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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Haval View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenopax View Post
    At least Khornate ones can be isolated for a duel but then you have to go one on one melee with a guy worshipping the god of melee combat...
    Not really. If there's multiple Berzerkers, they'll all be trying to get their own Skulls for the Skull Throne. What you really want, is for the Khornate guys to start attacking each other, so that when they get around to dealing with you, the survivors are down to half wounds.
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  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    In one of the black crusade books (Tome of Blood) or maybe Lexicanum it states something about issuing challenges to a single Khornate and they have to accept or they invoke the displeasure of their God. So I've played it as challenging a Khornate means no one will interfere or they'll get attacked by the Khornate you challenged. Khornes the God of Honor too and Duels are as Honourable as it gets.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timble View Post
    when an imperial knight says it wants to stick you in a large arena in which to fight to the death, you can't exactly say no.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Hey guys, i was wondering something..

    Lets say a green Astartes - either a late scout or a just-recently graduated Tactical marine - gets grievely injured in battle, do the Chapter still goes through the trouble of putting him in a Dreadnaught?

    Q2: playing Inquisitor Martyr, I was wondering how it would be for "modern" Acolytes to discover an ancient Cathedral to the God-Emperor..

    ..so ancient that it predates the Horus Heresy. Its one of the first churches to the GE..

    Should they destroy it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Hey guys, i was wondering something..

    Lets say a green Astartes - either a late scout or a just-recently graduated Tactical marine - gets grievely injured in battle, do the Chapter still goes through the trouble of putting him in a Dreadnaught?
    That will depend on the chapter, how easily they can access a spare dreadnought, and how the Astartes was injured. I would think that most chapters wouldn't but there is always the possibility that it could happen.

    Q2: playing Inquisitor Martyr, I was wondering how it would be for "modern" Acolytes to discover an ancient Cathedral to the God-Emperor..

    ..so ancient that it predates the Horus Heresy. Its one of the first churches to the GE..

    Should they destroy it?
    That really depends on the branch of the inquisition they are from, how well they know the true history of the Imperial Creed, and if they can find any chaotic taint. I would expect that most wouldn't unless the site was extremely heavily tainted by chaos. It would likely become one of the holiest sites in the imperium.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Wouldn't most pre-HH temples to the Emperor have been built by Lorgar?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    Wouldn't most pre-HH temples to the Emperor have been built by Lorgar?
    Maybe that's the point?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Q1: It depends on how he "died". If he died taking down something like a daemon Prince, then he has an ok chance of being interred. But if he fell to a group of boyz, probably not.

    Q2: if it hasn't been defaced and still is holy, they'd keep it. Humans were worshipping the emperor during the great crusade so.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timble View Post
    when an imperial knight says it wants to stick you in a large arena in which to fight to the death, you can't exactly say no.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    Wouldn't most pre-HH temples to the Emperor have been built by Lorgar?
    Exactly

    Do you preserve a Cathedral built by pre-Heresy Lorgar?

    Is it a Holiest of Place, or a massive corrupting influence?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Do you preserve a Cathedral built by pre-Heresy Lorgar?
    Pre-Heresy Lorgar? As in Great Crusade Lorgar? Yes. There's nothing tainted about it. If you don't preserve what Lorgar did before he turned to Chaos, you may as burn Adepta Sororitas at the stake, shatter the Adeptus Ministorum, and scuttle the Imperium as we know it. Everything the Imperium stands for, the God-Emperor of Man and Manifest Destiny, is written in the Lectitio Divinatus - the most holy text in the Imperium, written by Pre-Heresy Lorgar. Why would something be tainted before Lorgar turned to Chaos? That makes no sense.

    Also does the game explicitly mention pre-Heresy?
    'Ancient' is a vague word, and there's 10 thousand years between modern 40K, and the pre-Heresy.

    EDIT:
    Lorgar could also have post-hoc converted the Temple, without building it, himself. Humans built Temples all over the Galaxy to any number of Deities. A third of them were simply made up, the other third were Death Cults, and the other third were Solar Cults. A Temple built before the Heresy doesn't mean anything, unless it explicitly shows sign of Taint.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2018-06-16 at 12:20 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    This is, i thought there were corrupted Word Bearers before Lorgar, and i was wondering the extent and likelihood of which a worship building by the Word Bearee could have had a Chaos hand subtly corrupting its creation.

    Ya know, like using the number 8 everywhere.. :-P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    This is, i thought there were corrupted Word Bearers before Lorgar
    There were corrupted humans on Colchis, who Lorgar put to the sword before a full year before he ever even met The Emperor and Magnus.
    Lorgar executed one third of his own planet for worshiping Chaos. He cut the cancer out without any hesitation. Chaos is Wrong. The Emperor is coming, and you will kneel.
    Anyone doing that in his Legion would have met the same end.

    and i was wondering the extent and likelihood of which a worship building by the Word Bearee could have had a Chaos hand subtly corrupting its creation.
    The only member of the Old Faith left, during the Great Crusade, was Kor Phaeron. Kor Phaeron didn't dare do anything whilst Lorgar was still loyal to The Emperor. Y'know...From that time he executed one third of his own planet without remorse for worshiping false Gods. Kor Phaeron already used up his one chance with Lorgar, he's not going to get a second one. Kor Phaeron knows his own son - and his son does not forgive.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2018-06-16 at 06:56 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Id say purge it anyway. Just to be safe. We don't want to have approved it only to realize decades (or centuries) it has warp taint and has opened millions of people's eyes to Chaos. If you don't want to Raze it, you probably want a Sanctioned Psyker or two to scan the whole place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timble View Post
    when an imperial knight says it wants to stick you in a large arena in which to fight to the death, you can't exactly say no.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    So in my long-running Deathwatch game, the Assault Marine is finally about to run out of Fate Points, and plans on getting himself interred in a Dreadnought chassis (everyone+DM is onboard). My somewhat radical nutjob Devastator will be trying to build him a Dreadnought-scaled jump pack when that time comes, so he can still fly. The question is, how big will the thrusters need to be? Would cannibalizing parts from a Land Speeder be enough, or will I need the jets from a Stormraven? Thunderhawk engines are overkill, I don't feel the need to make him void-capable.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Pre-Heresy Lorgar? As in Great Crusade Lorgar? Yes. There's nothing tainted about it. If you don't preserve what Lorgar did before he turned to Chaos, you may as burn Adepta Sororitas at the stake, shatter the Adeptus Ministorum, and scuttle the Imperium as we know it. Everything the Imperium stands for, the God-Emperor of Man and Manifest Destiny, is written in the Lectitio Divinatus - the most holy text in the Imperium, written by Pre-Heresy Lorgar. Why would something be tainted before Lorgar turned to Chaos? That makes no sense.
    One would have to wonder just whether or not anyone knows that the Levictio Divinitatus was written by Lorgar, and just the the extent of what Lorgar was.

    The Age of the Great Crusade is mythical to the 41st millenium. The name of Horus is a blighted curse on the lips of scholars, and a bogeyman used by parents to scare children into line for the masses; other than he was the Emperor's son who betrayed his father, everything else is murky at best. And he was one of the more beloved and documented of the Primarchs.

    But Lorgar? Weak, bookish Lorgar who committed all three of the greatest sins imaginable (Treason and Heresy against the Emperor, gave his soul to Chaos and gave his flesh over to Daemons)? After 10,000 years of forgetfulness and intentional erasure by the Inquisition? Maybe. Probably not.

    With that in mind, what would people really know about their temples? It's absolutely possible that there are some founded in the age of the Crusade that are still active; I doubt that anyone knows who founded them, because can you really imagine the conversation if it was known that your temple of worship was founded the Supreme Heretic Lorgar Aurelian?
    "Welcome to the Temple of Our Beloved Father, the first brick was put in place by the guy who is now High Priest of Chaos but don't worry! We scrubbed the place out and lit some new candles, we're totally legit!"

    Even more rare - but potentially less controversial and certainly more valuable - would be coming across one of the little ad-hoc shrines built in the bowels of Astartes starships during the Great Crusade, such as the one visited by Nathaniel Garro when he first discovered that the Emperor was deified. They're going to be made of scrap piled together and with an effigy of the Emperor balanced on top, but (if you can prove it's provenance beyond doubt) it's going to be a shrine founded under the worship of the original Levictio, while Lorgar was still loyal and his words were genuine praise of his father.
    It'd be a small, humble and very well hidden little chapel somewhere where the Astartes don't go... but there might be a few still around on the oldest of starships, and possibly also in Space Hulks, and they're going to be valuable beyond measure to the Imperial faithful.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    So in my long-running Deathwatch game, the Assault Marine is finally about to run out of Fate Points, and plans on getting himself interred in a Dreadnought chassis (everyone+DM is onboard). My somewhat radical nutjob Devastator will be trying to build him a Dreadnought-scaled jump pack when that time comes, so he can still fly. The question is, how big will the thrusters need to be? Would cannibalizing parts from a Land Speeder be enough, or will I need the jets from a Stormraven? Thunderhawk engines are overkill, I don't feel the need to make him void-capable.
    Physics and thermodynamics aren't really the sort of stuff that 40k bothers itself with most of the time, so as long as your DM is onboard then the details probably won't matter.

    A Land Speeder engine alone probably wouldn't be enough. Jump packs allow Astartes to descend from low orbit safely, and can fly in the traditional sense, whereas speeders don't "fly" as such, they just climb a few metres up to avoid traffic and obstructions, so lifting a Dreadnought chassis above head height would be unlikely, I feel. If you want to actually fly like a normal Jump Pack, it would need to be a little more powerful, although as you said a Thunderhawk engine would be overkill.

    A Storm Raven jet, or maybe a couple of Speeder engines (one for each shoulder, like the 30k-style turbine-shaped Jump Packs), sounds plausible to me, for what that's worth.
    Last edited by Wraith; 2018-06-16 at 06:16 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    It'd probably help to strap a bunch of anti-grav plates to it to make it easier for the jump pack to lift it too. Cannibalise a speeder and a stormfalcon/stormraven.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    But Lorgar? Weak, bookish Lorgar who committed all three of the greatest sins imaginable (Treason and Heresy against the Emperor, gave his soul to Chaos and gave his flesh over to Daemons)? After 10,000 years of forgetfulness and intentional erasure by the Inquisition? Maybe. Probably not.
    The Mark of Calth is still ticking.

    They're going to be made of scrap piled together and with an effigy of the Emperor balanced on top, but (if you can prove it's provenance beyond doubt) it's going to be a shrine founded under the worship of the original Levictio, while Lorgar was still loyal and his words were genuine praise of his father.
    I'm going to use that. Shrine of the Orator, True Shrine to the Emperor. It's most holy Relic is a copy of the original Lectitio Divinatus, with 'By Lorgar Aurelian, the Urizen' right there on the title page. One of the copies of the holy book, before the author's name was removed (by Keeler?). "You don't understand. Before he Fell, Lorgar was the most devout follower of the Emperor. Believing that any dispute could be solved with words, and love for the Emperor. Lorgar's love for the Emperor was so strong, he could subjugate an entire planet without ever firing a shot."

    I'll give the Ultramarine roleplay XP if he burns the thing on the spot.
    The Mark of Calth is still active. Lorgar must die and his works be purged. Especially now that Guilliman walks.
    Last edited by Cheesegear; 2018-06-16 at 08:33 PM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Thats a good point. What does Guilliman think about the Lectitio and the entire cult? Hes the one who purged Churches from Lorgar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Shrine of the Orator, True Shrine to the Emperor. It's most holy Relic is a copy of the original Lectitio Divinatus, with 'By Lorgar Aurelian, the Urizen' right there on the title page. One of the copies of the holy book, before the author's name was removed (by Keeler?).
    The original copies of the Lectitio were hand-written by Lorgar, given individually customised covers and presented as gifts to his brothers, I believe. I don't remember if they're actually signed by Lorgar, but rather dedicated individually to the recipient.

    One wonders how else they differ, if at all. Could be interesting to see how people feel about their nigh-identical copy that has beloved Sanguinius' name on it, compared to an asocial jerk like Ferrus Mannus.

    Specifically, if the Ultramarine found a book dedicated to the praise of the Emperor with Guilliman's name on it. That's possibly be a very difficult choice to make....

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Thats a good point. What does Guilliman think about the Lectitio and the entire cult? Hes the one who purged Churches from Lorgar.
    One of the major revelations in Betrayer was that even after Monarchia, their arguments and Lorgar's wayward theories, Guilliman never actually cared what Lorgar was doing so long as he was obeying orders. Because that's how Guilliman thought; he wasn't purging the churches (Horus was all about that, mind) but rather he was just doing what the Emperor told him to do, which was to subdue Lorgar and get his ass back on the Great Crusade without delay.

    It wasn't until Lorgar completely missed that fact, declared "I hate you, dad!", burned a bunch of the 500 Worlds and had Guilliman explain it directly to his face, that Guilliman hated Lorgar.

    After his resurrection, Guilliman was notably more jaded about the whole thing, but he only declared himself Emperor's Regent and Lord Commander of the Imperium and not the Ecclesiarch. For the time being at least, he seems to consider the Imperial Cult as something to worry about later, if at all.
    Last edited by Wraith; 2018-06-17 at 05:43 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Specifically, if the Ultramarine found a book dedicated to the praise of the Emperor with Guilliman's name on it. That's possibly be a very difficult choice to make...
    I kind of think ancestral hatred (i.e; The Mark of Calth) would kick in.

    Lorgar gifts Guilliman a book, saying how great the Emperor is - in a deificated sense.
    Guilliman not only wrote a book on how his Dad sucks intellectually, but also rejected Lorgar's entire metaphysical premise, too.
    Then Lorgar burned down all Guilliman's stuff.

    I don't know how a copy of the Divinatus would have survived three seconds in Guilliman's presence. So I don't think the idea that he may have lost or misplaced his copy would bother him at all.

    I think a modern Ultramarines' Chapter might like to have it, for posterity. But it's not particularly valuable, and I have a feeling that modern Guilliman would despise the thing.
    But I also wouldn't fault an Ultramarine player for destroying anything without hesitation with Lorgar's mark on it.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    The other thing to remember is that RG spent the last few thousand years in stasis - the fact that he woke up to the Imperium being a bunch of Emperor worshippers instead of the fairly secular society they were before he had a nap means that he's not seeing the Imperium through the same eyes we are. When he went under, it would have still been with the background of "Gods aren't real" as state policy and seeing it be the opposite is not something he expected or is comfotable with.

    Plus, as already mentioned, given the way the betrayal went down, and doubly so for RG for whom the pain is both something he experienced on a direct personal level in more ways than one (brother vs brother, the attack on his worlds, the death of his sons, turning against his liege and their father) as well as being much fresher to him since he's only been awake for ~350 years and the betrayal was a very, very long time ago to the other guys who've lived through the last 10k years. Even if we accept that time moves strangely in the warp, it's unlikely that anyone has fresher memories of being stabbed in the back than Bobby G.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    I kind of think ancestral hatred (i.e; The Mark of Calth) would kick in.
    I feel that it might become one of those "Titus versus Leandros" arguments that Ultramarines are occasionally subjected to.

    The younger, glory-hungry members would absolutely take one look at it and burn it on the spot, if only to be able to brag that it was them who had done it or that their Chapter had successfully removed some of Lorgar's taint from the galaxy. I don't blame them for that, it's perfectly sound reasoning.

    Nonetheless; older and wiser Ultramarines might be prepared to take a more pragmatic approach because while there's glory in burning heretic books, there's more glory to earn by preserving their Primarch's artifacts and using it to know their enemy's mindset to better predict them and thus win greater battles ahead. After all, as much as they despised Word Bearers on Calth, they still took them prisoner for questioning rather than executing them outright, and this might fall uner the same category.

    Either would be acceptable, so long as it was roleplayed and not just picked up for the sake of "hey, sweet loot!"
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Either would be acceptable, so long as it was roleplayed and not just picked up for the sake of "hey, sweet loot!"
    Well, yeah.

    I guess the way I'd run it is; Recover Guilliman's Lectitio, gain Renown 'cause you're the cool guy who did it and everyone knows.
    Burn it and nobody really knows what you found or why you did it. It's not like you spent hours and hours with your helmet-cam going through pages so your superiors could read it after-the-fact. But you still did an action that was probably important. So, you get XP instead of Renown.

    Why did you do the thing you did? Gain Corruption.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    I miss TTS. It seems to me Alpha Bravusa hasnt posted anything in a while.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Librarian, can you handle the two Zoanthropes on your own?
    No.
    Salamander, do you have some Krak Grenades?
    Pretty sure I'm using my Flamer to kill the Horde.
    Apothecary, what's the liklihood that the Hive Tyrant has Enhanced Senses (Sight)?
    About 100 per cent.
    Uhh...Guys. I think the Hive Tyrant has spotted me. Aaand...Yep. I'm being shot at by Venom Cannons.
    If there's Synapse, it means everything is now targeting you.
    Is that really how it works?
    Yes.
    Okay, Devastator, you just stay out of sight.
    But then I can't kill the Hive Tyrant in one round!
    Everything that can see you, is going to make a beeline for you, because you are the only threat to the Hive Tyrant. YOU'RE GOING TO DIE if you stay in Line of Sight.
    Guys, the Zoanthropes are ignoring me. Is that bad?
    Out of curiosity, if a single heavy bolter scares an Hive Tyrant so much that he'll focus his whole army in taking it down (and fail since the players are expected to win at the end of the day), then how come a force like the ultramsurfs that pack hundreds of top-quality heavy bolters ever got their asses kicked by the nids? While fighting in their own homeworld, aka plenty of their own cannon fodder.

    Because by RPG stats, the ultrasmurfs dozens of devastator squads could take their time focus firing every synapse bug in the planet while taking cover behind forts/PD/tacticals/whatnot. And then predators also have heavy bolters. Tacticals have heavy bolters. Scouts have heavy bolters. Fighter craft has heavy bolters. Dreads can pack heavy bolters too.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Out of curiosity, if a single heavy bolter scares an Hive Tyrant so much that he'll focus his whole army in taking it down (and fail since the players are expected to win at the end of the day), then how come a force like the ultramsurfs that pack hundreds of top-quality heavy bolters ever got their asses kicked by the nids? While fighting in their own homeworld, aka plenty of their own cannon fodder.

    Because by RPG stats, the ultrasmurfs dozens of devastator squads could take their time focus firing every synapse bug in the planet while taking cover behind forts/PD/tacticals/whatnot. And then predators also have heavy bolters. Tacticals have heavy bolters. Scouts have heavy bolters. Fighter craft has heavy bolters. Dreads can pack heavy bolters too.
    Because fluff wise the Tyranid swarm is so massive that the heavy bolters are pretty much out of ammo before the Hive Tyrant is even in range. I mean without the use of WMDs or the like, Tyranids will kill and consume every living thing on a planet the size of Earth in 80 days. And drink all of the oceans and suck in the atmosphere.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Out of curiosity, if a single heavy bolter scares an Hive Tyrant so much that he'll focus his whole army in taking it down (and fail since the players are expected to win at the end of the day), then how come a force like the ultramsurfs that pack hundreds of top-quality heavy bolters ever got their asses kicked by the nids? While fighting in their own homeworld, aka plenty of their own cannon fodder.

    Because by RPG stats, the ultrasmurfs dozens of devastator squads could take their time focus firing every synapse bug in the planet while taking cover behind forts/PD/tacticals/whatnot. And then predators also have heavy bolters. Tacticals have heavy bolters. Scouts have heavy bolters. Fighter craft has heavy bolters. Dreads can pack heavy bolters too.
    Cause Fluff requires Conflict. It's not grimdark if we end up winning too much! Mechanically I figure that the tyrannids just keep throwing down more and more troops till the smurfs run out of ammo/people.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Out of curiosity, if a single heavy bolter scares an Hive Tyrant so much that he'll focus his whole army in taking it down (and fail since the players are expected to win at the end of the day)
    His 'whole army' in this case being a two Zoanthropes and a horde of Hormagaunts, vs. 5 Space Marines?
    Yes. I think the Tyrant's priority would be the Heavy Bolter.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    how come a force like the ultramsurfs that pack hundreds of top-quality heavy bolters ever got their asses kicked by the nids?.
    Minor spoiler: The Ultramarines won. It was a pretty big thing, you might have heard of it?

    The Hive Fleet ate hundreds of worlds with lesser armaments than Macragge, and those "hundreds of top-quality heavy boltors" [Citation Needed] were in use by the force that finally stopped them. I'm not seeing how any of that negates the argument that Heavy Boltors are good against 'Nids.
    Last edited by Wraith; 2018-06-19 at 03:21 AM.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Minor spoiler: The Ultramarines won. It was a pretty big thing, you might have heard of it?
    Battlefleet Tempestus won the battle. Ultramarines were just mop-up duty ;-)

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Battlefleet Tempestus
    That's a VERY good point! Void battles feature notoriously few Heavy Bolters, so I must have been wrong all along and clearly they suck!
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