Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

[LansXero]

The fluff says bolter ammo's supposed to be super expensive let alone bolt weapons, but commissars are perfectly fine spending those just to kill their own troops.

Treason is more costly. If a bolt to the head of a retreating guardsmen can keep a line from breaking, then its a worthy investment.

But they aren't, they're launching a new crusade at the Damocles Gulf. Because clearly with chaos/orks/nids still rampaging accross the galaxy, somehow Rowboat the High Lords think that trying to take back a bunch of planets they did their best to burn to the ground is worth throwing resources at.

The Gilded Worlds were absurdly valuable the first time around, and that hasn't changed after the Cicatrix Maledictum opened. Also, because of hurt pride.

Thing is, from the moment the Imperium met the Tau they passed an edict to wipe them out, and did try to do it several times. But thousands of years later the Tau are still standing. And "we're too busy with chaos/xenos" never really cut it as an excuse since Tau also have to deal with those for those thousands of years.

No, they were sheltered by a curiously convenient warp storm.

Which makes sense considering that the Imperium's main tactic of sending wave after wave of guardsmen with cardboard armor and flashlights ends pretty poorly when faced with disciplined gunlines with proper guns that won't just stand and wait for you to reach melee range. And even sphech merine chapter masters pop just fine to a well placed melta fusion gun.

For all that and after successive surprise innovations, Shadowsun was about to lose, hard, when Farsight arrived. The schism is a byproduct of Ethereal society, and what won the day was overwhelming, excessive use of mechanized force; the Mont'ka against the failed Shadowsun's Kauyon. Because subtlety and discipline are worth **** when faced with overwhelming force. For all the missdirection and superior 'sensible' strategy and the billions of dead T'au, it was the Mechanicum's disregard for decency, morals, ecology and any sort of sustainability of the region that ended up winning. So say what you want about how bad the Imperium is, the Imperium overcomes.

[Xenopax]

Couldn't something like a Melta pistol (can't remember their name) or even one of those nice Flashlight pistols that actually do damage be used? Or perhaps a Handcannon. Best would be to just slice his head off. Least wastage of resources.

[LansXero]

Couldn't something like a Melta pistol (can't remember their name) or even one of those nice Flashlight pistols that actually do damage be used? Or perhaps a Handcannon. Best would be to just slice his head off. Least wastage of resources.

Meltas are even more expensive. Depending on the comissar, they do use melee weapons (power swords, power sabres, etc), inferno pistols, plasma pistols, etc. It varies quite a bit.

[Destro_Yersul]

There's also plot armour. If GW ever lets the Tau get wiped out, they'll stop selling Tau minis. Can't have that.

[Wraith]

Couldn't something like a Melta pistol (can't remember their name) or even one of those nice Flashlight pistols that actually do damage be used? Or perhaps a Handcannon. Best would be to just slice his head off. Least wastage of resources.

Ciaphas Cain addresses this in one of his novels. He personally prefers a laspistol because it's light and has no recoil, while the other commissars that he meets use a variety of las- and stubguns. Tomas Beige in particular uses an autopistol (an "uzi").

A Bolt Pistol, however, is seen to be a MANLY weapon (despite being expensive, bulky and recoils like crazy), so the in-universe art tends to depict heroes as using one, regardless of the truth.
As such, the image of him on the cover to his own books *is* in-universe propaganda, rather than the more traditional depiction of what is in the book. It's all very meta.

[The Patterner]

Couldn't something like a Melta pistol (can't remember their name) or even one of those nice Flashlight pistols that actually do damage be used? Or perhaps a Handcannon. Best would be to just slice his head off. Least wastage of resources.

I'm remodeling my commisars to have huge revolvers, so basically handcannons.

Because, well, handcannons are awesome

[Cheesegear]

Because, well, handcannons are awesome

"We call this piece, 'The Fecalator'."

[Brookshw]

I'm remodeling my commisars to have huge revolvers, so basically handcannons.

Because, well, handcannons are awesome

Well now I just want to convert an autocannon.

[Ornithologist]

Ciaphas Cain addresses this in one of his novels. He personally prefers a laspistol because it's light and has no recoil, while the other commissars that he meets use a variety of las- and stubguns. Tomas Beige in particular uses an autopistol (an "uzi").

A Bolt Pistol, however, is seen to be a MANLY weapon (despite being expensive, bulky and recoils like crazy), so the in-universe art tends to depict heroes as using one, regardless of the truth.
As such, the image of him on the cover to his own books *is* in-universe propaganda, rather than the more traditional depiction of what is in the book. It's all very meta.

More so, because Jurgen Looted that Bolt Pistol for him from somewhere I can't recall, and he keeps it specifically for propaganda use.

[deuterio12]

Ciaphas Cain addresses this in one of his novels. He personally prefers a laspistol because it's light and has no recoil, while the other commissars that he meets use a variety of las- and stubguns. Tomas Beige in particular uses an autopistol (an "uzi").

Funny because in Ice Guard lasweapons have enough recoil to break the ice that until now was holding a guardsman just fine.

And in Dawn of War we can clearly see that Commissar laspistols do have recoil. And yep, Dawn of War's canon since it's the only source of Tau sterelization camps that keeps being used in this threads, you can't just cherry pick the bits you like.

A Bolt Pistol, however, is seen to be a MANLY weapon (despite being expensive, bulky and recoils like crazy), so the in-universe art tends to depict heroes as using one, regardless of the truth.
As such, the image of him on the cover to his own books *is* in-universe propaganda, rather than the more traditional depiction of what is in the book. It's all very meta.

If it's all just propaganda, how can you trust any bit of it? How do you know the bits where he's lying and when he's telling the truth?

And why stop there? Why not propaganda pics of every manly sergeant with a bolt pistol? Full regiments of manly guardsmen with bolters?

[LeSwordfish]

, you can't just cherry pick the bits you like.

oh my god the irony of deuterio saying this

[Wraith]

Funny because in Ice Guard lasweapons have enough recoil to break the ice that until now was holding a guardsman just fine.

I'm happy to refine my statement to "comparatively little recoil". The point is, that's why Caine likes them more than bolters.

And in Dawn of War we can clearly see that Commissar laspistols do have recoil. And yep, Dawn of War's canon since it's the only source of Tau sterelization camps that keeps being used in this threads, you can't just cherry pick the bits you like.

I'm honestly happy to agree with you, regading DoW being canon. It passes my usual standards of suspect IP, which is that it all happens on one insignificant planet in the middle of nowhere and generally doesn't affect the galaxy at large, so why NOT let it be canon?

If it's all just propaganda, how can you trust any bit of it? How do you know the bits where he's lying and when he's telling the truth?

That's the entire point of the Cain series. It's stated in the text, by multiple characters, including the protagonist.... Who might even then be lying, and admits it. It's not meant to be controversial.
That's why we sometimes get sneered at when our only support for a point is "because it was in a Cain novel", compared to a source written by someone who is not so focused on the satire.

And why stop there? Why not propaganda pics of every manly sergeant with a bolt pistol? Full regiments of manly guardsmen with bolters?

What, like this?

The Cain series are among the only openly satirical books in the BL range, but there's deliberate shades of this in Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Shia Calpurnia.... Not to mention the Infantryman's Uplifting Primer. In-universe, the sheer outrageous manliness of the 'Guard can so barely be contained in paper and ink format, that it leaks out into our own!

oh my god the irony of deuterio saying this

Irony: A 5-letter word which means "a bit like iron".

[Xenopax]

Autopistols are the best at executing Heretics! 9/10 Commissars say they prefer Dominatus Autopistols for slaughtering those filthy traitors! Why have a bolt pistol and execute just one traitor at a time, when with an Autopistol you can execute 10 with a single sweep of your gun! Buy a Dominatus Autopistol Today!

Anyway I think Handcannons would be best for loyal(Ish) regiments and for regiments like the savlar (Pretty sure I spelled that wrong) chem-dogs, autopistols for efficiency and so they don't get overwhelmed by the swarms of Chem-dog heretics.

[Forum Explorer]

I'm happy to refine my statement to "comparatively little recoil". The point is, that's why Caine likes them more than bolters.

I think it's more that he's used to the laspistol. And changing to a heavier weapon would throw his aim off because it has a different amount of recoil.

[The Glyphstone]

He won't even upgrade to a hellpistol at this point, despite it functionally being a higher-powered version of the laspistol with exactly the same degree of recoil. The weight of the gun itself would be enough to throw off his aiming reflexes.

[Xenopax]

Extra weight and recoil should be fine. You don't need to aim carefully since you're in close range and the guardsman most likely has his back to you.

[Destro_Yersul]

Cain doesn't shoot his own men. Not because he cares about them, according to him, but because if they like him he's less likely to 'accidentally' become a victim of 'friendly fire' when things get messy.

[LCP]

Any book that says lasguns should have recoil is just being daft. E=pc for photons, to get the momentum of e.g. a slow-pitched softball in recoil you'd need to have an energy output per shot of 2.4 gigajoules. That's about 2,000 times more energy than you get from the main gun on an Abrams tank.

You can come up with fancy 40K justifications (like how caseless bolter rounds still eject shell cases) but any such justification ends up having to say that:
1. The Munitorum puts additional kit into their lasers (more cost!) that makes them do more things than just be a laser
2. The additional kit is there specifically to make the laser gun harder to handle + wear out faster.

[The Glyphstone]

Are the Soul Drinkers novels any good?

[Xenopax]

Any book that says lasguns should have recoil is just being daft. E=pc for photons, to get the momentum of e.g. a slow-pitched softball in recoil you'd need to have an energy output per shot of 2.4 gigajoules. That's about 2,000 times more energy than you get from the main gun on an Abrams tank.

You can come up with fancy 40K justifications (like how caseless bolter rounds still eject shell cases) but any such justification ends up having to say that:
1. The Munitorum puts additional kit into their lasers (more cost!) that makes them do more things than just be a laser
2. The additional kit is there specifically to make the laser gun harder to handle + wear out faster.

Tis the rule of cool. Your ungodly sciences have no power over it.

The only sciency reason I could think of is that maybe the kick is from the machinery inside? But that feels more like a heating issue.

[Blackhawk748]

The only explanation ive ever heard for Lasguns having recoil is that they put a piston in there so when it fires it "kicks" like it should. Cuz otherwise it screws with the shooter.

[deuterio12]

I'm happy to refine my statement to "comparatively little recoil". The point is, that's why Caine likes them more than bolters.

He also likes to get close and personal with swords, even against chaos marines, so I would seriously question his taste for guns of any kind.

I'm honestly happy to agree with you, regading DoW being canon. It passes my usual standards of suspect IP, which is that it all happens on one insignificant planet in the middle of nowhere and generally doesn't affect the galaxy at large, so why NOT let it be canon?

Ah, the usual excuse of "bah we didn't care about that army/planet/system anyway, that's why we threw so many resources trying to hold it!".

That's the entire point of the Cain series. It's stated in the text, by multiple characters, including the protagonist.... Who might even then be lying, and admits it. It's not meant to be controversial.
That's why we sometimes get sneered at when our only support for a point is "because it was in a Cain novel", compared to a source written by someone who is not so focused on the satire.

I must say, that's a surprisingly refreshing reply.

What, like this?

That's not a simple sergeant, that's one of the biggest imperial heroes. All the golden bling should be a dead giveaway.

The Cain series are among the only openly satirical books in the BL range, but there's deliberate shades of this in Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Shia Calpurnia.... Not to mention the Infantryman's Uplifting Primer. In-universe, the sheer outrageous manliness of the 'Guard can so barely be contained in paper and ink format, that it leaks out into our own!

Well it wouldn't be 40K without a good chunk of satire on it.

Like the most famous commissar is the one that admits he's a coward and never (openly) executes his dudes.

Any book that says lasguns should have recoil is just being daft. E=pc for photons, to get the momentum of e.g. a slow-pitched softball in recoil you'd need to have an energy output per shot of 2.4 gigajoules. That's about 2,000 times more energy than you get from the main gun on an Abrams tank.

Here's an example of a common lasgun:

Notice anything funny?

That's right, virtually every depiction of a lasgun has the classic anti-recoil part! Considering that the main selling point of the lasgun is that it's supposed to be super cheap to mass produce, why are they wasting valuable materials for non-necessary bits?

And again, both in non-blatant-propaganda books (Ice Guard has the protagonists ending up failing their mission) and actually animated depictions (every Dawn of War game with imperial guard) we can see the clear effects of lasgun recoil.

Tis the rule of cool. Your ungodly sciences have no power over it.

Hear, hear! Clearly lasguns actually channel your faith in the emprah (or chaos for traitor guard)!

[Xenopax]

The only explanation ive ever heard for Lasguns having recoil is that they put a piston in there so when it fires it "kicks" like it should. Cuz otherwise it screws with the shooter.

Why would it screw with the shooter though? If they've been trained in using lasguns then they should be used to it not kicking.

[LCP]

I didn't say it was 'canon' or not, I just said it was daft.

[Rizhail]

Here's an example of a common lasgun:

Notice anything funny?

That's right, virtually every depiction of a lasgun has the classic anti-recoil part! Considering that the main selling point of the lasgun is that it's supposed to be super cheap to mass produce, why are they wasting valuable materials for non-necessary bits?

That thing you're referring to is called the stock. The stock of a longarm is not solely used for recoil control, though it certainly does have that as one of its functions. The stock also allows the weapon to be aimed accurately, as it is much easier to line up your eye with the sights/barrel of the weapon using your torso as leverage rather than just your wrists/arms, not to mention it is much easier to keep the weapon steady, and can also act as a cheek rest when aiming if the stock is the right shape. It also allows you to rest the weight of the gun against your shoulder, reducing how fast your arms are fatigued from holding the weapon in a firing position (average military firearm is 7 lbs/3.5kg; held at arms length, it will wear your arm out rather quickly). And a stock makes it possible to reload your typical military firearm without moving the weapon much (bracing it against the shoulder while using one hand to work the magazine release and reloading).

So yeah, rifle-esque weapon having a stock doesn't really indicate that it has recoil.

I chalk up lasguns being depicted with recoil in the same vein as shuriken weapons that have laser-looking effects, boltguns listed as using depleted deuterium cores for armor penetration, and the fact that no one seems to agree on what the hell a meltagun actually does besides making problems go away: just because one or more sources depict it that way, doesn't make it not-stupid.

[Shadowy]

Lasguns have stocks and recoil for the same reason that they fire slow, visible chunks of light:

The Omnissah demands that you witness the glory of his creations.

[Xenopax]

You want to talk weird weapon designs? What about chainswords? They'd clog up from all the guts and flesh being put into them. And if Its anything like some of the chain stuff in real life, you'd end up being drawn along by it. So you wouldn't be able to take it out of the body as easily because it would be hooked in. Have you ever tried getting one of those barbed fishing hooks out of your skin? I'd imagine it'd be like that.


They do look and sound awesome though.

[LeSwordfish]

I actually quite like the idea that the original lasguns had artificial recoil generators just to be more familiar to soldiers used to older guns, and that nobody could ever take them out because people grew up used to it. That seems very 40k to me. Like a laser version of the QWERTY keyboard.

[Kris Strife]

I've heard one theory is that it, and the noise lasguns make is due to incredibly localized thunder. Just like with lightning, it's superheating the air in a quick burst. The air expands, pushes the gun away and makes a noise.

With a bit more thinking, there could also be something in the guns themselves that does cause the recoil, to help run more air through the gun to speed up cooling for the next shot or something like that.

[hamishspence]

Cain doesn't shoot his own men. Not because he cares about them, according to him, but because if they like him he's less likely to 'accidentally' become a victim of 'friendly fire' when things get messy.

He shoots them very rarely. But it does happen - just much less often than with a more conventional commissar.

Usually it's more "have them shot" (or flogged) after a major breach of discipline, rather than personally doing so on the field of battle.

As he once put it, about incompetence that gets people killed:

"People have been shot for less. Some of them by me."