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  1. - Top - End - #541
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    On a different line of questioning:

    Are all Eldar Aspect Shrines mono-gendered membership, or is that a unique trait of the Howling Banshee Aspect?
    Incubi are technically not an aspect shrine, but seem they do seem to be mono-male. As the name implies.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Too much Eldar that are being too nice. They would just kill the guy and retrieve the spiritstones that way. Also what does DA stand for?
    DE (Dark Eldar if you are new) sorry for the typo.

    Not when the Eldar are 2 and the one holding the bag with the spiritstones is a Veteran Sergeant of the Flesh Tearers in Assault Terminator Armour surrounded by a Crimson Fist Librarian, a Rampagers Assault Marine and Iron Hands Apothecary.
    And just to round it off, the other Craftworld Eldar is badly wounded and currently in intensive care aboard the Inquisitors ship, because the Veteran Sergeant thought it to be a good idea to help them survive and give them the stones back as part of deals and favours, because:
    a) the Craftworlders would all have died if they hadn't intervened (many escaped, it is just that these 2 got stuck behind),
    b) none of the stones (thus the souls within) would have been saved,
    c) he promised as part of the deal that no favours would be used against Craftworld Eldar
    d) not giving the stones back or breaking them would only invite trouble in ways neither of them desire it
    e) the Imperials aboard that ship will also take out targets that would endanger any of the craftworlds so long as the Imperium also more or less directly profits from it (it is all about favours )
    and
    f) the Inquisitor's and her ship's mission is to look for lost ships, armies and other lost resources of the Imperium, so the practical chances of coming into conflict with Craftworlders is relatively low and should not endanger either of their interests

    In case you haven't noticed, Veteran Sergeant Raphael is a really smooth guy who positively radiates integrity and is to the surprise of absolutely no one the clear leader of the SM bunch, despite there definitely being no proper chain of command between SMs of different chapters. (They were marooned and such until the Inquisitor found them. They are NOT the Deathwatch.)
    BTW the Inquisitor wanted to kill and dissect them, but she typically listens to her second-in-command and keeps any deals he strikes, even if she was foaming with rage when he told her about the deal he had struck with the Craftworlders. Like I said, he is a very smooth guy.^^


    Now I only have to get that little fanfic story written -.- Dammit, why do I make my own life so difficult. Now I have to write the story I want to read^^
    Last edited by Platinius; 2018-11-08 at 05:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Interesting that you wanted to explain a little in regard to the dark age of technology, given it seems GW are going that way themselves. Blackstone Fortress has a literal, confirmed in its bio, Man of Iron as a character model!
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    I saw that spoiler only a few minutes ago. I'm.... not entirely enthusiastic about them putting an actual Man Of Iron into 40k.

    It's like Belisarius Cawl all over again. Where has been been for the last 15,000 years, why has no one noticed, and why hasn't be been immediately purged by the other characters for all sorts of reasons?

    I know that space is a big place and all, but for a MoI to appear all of sudden without warning? Kinda weird.
    Last edited by Wraith; 2018-11-08 at 05:39 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    I can deal with a random Man Of Iron noodling about the edges of space more than I can a Mechanicus Magos, literally on mars, apparently shut away in an office as the Beast rampages outside.

    I definitely dislike the overall trend of giving models to things that were previously cool backstory outside the scope of the game (Primarchs, Custodes, etc) but so long as it's only the one...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I saw that spoiler only a few minutes ago. I'm.... not entirely enthusiastic about them putting an actual Man Of Iron into 40k.

    It's like Belisarius Cawl all over again. Where has been been for the last 15,000 years, why has no one noticed, and why hasn't be been immediately purged by the other characters for all sorts of reasons?

    I know that space is a big place and all, but for a MoI to appear all of sudden without warning? Kinda weird.
    I feel the same as you.
    Whilst the idea of a Man of Iron showing up in 40K is actually a really cool concept. I don't believe that anyone at GW or BL will do it justice. Same with Belisarius Cawl. GW/BL got around Belisarius Cawl saying that he's mind-wiped himself a whole bunch of times...Except that doesn't make a whole lot of sense at the end of the day when you really think about it. Because how could he have mind-wiped himself yet still retained Orders from 30K!Guilliman himself? How does he still retain all his combined knowledge? Oh? You mean he's only ever mind-wiped anything about his own identity and specific events? How contrived.

    But then again...Take Ollanius Pius. He's confirmed to have been alive for thirty thousand years. Umm... I have so many questions.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    We've actually seen a Man Of Iron before thise. It was in a comic (i sadly can't recall the specific one) and it was basically a horrible insane monster that ripped some people apart, possibly becuase it wanted to make them "better" so they could live with it forever, cuz it was alone for 15k years. That will drive anyone insane.

    In any event, ya, a MoI suddenly showing up is far more believable than Cawl (as much as i like Robo Pope) as it could probably disguise itself as a super armored Tech Priest or something and just do what it needs to do before faffing off.

    As to why noone has tried to kill it.... They can't?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    We've actually seen a Man Of Iron before thise. It was in a comic (i sadly can't recall the specific one) and it was basically a horrible insane monster that ripped some people apart, possibly becuase it wanted to make them "better" so they could live with it forever, cuz it was alone for 15k years. That will drive anyone insane.
    They've shown up a few other times, Tanith first and only I believe, and maybe in one of the mechanicus novels. Lore's Wraiths' business so I'll let him fill in the gaps.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    As much as I like expanding lore, stuff like this is the reason I went to such great lengths to introduce 1 person from the 20 something millennium while trying very hard to not break current lore on top of not making it appear contrived. (Just because some things appear contrived, doesn't mean that it actually is, only most of the time )

    For example, I find the Primaris Marines as presented extremely contrived. They could have drastically reduced the numbers and stated that they would share the capability to make them with all loyalist chapters as soon as possible who in turn will create the vast Primaris army that will slowly phase out the old style transformation process.
    In practical play, players could still play have played them "only" with a regular SM captain, who are elites among their kind, and easily far more capable than the average new blood primaris, no matter how physically strong they are.
    No difference in game mechanics, the players get their fun and the lore fans also get new stuff to gush about instead of roll their eyes.
    Last edited by Platinius; 2018-11-08 at 06:54 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #550
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    Quote Originally Posted by Platinius View Post
    For example, I find the Primaris Marines as presented extremely contrived.
    Only if you still think the year is 999.M41.
    It's currently 100.M42

    The Ultima Founding started directly after Noctis Aeterna when Guilliman [pooped] himself, didn't particularly care that Cawl's project wasn't finished, and demanded the product now because **** just got real, and a flawed product is better than no product. It's been 100 years since Guilliman ordered the Founding, and Primaris Marines were in development well before then. If it takes 50 years to create ~1000 Marines, I can well believe that in twice that time, ~20 incomplete Chapters of Primaris Marines were made, as well as Primaris Marines filtered throughout all other Chapters.

    They could have drastically reduced the numbers and stated that they would share the capability to make them with all loyalist chapters as soon as possible who in turn will create the vast Primaris army that will slowly phase out the old style transformation process.
    Except as we know from War of Secrets, that clearly wasn't and isn't Cawl's plan. Cawl isn't the kind of guy who shares the knowledge/ability to create Primaris Marines.
    Cawl's plan seems much more nefarious than that.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2018-11-08 at 08:38 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Full Space Marines are roughly 1 in a billion if you break it down.
    The selection and training process is just as much about the mind as it is about the body.
    Every single SM Chapter has an extensive recruiting, training and transformation program with specialists that dedicate their entire lives to doing that and they still can only barely keep up with the demand.
    How does Cawl have the equivalent of several SM chapters in Primaris soldier output when he is ostensibly by himself without having a massive drop in training quality or mental strength for the new warriors even if he can work that fast?
    So where or when does he find the men?
    And who equips them? Mars, as technologically advances it may be and whatever insane output capability it may have, was already taxed to beyond its limit long before Guilliman decided he should stop taking his stasis field nap.

    As I said, very contrived.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Platinius View Post
    Full Space Marines are roughly 1 in a billion if you break it down.
    They're not. They're a few per thousand.

    How does Cawl have the equivalent of several SM chapters in Primaris soldier output when he is ostensibly by himself without having a massive drop
    Because he's been doing it since the Siege of Terra. Training them up, and then freezing them. The ones that Guilliman gifts to Pedro Kantor remember seeing Rogal Dorn himself when they were children.

    mental strength
    ...Sounds like you need to read a book, because that is an explicit flaw, because Primaris Marines do not have the history that other Chapters have, and they skipped on major doctrinal shifts. This also means that they're no subject to the same morals, or even *ahem* authorities as other Space Marines.

    So where or when does he find the men?
    He's been doing it for ten thousand years. He had several thousand Marines ready-not-ready Marines in his Forgeship to go when Guilliman ordered them to be unfrozen.

    And who equips them?
    The Ark Mechanicus, Zar-Quaesitor. Cawl has definitely not given his secrets to Mars.
    #CawlDoesNothingWrong

    As I said, very contrived.
    Only if you don't read books.

    It's the same way that Age of Sigmar never made sense. Until more and more books were written about it, and fleshed it out.
    But most people never got past the surface-level which was only written as an introduction.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2018-11-09 at 04:16 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Whilst the idea of a Man of Iron showing up in 40K is actually a really cool concept. I don't believe that anyone at GW or BL will do it justice.
    This is more in line with what I had in mind. The Men of Iron are literally mythical figures, dark and sketchy images from a distant past with is dark and sketchy itself. For one to just suddenly turn up and join in without fuss or any apparent fanfare feels.... underwhelming?

    All the questions we're going to ask - where is it from, what did it do, how did it get here - are inevitably going to be answered along the lines of "it just did, stop asking" and for it to be as mundane as a PC in a spin-off boardgame makes it lose a lot of its mystique.

    I suppose I should honestly admit my bias, with that in mind. I like the Men of Iron being mythical and lost to the mists of time in the 40k lore, and to have one walking about, with stats and points cost (even within the context of a stand-alone game) puts them in real danger of being made lame; kind of like whenever a new Codex comes out and everyone looks at a special character's stat line - Abaddon the Despoiler, First Chosen of Chaos, Grand Leader of the Traitor Legions - and says, "well that's a bit ****".

    By giving them stats, you make them 'mortal' and thus, finite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    As to why noone has tried to kill it.... They can't?
    That bodes incredibly poorly for a Playable Character in a boardgame, if it is functionally immortal and/or more powerful than the rest of the PCs added together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    They've shown up a few other times, Tanith first and only I believe, and maybe in one of the mechanicus novels. Lore's Wraiths' business so I'll let him fill in the gaps.
    Not this time. While I'm perfectly happy to believe that a mangled, deranged remnant of a MoI might have been a maniical antagonist in one of the novels, I've not heard of anything even closely resembling a functioning AND sane one before now.

    [EDIT] A quick Lexicanum binge brings up nothing apart from the story you mentioned, Brookshw, which mostly features an Men of Iron STC as a plot device rather than as actual antagonists. Seems as though this really is the second of two canonical appearances by a MoI beyond M23, with most references being a retread of what was first published in the 3rd Edition Rule Book.

    So.... *shrug*. Who knows where GW are going with this? I'm expecting it to just be a weird out-of-continuity nod, like the Squat Bounty Hunter in Necromunda, rather than a specific "thing".
    Last edited by Wraith; 2018-11-09 at 07:17 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Do they ever explain how Cawl managed to make the Space Marine creation process so much better in such a short amount of time? I haven't read any of the new books, but from what I have seen I'm inclined to agree that Cawl is pretty contrived.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul View Post
    Do they ever explain how Cawl managed to make the Space Marine creation process so much better in such a short amount of time? I haven't read any of the new books, but from what I have seen I'm inclined to agree that Cawl is pretty contrived.
    He's been working for 10,000 years on improving the Emperor's just good enough project after having been one of the Magos who helped the Emperor design space marines in the first place. His ability to make limited improvements to them is one of the least contrived parts of primaris.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul View Post
    Do they ever explain how Cawl managed to make the Space Marine creation process so much better in such a short amount of time? I haven't read any of the new books, but from what I have seen I'm inclined to agree that Cawl is pretty contrived.
    He's been working on them for around 10,000 years, and one of the new organs Primaris get is taken from a fragment of the Emperor's notes.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    I'll gladly admit I didn't read any of the new books as I find nothing interesting about them. What interests me however is discussion with all of the people here.^^

    Let's get to unpacking, shall we?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Because he's been doing it since the Siege of Terra. Training them up, and then freezing them. The ones that Guilliman gifts to Pedro Kantor remember seeing Rogal Dorn himself when they were children.
    Adorable, but lets talk about the important part. So you are saying Cawl was already capable of making Primaris Marines shortly after HH and deliberately withheld the technology to make better SM from the Imperium after a terrible loss of fighting capability? I find that hard to believe and treasonous to boot. Granted, it is jsut as possible Cawl had simply been continuously kidnapping children from the 30k equivalent of the Schola Progenium to the "modern" day, to have enough material stocked up for experimentation and later transformation. Possible and Grimdark enough, so it gets a pass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    [...]because that is an explicit flaw, because Primaris Marines do not have the history that other Chapters have, and they skipped on major doctrinal shifts. This also means that they're no subject to the same morals, or even *ahem* authorities as other Space Marines.
    -Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen, but ok. It's 40k, it needs disasters to happen. It's the nature of Grimdark.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    He's been doing it for ten thousand years. He had several thousand Marines ready-not-ready Marines in his Forgeship to go when Guilliman ordered them to be unfrozen.
    -He has had a state of the art fabricator ship from Great Crusade days for 10000 years in Terra's and Mars' backyard and nobody with authority ever questioned it or came looking? Neither the Custodes, the Inquisition, the Techpriests of Mars nor the Imperial Fists ever found out? I think not, but whatever on to the next point. Perhaps he moved around a lot?
    -Several thousand Marines in ten thousand years is an abysmal rate of production, even assuming it took Cawl 5000 years of research to get it right, it would mean that he had a production speed of roughly 2 per year. Since I am always willing to give it the benefit of the doubt, let's assume Cawl could now step up to full production because of Guilliman's command and blessing and therefore increase the production by a factor 10, the output would now be 20 per year and always assuming that there are never any disturbances in the production chain which chapters regularly experience given the nature of 40k.
    A comparison to regular SM production, before the Guilliman's return, there were about 1 million Marines distributed over about 1000 Chapters. Given the nature of 40ks Grimdarkness where there is only war, a yearly loss of 1 full marine per chapter seems a very generous guess toward the chapters which nets an average loss of 1000 per year (likely far more though, I would rather think for it to be around 5000/year if not significantly more; that is a net of 5 deaths per chapter per year). A rate of loss the Apothecaries are barely able to keep with. Now remember that for each full marine, several initiates have failed or died during their training or scouting days. While it would still put Cawls rate of production over the average of most chapters, it is still a nets a total of 2% more marines per year, which is always nice but not really important in the grand scheme of things, particularly since...


    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    The Ark Mechanicus, Zar-Quaesitor. Cawl has definitely not given his secrets to Mars.
    #CawlDoesNothingWrong
    -...he doesn't share his knowledge and any actually significant increase in marine numbers by improving each chapters capability to make more and better marines is deliberately negated. So the Primaris Marines are not phasing the old school marines any time soon, because the old school method simply outproduces the new one and there is no guaranty that the new marines actually perform better than the old models since, I promise you, mental strength matters just as much if not more than physical one.
    The Primaris might appear to perform better, but remember that they are also often lead by some returned Primarch.
    To draw a historical comparison, Napoleon was a genius tactician and his tactics usually really worked well for him, but when others tried them, not so much. (This is a huge topic when it comes to historical warfare so please don't press me on this or this thread will turn into a thread about the Napoleonic wars)
    -that means that should Cawl die/incapacitated for whatever reason or stuff damage/destroy his fabricator ship, the Primaris are done and Guilliman's only real advantage (other than his leadership position and his overblown ego) is lost. I smell some serious plot armour.

    sigh...Listen, what makes 40k (among other things) interesting, is that practically no one has plot armour and even those that do, their death would never really change much in the grand scheme of things. For example, Aun'Va (who was an actual faction leader and probably one of the most involved) is dead yet nothing has really changed. If Vect really got killed, it would change nothing because the one replacing him would be the same in all the things that count. The DE would still be raiders and hedonists trying to stave of the death of their souls by ever greater excesses of stimulus.
    That is why we cheer for the little guys of the Guard. Every time they make it out alive it is a real victory and every time the fail it is an honest defeat and not some writer's ploy to adhere to traditional story telling conventions.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    They're not. They're a few per thousand.
    I am gladly willing to concede any point for the sake of having a cool and interesting setting, but this one I cannot let go.
    If it were a 1-3 per 1000, the SM would be billions instead of 1 million barely holding back the tide of aliens, mutants and hereticschaos worshipers. SM production's biggest bottleneck has always been quality recruits. (As we here have proven several times in this thread that when the SM really need Geneseed, they are quite capable of producing it in large quantities. Something about 1000 geneseed in 50 years?)

    I'll reiterate my statement that the Primaris are contrived, but frak it. it does not matter, because they don't matter. They are literally a new toy for kids to buy, nothing else. (And I like toys, don#t get me wrong.)
    What matters is how Guilliman's return and subsequent actions have changed the status quo of 40k. That the Imperium is on the attack again, is what matters. What cool new and interesting stories will come from it, is what matters.

    Tell me Cheesegear, (and please remember that I have a lot of respect for you and your opinion) is the new stuff cool and interesting?




    PS: BTW, this means I spend over 2 hours responding to details that are unimportant in the grand scheme of things. Frak me, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul View Post
    I haven't read any of the new books, but from what I have seen I'm inclined to agree that Cawl is pretty contrived.
    Cawl was one of the Magi who helped The Emperor Himself design the Black Carapace, since Thunder Warriors sucked. Sure. The Emperor worked with a team of scientists, and somebody had to be one of them. Since the beginning, Cawl has believed in innovation. After all, he was a student of the Emperor. Why should Cawl be held back by luddites? Cawl gives himself illegal brain mods to make himself super smart. Cawl's boss sides with Horus, 'cause she's a Heretek who knows about cloning. Cawl goes along with it...Until he sees Heretic Horus and he bounces. But before he switches sides for the second time, he kills his old boss, and eats her brain, gaining her knowledge of cloning.

    So, Cawl has a quasi-AI brain that no-one knows about, and he knows about cloning...Which he also shouldn't know about.

    After the Heresy, Guilliman finds the smartest dude he can find...Yeah. Unsurprisingly, it's the dude with an illegal logic engine in his head (what Guilliman wont know, wont hurt him). **** is getting really real. So Guilliman gives him two Missions, because Guilliman knows that this Cawl dude is the only guy who actually gives a crap about innovation. The rest of the Mechanicus - except Land - are a bunch of idiots;
    1. If Guilliman dies, resurrect him.
    2. Make better Space Marines.

    Cawl then jumps into his personal Ark Mechanicus, which doubles as a Forgeship, and begins creating a whole bunch of new technologies. Mind-wiping himself at least twice (but not mind-wiping himself so hard that he's not Cawl anymore, nor does he forget his Mission, nor does he lose any of his knowledge and...It's really convenient how selective mind-wiping seems to be), and creating at least a dozen clone-robots housing portions of his intelligence, each. That way, a Cawl can be in many places at once. Whilst the real Cawl is safe somewhere doing whatever he does and not being hunted down by the Puritanical Mechanicus.

    So far, so good.
    We've got a dude who is nominally on the side of the Imperium, however we, the audience, know that he's only out for himself. We know that he's a shady dude. But we also know, that he's good to his word. He did rez Guilliman, and he did end up make Primaris Marines (however War of Secrets raises a whole bunch of questions about that).

    Where things go off the rails, is that ten thousand years is a really long time.
    [Scenes Deleted]
    *Smash Cut*

    Cawl is on a Necron planet talking to a Harlequin, and thus, we open The Gathering Storm.

    Post-Gathering Storm...
    The Cawl Inferior isn't an AI because Cawl said it isn't. Yes. There is one particular clone-robot that is more special than all Cawl's other clone-robots. And it hangs around Guilliman way too much.
    Cawl really, really, really wants to be Fabricator-General now that he's out in the open again.
    The Primaris Marines are acting screwy.

    I don't see anything wrong with introducing this kind of character, with this kind of character into 40K's setting. Cawl's great.

    However. I'm in my early 30s. I can only comprehend time in single decades. I can't even realise how long the end of WW2 was, because it was over twice my lifespan ago, and that's modern history. Now, in 3000 BC, Troy was only just founded. Now, consider the time between the founding of Troy, and now. Then realise that Cawl has been alive for roughly twice that time. It's mind-boggling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Platinius View Post
    So you are saying Cawl was already capable of making Primaris Marines shortly after HH and deliberately withheld the technology to make better SM from the Imperium after a terrible loss of fighting capability?
    Yes.

    I find that hard to believe and treasonous to boot.
    Correct. Welcome to realising that Cawl is not a good guy.

    He has had a state of the art fabricator ship from Great Crusade days for 10000 years in Terra's and Mars' backyard
    No. It's somewhere in space. It moves. Because it's a ship. It travels around the Galaxy looking for Necron and Aeldari technology to bring people back to life and make better manufactured materials.

    and nobody with authority ever questioned it or came looking?
    ...Just 'cause you look, doesn't mean you get results.
    How many times has Gabriel Seth been under the microscope?
    Hell, the Space Wolves went to open warfare with the Inquisition.

    Questions and Authority don't mean ****. Because nobody has to answer to anyone. And with the amount of personal power that Cawl has at his disposal, given to him by a Primarch himself...He can do whatever he wants, and sweep anyone that comes looking under the rug. Same as what Seth does.

    Several thousand Marines in ten thousand years is an abysmal rate of production
    Only if he was working on them non-stop for the entire time, which he wasn't. He was working on amassing his own personal power for later use not, to mention studying Pylons that Abaddon would come out every other millennia looking for.

    So the Primaris Marines are not phasing the old school marines any time soon, because the old school method simply outproduces the new one and there is no guaranty that the new marines actually perform better than the old models since, I promise you, mental strength matters just as much if not more than physical one.
    No. The Primaris Marines are not phasing out the old Marines, because there is literally one person alive with the knowledge of how to make them.

    that means that should Cawl die/incapacitated for whatever reason or stuff damage/destroy his fabricator ship
    For reference, my previous post outlines how Cawl wont be dying anytime soon, as he is effectively immortal via Doombots.

    SM production's biggest bottleneck has always been quality recruits.
    1. Gene-seed stock. It takes 8-10 years to get one. Unless you're working with the 5% on Mars. Which you're not. Because that's Mars' and is explicitly for bringing Chapters back from the dead, or creating new ones. The 50 Mars has is for emergencies only, or if the High Lords need a new Founding - which is essentially just an emergency has already happened, hence the creation of new Chapters. Space Marines' bottleneck is gene-seed. Not Recruits. Founding Chapters on brand new reclaimed planets doesn't seem to be a problem. That's why gene-seed is worth ten thousand times its weight in Thrones, and that's why Space Marines take Apothecaries into battle on the front lines just so that they can recover it - even while under fire. That is, Space Marines' production bottleneck, within their Chapter, is getting Neophytes to 18 years old, and not being dead...

    2. An Astartes Chapter would probably be willing to kill every single 10 year-old on the planet, if they could get a proportional number of Neophytes out of it. The confirmed rate by several novels, is a 3-5 per 1000-2000 children (8-10 years old, male, in good physical and mental health). Being aware that the other 99.85% of those 2000 ten-year old children either die, get lobotomised or become Chapter Serfs. Maybe that works out to one in a billion? But I don't care to do the maths, because I'm not that particularly interested. It certainly doesn't seem like a Chapter scours the entire planet for 2000 ten year-olds. But... They can't make any more than that, because they don't have the gene-seed for it. Now, when you take the whole 5% (50) from Mars, and you set out to create a new Chapter from scratch on a brand new reclaimed world that no-one has set foot on in a while...They seem to be able to get 1000 fully fledged Marines out of it. If Space Marines are one in a billion, a new Homeworld would have to have ~1000*1000000000 people on it in the span of 50 years. That ain't right.

    3. The Codex Astartes. By law, Space Marines are not allowed to have too many Recruits. Of course, a whole bunch of Chapters don't care.

    They are literally a new toy for kids to buy, nothing else.
    Well, if you don't care about progression of the timeline and what clearly looks like a Civil War arc, sure.

    What cool new and interesting stories will come from it, is what matters.
    You mean aside from Cawl building a personal army and being angry that he's not being given more responsibility after being instrumental in resurrecting the Imperium after Noctis Aeterna?

    Tell me Cheesegear, (and please remember that I have a lot of respect for you and your opinion) is the new stuff cool and interesting?
    Depends on the book. Same as always.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2018-11-09 at 11:34 AM.
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    I'm starting to realise that where AOS is WHF blenderized, reconstituted, and turned up to 300%, everything since the start of the Gathering Storm has been slowly turning the dial of 40K up to, like, 150%. Men of Iron, ten thousand year old dudes, Primarchs returning from the literal dead... its recognisably 40K, but, like, bass boosted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    everything since the start of the Gathering Storm has been slowly turning the dial of 40K up to, like, 150%. Men of Iron, ten thousand year old dudes, Primarchs returning from the literal dead...
    Well, yeah. It's called a soft reboot. It's the same...Except more.
    Just you wait 'til Creed comes out of his Necron Pokéball wearing a Dreadknight-sized Necrodermis super suit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Well, yeah. It's called a soft reboot. It's the same...Except more.
    Just you wait 'til Creed comes out of his Necron Pokéball wearing a Dreadknight-sized Necrodermis super suit.
    Ah, but will he be able to Scout himself?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kris Strife View Post
    Ah, but will he be able to Scout himself?
    Of course he will be. He is a TACTICAL GENIUS, after all.
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    You may remember the last thing we spoke of at the end of the previous thread? The creation of Warhammer Adventures; Black library novels for Young Adults, bringing the grimdark to a new generation of enthusiasts and hobbyists.

    The wheels have been set in motion to produce the first two novels - Attack of the Necron and City of Lifestone - as audionovels, and it has recently been announced that GW has splashed out on celebrity narrators for the series.

    The 40k novel (so far only the first is confirmed) will be read by the Doctor himself David "the 10th" Tennant and the AoS story by his assistant Billie "Rose" Piper. Both of these right on the tail of the latest Gotrek novel - Realmslayer - being voiced by the astoundingly-qualified thespian BRIAN BLESSED.

    I'm intrigued to see how much further that GW goes with this - while the Venn Diagram between "GW fans" and "sci-fi nerds" is pretty much a 99% overlap anyway, this is some seriously impressive mainstream appeal and begs the question: Who could be next?
    I wonder if Rowan Atkinson could be persuaded to pick up the Ciaphas Cain anthology....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I wonder if Rowan Atkinson could be persuaded to pick up the Ciaphas Cain anthology....
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    The need to hire BRIAN BLESSED to narrate all of their Audiobooks. He has the appropriate level of ham for 40k
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Well, if you don't care about progression of the timeline and what clearly looks like a Civil War arc, sure.
    All of 40k is effectively a civil war arc, I'm not sure how different they're going to make a new one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I wonder if Rowan Atkinson could be persuaded to pick up the Ciaphas Cain anthology....
    IIRC, there's a Cain audiodrama just released/coming out soon, so highly doubtful or it'd have already been screamed from the rooftops that CC is being voiced by Blackadder.

    IoN:
    - Titan's Bane is a pretty decent audio drama, and not at all the usual sort of thing you'd expect from a story about a Shadowsword and her crew. Recommended.
    - Eye of Night is a fairly meh audio drama, but if you want Inquisitor action ak-shun, then it's got both Greyfax and another inquisitor who the oldies should reconise (but I won't spoil who). I wonder if GW is handing out 'member berries, 'cause there's a couple of old references that haven't been heard of in over a decade popping up everywhere these days. I'll probably pick up Hand of Darkness next week on my way back to work so I can hear about the other half of the story.
    - Agent of the Throne is the first part of the series from what I can tell and despite being by John French, it's exactly the same story you've heard from literally any other inquisitor story. A little disappointing, but I'll probably get the next one in the series because a) I'm short on audiodramas to listen to on a very long and boring trip and b ) I'm hoping that the groundwork has been set and John French will entertain me with the second bit.
    - Finished the first Enforcer book and was a little disappointed in the ending, but overall the book is still great. Started the second and while it's very different fromt he first, I'm quite liking this as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeSwordfish View Post
    I'm starting to realise that where AOS is WHF blenderized, reconstituted, and turned up to 300%, everything since the start of the Gathering Storm has been slowly turning the dial of 40K up to, like, 150%. Men of Iron, ten thousand year old dudes, Primarchs returning from the literal dead... its recognisably 40K, but, like, bass boosted.
    Well, 40k has always been the poster boy of "EVERYTHING turned up to 11", so it's only kind of fitting that they at some point turn the wheel up another notch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drasius View Post
    IIRC, there's a Cain audiodrama just released/coming out soon, so highly doubtful or it'd have already been screamed from the rooftops that CC is being voiced by Blackadder.
    There have been a couple already produced - Dead In The Water and The Devil You Know - voiced by Toby Longworth, Gareth Armstrong, Jonathan Keeble and a few other regulars. I doubt there's any particular impetus to change that formula, but you never know.

    In fact.... I think I mentioned Dead In The Water a while ago in a mini-review - a good retelling of Apocalypse Now-in-40k marred only by the fact that Toby Longworth might actually be a Space Marine, and as such his range of voices tend to blur together when doing mortals; at one point it sounded like Ciaphas Cain was sharing a drink with Horus Lupercal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Delta View Post
    Well, 40k has always been the poster boy of "EVERYTHING turned up to 11", so it's only kind of fitting that they at some point turn the wheel up another notch.
    Turned Up To Eleven, which has been turned up to 11, one might say.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Turned Up To Eleven, which has been turned up to 11, one might say.
    Yeah, the thing is, back in the day, 40k was supposed to be a good part satire by hyperbole. "Oh, you like ridiculously massive armor with spikes? Our Chaos Marines have armor so evil the spikes have spikes. With poison. You like big guns? Here have this ridiculously huge OMGWTF bolter so big a normal human almost can't carry it! You want big wars with huge armies? Here you have a setting so ridicoulously huge everyone has been at war with everyone else (often including themselves) for TEN THOUSAND YEARS! You think the Star Wars Empire is evil because of the Death Star? Yeah, in our Imperium, they kill their own planets every now and then and think they're doing something good because our world is so amazingly effed up."

    But in the last 20 years, grimdark has become so mainstream, it's not really hyperbole anymore, because everyone is doing it in one way or another. So it's only fitting to take it to the next level somehow with EVEN BIGGER Marines and so on.

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