D&D 5e Base Class Contest II Chat Thread

[Requilac]

Welcome to the chat thread for the Base Class Competitions for D&D 5e. If you wish to say anything about the competition which is neither a submission nor a vote, then it belongs here. You do not need to be a contestant to post here. You are allowed to critique a competitor’s work and offer suggestions on how to improve their homebrew through this thread, but it is preferred if you do so through that class’ specific thread (if applicable). I will also be holding discussions over what the next competition’s theme should be in here. Let us begin.

Submissions thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...rgin-of-Terror
Voting thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...8#post23246678

Former Competitions
Who Needs Swords or Sorcery?, won by WarrentheHero with the Inventor

[Morphic tide]

The usual pattern for these contests is to have one chat thread cover multiple contests, just so you know.

Moving on, I'll first point out that the "horror" side of the theme fully includes horror movie monsters that aren't necessarily fundamentally about horror tropes. So you can just make Universal monsters as base classes, if you want. Or dip into classics like Jekyl and Hyde, or Ye Olden Voodoo Zombie-Slaves.

The second is that 5e's mechanics make Intimidate setups (thus covering the literal fear side of the theme) a lot more difficult, as it has only one level of fear. Attaching riders to that condition, like the Fear spell does to get the effect previously gotten by Terrified (IIRC), does work, but loses a lot of mechanical elegance over 3.5.

The third is that subclasses can be used to dip into multiple kinds of horror from a fairly general baseline, so you can potentially make a few different types of horror monster be in one class, thanks to using a small number of relatively low-impact abilities to pivot the theme.

[Ninja_Prawn]

The usual pattern for these contests is to have one chat thread cover multiple contests, just so you know.

I did try to start one of those a couple of years ago actually, but there wasn't enough interest back then to sustain it. I could revive it now, maybe, but I don't want to step on any more toes than I already have.

[Ivellius]

Moving on, I'll first point out that the "horror" side of the theme fully includes horror movie monsters that aren't necessarily fundamentally about horror tropes. So you can just make Universal monsters as base classes, if you want. Or dip into classics like Jekyl and Hyde, or Ye Olden Voodoo Zombie-Slaves.

...

The third is that subclasses can be used to dip into multiple kinds of horror from a fairly general baseline, so you can potentially make a few different types of horror monster be in one class, thanks to using a small number of relatively low-impact abilities to pivot the theme.

Sssh...that's roughly one of my ideas if I participate this go-around. I'd wanted to get in on the last one but just didn't find time / got distracted with a different homebrew class one of my players is actually using.

That's not my only idea, mind, but it's been one I've wanted to implement for a long time and probably one of the ones I'd most like to do.

[Requilac]

The usual pattern for these contests is to have one chat thread cover multiple contests, just so you know.

I know. I just thought that it would be much better organized if I did it this way.

Moving on, I'll first point out that the "horror" side of the theme fully includes horror movie monsters that aren't necessarily fundamentally about horror tropes. So you can just make Universal monsters as base classes, if you want. Or dip into classics like Jekyl and Hyde, or Ye Olden Voodoo Zombie-Slaves.

The third is that subclasses can be used to dip into multiple kinds of horror from a fairly general baseline, so you can potentially make a few different types of horror monster be in one class, thanks to using a small number of relatively low-impact abilities to pivot the theme.

Umm, I was aware of all that. Nothing is wrong about any of those ideas you just spoke of. They are all valid and could reinforce the theme. Was this comment directed at me or was it just food for thought for the other competitors?

The second is that 5e's mechanics make Intimidate setups (thus covering the literal fear side of the theme) a lot more difficult, as it has only one level of fear. Attaching riders to that condition, like the Fear spell does to get the effect previously gotten by Terrified (IIRC), does work, but loses a lot of mechanical elegance over 3.5.

Just to be clear, when I said "fear" i was referring to the emotion and not necessarily the condition.

[WarrentheHero]

I haven't got anything completed yet, but I'm going to call dibs on "Phobiamancer", someone who harnesses their own past trauma to magically inflict fears on others. Its subclasses focus on specific phobias.

[Requilac]

If any of you aren't feeling particularly creative, I could give some ideas. I have nearly a dozen possible concepts, and only one of which I will submit. You will learn what that is later. There is nothing wrong with asking for help.

[MoleMage]

I knocked out the first outline of a Slasher-villain class last week while on vacation. I'll finish it...sometime.

[Crim the Cold]

I really wanted to participate but the only ideas I have bouncing around are a knowledge skills based scholar type class which 5e doesn't support because no knowledge skills or a shaman type class who uses a special media for storing buff and summoning spells on other characters which can be activated by the either the shaman or the character when the time is right. The shaman won't work because it isn't flavored for either being fear/horror based or fighting against it.

[Requilac]

a shaman type class who uses a special media for storing buff and summoning spells on other characters which can be activated by the either the shaman or the character when the time is right. The shaman won't work because it isn't flavored for either being fear/horror based or fighting against it.

That could easily be a horror themed class if you played it right. Shamans to me have always been associated with voodoo or witches, both of which have strong connections to fantasy horror. maybe you could link them to the hags or fey and give them some extra flavor. I even considered making a hag class based off the weird sisters from Macbeth for this competition. A shaman could easily fit in with the theme.

[Ivellius]

I really wanted to participate but the only ideas I have bouncing around are a knowledge skills based scholar type class which 5e doesn't support because no knowledge skills or a shaman type class who uses a special media for storing buff and summoning spells on other characters which can be activated by the either the shaman or the character when the time is right. The shaman won't work because it isn't flavored for either being fear/horror based or fighting against it.

Just to pile on, a "scholar" class could very easily be a Lovecraftian hero, someone who has eldritch knowledge about things people aren't supposed to know in general and uses that as a basis for adventuring.

[Mourne]

I’ve made major edits to the sleepwalker. I mean, the crowds demanded it and who am I to stand in the way of the desires of the masses?

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Change "log" in the spoiler...

Spoiler: Sleepwalker Changes

Show

• Made the rider/condition portion of Dark Passenger feature equivalent to "half" of the frightened condition. My main question now... should I also make this interact with features and spells as if it were the frightened condition (i.e. "...for purposes of interacting with spells and feats, the creature is considered to frightened").
• Amalgamated Nightmares renamed Spellcasting. Moved to a more normal half caster model versus the weird 1/3rd caster "that’s not an archetype" sandwiched around Wizard archetype progression. It just didn’t work well, especially in setting up the origins as I envisioned them. Moved to 2nd level (from 3rd); removed features from the caster “bump” levels.
• Moved (and renamed) Unsleeping Vigil. Previously Unsleeping. Removed the resistance to psychic damage from the feature – too much frontloading in the features.
• Renamed and reworked the Primeval Fear Nightmare feature… was starting to get too cute with feature names rather than staying with the established conventions.
• Added Reflect Fear. Just wanted to squeeze this in and both the Paladin and Ranger have precedent of sharing ASI with a feature.
• Dread Revelation uses now based on Charisma for number of uses and has a range (oops!). Still bouncing between whether to use the bonus action or action… I know action makes more sense from an economy standpoint but bonus action feels right in relation to the overall power structure of the class.
• Dreaming Feast renamed Tormented Offering
• Darkest Corners renamed Sinister Insight, shifted to earlier level & tweaked.
• Added Night Terror. A minor “ribbon” feature that I just wanted to squeeze in -- more flavorful than useful.
• Reworked Nightmare Form and renamed as Darkest Dreams.
• Revised spell list (again)
• Added first Nightmare Origin (Nightmare of Darkness). My issue with the "origins" currently is that I’m not completely happy with the “capstone” (level 14). Originally wanted a conjure variant but felt feature placement was too close to Manifest Passenger for that. Note that the origin progression is (generally) 3 – Expanded Spell List 3 – Defining Feature 6 – Origin Related Exploration or Social Feature 10 – Improvement to Defining Feature 14 – Capstone.

I'm sure this log is probably gibberish to anyone who didn't read the first iteration but serves -- at the very least -- as a memo to myself.

[Requilac]

@ Mourne

I will eventually get to helping you out, it’s just that I’m currently at work to get my submission completed before the deadline. As soon as that’s done I will see what I can do.

[Crim the Cold]

I got some inspiration from an unexpected source for a better flavor for my scholar type class idea that better fits the theme as well as what I wanted to with it anyways. Is there good website or program(preferably freeware) that does all the formatting for forum posts?

Edit: Placeholder post made. This may take me some time. I am used to working within my homebrew alternate ruleset which is very different from standard D&D.

[Requilac]

I got some inspiration from an unexpected source for a better flavor for my scholar type class idea that better fits the theme as well as what I wanted to with it anyways. Is there good website or program(preferably freeware) that does all the formatting for forum posts?

I personally use Homebrewery, which makes some authentic looking documents for 5e content. As for formatting them as posts in GitP, you can use the template which I made off of the statblock which JNA graciously gave me.

Spoiler: statblock template

Show

Name
Size, Type, Alignment,

---

Armor Class X (X)
Hit Points X (XdX+X)
Speeds X ft.

---

STR	DEX	CON	INT	WIS	CHA
X (+X)	X (+X)	X (+X)	X (+X)	X (+X)	X (+X)

---

Damage Vulnerabilities X
Damage Resistances X
Damage Immunities X
Saving Throws X +X
Skills X +X
Condition Immunities X
Senses Xft
Languages X
Challenge X

---

Feature XXX

Actions

---

Attack Melee/Ranged Weapon/Spell Attack: +X to-hit, reach Xft/Range X/Xft., one target. Hit: X (XdX+X) X damage.

Reactions

---

Reaction XXX

[Mourne]

Some minor edits and corrections to the Sleepwalker.

Added an additional Nightmare Origin (the Nightmare of Murder).

[Requilac]

I apologize for my slowness in getting a submission out, there were some things I wanted to complete before I got to the class. I will be getting far enough into it though to make it competition worthy any day now though. Well, hopefully at least.

_____

What's with all the silence? Last competion was booming with people after two weeks in, but we only have two submissions now. I know that we still have got a month and a week left for the competition, but still, I would assume it would be more easy. Do any of you know why this is happening? If its somehow my fault, don't be afraid to tell me. I don't want this competition to die off right after the 1st contest, and if I can prevent this in the future I would like to.

[Jama7301]

I withheld creating a class for this one, as I couldn't find any inspiration for the theme, and I feel that I'm not quite ready for making base classes, after how last month's contest went. I'm excited to vote though, once that phase starts.

[MoleMage]

Can't speak for everyone, but I've been getting kinda behind on housework and yardwork and so I've been spending more time trying to catch up on all of that the last couple weeks. I did start work on my class but it's still missing features for several levels and all of the archetype information so I haven't posted it yet.

[Ivellius]

What's with all the silence? Last competion was booming with people after two weeks in, but we only have two submissions now. I know that we still have got a month and a week left for the competition, but still, I would assume it would be more easy. Do any of you know why this is happening? If its somehow my fault, don't be afraid to tell me. I don't want this competition to die off right after the 1st contest, and if I can prevent this in the future I would like to.

Creating a whole new base class is fun, but it's a lot of work for this edition. I am still trying to narrow down what I'd like to actually submit for this--I have a few ideas, but they're all in the nascent stages, and I want to build a class I can really "believe" in, if that makes sense. My creative juices have been fleshing out some homebrew documents that are closer to completion and already have work put into them, so the priority hasn't been there.

I think the theme this time around is also much narrower than last.

Personally, I'm even a bit reluctant to discuss ideas here because I feel like people will take them and run off with them. While I know that's silly and/or doesn't really matter even if they do, that explains some of my silence. Let me follow up on something you'd, perhaps, hinted at earlier: out of the ideas you've had, are there any that you'd really like to see implemented as a full class? I or maybe someone who's having creative trouble could potentially work on that instead.

[Ninja_Prawn]

What's with all the silence?

Speaking for myself, writing good base classes is hard and I don't much enjoy it. I don't intend to be a regular entrant in base class contests; I only did the last one because I'd had an idea for a class in the back of my mind for a while.

If you made a mistake here, I'd say it was starting the contest too soon after the last one ended. People need a breather to gather up their inspiration, and the community here isn't large enough to rotate between two 'shifts' of contestants.

[Requilac]

So it appears the biggest issue is that the theme is too narrow and restrictive and that people aren’t feeling particularly inspired. I will remember. I will make sure we speak me about what the intended theme should be before making a new thread.’

Let me follow up on something you'd, perhaps, hinted at earlier: out of the ideas you've had, are there any that you'd really like to see implemented as a full class? I or maybe someone who's having creative trouble could potentially work on that instead.

Oh I have created quite a decent amount of ideas. I have decided which one I want to create, and am not going to list it here, but here are all of my other ideas

-A sort of anti-paladin which only has one spell slot, but regains that spell slot whenever it rolls for initiative. They would get a bunch of direct damage spells and to supplement this a couple of divination, illusion and necromancy rituals. They would also have a special summonable magical item called a Shadow Blade which is made of pure shadow. It deals necrotic damage and on hits it and applying other sorts of conditions such as dealing psychic damage, frightening, reducing speed, reducing HP maximum, regeneration seize, stealing hit points, etc.

-A rework of the Deep One warlock which has a subclass for each of the major Great Old Ones. It has a lot of the GOOlock features, plus some other things based around messing with people’s minds. They would also get a decent amount of teleportation, planar travel and summoning features

-A class based around ghosts and the ethereal plane. It would be sort of roguey and be focused on fighting in unconventional manners. They would get a collection of both arcane and divine spells and most of their features would be based around a gradual transformation into becoming incorporeal. A lot of necromancy involved too

-A class based around literally becoming a fey spirit. It would be less focused on combat than it would exploration and social interaction. They would receive some Druidic spells and an assortment of other arcane ones. They would get a lot of features highlighting their extraplaner body and mind (magic resistance, inscrutable, etc.). Their main features though would focus on ehcnanting weapons/making them magical and controlling the minds of its enemies. A class based around domination like effects and supporting their allies in combat.

-A class literally built around creating and moving around dungeons. You can literally be a villain like Acererak. Several features for building infrastructure, environmental effects and of course trap setting. Summoning and tamng would also be central. By level 20 you could literally build the Tomb of Horrors with your features and spells alone.

[WarrentheHero]

I do have a class I'm working on. I'm just having a hard time refining it to where I want it to be. It's a little unorthodox in its construction, inn a different way than the Inventor was, and I'm having trouble making it work. I've already scrapped and started over once. And I hate posting unfinished classes, outside of maybe a missing feature or two.

In its current incarnation I've got the base class and two of three subclasses made. But something doesn't feel quite right about and I might scrap it again to overhaul the base class.

[WarrentheHero]

Phobiamancer is up and running. Sorta

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...2#post23153632

[Requilac]

@ Mourne

I really like the direction that this class is going in! It seems really thematic to me and interesting. But I do think there is something you could improve on; the nightmare origins I feel are too specific. Darkness, Murder, Fire and Falling are all a little restrictive. That and unless you build like 8 origins than the class will feel incomplete. I think that the class will be a lot more desirable to play if the origins are more broad. It allows for more creative room the sleepwalker. Not to mention it gives you as the creator more room to make features.

So maybe instead of having the nightmare origins as darkness, murder, fire and falling you could include the following instead...

The unknown: This is probably awful close to Darkness, but it can be expanded to represent the fear of anything unknown, possibly including the ocean, amnesia and certain monsters. The features you have the darkness origin could work with slight changes.

Violence: Once again another one close to Murder, but instead of just focusing on serial killers you can extend it to themes like war, belligerent animals and blood. The features you have the murder origin could work with slight changes.

Chaos: Focuses on one losing control of themselves and the situation around them, inclduing the fear of falling, fire and and insanity. The features you were planning on using for the fire and falling origins could easily work here.

Disease: This one is pretty straightforward and represents a blanket fear covering the phobias of diseases, poisons, venomous animals and unsanitary environments. Inflicting disease and poisons, debuffing and altering the environment make sense for features.

Failure: This covers basically the fear of being too weak to do something, being paralyzed and incapable of doing what is necessary, and being outcompeted by others. Debuffs, incapacitating conditions and frightened conditions work with this theme.

Death: Once again, another straightforward theme including the fear of undead/corpses, being killed (obviously), symbols related to funerals (such as coffins or bells), and maybe even being buried alive. Any form of necromancy is possible here, including raising the dead and offensive dark magic.

Inevitability: The primal fear that something is out for you and you can’t escape it. This would include the phobia people/monsters which can easily track you (such as bloodhounds and spiders), certain scavenging creatures (like vultures and worms), or ones that you can’t easily escape from (sharks while in water and some raptors). Conjuring makes the most sense here, with the supplement of some detect/sense like features.

Loneliness: You may want to come up with a better name for this one, but this basically covers the fear of being left behind, trapped in a place alone and losing someone’s affection/attention. Battlefield control effects make the most sense here.

Edit: and if you are looking for a more mystical sounding name for the sleepwalker, you could call it the Somniaturgist.

[Mourne]

I really like the direction that this class is going in! It seems really thematic to me and interesting. But I do think there is something you could improve on; the nightmare origins I feel are too specific. Darkness, Murder, Fire and Falling are all a little restrictive. That and unless you build like 8 origins than the class will feel incomplete. I think that the class will be a lot more desirable to play if the origins are more broad. It allows for more creative room the sleepwalker. Not to mention it gives you as the creator more room to make features.

Thanks! The core class ended up coming together fairly well... maybe shading towards too powerful as I couldn't leave certain features out. The intent was to make the core class very versatile (well, as versatile as could be while boxed in by the narrow 5E fear mechanic) and have a very narrow focus with the archetypes (nightmare origins). Unfortunately, I just started to run out of creative steam with the origins... I had a plan for the how to arrange the mechanics, but couldn't find the "thing" that felt just right and took the easy route out -- very narrowly focused archetypes.

So maybe instead of having the nightmare origins as darkness, murder, fire and falling you could include the following instead...

Before I settled on the current origins I had considered other things... themes around the seven deadly sins, the four horsemen, creating specific "named" nightmares similar in concept to warlock patrons, and just dipping into phobias. I may play around a little with the first two and see if inspiration strikes. In regards to the use of "patrons", I worried some that I had already taken too much creative license with the reference to the Realm of Nightmares (not to be confused with the 3.5 Demiplane of the same name) which would not fit in some (many?) campaigns.

The unknown: This is probably awful close to Darkness, but it can be expanded to represent the fear of anything unknown, possibly including the ocean, amnesia and certain monsters. The features you have the darkness origin could work with slight changes.

Violence: Once again another one close to Murder, but instead of just focusing on serial killers you can extend it to themes like war, belligerent animals and blood. The features you have the murder origin could work with slight changes.

Chaos: Focuses on one losing control of themselves and the situation around them, inclduing the fear of falling, fire and and insanity. The features you were planning on using for the fire and falling origins could easily work here.

Disease: This one is pretty straightforward and represents a blanket fear covering the phobias of diseases, poisons, venomous animals and unsanitary environments. Inflicting disease and poisons, debuffing and altering the environment make sense for features.

Failure: This covers basically the fear of being too weak to do something, being paralyzed and incapable of doing what is necessary, and being outcompeted by others. Debuffs, incapacitating conditions and frightened conditions work with this theme.

Death: Once again, another straightforward theme including the fear of undead/corpses, being killed (obviously), symbols related to funerals (such as coffins or bells), and maybe even being buried alive. Any form of necromancy is possible here, including raising the dead and offensive dark magic.

Inevitability: The primal fear that something is out for you and you can’t escape it. This would include the phobia people/monsters which can easily track you (such as bloodhounds and spiders), certain scavenging creatures (like vultures and worms), or ones that you can’t easily escape from (sharks while in water and some raptors). Conjuring makes the most sense here, with the supplement of some detect/sense like features.

Loneliness: You may want to come up with a better name for this one, but this basically covers the fear of being left behind, trapped in a place alone and losing someone’s affection/attention. Battlefield control effects make the most sense here.

Thank you for the ideas! I'll revisit the concept and see if I can't broaden the origins some. I could see going with something along the lines of the Dark Unknown, Unfathomable Depths, Raging Madness, and Eternal Imprisonment... a tad more poetic (almost sounding like a patron name, hmm) and not so narrow.

Edit: and if you are looking for a more mystical sounding name for the sleepwalker, you could call it the Somniaturgist.

Yeah. The class name is a struggle. I don't love the current name but nothing else comes to mind that meets the criteria of my strange naming convention.

Thanks again for taking a look! Let me know if you see anything completely broken mechanically.

Looking forward to seeing your entry.

[Requilac]

Thanks! The core class ended up coming together fairly well... maybe shading towards too powerful as I couldn't leave certain features out. The intent was to make the core class very versatile (well, as versatile as could be while boxed in by the narrow 5E fear mechanic) and have a very narrow focus with the archetypes (nightmare origins).

Too powerful? I would say currently that you have the exact opposite problem, your base class by itself seems to weak to me.

Dark Passenger is basically just a cantrip that does average damage and applies a weaker version of the frightened condition.

Ominous Presence is helpful but not all that great because really, who ever takes the help action? A similar function can also be done by familiars.

Unsleeping Vigil just grants you one of the elf's features, one which really isn't all that useful except in the most niche of scenarios.

Reflect Fear is fine, but the advantage is weaker than gnome cunning which is recieved at level 1, and the whole reflection ability is unlikely to come up because an unnecessary amount of 5e monsters are immune to the frightened condition.

Dread Revelation is basically a worst version of the Fear spell, which is already on the sleepwalker spell list.

Tormented Offerings would rarely ever be worth it, because exhaustion is very difficult to cure in 5e.

Sinister Insight is a worst version of applying the Charmed condition.

Enter Sandman is a version of the Sleep spell without an AoE and some DoT

By level 15 you can summon a CR 4 monster once per long rest... While your team druid at this level can cast Summon Woodland Beings at higher levels and do that multiple times a day.

Sleep Walker is another version of Astral Projection.

Darkest Dreams is over-all rather powerful, but it doesn't come online until level 20, which hardly any game reaches.

_____

Basically the base class over-all has decent power, but for the most part it can't do anything an elf wizard couldn't. But what it can do is that it can use all of that without expending spell slots, which gives the sleepwalker more in combat power. But that doesn't mean the class is destined to be horrible; you just have to give it more specialty in the archetypes. This has a lot of potential if you build the nightmare origins properly, which is why I cared about them so much.

Unfortunately, I just started to run out of creative steam with the origins... I had a plan for the how to arrange the mechanics, but couldn't find the "thing" that felt just right and took the easy route out -- very narrowly focused archetypes.

Before I settled on the current origins I had considered other things... themes around the seven deadly sins, the four horsemen, creating specific "named" nightmares similar in concept to warlock patrons, and just dipping into phobias. I may play around a little with the first two and see if inspiration strikes. In regards to the use of "patrons", I worried some that I had already taken too much creative license with the reference to the Realm of Nightmares (not to be confused with the 3.5 Demiplane of the same name) which would not fit in some (many?) campaigns.

I don't see anything wrong with having patrons, and I believe it makes sense considering the Manifest Passenger feature. That being said, I think that having the sleepwalker focus more on intangible forces rather than actual creatures is a lot more interesting and thematically appropriate.

As for the Realm of Nightmares, you didn't really describe what that was, so the flavor of that could easily be determined by the DM to fit the setting. It could be a demi-plane created by a demon, another planet, a section of the Far Realm, a twisted version of Lovecraft's Dreamscape, etc. A lot of creative space for what exactly the Realm of Nightmares is.

Thank you for the ideas! I'll revisit the concept and see if I can't broaden the origins some. I could see going with something along the lines of the Dark Unknown, Unfathomable Depths, Raging Madness, and Eternal Imprisonment... a tad more poetic (almost sounding like a patron name, hmm) and not so narrow.

I like it! Still feeling a little narrow to me, but I am rather fond of those archetype concepts and think they could work rather well.

Yeah. The class name is a struggle. I don't love the current name but nothing else comes to mind that meets the criteria of my strange naming convention.

Thanks again for taking a look! Let me know if you see anything completely broken mechanically.

Looking forward to seeing your entry.

You could always translate something from another language, especially an obscure one which people wouldn't recognize. I will not comment on mechanics yet until the archetypes are completed, as they are crucial to determining whether a class is broken or not.

Thank you for all the kind words. Hopefully I can get my base class put out there fairly soon.

[Requilac]

Alright I have gotten to work on the Deep Spawn class, but it’s not anywhere near completion yet so I will not post it. Basically I am going to take a more specific approach to this completion by making what is basically a sort of supper powered Deep One from Lovecraft’s writings. A lot of ocean and terror themed features here and relations to pre-existing aquatic monsters in 5e lore and similar sea faring animals. Half casting martial class, some intention of being an antithesis of a paladin (but a much more creative one than the death knight stereotype). Some of the features are being stolen right from my home brewed fighter subclass, the aberration. Hopefully, it will turn out the way I want it to.

[Crim the Cold]

I have been working on the Erudite class and subclasses. Right now the core mechanic that makes everything else work is a knowledge check. It is an intelligence check that they get to add their proficiency bonus to for identifying the strengths, weaknesses, and attacks of undead, fiends, dragons, and non-humanoid monsters. They can make this check versus any opponent but they only get their proficiency bonus versus the enemies listed. This check starts out as a standard action at level 1. Eventually it becomes a move action, then a bonus action, and then the player must choose between an automatic take 10 even under duress or a free action.

The idea being that when they start out they're new at it and it takes them some time. They can only suss out one opponent per turn. Their capability improves to 2 per turn when they start the subclasses. Then it improves to where they can figure out 3 per turn or 1 and be able to fight and move. Finally they either get so confident in their skills that they can reliably identify their opponents even when stressed by fighting or other conditions or their analytical abilities improve to the point that they can figure out several opponents with just a glance.

The check DC will be set at 5+CR though that can be adjusted if it seems too easy.

[Mourne]

Too powerful? I would say currently that you have the exact opposite problem, your base class by itself seems to weak to me.

Dark Passenger is basically just a cantrip that does average damage and applies a weaker version of the frightened condition.

True, as intended. My intent was for it to scale in damage similarly to (half) of the Rogue’s sneak attack damage or the Paladin’s smite – as a baseline. Given that it doesn’t require a roll to hit and potentially applies half the frightened condition, I’m reasonably happy with it as a main stay. One thing to note is that the condition component of this feature, given that it’s not officially the frightened condition, applies even to creatures that are immune to fear.

Some things I’m consider to improve the overall power:

- Tweak the damage progression – smooth it out some (done in latest edit)
- Add that a creature failing the saving throw is considered to have to the frightened condition for purposes of interacting with other class features. Note that this would not actually apply any effects of that condition, only the tag itself.
- Add Charisma modifier to damage.
- Change damage type to force (this is not tied as well thematically as psychic damage imo)

Ominous Presence is helpful but not all that great because really, who ever takes the help action? A similar function can also be done by familiars.

It’s definitely a “YMMV” feature depending on the group makeup, DM, campaign, etc. The purpose of this feature was more as rider/solidification of theme rather than as a straight up power boost. I personally think it’s decent. If the class does end up needing small power boosts here and there, this could be buffed to affect multiple targets (e.g. Charisma modifier or minimum of 1).

Unsleeping Vigil just grants you one of the elf's features, one which really isn't all that useful except in the most niche of scenarios.

Very true. Honestly, this was just a throw in feature to continue unifying the theme. I tweaked this feature to allow something akin to clairvoyance during the "sleeping" state (i.e. the dark passenger as a scout). I removed the advantage on checks against exhaustion as it didn't seem to really fit.

Reflect Fear is fine, but the advantage is weaker than gnome cunning which is recieved at level 1, and the whole reflection ability is unlikely to come up because an unnecessary amount of 5e monsters are immune to the frightened condition.

Certainly weaker than Gnome Cunning as it’s entirely focused on a single condition (it might make sense to add advantage on saves to resist psychic damage as well). I changed the reflection to inflict damage rather than be condition based; “consumes” the fear to replenish hit points. This gets around the sheer number of fear-immune creatures – something which I had not taken into account.

Dread Revelation is basically a worst version of the Fear spell, which is already on the sleepwalker spell list.

And I feel that it has to be this was as it only requires a bonus action to activate (which the base sleepwalker doesn’t have much competition for). As it’s not a spell, this can be paired with the casting of any spell in addition to normal combat actions (attack). Power wise, this feature was something that I most worried about – even though it is a single target/watered down version of Fear.

Tormented Offerings would rarely ever be worth it, because exhaustion is very difficult to cure in 5e.

Given the sleepwalker’s suite of features, I think that exhaustion doesn’t necessarily impair them as much as other classes – I’d bet even three levels of exhaustion wouldn’t have too much impact. If I keep this (over the alternate feature), I could see maybe buffing Unsleeping Vigil to remove a multiple levels of exhaustion or to perhaps use Hit Die as the power for Tormented Offerings instead. I don’t love this feature but am loath to just create another feature that is a “pure” combat offering… that being said, I've added an alternate feature at this level (Crippling Panic) for review. It's certainly more straight forward and perhaps plays better.

Sinister Insight is a worst version of applying the Charmed condition.

Indeed. Meant more to be a ribbon than anything. I actually modified this (now called Needful Things) and probably made this less "powerful" with more RP potential.

Enter Sandman is a version of the Sleep spell without an AoE and some DoT

This was buffed – tried to baseline damage equivalent to a 5th level (dd) spell; could still increase the duration of the upon awakening condition (or use a different condition).

By level 15 you can summon a CR 4 monster once per long rest... While your team druid at this level can cast Summon Woodland Beings at higher levels and do that multiple times a day.

I don't think I agree here, though maybe I overvalued incorporeal – very powerful if played right. I did swap out some/most of the ghost features – there are some nasty conditions this entity can inflict.

Also, unlike the team druid’s summon/conjuration spells, this does not require concentration.

I did further tweak by adding another feature -- a self heal mechanism

Sleep Walker is another version of Astral Projection.

Yeah (with Etherealness thrown in to cover all bases). A semi-ribbon though it’s certainly functional – I did modify to allow the inclusion of others (at the cost of a 3rd level or higher spell slot).

Darkest Dreams is over-all rather powerful, but it doesn't come online until level 20, which hardly any game reaches.

Sad how few games ever reach the capstone… I did modify this some to make the defensive buff somewhat cleaner.

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Basically the base class over-all has decent power, but for the most part it can't do anything an elf wizard couldn't. But what it can do is that it can use all of that without expending spell slots, which gives the sleepwalker more in combat power. But that doesn't mean the class is destined to be horrible; you just have to give it more specialty in the archetypes. This has a lot of potential if you build the nightmare origins properly, which is why I cared about them so much.

My comparison baseline was really the other ½ casters and the rogue (I always like to use rogue for comparisons for some reason). Too many variables with wizards to say x is equal to y as it’s very dependent on situation, skill of player, etc.

Based on your feedback and a few dozen more read-throughs, I’ve made a few tweaks. I’m still struggling/not entirely happy with the origins. If I go with a narrow focus/defined theme they become very niche. If I go broader, they (I) seem to lose focus and just start throwing features at them. For the time being, I’m going to treat the origins as a quasi-patron with control of a very focused slice of the nightmare pie. I think this still provides a lot of potential for expansion but – on the downside – may turn them into one trick ponies (for example, a fire origin would be all but useless against fire immune/resistance creatures).

Again, thanks for the input. I only wish -- given the time this class has consumed -- that I had plans to use/allow it in my own campaign. Maybe as a villain?