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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    That's a VERY good point! Void battles feature notoriously few Heavy Bolters, so I must have been wrong all along and clearly they suck!
    Everyone knows the real battle of the Imperium are fought in the Void.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    Because by RPG stats, the ultrasmurfs dozens of devastator squads could take their time focus firing every synapse bug in the planet while taking cover behind forts/PD/tacticals/whatnot.
    The Battle of Macragge was the first ground battle with the 'Nids that the Imperium survived to report on. They didn't know what a synapse creature was yet, or how important "shoot the big ones" was. If you're encountering them for the first time, telling the difference in target priority between Hive Tyrants and Carnefexes is very hard, and it's even worse with Warriors that can happilly inter-mingle among the swarm without standing out too much.

    Make no mistake, the Battle of Macragge was a disaster. The Ultra's entire first company was wiped out, the northern polar fortress was gutted, and rogue nids continued to lurk in the corners of the world for centuries. It was only after the heart of the Hive Fleet was destroyed in space (by battleship warp-core implosion) that reinforcements were able to deploy and put the swarm on the defensive.

    The lessons the Imperium learned there (win in space or don't win at all, shoot the synapse, conserve ammo) were hard won indeed.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Everyone knows the real battle of the Imperium are fought in the Void.

    The Emprah should have designed Genetically Enhanced Navymen
    You're saying he should've created some kind of dedicated force to work with the navy. Some kind of marines, perhaps? Marines that fight in space?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidhawk View Post
    The lessons the Imperium learned there (win in space or don't win at all, shoot the synapse, conserve ammo) were hard won indeed.
    The other thing, is that Guilliman never faced Tyranids, so his Codex, and tactics for dealing with them, is woefully inept.

    10 Squads - The 9th Company features 10 Devastator Squads.
    8 Squads - Companies 2-5 have 2 Devastator Squads, each.

    A Space Marine entire Chapter has less than two dozen Devasator Squads. The 'dozens' - plural - of Devastator Squads, that deuterio think exist, don't.

    So far, a Chapter has 72 Marines carrying Heavy weapons.

    24 - 6x4 Tactical Squads have 1 Heavy weapon each.
    20 - 2x10 Tactical Squads have 1 Heavy weapon each from Companies 6 and 7.
    <20 - Let's be generous and say that 1st Company has 2 Heavy Weapons per squad.

    So, in an entire Chapter, there are less than 130 men ready to pick up a portable Heavy weapon at a moment's notice. They are definitely not all Heavy Bolters. A Codex-compliant Chapter just doesn't work like that, and Guilliman himself asks why no-one has amended the Codex in 10K years (authors ****-flinging at Ward is always funny) - then he pulls out Hellblasters and Inceptors.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowy View Post
    You're saying he should've created some kind of dedicated force to work with the navy. Some kind of marines, perhaps? Marines that fight in space?
    I wanted to make that joke so badly <3

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    The other thing, is that Guilliman never faced Tyranids, so his Codex, and tactics for dealing with them, is woefully inept.

    10 Squads - The 9th Company features 10 Devastator Squads.
    8 Squads - Companies 2-5 have 2 Devastator Squads, each.

    A Space Marine entire Chapter has less than two dozen Devasator Squads. The 'dozens' - plural - of Devastator Squads, that deuterio think exist, don't.

    So far, a Chapter has 72 Marines carrying Heavy weapons.

    24 - 6x4 Tactical Squads have 1 Heavy weapon each.
    20 - 2x10 Tactical Squads have 1 Heavy weapon each from Companies 6 and 7.
    <20 - Let's be generous and say that 1st Company has 2 Heavy Weapons per squad.

    So, in an entire Chapter, there are less than 130 men ready to pick up a portable Heavy weapon at a moment's notice. They are definitely not all Heavy Bolters. A Codex-compliant Chapter just doesn't work like that, and Guilliman himself asks why no-one has amended the Codex in 10K years (authors ****-flinging at Ward is always funny) - then he pulls out Hellblasters and Inceptors.
    Plus.. you know, supplies.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowy View Post
    You're saying he should've created some kind of dedicated force to work with the navy. Some kind of marines, perhaps? Marines that fight in space?
    Well played
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    So, in an entire Chapter, there are less than 130 men ready to pick up a portable Heavy weapon at a moment's notice.
    I linked to the Lexicanum's article on the Ultramarines' Chapter organisation chart in a previous post; they have at full strength up to 44 Tactical Squads and 18 Devastator squads... Which isn't quite true, because they're listed collectively as Tactical/Intercessor and Devastator/Aggressor/Hellblaster Squads respectively, and doesn't define how many of each.

    Still, let's be REALLY generous and say that every one who can carry a Heavy Bolter, is carrying one. One for each Tactical Squad and 4 for each Devastator Squad is 116 Heavy Bolters, plus maybe another dozen depending on how big their Scout Company is and a handful more for Attack Bikes and (again very generously) 27 for all of their Dreadnoughts.

    160-165 Heavy Bolters, but maybe another per squad if everyone in the Chapter rides in Razorbacks. Call it an even 200, and that is assuming that no one in the entire Chapter is hitting above S5 and, for some ungodly reason, had decided to rip the arm off of their Venerable Dreadnought, Garus.
    Realistically, even 130 is a very, very generous amount of Heavy Bolters to have 'on hand' at any given moment. Even the Salamanders - biased as they are - probably wouldn't have that many flame/melta weapons, and the Ultramarines are known for being "all rounders" rather than lop-sided tactically.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    So, in an entire Chapter, there are less than 130 men ready to pick up a portable Heavy weapon at a moment's notice.
    It's not quite that bad, because Space Marine training requires them to first go through training as Assault Marines, then Devastators, before becoming all-round Tactical Marines. So all the chapter's TacMarines are also prepared to snatch up and use a heavy weapon; the limiter is the number of heavy weapons available for them to use, rather than the people trained in their usage. It's very much a Russian Army situation.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    It's not quite that bad, because Space Marine training requires them to first go through training as Assault Marines, then Devastators, before becoming all-round Tactical Marines. So all the chapter's TacMarines are also prepared to snatch up and use a heavy weapon; the limiter is the number of heavy weapons available for them to use, rather than the people trained in their usage. It's very much a Russian Army situation.
    Wait. So the order of experience is:

    Initiate/Scout --> Assault --> Devastator --> Tactical --> Terminator?

    Kind of explains why Thaddeus was the youngster in DoW2

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Wait. So the order of experience is:

    Initiate/Scout --> Assault --> Devastator --> Tactical --> Terminator?

    Kind of explains why Thaddeus was the youngster in DoW2
    Actually, I got it backwards - it's Initiate/Scout ---> Devastator ---> Assault ---> Tactical ----> Terminator.

    Now, each of those phases lasts for years to decades on average, but that's the order of training they're supposed to go through. On the other hand, it means literally every non-Scout Marine in a Codex chapter will have training+experience in the usage of heavy weapons.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    On the other hand, it means literally every non-Scout Marine in a Codex chapter will have training+experience in the usage of heavy weapons.
    But scouts can use H. Bolters, so I guess every marine then?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    You're saying he should've created some kind of dedicated force to work with the navy. Some kind of marines, perhaps? Marines that fight in space?
    To bad he didnt. Or at least. Did not manage to do so effectively.
    I guess he eventually learned space fights are a job for space ships.

    But scouts can use H. Bolters, so I guess every marine then?
    Its not like its rocket science.
    Even a guardsman can be taught to use one.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    On the other hand, it means literally every non-Scout Marine in a Codex chapter will have training+experience in the usage of heavy weapons.
    But they wont. Huge sections of the Ultramarines Chapter (previous to Guilliman walking) felt that to disobey the Codex was to commit Heresy.
    Then Wraith brought up supplies. In a Codex-compliant Chapter, I agree that it would be extremely unlikely that they'd have over 100 Heavy Bolters in their Armoury. They just don't need that many. So why would they have that many?
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    But they wont. Huge sections of the Ultramarines Chapter (previous to Guilliman walking) felt that to disobey the Codex was to commit Heresy.
    Then Wraith brought up supplies. In a Codex-compliant Chapter, I agree that it would be extremely unlikely that they'd have over 100 Heavy Bolters in their Armoury. They just don't need that many. So why would they have that many?
    That was why I called it a Russian Army situation. The limiter isn't the number of people capable of using the weapons, it's the number of actual weapons in their inventory. When a HB-equipped Marine dies, the nearest TacMarine can pick the gun up and keep shooting, at least until everyone runs out of ammo.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Depends on the model of HB, if it's drum fed then yeah they can pick it up, if it's belt fed then it's going to take a while to get it off the dead guy and properly attached to the living one. Sure you can use it without attaching the backpack ammo box to yourself, but then you can't retreat with it.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    Depends on the model of HB [...] if it's belt fed then it's going to take a while
    I was gonna say that.
    I'm still not totally sure how Devastator backpacks work. Does the ammo just 'clip on' to any old Power Armour? Or is the Power Supply/Life Support unit on Devastators' armour specially modified? I think Deathwatch might go into it, but I don't remember and I'm away from my books.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim Portent View Post
    Depends on the model of HB, if it's drum fed then yeah they can pick it up, if it's belt fed then it's going to take a while to get it off the dead guy and properly attached to the living one. Sure you can use it without attaching the backpack ammo box to yourself, but then you can't retreat with it.
    Eh, according to Deathwatch a Space Marine has an absolutely absurd carrying capacity. He can just heft the corpse of the dead guy in one hand and the Heavy Bolter in the other and carry them around that way.

    (in the game itself, the Ammo Backpack is an optional add-on. You can have regular drum magazines, or the continual belt-fed from a backpack supply. Doesn't interfere with the power supply in any way.)
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2018-06-19 at 11:20 AM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    I guess he eventually learned space fights are a job for space ships.
    Against a regular enemy, either they have an army somewhere you want and you bring your army to them, or vis-versa. In both cases, they have a limited number of troops: whoever's at the place, either originally or brought in ships. Once that force is deployed on the planet, destroying the ships they came in will help you reclaim the planet (orbit is the highest ground there is) and cut supply lines, but isn't the end of the fight. And that held true for 10,000 years.

    Then the Nids arrived. And the Necrons woke up. Races to whom little things such as "limited numbers of troops" and "supply lines" are completely foreign. While a Hive Ship remains in orbit, it can birth an near endless supply of bioforms directly down onto the heads of whoever it likes. You killed one army? Cool, have three more. They simply don't stop coming until the Hive has eaten most of itself, or decides the planet isn't worth it. And if you drag the fight on long enough, they'll just set up breeding-pools and grow more directly on the planet's surface. Beat them in space, or it doesn't matter.

    If anything, the Necrons are even worse than that. A single Monolith or Nightscythe can teleport in an entire legion of warriors directly from a tombworld, and keep them refreshed with reinforcements. A single scarab instructed to replicate can become a swarm of millions. The Necrons have no less than four different types of documented FTL travel/teleportation, almost all of which can function over interstellar distances and are nearly impossible to interfere with. Shoot them with orbital lasers, and they'll just come back again. Hell, a C'Tan shard might just fly into space and punch your ship to death. Beat them on the ground, or it doesn't matter.

    Basically, the standard MO of 1) achieve orbital supremacy long enough to deploy troops, 2) seize/destroy important targets, 3) mop up, worked for literally millennia against everyone who wasn't Eldar. Until suddenly it didn't.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    So, in an entire Chapter, there are less than 130 men ready to pick up a portable Heavy weapon at a moment's notice. They are definitely not all Heavy Bolters. A Codex-compliant Chapter just doesn't work like that, and Guilliman himself asks why no-one has amended the Codex in 10K years (authors ****-flinging at Ward is always funny) - then he pulls out Hellblasters and Inceptors.


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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Against a regular enemy, either they have an army somewhere you want and you bring your army to them, or vis-versa. In both cases, they have a limited number of troops: whoever's at the place, either originally or brought in ships. Once that force is deployed on the planet, destroying the ships they came in will help you reclaim the planet (orbit is the highest ground there is) and cut supply lines, but isn't the end of the fight. And that held true for 10,000 years
    Well yeah.. if you want someone else's stuff then you kinda need to put boots on the ground if said stuff are on the ground.
    If on the other hand you just want to keep your own thing, then a single Tau can beat a squad of custodes if both of them are seated in their own spaceship. Enough space superiority and said troops will die in transit.

    Then the Nids arrived. And the Necrons woke up. Races to whom little things such as "limited numbers of troops" and "supply lines" are completely foreign. While a Hive Ship remains in orbit, it can birth an near endless supply of bioforms directly down onto the heads of whoever it likes. You killed one army? Cool, have three more. They simply don't stop coming until the Hive has eaten most of itself, or decides the planet isn't worth it. And if you drag the fight on long enough, they'll just set up breeding-pools and grow more directly on the planet's surface. Beat them in space, or it doesn't matter.
    Its actually especially relevant for Nids. Battling them in space negates a massive amount of their advantage. Suddenly its no longer natural, bio-enginered killed versul upright ape. Its something designed to murder other things in space against something partly designed to travel long distances in space. In a enviroment where its especially hard, if not impossible to recycle biomass.

    If anything, the Necrons are even worse than that. A single Monolith or Nightscythe can teleport in an entire legion of warriors directly from a tombworld, and keep them refreshed with reinforcements. A single scarab instructed to replicate can become a swarm of millions. The Necrons have no less than four different types of documented FTL travel/teleportation, almost all of which can function over interstellar distances and are nearly impossible to interfere with. Shoot them with orbital lasers, and they'll just come back again. Hell, a C'Tan shard might just fly into space and punch your ship to death. Beat them on the ground, or it doesn't matter.
    If anything i would say Necrons are the only real exception to this. Mainly because its likely impossible to keep them out of your home unless your either Eldar or living in the eye of chaos.
    thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post

    So, in an entire Chapter, there are less than 130 men ready to pick up a portable Heavy weapon at a moment's notice. They are definitely not all Heavy Bolters. A Codex-compliant Chapter just doesn't work like that, and Guilliman himself asks why no-one has amended the Codex in 10K years (authors ****-flinging at Ward is always funny) - then he pulls out Hellblasters and Inceptors.
    To be fair, the other Heavy Weapons are likely better at killing Hive Tyrants then Heavy Bolters are.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackhawk748 View Post
    Guiliman while talking about the Codex at a costume ball, colorized
    Nope. The Codex is rules. Guilliman doesn't understand why nobody's changed them as enemies adopted new tactics and the rules stopped working.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    To be fair, the other Heavy Weapons are likely better at killing Hive Tyrants then Heavy Bolters are.
    Unfortunately, I've fallen into the trap of trying to prove deuterio wrong.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    Its actually especially relevant for Nids. Battling them in space negates a massive amount of their advantage. Suddenly its no longer natural, bio-enginered killed versul upright ape. Its something designed to murder other things in space against something partly designed to travel long distances in space. In a enviroment where its especially hard, if not impossible to recycle biomass.
    Except the part where Nids just fire tons of living torpedos at your ship and turn the space battle into a ground battle. Good luck fending them off with just navy personnel.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    I was watching the Gladius cinematic opening the yesterday and regarding the SM opening,.....why on earth exactly are the Smurfs on this planet? To rebuild their chapter??? Huh?

    I also don't see why they would call Necrons "dread", something being dreaded kind of jives with the whole "no fear" schtick.....
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    I also don't see why they would call Necrons "dread", something being dreaded kind of jives with the whole "no fear" schtick...
    What's the feeling you get when you know something bad is going to happen?

    'Dread' is pretty apt, and it doesn't have to have anything to do with fear.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    'Dread' is pretty apt, and it doesn't have to have anything to do with fear.
    Well, dictionary.com definitions for it as an adjective both involve fear significantly as does Oxford Dictionaries, so I'm gonna go with it does have a lot to do with fear.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Except the part where Nids just fire tons of living torpedos at your ship and turn the space battle into a ground battle. Good luck fending them off with just navy personnel.
    Nahh.. dont need luck there.. just need to avoid getting hit by torpedo's to start with.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    so I'm gonna go with it does have a lot to do with fear.
    I'm going to go with them using the word 'Dread', as a synonym for 'Dire'. Which is also what it is - apprehension.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    I'm going to go with them using the word 'Dread', as a synonym for 'Dire'. Which is also what it is - apprehension.
    So you think they used the wrong word?

    Okay, still sounds like bad writing then.
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