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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Gork is almost definitely Khaine. Stated by a Necron. Xenology (2006).
    That makes it a rather unreliable and straight up mad source.

    The point remains that there isnt any actual solid evidence for Khaine being either Gork nor Khorne.
    There is straight up evidence for Khaine -not- being khorne.
    One of them is banished to the material realm. The other is busy being the god of mindless slaughter.

    D: Khaine is Khorne
    C: Prove it.
    D: (link). Also, prove Gork is Khorne
    C: That link is for a different canon.
    D: Yeah, well, prove Gork is Khorne.
    C: I never said that.
    D: Just because it's a different canon, doesn't mean it's not true!
    There isnt any evidence in that link. Its a fanmade Wiki. Its about as full of theories and wild ideas as this place is.
    Last edited by lord_khaine; 2018-06-29 at 10:29 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Bah.

    Everything is canon, not everything is true.

  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Yeah, I mean, correct me if i'm wrong but GW's answer to an awful lot of the questions about which gods are which, how the Old Ones and Eldar Gods and Chaos gods work is deliberate vagueness ("Weee'll never tell!" *wink*) and any attempt to ascribe a definitive Canon answer to this sort of thing - about any of it, positive or negative - is doomed to failure.

    I'm definitely not a fan of considering things non-canon just because of age alone, but both Xenology and the third ed Necron Codex are now ten-fifteen years of tweaking and fiddling and retcon-ing out of date. Not to get involved in this specific debate (god no), but with GW's attitude to canonicity seemingly mostly "what supports what's cool at the time", I'd want to see much more recent allusions to the ideas before being persuaded myself.
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  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    Stated by a Necron. Xenology (2006).
    Citing Xenology is like citing Inquisition War or Kill Team. Every time you do it, the Emperor cries. Don't cite Xenology, citizen. The Emperor's tears bring death to billions.


    Seriously, Xenology was dubiously canon when it was released. Everything in the book needs to be taken with a heaping helping of salt. By this point they've completely changed, among other things, the nature of C'tan, the motivations of the Necrons and, oh yeah, Ynnead showed up too, proving that Eldar Gods =/= Old Ones. Which isn't to say that Khaine and Isha can't be the warp-reflections of Eldar memories of the Old Ones, or that Khaine isn't Gork. Or, for that matter, that the Deceiver isn't Cegorach. But none of those things are facts, and stating them as if they were because of Xenology isn't a good stance to take.
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  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by DaedalusMkV View Post
    oh yeah, Ynnead showed up too, proving that Eldar Gods =/= Old Ones.
    Sometimes. Maybe. Ynnead is an Eldar God in much the same way that Slaanesh is an Eldar God, to be fair.

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Why couldnt they be both? ;)
    That's my theory. But in an odd way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    The Old Ones are the Eldar Gods and the C'Tan. There are strong hints that the C'Tan and Eldar Gods were the same race.
    Eldar and Orks were created by the same beings. Not even a 'hint' or shifty reading. It is actual canon. Both races developed to fight the Necrontyr.
    Gork is Khaine, Mork is Cegorach.

    They are not Chaos Gods, and the presence of Chaos is anathema to them.

    Ynnead appears to be a whole new breed of Eldar God, unrelated to the Old Ones, with a little too much in common to a Chaos God. But, everyone knows that the Aeldari were secretly Chaos worshipping scum and always have been.
    Here's my thoughts on the matter:

    The Old Ones created the Eldar first, and the Eldar weren't created to fight the Necrontyr, they were created before the war began. They ended up fighting the Necrontyr but weren't designed to do so. That's why Eldar aren't really 'designed' to fight and thrive off war like Orks do. Orks were a weapon to help fight the Necrontyr.

    But then the Old Ones died. But they were far enough removed from the Eldar and Orks that they didn't know that. And their collective faith in their gods lead to the birth of warp entites that became the new pantheon of gods with the same name as the Old Ones. These gods were constantly absorbing the power from their respective races, kinda like Ynnead is going to do/is doing with the Eldar.

    I also think the Emperor is undergoing the same process. That's why during the Great Crusade, faith did basically nothing until after his cult formed. But now Sisters of Battle and other faithful can literally protect themselves through prayer, and miracles do occur. The Emperor is becoming a warp based god, just like the other ones. Now his physical form just needs to die.
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  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Are there not still references to the Old Ones being reptilian? I definitely recall it being heavily implied that they were biologically related to the Slann in previous editions.

    The understanding I've always had is that the Old Ones were a flesh-and-blood race of super-advanced aliens from the material universe, the C'Tan were a plasma-and-magnetic-fields race of the same, and the gods of the races the Old Ones created are the Warp echoes of how they mythologised the Old One/C'Tan war (plus a whole bunch of later developments too). Certainly the Orks don't make any equivalence between Gork/Mork and the Brainboyz.

    My personal headcanon is also that "Old Ones" is a very literal description and the Old Ones were just very mature Slann. The 1st Generation Slann of WFB could destroy armies of daemons and realign continents with their minds, and the Old Ones were already mature space captains/explorers when those Slann were tadpoles. Add that to the description of them as being reptilian/cold-blooded and the Old Ones as minus 10th generation Slann seems pretty plausible.
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  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    The Old Ones are the Eldar Gods and the C'Tan. There are strong hints that the C'Tan and Eldar Gods were the same race.
    Eldar and Orks were created by the same beings. Not even a 'hint' or shifty reading. It is actual canon. Both races developed to fight the Necrontyr.
    Gork is Khaine, Mork is Cegorach.

    They are not Chaos Gods, and the presence of Chaos is anathema to them.

    Ynnead appears to be a whole new breed of Eldar God, unrelated to the Old Ones, with a little too much in common to a Chaos God. But, everyone knows that the Aeldari were secretly Chaos worshipping scum and always have been.
    Gotta disagree with you very strongly here. The belief that the Old Ones, C'Tan, and the Eldar/Ork gods are all the same beings seems to be unique to you Cheesegear. The Eldar/Orks gods are based on echoes of the deeds of said beings, but they are emphatically not the same creatures.

    Here's my two(thousand) cents:
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    The Eldar and Orks were created by the Old Ones, who though astoundingly proficient in Immaterium-based technology, were not entirely from that realm like the Chaos Gods. They possibly used the same circular-reincarnation trick that the High Eldar and Ancient Human Shamans practised. There's also an outside possibility they were like the Enslavers, which have a life-cycle that partly takes place in the warp and partly in realspace (kind of like turtles laying eggs on beaches, if the sea was the warp and the beach was reality, and the eggs were incubated inside a human soul).

    Before the War in Heaven, the Immaterium was a pretty peaceful place. It is the realm of the soul and the collective unconscious, so when the Old Ones were the only sentient life in the galaxy it was mostly just a white void (contrasting with Realspace's black void), a blank canvas awaiting a shape. Then the Old Ones started spreading life across the galaxy and the Immaterium became less empty, turning into a dreamland of sorts, made of bubbles of different race's ideas of reality butting against each other.

    Then the Necrontyr came along and ruined it all. They and the C'Tan (who explicitly have nothing to do with the Immaterium, and quite likely predate the Old Ones) set about systematically slaughtering the Old One's creations. This had several terrible effects on the Immaterium. Firstly, it flooded it with souls who died in pain and anguish. Secondly, as the Old Ones mobilised the races of the Galaxy to fight back it gets flooded with emotions of anger and hate, a desperate need to survive and a desire for control. Thirdly, as the Nightbringer personally consumes entire races the image of a Dread Reaper gets burned into it, traumatising pretty much every race forever.

    The Old Ones see what's happening in the now rather turbulent Warp, and decide the best thing to do is weaponise it. This proves to be a terrible idea long-term, but they were in a fight for the survival of organic life, so they probably thought they'd fix any repercussions down the line. So, a number of Old Ones start breeding up a selection of races across the galaxy with very strong connections to the Warp. One of the first successful versions are the race that will become the Eldar, and the Old Ones who created them speak to them personally to prime them for the war to come. One of the last was the K'Orks, but the war ended before the Old Ones in charge could finish them properly (they were likely intended to be foot soldiers for the Eldar to command psychically). Also, at some point someone (likely the Old Ones, but maybe the Eldar or even the Necrons) build the Blackstone Fortresses, designed to fire beams of pure warp energy into stars and kill the C'Tan who live there (incidentally making the star explode).

    So, the Galaxy is now in a constant churning war, with the most intense fighting involving highly psychic races and Old Ones clashing with Necron and C'tan. The witnessing, emotional connection to, and constant re-telling of these events begins to have an effect in the Warp: where the Eldar and Orks witness the trickery of the Deceiver and/or Old Ones, they tell of Cegorach and Mork. Where they witness carnage and victory, they tell of Khaine and Gork. And these dreams (and many others, from other races and Old Ones) clump together in the warp, forming the nascent bodies of the first Warp Gods.

    Unfortunately for pretty much everyone, the war ends in a brutal series of deathblows. Firstly, the Necrons and C'tan finally break into the webway, and hunt down and butcher almost all of the Old Ones. Then at the moment of victory, the Necrons turn on their C'Tan masters and backstab them with all the WMDs they have. With their dying breath the C'Tan curse Zoidberg the Necrons with a variety of awful things: The Flayer Virus (Llandu'gor the Flayer), the Destroyer Curse (the Nightbringer), and a form of Robot Alzheimers (probably from the Deciever, he's that kind of *******). Most of their armies and WMDs expended, and with an expanding and enraged High Eldar empire intent on their destruction, the remaining Necrons decide hiding in a hole is the better part of valour, and vamoose.

    So the Eldar and K'Ork are left with very little to do, and a galaxy mostly depopulated of sentient life. Or rather, the Eldar are left with not much to do: the Orks know exactly what they were put in the galaxy for, "Fightin' an Winnin'!". So they proceed to do just that, fighting the Eldar, everyone else, and themselves depending on who's nearest. It's during this period of upheaval and shifting powers, the Eldar and Ork Gods manifest fully. Since they came from echoes of the Old Ones and C'Tan, these new gods continue to play out the same mythic cycles of build up, destruction and betrayal. This culminates in the Eldar Pantheon re-enacting the War In Heaven, but this time with Khaine driven to attack his fellow deities. This is the main reason for much of the confusion about this period of history: the Eldar are the only ones who have any memory of that time, and in the past million of years of chinese-whispers the original events became indelibly mixed with their echoes.

    Then later on Man appears, spreads across the galaxy breeding and dying, and the warp floods with yet more awful emotions. Remember that anger, desperation, and control I mentioned back in paragraph three? Whoops, it turns out that all the New Gods were built on these clouds of emotional instability, and like the formation of a black hole the whole lot starts collapsing in on itself towards a denser state. All those War feelings all the various minor races have? Boom: they're all Khorne now, and the name of your personal war-god is just another name for him. All gods of Scheming are now Tzeentch, all gods of Despair are Nurgle. The Eldar and Ork pantheons are the only ones to resist assimilation, because they've been around the longest and had the most dedicated followers.

    Then Slaanesh exploding into being and tore the galaxy a new one. This was the finale on top of millennia of absorbing and eating all other pantheons, and finally brings the Eldar low. Slaanesh has as part of xir purview "eating all Eldar, including their gods", and quickly devourers and consumes almost all of them. There two exceptions: first Khaine, for whom Khorne had always craved to assimilate. So he fights Slaanesh over him, like two spoiled children with one GI Joe toy, and Khaine literally explodes. His essence is scattered to the wind, and ends up fleeing the warp and finding a home at the centre of each nascent Craftworld. Secondly, Nurgle had always been in love with Isha, goddess of Life. So he steals her away from Slaanesh at the last moment, and locks her in his garden.

    And there we have it. The state of play in the 41st Millenium, with evil gods being the only ones left. Oh yes, and now the Tyranids have arrived. Because when a galaxy pollutes its section of the warp into tearing holes into realspace, you can bet someone will take notice and send in the clean-up crew. This wasn't the only evolution of Materium-Immaterium interaction possible, and those who took different, more successful routes, take a dim view of some jumped-up nobodies perhaps dooming the universe to an early extinction.


    So yeah. Khaine, Khorne, and Gork are all echos of the concept of "fighting". But different echoes, formed at different times. Khorne would love to be the only one, but no god of fighting has ever gone down easy.
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  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by LCP View Post
    Are there not still references to the Old Ones being reptilian? I definitely recall it being heavily implied that they were biologically related to the Slann in previous editions.

    The understanding I've always had is that the Old Ones were a flesh-and-blood race of super-advanced aliens from the material universe, the C'Tan were a plasma-and-magnetic-fields race of the same, and the gods of the races the Old Ones created are the Warp echoes of how they mythologised the Old One/C'Tan war (plus a whole bunch of later developments too). Certainly the Orks don't make any equivalence between Gork/Mork and the Brainboyz.

    My personal headcanon is also that "Old Ones" is a very literal description and the Old Ones were just very mature Slann. The 1st Generation Slann of WFB could destroy armies of daemons and realign continents with their minds, and the Old Ones were already mature space captains/explorers when those Slann were tadpoles. Add that to the description of them as being reptilian/cold-blooded and the Old Ones as minus 10th generation Slann seems pretty plausible.
    Except the bit where it's been stated that the WHFB and 40k universes are/were 2 completely seperate things, and any similarities (such as the chaos gods, Khaine, Mork/Gork, how orks/orcs work, power armour relics in old editions, the Slann's passing resemblance to the old ones etc.) are entirely coincidental, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

    I imagine this is the case with AoS too, though someone who follows the fluff more closely than I do would have to confirm/deny.

  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    I'm gonna throw in my take right here.

    Khaine and Khorne are the same thing.

    Old ones weren't gods at all and neither were the C'tan.

    Gork and Mork are far too busy having a good time to be worried about what anyone else thinks of them.
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  11. - Top - End - #191
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    I highly doubt Mork is Cegorach. While they do both share the portfolio of Cunning, they're way too different. Cegorach's version of cunning is Tzeentchian. Morks is more "you smash da gits over Dere and I'll smash da gits over here. When we're done wit dat we join up and smash da gits in da middle,".
    Also If Gork was Khorne, he lost some of the most important parts of his portfolio. Gork doesn't want Skulls and Blood. And that's pretty much all that Khorne wants. Pretty much all they share is their love of combat (then again all Orks love fighting so....). Gork even allows Psykers.

    Also C'tan are explicitly materium entities. While they were known as star gods they weren't actual gods. Just seemed like one.
    Last edited by Xenopax; 2018-06-29 at 11:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    (Khaine's) avatars have the freaking Mark of Khorne on their head just in case of doubt.
    This hat is a carbon copy of this hat, therefore the people wearing them must be the same?

    Well, that makes perfect sense. It's definitely a rule that absolutely applies these well-known Khorne worshippers...

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidhawk
    The belief that the Old Ones, C'Tan, and the Eldar/Ork gods are all the same beings seems to be unique to you Cheesegear.
    For whatever it's worth, I agree with Cheesegear. It might not be literal, codified GW canon, but I believe that enough has been written that it is a reasonable conclusion for fans to draw upon. Which, frankly, is true of most of GW's canon when it comes to confirming 'facts'.
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  13. - Top - End - #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesegear View Post
    When a word has multiple meanings, and you need to pick which meaning it might be, using context...Yes.
    I learned to do that in what, Grade 6?
    Your 6th grade teacher didn't teach you to ignore a definition in favor of synonyms, or that synonyms trump the definition (I hope ). Sure, you need to pick the meaning within context, but also within the meaning of the word itself and appropriate gramatical structures and not some other word that, in part or whole, in a exact or near exact meaning. Rub and pinch apparently are synonyms, but I'm sure we agree the phrases "I rubbed my daughters back to help her fall asleep" and "I pinched my daughters back to help her fall asleep" are not equivalent.

    I'm surprised at the notion to look for substitutes instead of to the definition of the word itself, or that we're talking context but ignoring the gramatical context which specifies the meaning. I agree that there's more to evaluating context than just that, but it's a cornerstone of the whole thing.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Destro_Yersul View Post
    So then what's wrong with 'terrible' as one of the set of meanings for the word 'dread?'
    It's possible certainly, that's a much better position at least. I think it's an odd thing for the SM to use "dread" for terrible but then go off chest thumping about how they won't fear them, strange parallel but I can't rule out that option.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluntpencil View Post
    'Dread', in this sense is an adjective meaning 'respected', perhaps with a tinge of fear and/or awe. It is, of course, archaic, and therefore suits Adeptus Astartes, as far as linguistics go, for describing an opponent worthy of respect.
    1) sure, I already acknowledged the "awe" element of the definition, 2) Respect Xenos? Report to your nearest commissar or confessor immediately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll View Post
    Brookshw, you seem to be ignoring one key point: I can dread going to work without being afraid of it.
    No, what you're doing is one of two things, 1) misusing the word, or 2) using a literary device (exaggeration). I'll get to point 2 further when I get to Voidhawk.

    The examples I gave above are more proof that the word can mean what we're saying it can than any dictionary entry. That's how language works; people use it, other people understand it. Having some dictionary write down a meaning has no place in deciding what a word means.
    While I appreciate that language is alive in its own way and often used subjectively or incorrectly, I completely disagree that the objective standard of a standard definition has no place in understanding what a word means. I'm sure in part this has something to do with writing and reviewing contracts for a living, but absolutely under no circumstances can it be accepted practice that a word are so utterly fluid that they cannot be considered to actually be defined. And where are they going to be defined if not in the dictionaries? Same reason when courts need to do interpretation they turn to reputable dictionaires, especially those dated within the era that the word was used/written.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voidhawk View Post
    Completely incorrect. The set of possible meanings for any particular group of characters/sounds/gestures is most likely infinite, and is certainly constantly in flux. For example sarcasm and insults have such a huge influence on the evolution of language, that many words today have the exact opposite meaning to how they were used a few hundred years ago, simply because people started using them as a derogatory term. Dictionaries are Descriptive books of common uses of language, not Proscriptive guides to all possible uses.
    I can't believe someone else has read Existential Comics, nice!

    No arguement that things change overtime but that's not really relevant to establishing meaning at a specific instance. Sure, various literary devices such as sarcasm, satire, insults, exaggerations, metaphors, speaking fictiously, do carry different messages which can be opposite or at least inconsistent with the actual definitions and meanings of the words which comprise them. This does not mean that the actual meaning of the words themselves change, rather that the message itself is understood differently. It's similar to parody in which you need to hold up the underlying object that's being parodied inorder to create the contrast you're drawing and ultimately having a successful parody, that underlying object is not destroyed or subsummed in the creation of a parody and can't be if you wan't to actually be able to contrast it at all. A satire about eating babies doens't work unless "eating" and "babies" still mean what they mean. Sure, we often understand a work itself differently as a result of some literary device or similar technique(s), but the meaning of the words never really changes.


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  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brookshw View Post
    Your 6th grade teacher didn't teach you to ignore a definition in favor of synonyms, or that synonyms trump the definition (I hope ). Sure, you need to pick the meaning within context, but also within the meaning of the word itself and appropriate gramatical structures and not some other word that, in part or whole, in a exact or near exact meaning. Rub and pinch apparently are synonyms, but I'm sure we agree the phrases "I rubbed my daughters back to help her fall asleep" and "I pinched my daughters back to help her fall asleep" are not equivalent.

    I'm surprised at the notion to look for substitutes instead of to the definition of the word itself, or that we're talking context but ignoring the gramatical context which specifies the meaning. I agree that there's more to evaluating context than just that, but it's a cornerstone of the whole thing.....

    It's possible certainly, that's a much better position at least. I think it's an odd thing for the SM to use "dread" for terrible but then go off chest thumping about how they won't fear them, strange parallel but I can't rule out that option.

    1) sure, I already acknowledged the "awe" element of the definition, 2) Respect Xenos? Report to your nearest commissar or confessor immediately.

    No, what you're doing is one of two things, 1) misusing the word, or 2) using a literary device (exaggeration). I'll get to point 2 further when I get to Voidhawk.

    While I appreciate that language is alive in its own way and often used subjectively or incorrectly, I completely disagree that the objective standard of a standard definition has no place in understanding what a word means. I'm sure in part this has something to do with writing and reviewing contracts for a living, but absolutely under no circumstances can it be accepted practice that a word are so utterly fluid that they cannot be considered to actually be defined. And where are they going to be defined if not in the dictionaries? Same reason when courts need to do interpretation they turn to reputable dictionaires, especially those dated within the era that the word was used/written.



    I can't believe someone else has read Existential Comics, nice!

    No arguement that things change overtime but that's not really relevant to establishing meaning at a specific instance. Sure, various literary devices such as sarcasm, satire, insults, exaggerations, metaphors, speaking fictiously, do carry different messages which can be opposite or at least inconsistent with the actual definitions and meanings of the words which comprise them. This does not mean that the actual meaning of the words themselves change, rather that the message itself is understood differently. It's similar to parody in which you need to hold up the underlying object that's being parodied inorder to create the contrast you're drawing and ultimately having a successful parody, that underlying object is not destroyed or subsummed in the creation of a parody and can't be if you wan't to actually be able to contrast it at all. A satire about eating babies doens't work unless "eating" and "babies" still mean what they mean. Sure, we often understand a work itself differently as a result of some literary device or similar technique(s), but the meaning of the words never really changes.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenopax View Post
    Please....No more. In the name of the Emperor could we please not discuss grammar? There are much more family friendly topics like "How much heresy is too much?"
    Do Tyranid's poop? Seriously, I was wondering that the other day. Or do they exist perpetually constipated until they take a bath in a reclamation pool to keep the biomass concentrated and avoid having to recollect? I don't recall ever hearing about Nid spores, but that may just be my faulty memory.
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    Default Re: Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

    From an evolutionary perspective when trying to maximise your ability to turn biomass into new creatures, I imagine that "use all biomass consumed" is developed before "shoot monsters at things so they die and you can consume them."
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    Pooping is inefficient. I doubt actual Tyrannids poop. As Swordfish said they probably would have evolved out of pooping. Especially since they have a hive mind selectively evolving them. But I'd think that Gene stealer cultists and their offspring poop. But They're not "real" Tyrannids anyway. I think it was noted somewhere that pne of their energy weapons was basically this bug think pooping out an energy blast but I may be mistaken.
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    Rippers at least are described as having no digestive tract, they just have a stomach they fill up before they jump into a digestion pool.

    Other Tyranids may in theory have no digestive tract as well or simply one that's efficient enough that they don't excrete anything. If they did poop then they'd need to have another organism to eat the poop so they can strip all organic matter from a world and that just seems like an awkward extra step.

    That said in theory rippers and pyrovores must already be eating non-Tyranid faeces anyway, so eating the waste from other Tyranids isn't all that much more effort since they're already doing poop patrol.
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    Remember that the Tyranids you see on the battlefield never evolved in the conventional sense, but were specifically engineered for combat by the Norn Queens. They only possess exactly enough digestive system to make them as lethal as possible, leaving the actual planetary-scale digestion to later parts of the swarm. As with most 'nid things, it depends on the individual bioform.

    The smallest tyranids (eg Rippers) don't poop, since their job is to gnaw the biosphere down to the bedrock and return to reclamation pools anytime they're full. They're more ambulatory stomachs than true creatures really.

    Termagaunts and Hormagaunts have very simplistic digestive systems, designed to quickly extract enough energy from what they consume to continue attacking whatever is in their path. They don't need to extract complicated nutrients, because they're not designed to last very long. If they need particular proteins to self-repair, they can simply eat the bodies of their fallen comrades. They'd probably poop a horrid half-digested slop studded with boneshards, bark, shreds of flak-armour, and anything else that doesn't break down quickly. Or perhaps cough up pellets like an owl. As with many animals, they'll probably eat their own poop to send it through the digestive tract a second time if needed.

    Larger tyranids such as Warriors are more valuable, are expected to have a much longer lifespan, so would likely have a commensurably larger digestive system. They may well get injured in the field and need to repair heavy wounds, so being able to extract and store all kinds of nutrients would be very valuable. It's possible that smaller tyranids might act as nurse-maids to any injured warriors, bringing them fresh kills, vomiting up half-digested meals, or even allowing the warrior to consume them. Warriors likely poop something similar to most animals, as they will extract everything useful from their meal, without bothering to spend the time and energy to break down the toughest substances such as bone or steel.

    Siege-breaker Tyranids such as Carnifexes are designed to smash and consume the largest and toughest enemies. This requires a vast quantity of energy to perform constantly, so they must have very dense internal energy stores. It may even be that they would require an unsustainable volume of sugar-dense foods to meet this need (like a humming bird), and in fact they must get their energy from more esoteric means; the fact that many spit bio-plasma supports this theory. In that case, any standard digestive system would likely be a holdover from when they were being grown, or would be tuned to breaking down the hard materials (eg steel, ceramite) that the 'fex swallows. I doubt they would poop much, if at all.

    Zoanthropes are sustained solely by pyschic energies, and their digestive system (along with the rest of their bodies) is entirely vestigial.

    Flying Tyranids such as Harpies are able to quickly return to tyranid-infested areas, or even Hive Ships in low-orbit. I doubt they have much of a digestive system (as that would increase weight needlessly), instead being sustained by regularly returning to suckle at some kind of hive or roost. If they need to feed in the field they likely have much the same process as Gaunts, extracting the energy they need quickly and letting the remainder be "released to the wind".

    Infiltration organisms such as Genestealers will have quite complicated digestive tracts, since they're designed to operate alone for decades at a time. They'd likely poop like normal animals. Lictors would have the most complicated digestive systems of all, since they're designed to extract not just nutrients but information and DNA from their victims. And as their mission is incredibly stealthy, they likely poop hardly at all and would take great pains to hide any necessary emissions.

    Bio-titans are at a completely different scale. I have no idea what it would take to sustain such a creature, but it probably doesn't involve anything like eating and pooping.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voidhawk View Post
    Carnifexes are designed ... (like a humming bird)
    Now I really want a picture of Carnifexes buzzing around a humming bird feeder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenopax View Post
    There are much more family friendly topics like "How much heresy is too much?"
    Any heresy at all, of course, as all loyal citizens should know
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    The 'nids and their digestive systems, not an simple subject, but I might have an encompassing answer/combination with some actual science to form a useful headcanon.

    The complexity and therefore range of stuff their digestive systems can digest is entirely dependent on how long they are supposed to operate.
    A defensive army quickly produced to defend a hive will only have very basic systems which can only digest tyranid "honey", a nutrient paste produced by some tyranid bio structures to quickly refuel. (See bees and ants, some of the prime inspiration for the 'nids)
    The reasoning is simple, outsourcing the digestive work to large dedicated structures which give the created "honey" on demand is much more efficient than giving every creature its own dedicated digestive system, particularly if they don't exist until hours before they are needed.
    If the army needs a bit more range, the smaller individual 'nids can be fueled to capacity and a few extra transport beasts accompany them. Once drained some of the larger 'nids who would have a somewhat more advanced digestive system will in turn devour the transport beasts, so nothing gets wasted.
    Now continue this to the logical end. This is where it gets really interesting.
    Regular Genestealers (not the army version, so to speak) are dedicated long range explorers, so naturally they have the most advanced digestive system. They absolutely need it. Lictors also have that for the same reason, if for a different practical goal.
    If find a hive where small 'nids like gaunts have developed fully functional omnivorous digestive systems, it likely means that hive is (almost) completely feral and barely exists as a hive anymore and any 'nid biofleet likely is far, far away. It means that particular hive is not a priority if you have definitely bigger bugs to roast. (Dive and Conquer, classic really)

    On to some genetics:
    To save on biomasse and energy, giving every single 'nid the entire genetic blueprint is very inefficient. However, giving them their core characteristics (all gaunts would usually get horma and therma strains) and perhaps a basic warrior strain, so they can morph into the next biggest from, should the need arise. The idea is morphing an existing creature with a similar enough structure is faster and/or more cost efficient should a need arise, but to morph further, they would need to go back to a hive and get some sweet, sweet gene therapy to increase their morphing range. That way, the hive can do the same thing again should the need arise.
    A Hive tyrant carries every single strain, so long as a tyrant survives, it can relatively quickly rejuvenate the local hive.
    Every more standard 'nid has the ability to at least absorb other tyranid genetic material. That way, given time and enough biomass/fuel (should a hive be badly damaged and has to go "underground" so to speak) a single gaunt that takes enough bites out of the other dead 'nids of varies subtypes, can become a new hive tyrant.
    Every strain of 'nid is made for very specific jobs. Gaunts and Warriors are the most versatile of the standard 'nids, but ehrefore lack a bit in punsh. Zoanthropes are very specific things and do only 2 things, relay commands and psychic artillery. Without a guiding will, they will eventually simply wander off and follow their most basic survival instincts and given that they lack most essential digestive systems to survive outside the hive, they will just die.

    There are some interesting conclusions for the any force opposing 'nids:
    If you annihilate the bio structures and most of the bigger 'nids, you CAN kill a local hive cluster (pardon me for borrowing the term form StarCraft). The more thorough you are, the more likely it is that the 'nids are permanently exterminated. (at least that local hive)
    It IS possible to attack supply lines of 'nids, which will slow them down, but the advanced force of 'nids will than fully develop their digestive system (not all of them, some will serve as fuel for the others until they have adapted) after which they will do less swarm tactics and more hit-'n-run tactics in addition to devouring the countryside. They are definitely slowed down in any case.

    So my good Guardsmen, Soldier and Officer alike, keep firing, at the big ones if you can, and remember to always go for the literal and/or figurative heart of the swarm. The Emperor protects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Platinius View Post
    The 'nids and their digestive systems, not an simple subject, but I might have an encompassing answer/combination with some actual science to form a useful headcanon.

    The complexity and therefore range of stuff their digestive systems can digest is entirely dependent on how long they are supposed to operate.
    A defensive army quickly produced to defend a hive will only have very basic systems which can only digest tyranid "honey", a nutrient paste produced by some tyranid bio structures to quickly refuel. (See bees and ants, some of the prime inspiration for the 'nids)
    The reasoning is simple, outsourcing the digestive work to large dedicated structures which give the created "honey" on demand is much more efficient than giving every creature its own dedicated digestive system, particularly if they don't exist until hours before they are needed.
    If the army needs a bit more range, the smaller individual 'nids can be fueled to capacity and a few extra transport beasts accompany them. Once drained some of the larger 'nids who would have a somewhat more advanced digestive system will in turn devour the transport beasts, so nothing gets wasted.
    Now continue this to the logical end. This is where it gets really interesting.
    Regular Genestealers (not the army version, so to speak) are dedicated long range explorers, so naturally they have the most advanced digestive system. They absolutely need it. Lictors also have that for the same reason, if for a different practical goal.
    If find a hive where small 'nids like gaunts have developed fully functional omnivorous digestive systems, it likely means that hive is (almost) completely feral and barely exists as a hive anymore and any 'nid biofleet likely is far, far away. It means that particular hive is not a priority if you have definitely bigger bugs to roast. (Dive and Conquer, classic really)

    On to some genetics:
    To save on biomasse and energy, giving every single 'nid the entire genetic blueprint is very inefficient. However, giving them their core characteristics (all gaunts would usually get horma and therma strains) and perhaps a basic warrior strain, so they can morph into the next biggest from, should the need arise. The idea is morphing an existing creature with a similar enough structure is faster and/or more cost efficient should a need arise, but to morph further, they would need to go back to a hive and get some sweet, sweet gene therapy to increase their morphing range. That way, the hive can do the same thing again should the need arise.
    A Hive tyrant carries every single strain, so long as a tyrant survives, it can relatively quickly rejuvenate the local hive.
    Every more standard 'nid has the ability to at least absorb other tyranid genetic material. That way, given time and enough biomass/fuel (should a hive be badly damaged and has to go "underground" so to speak) a single gaunt that takes enough bites out of the other dead 'nids of varies subtypes, can become a new hive tyrant.
    Every strain of 'nid is made for very specific jobs. Gaunts and Warriors are the most versatile of the standard 'nids, but ehrefore lack a bit in punsh. Zoanthropes are very specific things and do only 2 things, relay commands and psychic artillery. Without a guiding will, they will eventually simply wander off and follow their most basic survival instincts and given that they lack most essential digestive systems to survive outside the hive, they will just die.

    There are some interesting conclusions for the any force opposing 'nids:
    If you annihilate the bio structures and most of the bigger 'nids, you CAN kill a local hive cluster (pardon me for borrowing the term form StarCraft). The more thorough you are, the more likely it is that the 'nids are permanently exterminated. (at least that local hive)
    It IS possible to attack supply lines of 'nids, which will slow them down, but the advanced force of 'nids will than fully develop their digestive system (not all of them, some will serve as fuel for the others until they have adapted) after which they will do less swarm tactics and more hit-'n-run tactics in addition to devouring the countryside. They are definitely slowed down in any case.

    So my good Guardsmen, Soldier and Officer alike, keep firing, at the big ones if you can, and remember to always go for the literal and/or figurative heart of the swarm. The Emperor protects.
    Thanks for the breakdown. Big ones will be murdered horribly. I thought zoanthropes sucked their energy out of the Warp? Although if they did that, that might be a way for the tyrannids to get more energy as a whole.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenopax View Post
    Thanks for the breakdown. Big ones will be murdered horribly. I thought zoanthropes sucked their energy out of the Warp? Although if they did that, that might be a way for the tyrannids to get more energy as a whole.
    Where psychers in general get their energy reserves from is a question that is not really answer in 40k in general.
    I see it this way, you spend some of of your own energy (aka sugar, fat, ATP, whatever) to access the powers of the Warp which you try to bend, shape and shoot in certain directions, but most psychers do not have the specific ability to turn that energy into their own reserves.

    EDIT: To make it super simple, if the warp is a gun, the psycher is the gunner that has to spend his own strength to pull the trigger and absorb the recoil. If the psycher is too exhausted to do that, he cannot or he gets hurt/dies while trying. He may even succeed, but healthy it isn't
    Last edited by Platinius; 2018-07-04 at 09:07 AM.

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    Tyranid seeding swarms are Tyranid bioforms left hidden beneath the surface if a hive fleet is forced to retreat, proving a rather unpleasant surprise to the survivors as they attempt to rebuild their worlds.

    If they're cut off from the rest of a hive fleet, I guess they'd have to eat.

    Either Tyranid metabolisms are so efficient there is no waste, or maybe they vomit up pellets like owls?

    I could imagine a Tyranid's innards coating excess consumed biomass in a waxy web coat and then puking it up for later digestion by other nids. It would also result in gross webby fruits made of people-meat glued to ceilings and suchlike, which seems appropriate to Grimdark.

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    I always figured tabletop tyranids were broad generalizations, and that actual fluff tyranids were custom-made when the bio-ships already had some intel on the world they were about to infest, adding or removing traits as necessary on top of a basic template. So the answer would be 'whatever the hive mind deems apropriate at the time', correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Platinius View Post
    Where psychers in general get their energy reserves from is a question that is not really answer in 40k in general.
    I see it this way, you spend some of of your own energy (aka sugar, fat, ATP, whatever) to access the powers of the Warp which you try to bend, shape and shoot in certain directions, but most psychers do not have the specific ability to turn that energy into their own reserves.

    EDIT: To make it super simple, if the warp is a gun, the psycher is the gunner that has to spend his own strength to pull the trigger and absorb the recoil. If the psycher is too exhausted to do that, he cannot or he gets hurt/dies while trying. He may even succeed, but healthy it isn't
    Y'know that's the exact opposite of what I thought Warpy magics were like. I figured the warp *wants* to be released so accessing the warp should be pretty easy. Now controlling it on the other hand, that's where it gets tricky. Warp don't like getting controlled. It likes to be free. So it fights against the psyker and the psyker has to fight back and that's what actually burns the most energy. I figure that's why things like the enumerations (don't think I spelled that right) focus more on controlling/shaping the warp than actually drawing out its power
    Omnissiah grant me the strength to change what I can,
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    when an imperial knight says it wants to stick you in a large arena in which to fight to the death, you can't exactly say no.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenopax View Post
    Y'know that's the exact opposite of what I thought Warpy magics were like. I figured the warp *wants* to be released so accessing the warp should be pretty easy. Now controlling it on the other hand, that's where it gets tricky. Warp don't like getting controlled. It likes to be free. So it fights against the psyker and the psyker has to fight back and that's what actually burns the most energy. I figure that's why things like the enumerations (don't think I spelled that right) focus more on controlling/shaping the warp than actually drawing out its power
    Whatever works for you That is one of the nice parts about 40k, there is a lot of space for headcanon



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    Quote Originally Posted by Platinius View Post
    Whatever works for you That is one of the nice parts about 40k, there is a lot of space for headcanon



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    Quote Originally Posted by Platinius View Post
    Whatever works for you That is one of the nice parts about 40k, there is a lot of space for headcanon



    Completely unrelated New episode is up, have fun guys
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