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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    He shoots them very rarely. But it does happen - just much less often than with a more conventional commissar.

    Usually it's more "have them shot" (or flogged) after a major breach of discipline, rather than personally doing so on the field of battle.

    As he once put it, about incompetence that gets people killed:

    "People have been shot for less. Some of them by me."
    That's true, he does do it ocassionally, but he typically makes it very clear why it was necessary. Like the Genestealer'd guys in book 1.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenopax View Post
    You want to talk weird weapon designs? What about chainswords? They'd clog up from all the guts and flesh being put into them. And if Its anything like some of the chain stuff in real life, you'd end up being drawn along by it. So you wouldn't be able to take it out of the body as easily because it would be hooked in. Have you ever tried getting one of those barbed fishing hooks out of your skin? I'd imagine it'd be like that.


    They do look and sound awesome though.
    That's literally their official intended use:

    Lastly, and most importantly, you must be able to wield a chainsword. Indeed it is impossible to effectively lead a squad without one. Chainswords are more than just weapons****. They are totems of your Emperor-granted authority. Use them to direct your squad’s fire, order an advance, and signal victory with a glorious thrust into the air (see bulletin #723-89A for advice on heroic poses)
    ...
    ****While your chainsword can also be used as a weapon, this is of secondary importance. The spinning, barbed teeth will throw blood and viscera all over your uniform, obscuring your Sergeant’s patch. If you must engage the enemy with your chainsword (ie, if you have failed in your duty to annihilate them at range), you may be well advised to use it as a sturdy club instead. Any damage to the weapon will be taken from your pay.


    There's a reason why even in tabletop chainswords just hit as hard as any random piece of metal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizhail View Post
    That thing you're referring to is called the stock. The stock of a longarm is not solely used for recoil control, though it certainly does have that as one of its functions. The stock also allows the weapon to be aimed accurately, as it is much easier to line up your eye with the sights/barrel of the weapon using your torso as leverage rather than just your wrists/arms, not to mention it is much easier to keep the weapon steady, and can also act as a cheek rest when aiming if the stock is the right shape. It also allows you to rest the weight of the gun against your shoulder, reducing how fast your arms are fatigued from holding the weapon in a firing position (average military firearm is 7 lbs/3.5kg; held at arms length, it will wear your arm out rather quickly). And a stock makes it possible to reload your typical military firearm without moving the weapon much (bracing it against the shoulder while using one hand to work the magazine release and reloading).

    So yeah, rifle-esque weapon having a stock doesn't really indicate that it has recoil.
    Lasgun. Very ammo-economical so it rarely needs to reload. Also guardsmen are trained for volley fire into mobs of big orks/xenos/other blobs of guardsmen so acuraccy is a secondary concern at best, plus your officer has probably ordered you to charge into the breach so no time to steady anything. And if it's too heavy, it's just easier to remove unneeded bits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizhail View Post
    I chalk up lasguns being depicted with recoil in the same vein as shuriken weapons that have laser-looking effects, boltguns listed as using depleted deuterium cores for armor penetration, and the fact that no one seems to agree on what the hell a meltagun actually does besides making problems go away: just because one or more sources depict it that way, doesn't make it not-stupid.
    I could also point out that all lasguns have barrels the length of normal rifles... Which are basically useless for lasers. Adding barrels somehow makes the gun lighter? They also make a comfy pillow to rest your head?

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    There's a reason why even in tabletop chainswords just hit as hard as any random piece of metal.
    Yeah, it's the minimal granularity in tabletop rules. They're significantly better in the RPGs.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul View Post
    Yeah, it's the minimal granularity in tabletop rules. They're significantly better in the RPGs.
    I was gonna say! Chainswords are extremely deadly weapons.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    I was gonna say! Chainswords are extremely deadly weapons.
    Of course it's deadly! It's a sword with teeth!

    I'm surprised the Charchardons don't use chain swords more often. It'd be more thematic. Another thing I'm suprised hasn't been done yet is Power Chainsword. If I remember correctly the closest thing that we have to that is Chain fist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timble View Post
    when an imperial knight says it wants to stick you in a large arena in which to fight to the death, you can't exactly say no.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    I could also point out that all lasguns have barrels the length of normal rifles... Which are basically useless for lasers. Adding barrels somehow makes the gun lighter? They also make a comfy pillow to rest your head?
    In a traditional weapon, a longer barrel (among other things) increases accuracy over a greater range.

    Given that as well as Las-Rifles, Las-carbines and Las-pistols also exist and have a shorter and shortest range respectively, there's probably a technological equivalent to rifling in laser weapons. Extra sets of magnifying lenses, or something - I'm pretty sure there's a cut-a-way diagram in one of the old rulebooks that proves this, maybe the 3rd edition BBB, but I forget exactly.

    It's also something to which a bayonet can be affixed, and a longer weapon is a more efficient lever when trying to disengage it from someone's chest cavity. Whereas Carbines and pistols have their place, Rifles are possibly the most ergonomically suited to mass production and general use by trillions of Guardsmen in various situations; the long barrel does nothing to aid or impede the rifle, but the shape and size makes it useful for other things besides shooting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenopax View Post
    I'm surprised the Carcharodons don't use chain swords more often.
    It's not that they dislike chainswords, in so far as they just tend to prefer chain-axes. The Carcharodons are not subtle.

    Another thing I'm surprised hasn't been done yet is Power Chainsword. If I remember correctly the closest thing that we have to that is Chain fist.
    Power weapons tend to be straight-up better than Chainswords, whose greatest benefit is that they are reasonably effective while remaining comparatively very cheap. Power Weapons slice through armour that Chainswords have to hack away at, so taking something that can already cleave through a Space Marine and making it less efficient would be weird.

    Similarly, chainswords require a certain amount of maintenance - the teeth get broken and the chains have to be replaced periodically. Having to make inherently disposable power-chains would be prohibitively expensive and complicated for even a single weapon, let alone doing it en-masse.

    Not to say that someone, somewhere, hasn't done it, of course, but it would likely be a bespoke item for a multi-millionaire lunatic rather than a common occurrence.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul View Post
    Yeah, it's the minimal granularity in tabletop rules. They're significantly better in the RPGs.
    Yeah and rpg heavy bolters will easily 1-round a daemon prince/hive tyrant. Funny how that never happens in the stories.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Maybe the machinery Is less compact? And that means less overheating explosions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timble View Post
    when an imperial knight says it wants to stick you in a large arena in which to fight to the death, you can't exactly say no.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Are the Soul Drinkers novels any good?
    I've only read Phalanx so my opinion's limited. Traditional bolter porn, typical Ben Counter writing. The main protagonist reminds me of Gabriel Seth with a certain fatalism / trying to keep it together / we're gonna go down swinging - sort of thing. It was okay for what it was, I only spent some of the time thinking to myself "wow people are stupidly stubborn in the worst ways".
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post

    There's a reason why even in tabletop chainswords just hit as hard as any random piece of metal.
    In 8e, Chainswords grant you an extra attack in close combat, whereas combat knives and the like, don't.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Yeah and rpg heavy bolters will easily 1-round a daemon prince/hive tyrant. Funny how that never happens in the stories.
    No they won't.

    Hive Tyrant has 120 wounds, armour 10, and 15 toughness bonus. Prince has 80 wounds, armour 12, and 12 toughness bonus. The most damaging HB in all the systems is the Deathwatch one, which does 2d10+10, AP6. Max damage for a single hit is 30, barring Righteous Fury, since Righteous Fury is by no means 'easily.' Assuming max damage from all hits, the Tyrant takes 11 wounds per hit, and the Prince takes 12. You therefore need at least 11 max damage hits to kill a Tyrant, which is beyond the bolter's firing rate of Full Auto 10. The Prince is slightly easier, he only takes 7 full damage hits to kill. Possible, but not probable.

    A Devastator with a Heavy Bolter is good. Very good. But he's not 'kill a Tyrant in one round' good, and never will be. The Prince, maybe, but that's assuming the best case scenario. The odds drop to zero if you use the alternate HB statline which does 1d10+12, or the HB from any other line.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Xenopax View Post
    Why would it screw with the shooter though? If they've been trained in using lasguns then they should be used to it not kicking.
    Because most people in the Imperium (if they own a weapon at all) own a slugthrower. So the random farm kid from Altris XII is used to shooting a gun that kicks.

    Also what someone else said. It's very possible it just started that way, and no one changed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kris Strife View Post
    I've heard one theory is that it, and the noise lasguns make is due to incredibly localized thunder. Just like with lightning, it's superheating the air in a quick burst. The air expands, pushes the gun away and makes a noise.

    With a bit more thinking, there could also be something in the guns themselves that does cause the recoil, to help run more air through the gun to speed up cooling for the next shot or something like that.
    That would make sense as last guns are described as making a crack noise when they fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    So the random farm kid from Altris XII is used to shooting a gun that kicks.
    Pretty sure that random farm kid is more used to bullseyeing womprats in his old T-16.

    More on point, las technology seems pretty widespread, I'm not really sure which is more prevalent between las and slugs. In Necromunda novels at least there seems to be a good number of las guns around. Going by table top and using GSC as a weather vane for what might be the most readily accessible to civilians, autoguns and lasguns (and shotguns) are all available. I also had the impression that a number of las guns end up passed down from the great-grandpappy who used to be in the guard (and even at the abysmal survival rate that entails, we're still talking about a lot of survivors with the enlistment rates).

    Are autoguns really all that much more prevalent?

    @ deuterio12: question about lasguns being "Very ammo-economical so it rarely needs to reload". Is this something covered in the RPG (which I've never played)? I was under the impression the ammo benefits of the lasgun were the easy recharge for the powerpacks (i.e., leave them out in the sun, throw them in a campfire, etc), but that they run out of juice just like everything else. How many shots do they get to a powerpack?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizhail View Post
    That thing you're referring to is called the stock. The stock of a longarm is not solely used for recoil control, though it certainly does have that as one of its functions. The stock also allows the weapon to be aimed accurately, as it is much easier to line up your eye with the sights/barrel of the weapon using your torso as leverage rather than just your wrists/arms, not to mention it is much easier to keep the weapon steady, and can also act as a cheek rest when aiming if the stock is the right shape. It also allows you to rest the weight of the gun against your shoulder, reducing how fast your arms are fatigued from holding the weapon in a firing position (average military firearm is 7 lbs/3.5kg; held at arms length, it will wear your arm out rather quickly). And a stock makes it possible to reload your typical military firearm without moving the weapon much (bracing it against the shoulder while using one hand to work the magazine release and reloading).
    To support Rizhail's comments on the stock, people have built stocks for the PS VR aim controller, which obviously has no recoil when shooting. Having used it myself, a two handed gun shaped controller feels really weird without a stock and I kept trying to hug it into my shoulder while playing Farpoint.

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    He shoots them very rarely. But it does happen - just much less often than with a more conventional commissar.
    Off the top of my head, the only friendly soldiers he's shot offhand were two troopers which had been implanted by genestealers and he proves it to the surrounding soldiers by cutting out the implanted 'stealer mass from the bodies afterwards.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Are the Soul Drinkers novels any good?
    I think Ben Counter is the 'most 40K' writer that's ever written anything, aside from ADB, he writes off of two principles; Make it GrimDark. Make it cool.
    He has a particular narrative style that, pretty much anything he writes can be taken out of context (Half-Spider Librarian Chapter Master, Khornate Grey Knight, etc.). But everything makes sense within the narrative. Which makes his particular way of story-telling pretty bizarre.

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul View Post
    A Devastator with a Heavy Bolter is good. Very good. But he's not 'kill a Tyrant in one round' good, and never will be.
    Thank you.
    A Unit of Space Marines can potentially drop a large, monster-like creature in one round, and a strong contributor of being able to do that, is by having a Heavy Bolter in the Team. I can see how deuterio might think a Heavy Bolter can drop a monster in one round, since 'Killing something in one round' and 'Heavy Bolter' are usually typed in the same sentence. But, true to form, either he's cherry-picked the part of the sentence that fits his argument ("Oh, the Devastator is also Rank 7+, and has all the Talents, including bonus damage against Tyranids."), or he's totally misunderstood what he's actually read.

    But, from my long experience playing Deathwatch, Majoris- and Extremis-level threats never appear in a vacuum. Now, while a Team could kill it in one round, three fifths of the Team is trying not to die, one Marine has triggered Primarch's Curse, and squad Cohesion has dropped through the floor, and the lone Marine still able to do max damage gets Disarmed (or dis-armed )and choke-slammed into the ground 'cause he has no backup.

    But, everyone knows that Deathwatch isn't actually a game, and is only ever a thought exercise on how many Melta- weapons it takes to kill a Hive Tyrant.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2018-06-01 at 09:57 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    @ deuterio12: question about lasguns being "Very ammo-economical so it rarely needs to reload". Is this something covered in the RPG (which I've never played)? I was under the impression the ammo benefits of the lasgun were the easy recharge for the powerpacks (i.e., leave them out in the sun, throw them in a campfire, etc), but that they run out of juice just like everything else. How many shots do they get to a powerpack?
    In the RPGs a standard lasgun has 60 shots per pack, less if you dial it up to deal more damage which is very inefficient. An autogun has 30 shots per clip as I recall but has a much higher maximum rate of fire*.

    The las will last you longer without reloading but the autogun is better for mowing people down very quickly, at least in theory. The laspack is also easy to recharge by just plugging it into any power source while you'd have to buy new autogun rounds.



    *Lasguns have S/3/-, autoguns have S/3/10. Both can semi-auto for up to three hits but lasguns can't full auto while the autogun can do so for up to 10 hits.

    EDIT: The lasgun also has a rule that makes it very hard to jam, which doesn't come up often but can be a lifesaver when it does.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul View Post
    No they won't.

    Hive Tyrant has 120 wounds, armour 10, and 15 toughness bonus. Prince has 80 wounds, armour 12, and 12 toughness bonus. The most damaging HB in all the systems is the Deathwatch one, which does 2d10+10, AP6. Max damage for a single hit is 30, barring Righteous Fury, since Righteous Fury is by no means 'easily.' Assuming max damage from all hits, the Tyrant takes 11 wounds per hit, and the Prince takes 12. You therefore need at least 11 max damage hits to kill a Tyrant, which is beyond the bolter's firing rate of Full Auto 10. The Prince is slightly easier, he only takes 7 full damage hits to kill. Possible, but not probable.

    A Devastator with a Heavy Bolter is good. Very good. But he's not 'kill a Tyrant in one round' good, and never will be. The Prince, maybe, but that's assuming the best case scenario. The odds drop to zero if you use the alternate HB statline which does 1d10+12, or the HB from any other line.
    It's been a while since I've played DW so this might be wrong:
    Heavy bolter does 2d10.
    Tearing allows it to roll another dice and switch one of them out if it's better.
    Righteous fury is on a 10.
    1/3 chance of rolling a 10 on each dice.
    Properly optimized, you stand a good chance of getting 2-3 righteous fury per round. Eventually ones going to roll a 9-10 on the RF and murder it horribly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timble View Post
    when an imperial knight says it wants to stick you in a large arena in which to fight to the death, you can't exactly say no.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    I've only read Phalanx so my opinion's limited. Traditional bolter porn, typical Ben Counter writing. The main protagonist reminds me of Gabriel Seth with a certain fatalism / trying to keep it together / we're gonna go down swinging - sort of thing. It was okay for what it was, I only spent some of the time thinking to myself "wow people are stupidly stubborn in the worst ways".
    Better than Nick Kyme at least?
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Better than Nick Kyme at least?
    As I said in my earlier post, and may have mentioned before, Ben Counter is my third-favourite writer, behind ADB and Graham McNeill.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    As I said in my earlier post, and may have mentioned before, Ben Counter is my third-favourite writer, behind ADB and Graham McNeill.
    Sounds like a solid endorsement to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

  21. - Top - End - #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Sounds like a solid endorsement to me.
    I have...Issues...With Phalanx. But, it's also one of the best novels in the six (plus one). If, like the other Poster, you read Phalanx by itself. Then yeah. The Chapter Master is fatalistic. But, within the story, he's had five books that have led to what is easily his worst point in the series, and he's been through a lot.

    My issue is that maybe Counter intended to leave the story open for another book. But, in order to do so, he had to soft-retcon a previous major plot point, that had actually made it into the 40K tabletop canon for a decade. It's actually rare that something written in a novel gets put into the BRB/Codecies. And Ben Counter kind of...Undid it. Which is kind of impossible to actually do, since four years IRL, after the publishing of Phalanx, The War of the Beast said that the Soul Drinkers were part of The Last Wall protocol, which should've been impossible given what happened in Phalanx.

    The alternative, is that both are true, and the Imperial Fists have been corrupted since M32.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenopax View Post
    It's been a while since I've played DW so this might be wrong:
    Heavy bolter does 2d10.
    Tearing allows it to roll another dice and switch one of them out if it's better.
    Righteous fury is on a 10.
    1/3 chance of rolling a 10 on each dice.
    Properly optimized, you stand a good chance of getting 2-3 righteous fury per round. Eventually ones going to roll a 9-10 on the RF and murder it horribly.
    Rolling a 10 is, naturally, 1/10 per dice. Bit of math tells me that the probability of rolling at least one 10, given two dice to do it, is 19%. Given 4 dice, it's 33%. Multi-event probabilities are not exactly my strong suit, but Deathwatch only allows one RF per hit anyways. You then need to confirm the RF, which is probably going to be about 70-80%, depending on a couple factors, but will in any case reduce the odds to about 26%. So, 1/4 of your hits will successfully generate additional damage. In the case of all 10 shots hitting, which itself is more or less impossible, 2.6 hits generate RF, typically for an average of 6 extra damage per, meaning 15.6 extra wounds dealt. While this does technically drop the tyrant into 'killable in one round' range, doing so still requires a set of circumstances so favourable as to be astronomically unlikely. Do note that my original math assumed you rolled a 10 on every single damage dice. With Tearing the chances of that are a little harder to calculate, but without it they're 1E-18 per cent.

    EDIT: Did the math. It's 3.75E-15%, which is better by a couple orders of magnitude, but still not very likely.
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  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Is righteous fury done differently in Deathwatch? In only war there's those tables that you roll on for it and usually anything beyond a 7 was crippling/Death
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    Deathwatch uses the original system for crits from DH1, Only War uses the one from Black Crusade.

    DH1/RT/DW whenever you roll a ten on the damage die for a non-psychic attack you roll to hit again, if you hit you get to roll another d10 damage and add it to your damage for the shot. Can't remember if they explode (as in a 10 on the bonus lets you roll another d10) by default or if that's just a common houserule.
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    There's probably Deathwatch Training to auto-confirm RF on xenos.

    On the other hand how often does the Kill Team fight a Hive Tyrant by itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    Deathwatch uses the original system for crits from DH1, Only War uses the one from Black Crusade.

    DH1/RT/DW whenever you roll a ten on the damage die for a non-psychic attack you roll to hit again, if you hit you get to roll another d10 damage and add it to your damage for the shot. Can't remember if they explode (as in a 10 on the bonus lets you roll another d10) by default or if that's just a common houserule.
    Thanks.

    Doesn't that mean (If we ignore the fact that Guardsmen have less wounds) a Guardsman could take down a Hive Tyrant faster than an Astartes specializing in the purging of such xenos? If we say he only gets 5 shots, he still has a really good chance of getting at least one RF. And if that ends up being a 9 or a 10 that thing is dead.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timble View Post
    when an imperial knight says it wants to stick you in a large arena in which to fight to the death, you can't exactly say no.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    No, because the OW/BC crit rules roll a d5 for their effect, and cannot benefit from crit- boosting effects or talents. So the Guardsman will never score above a Crit 5, and if the Tyrant has True Grit, which it probably does, he'll never see above Crit 2.
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Fel, on quest rewards View Post
    "Is a stack of ten pancakes too many pancakes to give to the party, even if most of them fell on the floor and one or two were stepped on? I wanted to give my party pancakes as a reward but I'm unsure if it's too much. The pancakes are also laced with blowfish poison so the party would have to get an antitoxin before they could eat the ones which weren't pulverized by shoes."

    I don't think anyone would want those pancakes even if you paid them to eat them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenopax View Post
    Thanks.

    Doesn't that mean (If we ignore the fact that Guardsmen have less wounds) a Guardsman could take down a Hive Tyrant faster than an Astartes specializing in the purging of such xenos? If we say he only gets 5 shots, he still has a really good chance of getting at least one RF. And if that ends up being a 9 or a 10 that thing is dead.
    Black Crusade and later (IE, Only War included) Righteous Fury is 1d5 on the critical table. It cannot possibly kill anything, merely debilitate and cripple. And a Guardsman's Lasgun is unlikely to actually harm a Hive Tyrant in the first place through the Tyrant's 24 damage soak, which defaults the Righteous Fury to 'do 1 Damage, unpreventable'.

    An entire squad of veteran Guardsmen from Only War (IE, 3000-ish XP under their belt) would want to be really, really careful engaging a starting Deathwatch Space Marine, since the Marine will likely debilitate or kill them in a single good hit while they need to get their heavier weapons on target to do more than chip damage to the Marine, who happens to have the edge in speed, tactical awareness and accuracy in addition to his outrageous superiority in firepower (his Bolter will rival or outmatch whatever the Weapon Specialist and Heavy Weapons troopers are packing, with none of the downsides) and durability . A Hive Tyrant will probably TPK all but the most absurdly high-level Only War squad, and they certainly stand no chance of killing one unless they have heavy vehicle support or artillery backing them up. It simply has too many Wounds and too much damage soak for them to deal with otherwise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    No, because the OW/BC crit rules roll a d5 for their effect, and cannot benefit from crit- boosting effects or talents. So the Guardsman will never score above a Crit 5, and if the Tyrant has True Grit, which it probably does, he'll never see above Crit 2.
    It doesn't, but even if it did it wouldn't matter. True Grit affects Critical Damage, and the bonus critical hit effects generated by RF in the later systems are explicitly not Critical Damage. If the guardsman somehow managed to get past its armour and toughness, which he wouldn't, then he'd still be able to get a crit 5.

    The RPGs tend to get a bit rocket tag-y on the higher end things, but all in all they're a reasonably accurate depiction of the power levels things are supposed to have in fluff. Heavy Bolters are nasty, and can indeed kill a Hive Tyrant if you have enough of them, firing enough bullets at it, for a long enough time. Five devastators with heavy bolters could take down a Tyrant much more easily than one could, though odds are decent it'd still take more than one round. Of course, last I checked five heavy bolters could probably down a tabletop Hive Tyrant too. And more to the point, as others have said, when is a Hive Tyrant ever alone?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Worst thing about "Boss" type enemies. There's always so many minor threats around them that stop you from focusing fire on them, unless you don't mind getting eaten by hive guard. Atleast Khornate ones can be isolated for a duel but then you have to go one on one melee with a guy worshipping the god of melee combat (Slaanesh is a freak and doesn't count)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timble View Post
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