Aspects personality takes over" things I think.

Traditionally, I think that this is the story that GW has used since the beginning. Twenty-five years ago it was because 40k was even more of a "Boys Only" club than it is now and there was genuine concern that "girl models" would be rejected, so they created lore that said they could be males but their theme meant it was practically pointless to tell the difference, with the additional cavaet that different shrines had different rules, so - like Space Marine Chapers - just do whatever you want and it's likely true somewhere.

Though GW has since had something of a rennaissance since then, coming out the other side of Sisters of Battle, Dark Eldar and recently the updated (and significanly less cringeworthy) Dark Elves, they have wisely kept the story the same rather than try to change it in order address more complex issues of gender identity, transgenderism and cross-dressing in a 40k context.
While wishing they were better at that sort of thing, I'm glad that they recognise their weaknesses and avoided tying their own noose, rather than trying and failing spectacularly at it.

[hamishspence]

Traditionally, I think that this is the story that GW has used since the beginning. Twenty-five years ago it was because 40k was even more of a "Boys Only" club than it is now and there was genuine concern that "girl models" would be rejected, so they created lore that said they could be males but their theme meant it was practically pointless to tell the difference, with the additional cavaet that different shrines had different rules, so - like Space Marine Chapers - just do whatever you want and it's likely true somewhere.

Though GW has since had something of a rennaissance since then, coming out the other side of Sisters of Battle, Dark Eldar and recently the updated (and significanly less cringeworthy) Dark Elves, they have wisely kept the story the same rather than try to change it in order address more complex issues of gender identity, transgenderism and cross-dressing in a 40k context.
While wishing they were better at that sort of thing, I'm glad that they recognise their weaknesses and avoided tying their own noose, rather than trying and failing spectacularly at it.

Another good example of GW taking a less "boys only" approach - compare the very first Codex Knights, to the latest (3rd) one.

In the first one, it says that only first and secondborn sons of noble houses get to undergo the Ritual of Becoming by default - refers to the leader as the High King, and talks about the ladies of noble houses being consorts. who engage in lots of political skirmishing.

In the third - it's High Monarch, there are lots of sample female Knights, there's quotes by female Knights, and there's no "first and secondborn sons" reference.

[Platinius]

I think I can spot the point where you lost GW's interested in exploring this topic.



I distinctly recall male Banshees at some point. I want to say I've seen a model too, the Exarch I think? But 40k fluff tends to blow in whatever was the brain craze at GW. It was presented as one of those "this is how much the Aspects personality takes over" things I think.

It would also have nicely curtailed a lot of the juvenile jokes associated with Banshees.

I never got to explaining that part XD

No, what I think cost me the chance was my willingness to sort of talk about the Dark Age of Technology, because they found a survivor in a stasis pod. It would have shed some light into it, but none that would have risked actually changing or distorting the lore of 40k. For starters, the survivor was a special forces leftenant who could speak eldar and drive/fly most STC vehicle (that didn't need a navigator or had to be actually plugged in) and many eldar crafts. The only practical info he would have given about the DAoT would have been that the Tech was not distributed evenly anyway and that he was from a more backwards empire. The rest would have been anecdotes and his often contrasting yet also surprisingly similar views to that of the Imperium of Man. Also jokes about how the Imperium uses "high tech" machines that where already lowtech where/ he came from, but also amazement at some other stuff. (for example, he would have said that the bolters are both total overkill and incredibly awesome^^) He would really have played up the schizophrenic technological nature of the Imperium.
He also would not have been surprised by the fact that humanity is still fighting wars attributing it to human nature, but he is shocked by the absurd scale and frequency aka the Grimdarkness of it all.


It would not seem Grimdark enough because the contrast material is missing.
The warhost of the Craftworlders had been badly beaten in a desperate attempt to stop an invading Chaos Force, the 2 DA that would join the inquisitors retinue were to be cut off from going home while one of them is crippled and put into a stasis pod as part of the deal. While the invading Chaos forces had ultimately been destroyed by the inquisitorial ships lance batteries, the world's uhman colonists had been almost exterminated and the planed itself had been rendered uninhabitable for the next centuries, dooming the few hundred thousand survivors to a slow death under an ashen sky and with poisoned earth under their feet. The DA raiders basically tried to nick the world population before the Chaos forces wasted them and the Craftworlders came to save a large repository of soulstones. They failed and many souls were lost, but they had managed to kill the chaos sorcerer that would have used these souls to ascend and would have annihilated several craftworlds in his bid to become a chaos god. The remaining soulstones (including those of the warhost) would have ended up in the hands of the inquisitor and be used as hostages to bargain favors from craftworlders. (That is the main reason why the banshee needs to stick around since he actually is powerful and skilled enough to escape)

So now I'd appreciate a few opinions. Is this Grimdark enough as the skeleton of a story?

EDIT: Remember, everything is super bad is not interesting. There needs to be some hope, futile as it is. My question is, is there still too much hope?

[Forum Explorer]

I never got to explaining that part XD

No, what I think cost me the chance was my willingness to sort of talk about the Dark Age of Technology, because they found a survivor in a stasis pod. It would have shed some light into it, but none that would have risked actually changing or distorting the lore of 40k. For starters, the survivor was a special forces leftenant who could speak eldar and drive/fly most STC vehicle (that didn't need a navigator or had to be actually plugged in) and many eldar crafts. The only practical info he would have given about the DAoT would have been that the Tech was not distributed evenly anyway and that he was from a more backwards empire. The rest would have been anecdotes and his often contrasting yet also surprisingly similar views to that of the Imperium of Man. Also jokes about how the Imperium uses "high tech" machines that where already lowtech where/ he came from, but also amazement at some other stuff. (for example, he would have said that the bolters are both total overkill and incredibly awesome^^) He would really have played up the schizophrenic technological nature of the Imperium.
He also would not have been surprised by the fact that humanity is still fighting wars attributing it to human nature, but he is shocked by the absurd scale and frequency aka the Grimdarkness of it all.


It would not seem Grimdark enough because the contrast material is missing.
The warhost of the Craftworlders had been badly beaten in a desperate attempt to stop an invading Chaos Force, the 2 DA that would join the inquisitors retinue were to be cut off from going home while one of them is crippled and put into a stasis pod as part of the deal. While the invading Chaos forces had ultimately been destroyed by the inquisitorial ships lance batteries, the world's uhman colonists had been almost exterminated and the planed itself had been rendered uninhabitable for the next centuries, dooming the few hundred thousand survivors to a slow death under an ashen sky and with poisoned earth under their feet. The DA raiders basically tried to nick the world population before the Chaos forces wasted them and the Craftworlders came to save a large repository of soulstones. They failed and many souls were lost, but they had managed to kill the chaos sorcerer that would have used these souls to ascend and would have annihilated several craftworlds in his bid to become a chaos god. The remaining soulstones (including those of the warhost) would have ended up in the hands of the inquisitor and be used as hostages to bargain favors from craftworlders. (That is the main reason why the banshee needs to stick around since he actually is powerful and skilled enough to escape)

So now I'd appreciate a few opinions. Is this Grimdark enough as the skeleton of a story?

EDIT: Remember, everything is super bad is not interesting. There needs to be some hope, futile as it is. My question is, is there still too much hope?

Too much Eldar that are being too nice. They would just kill the guy and retrieve the spiritstones that way. Also what does DA stand for?

[The Glyphstone]

Dark Aeldar?