Star Wars: The Last Jedi and the 7 Basic Questions of Narrative Drama

[Lethologica]

I really did not think the plan to save Han were bad. It had several layers of backup.

That's not how backup works. Backup is supposed to make the job safer and easier, not harder and more dangerous.

First Lando infiltrate as a guard.
Then the droids are send in as well, being there to provide even more backup, with R2D2 being able to both hack anything, and also carrying a hidden weapon.

R2 couldn't hack his way out of a Jawa dump truck. He's good at some things, but he's not able to 'hack anything'. And what was he going to do about the simple expedient of a padlocked cell door? Or a wheel lock? Or being held upside down like that other droid? (Wait, don't tell me, he had some tool we never saw in the OT that would take care of it. Right. That inspires confidence.)

If he did hack his way out, which he couldn't, how was he going to help? His hidden weapon is a bloody lightsaber. If it was intended as backup for anyone but Luke, it should have been a blaster. Not that we ever saw anyone who infiltrated have trouble bringing weapons in their own damn selves, from blasters to outright bombs. And it's not like Jabba's palace is a maze of technological marvels that requires R2's hacking expertise, even the overstated version of it you presented.

So we've established that nothing the droids do could possibly constitute useful backup - except, wait. Nobody has even bothered to suggest that C-3PO could have been useful, because of course he's only good for a joke, right? But he's the one who actually did something for the plan in the movie, enabling Leia's disguise by translating her Ubese for Jabba. That's right, C-3PO is the only reason this isn't a total write-off. It's only 90% of one.

Meanwhile, Lando is theoretically okay backup, even if he never actually does anything in that role until the last possible moment. But there's no good reason to make his position backup instead of the first resort.

Lei are then the first attempt to actually resque Han. She already have support in place. And if everything had gone as planned then she and chewbacca could likely have stolen away with the sick Han on a speeder of some sort.
Lando would then have no trouble extracting himself, and stealing a couple droids in the process.

Okay, so there's not even an attempt to present Chewie as possible backup, even though he's the most likely candidate out of all three newly introduced prisoners if fighting is anticipated (and I must assume that it is, because of R2's hidden lightsaber). Duly noted.

Nor is there any attempt to defend the plan from the criticisms I had already made. There's just the statement that if everything works out perfectly, the plan works. Of course that's the case. That's the bare minimum to even call it a plan. But this plan is made as fragile and complicated as possible for no good reason whatsoever. Every time someone says "backup", they seem to be talking about introducing a problem that the plan now needs to fix if everything goes right, which is the opposite of what backup is supposed to do. Leia's 'backup' is that C-3PO and R2 and Chewie now need rescuing. And Luke's 'backup' is that now he has to get his lightsaber from R2 when he can't predict that R2 will be present. Do you see how at each step the plan is digging its own grave?

This is continued, of course, by Leia's role in the plan, which is to make as big a ruckus as possible, drawing all eyes to her, and bringing in Chewbacca, drawing a straight-line connection to Han, so that she can...sneak in to rescue Han that very night? I will give her credit for her disguise, but that is the only good thing about her part in the plan. In every other way, Lando is better-positioned to do what Leia is trying to do. Sure, he doesn't have 'backup' the way Leia does, but that is a manufactured need invented by the people trying to defend the plan. The only backup that works never infiltrated Jabba's base to begin with, he just walked in and started making demands.

Unfortunately that plan fails. So Luke is the brute force solution. Not actual brute force of course. That cant really be used when they have Han as hostage.
But force persuasion works wonders on weak minds. And everyone who reads Space-Batman knows criminals are a cowardly and superstitious lot. So this should be easy, right?
So easy it should have been done from the start. If not because someones evil dad makes them want to keep as low a profile as possible.

Luke was trying so hard to keep the lowest possible profile that literally the first thing that we see at Jabba's palace is Luke sending envoys to announce himself by name and title and appearance. Come on.

[Sapphire Guard]

They don't have a solid plan, because it's impossible until they know what is in the palace. It's 'get everyone in and work with what you have.' What happens isn't plan A, it's plan C or D.

Possible Plan A: Leia grabs Han and gets out. He's the most vulnerable prisoner, as he's in carbonite/blind. So priority 1.

Luke comes in, asks for his droids and/or Chewbacca back, mindtricks, threatens, bargains, or uses lightsabre to get out. If that doesn't work, Lando's there to help depending on what is needed. He stays in cover for the first two plans in case something goes wrong.

Leia is rumbled, which ends Plan A.

Luke wasn't expecting a Rancor, which scuppers Plan B.

No need to smuggle in blasters you can just walk in wearing one. A lightsabre, not so much.

Chewbacca captive is a step up from Han captive, as he's not frozen in carbonite and can assist in any escape. He can't be disguised, so goes in under his own identity.
,

[Fyraltari]

In really like your explanation for Lando, and it would make perfect sense. The one thing against it, though, is that I think Lando wore a helmet with a vizier that disguised his face, so I think the idea was to show that he was going undercover as well. If I'm not mistaken.

I mean yeah that is what is implied but as Lethologica pointed out, nothing makes sense here.

Besides Bobba wears an even more face-concealing helmet and he isn't undercover. Actually I think concealing your face is kind of a trend in the Galaxy far, far away.

[Kyberwulf]

I must have missed the part where you told us the name of good movies that push agendas on us.

[Amazon]

@Kyberwulf.

For years we had male dominated movies, main leads and characters that glorified war and all types of certain ideals.

They didn't have to prove anything did they?

But if you have strong women in your story you have to prove your worth? You are pushing a conspiracy or some dumb crap? Grow up.

[Devonix]

Also all movies push agendas. Its the point of art.

[Lethologica]

Kyberwulf seems to have posted in the wrong thread. So he's not in the thread where people are generally talking about movies pushing agendas on people, nor is he in the thread where I was arguing about agenda-pushing as a subtopic and cited multiple examples of good movies with agendas. It's kind of funny, really.

They don't have a solid plan, because it's impossible until they know what is in the palace. It's 'get everyone in and work with what you have.' What happens isn't plan A, it's plan C or D.

They put. A guy. In the palace. That was literally the first thing that happened in the plan. Why is the second thing in the plan "rush a bunch more of our people into servitude/imprisonment because we don't have a solid plan," instead of, I dunno, finding out what's in the palace and planning from there? I mean, if each plan is basically "Person X runs in and rescues everyone themselves," why isn't Plan A 'Lando runs in and rescues Han himself," instead of "Lando runs in and waits until we have to rescue Han and R2 and C-3PO and Chewie...and then waits for Leia to run in and rescue everyone"?

Possible Plan A: Leia grabs Han and gets out. He's the most vulnerable prisoner, as he's in carbonite/blind. So priority 1.

Luke comes in, asks for his droids and/or Chewbacca back, mindtricks, threatens, bargains, or uses lightsabre to get out. If that doesn't work, Lando's there to help depending on what is needed. He stays in cover for the first two plans in case something goes wrong.

Note that you have to specify Han's prisoner status now, because there are more prisoners, because we went with the "rush a bunch of people into prison because we don't have a plan" plan.

But somehow it's critically important to this not-a-plan that Lando not take part. We don't have a plan except to get everyone in by whatever means, but the guy who's in, you are backup to everyone else, so don't do anything. If you do, by God, it could scuttle the plan! You might even be taken prisoner!

And it's not like Lando was even any use as backup when the first thing went wrong, or the second, or the third...he actually becomes yet another person who needs to be rescued during the Sarlacc fight.

Fine, so we've given away the droids and Lando isn't doing anything.

I don't get why people are just describing the plan at me as if that's a defense of the plan. Yes, I know what the plan is. That doesn't make it a good plan, or even a mediocre plan.

Leia is rumbled, which ends Plan A.

Luke wasn't expecting a Rancor, which scuppers Plan B.

No need to smuggle in blasters you can just walk in wearing one. A lightsabre, not so much.

Why not? What is wrong with walking in wearing his lightsaber? Is it going to give away that he's a Jedi? He already announced that! Is it going to be taken away from him if he gets captured? Well, gosh, seems like he could use it to not be captured! Is he going to fight Jabba's guards? Why wait?

Chewbacca captive is a step up from Han captive, as he's not frozen in carbonite and can assist in any escape. He can't be disguised, so goes in under his own identity.
,

but why tho

Honestly I feel like there isn't much point writing all this until the people who are defending the plan puts each of their own comments past the "but why tho" test. I've made my point. I'm gonna leave it here unless someone has something really interesting to say about it.

[Kitten Champion]

Ya'know, I genuinely never considered the Han rescue plan in any serious way.

They wanted Luke in the pit to fight the monster and Leia in the bikini - because Flash Gordon - and that's about it.

It was genuinely the best part of that movie, mostly because it was the most focused and it was neat seeing Luke as a confident adult.

[Lethologica]

Ya'know, I genuinely never considered the Han rescue plan in any serious way.

They wanted Luke in the pit to fight the monster and Leia in the bikini - because Flash Gordon - and that's about it.

It was genuinely the best part of that movie, mostly because it was the most focused and it was neat seeing Luke as a confident adult.

Oh, for sure. The simple effective plan would have been so boring on screen. People were just cataloguing dumb Star Wars plans, so I had to stick my oar in.

[Dienekes]

So there is a way to rationalize the "plan"

I'm 100% certain that is actually not what any of the writers actually thought and were just running on rule of cool.

Step 1: Infiltration: Lando is sent in early as a means of reconnaissance and to free Han if the opportunity presents itself. He determines that it is not going to work and sends what info he can to the others.

Step 2: Bargaining: Luke sends the two droids hoping that Jabba will take the trade. If he took the trade, great. Then, since he is most certainly going to be less watchful over a few droids, when Lando saw the time was right he'd sneak them out.

Step 3: Enter the Jedi: If Jabba didn't take the trade, Luke was going to go in himself. He thought he'd be disarmed before he entered so he placed his lightsaber in R2. Thinking himself mighty clever when he did it.

Step 4: Fight: Luke plans to go in and mind trick Jabba into just doing what he wants. If that doesn't work he has R2 and Lando in position on the inside, and Leia and Chewbacca running support. It'd be dangerous and there's no guarantee they'd all make it out alive, but they were out of options.

But like any decent heist story something goes a bit wrong. Lando couldn't get to Han from within the guards. The droids couldn't be bartered for him. And Luke's last step in the plan seemed almost suicidally insane to them. There's no way, even with his newfound powers they could ever fight through all of Jabba's palace. So the two characters the most impatient to see a freed Han (and the two who act mostly on their instincts), Chewy and Leia, decide to take matters into their own hand.

Maybe Leia can pretend to be a bounty hunter and deliver Chewy. He wasn't as wanted as Han, but definitely he was on the list. This could bring her into Jabba's good graces, just like Boba Fett once he brought in Han. Plus there's likely to be a celebration at the capture. A party. If they get everyone drunk/high then during the night Leia can break free Han, and Lando could free Chewy and the droids. Best part? No going in guns blazing against the entirety of Jabba's palace. Just sneaking around at night and not waking up a bunch of folks in a drunken stupor.

And it would have worked too... except Jabba didn't believe Leia's acting. And it failed.

So now Luke goes in. He actually had a few more steps he wanted to complete, they were in no way ready for operation bust Han out. His desire to delay is part of why Leia and Chewy went in alone in the first place. And now they've just wrecked his plan and he's going in alone. But now everyone is basically captured and he's worried what will happen to Leia and Chewy, so he basically shows up as early as he can. Hoping the Force will guide him, because nothing else will.

So he walks through the front door, and expects to be frisked. And these goofy looking pig faced goobers don't even touch him. And he's thinking "Jeez... I could have just worn my damn lightsaber. This crime lord's security is frankly ridiculously lax. Maybe the mind trick plan will work?

The mind trick plan does not work.

Well ****. Operation Bust Out My Sweet Lightsaber Moves is go! And he's just about to call his lightsaber to his side, when the trap door opens up beneath him and he's facing the rancor. So he beats the thing off without his weapon and gets forced into prison besides Han.

The rest is basically just everyone scrambling and making stuff up as they go. Because basically everything else has failed.

That's really the best I can come up with as a narrative that makes sense. And you can see how much mental gymnastics I had to do to get there. Basically I agree that the plan doesn't actually make sense in the movie.

So, since we're now just discussing Star Wars topics, can I just point out my biggest problem with the new series. And no it isn't Rey being a Sue (she kinda is, but it's not too terribly blatant), or Rose being horrible (meh, she was fine her plot line was boring though), or Luke being a crotchety old loser (loved it), or how Snoke doesn't have a backstory (neither did the Emperor... originally), or how Kylo Ren is the way he is (Real Nazis replaced by whiny young Neo-Nazi loser with no actual political philosophy fueled more by rage over his own inadequacies and disappointment in life, and worshiping the fictionalization of a violent warrior past. That makes total sense to me.), or even how boring as hell the casino planet is (no real counter-argument here this part sucked).

I think Finn is the worst written character in Star Wars, and I'm including the prequels.

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His entire narrative and character is a muddled mess, and has been since the first few minutes of TFA. He is this giant ball of wasted potential and it's sad, because he could have easily been the most interesting Star Wars protagonist in any movie so far. But he is just so much less than his concept.

Alright, so, I'm going to go through his arc in the two movies thus far.

He starts off as a nameless stormtrooper. A child soldier, who was enslaved and forced to become a faceless murder machine. He then sees a fellow trooper die and realizing how little their lives mean to the First Order. So he breaks from the First Order and frees the rebel pilot that can get him away from all this.
So far, so good. It's actually the most unique thing added to the Star Wars mythos in the new series. We are forced to look at the faceless soldiers of the empire, not as mooks, but as people. Slaves, basically forced to serve an uncaring evil government. It casts the villains in a new more complicated and more interesting light.

But then the awfulness begins. So this broken child soldier whose entire reason for running away is over the deaths of his fellow troopers. As soon as he joins the "good" side he starts murdering his fellow troopers and cracks jokes the entire time!
Then Poe "dies" and he shows more sadness over the guy he knew for all of 5 minutes than those he served with for decades.
He then finds Rey, and the first thing he does is immediately start flirting with her, and asking her questions about whether or not she has a boyfriend. And it's like someone who wrote the movie watched The Guardians of the Galaxy and thought "Hey Starlord's pretty popular, can we add that kind of humor into this movie, too?" And he's written as this over-enthusiastic punchline, without any of the depth that made Peter Quill interesting (and the jokes weren't as good either). Is this a child soldier? Is this a man who was brainwashed by neo-fascists his entire life? Does he show any regret that he is forced to kill basically his brothers and sisters for his own freedom? Hell does he even show an iota of military discipline in his mannerisms?

No. He's just this big wasted ball of potential.

We find out that Finn was a garbage man on the Starkiller Base, and it's sort of implied that SKB is the reason why he's rebelling, not the dead trooper. Also it makes me wonder why the garbage man trooper was apparently a part of Kylo Ren's personal assault force in the beginning of the movie. You'd think he'd have his own version of the 501st Legion, but that's a relatively minor thing.

Then, climax of the film time. And he is placed face to face with the very symbol of his oppression: Phasma. And what happens? "I'm in charge now Phasma. I'm in charge!" Even this momentous part of his life is played for a joke. And it's not even a good joke!

So the movie wraps up and he gets wounded. And on to the next movie.

Finn wakes up and we realize something about the character. All last movie wasn't about him joining the rebellion, it was about him growing close with Rey. Sure, I can see the train of logic that leads to that. After all he never actually has a moment where he joins. He's clearly just trying to run from the First Order and it take Rey being captured for him to take part on the assault of the base.

You know, that's fine. What's not fine is that his arc is the dumbest part of the movie. We see him going through the exact same motions that we saw in the last movie. He whines about how dangerous the First Order is. Tries to run away from them, until he meets a woman who drags him into thinking about something other than himself. On the plus side, Rose actually handles this better than Rey. Rose keeps him in line by literally knocking him out as a deserter and arguing passionately about the destruction of the First Order and how they need to be stopped. While Finn followed Rey because... she's pretty. I think.

Sadly, the full arc of gambling planet was the biggest drain on the movie. The cops come after Rose and Finn because they parked on the beach! They parked out in the open in a no parking zone! That's it. That was their problem, they parked poorly. The entire set up could have been solved by just parking in a parking space like a normal person. Or somewhere remote. Not on a damn beach where everyone can see!

So, Finn takes part in more murdering of his brothers. And he again faces the symbol of his oppression. She fares no better this time. And Finn makes even worse jokes while he beats her. Calling her chrome dome and himself "rebel scum." Nothing carries weight, nothing feels like it makes sense for the character's backstory.

Though he does actually show some character growth. From the whiny coward of the first two movies, he takes it upon himself to sacrifice his ship to save the Rebellion. Groovy. Only he is stopped by Rose, who then announces that she loves him. It's awkward, the two had no romantic chemistry the whole movie. And it seems thrown in just to make a stupid love rhombus next movie between Rey-Fin-Rose-Ben.

I also think they're setting him up to be some beacon of resistance for the stormtroopers to rally behind next movie. One of their own that broke free and can now show them they do not need to serve the Kylo. Only, at this point, the other trooper's response should be. "Why should we listen to you, *******. You don't care about us either. You've killed more of us than Kylo ever did."

[Mightymosy]

I think there's an important lesson with that whole Jabba's palace arc.

Couple people pointed out a couple flaws with that, but in general, people didn't give that much movie as much crap as they give TLJ now.

And I think there is a very simple reason:
RotJ wanted us to enjoy the movie. It wanted us to sit back, eart popcorn and enjoy the cinema.
It portrayed all the protagonists as cool heroes who go about their business.

That's why most people do exactly that: Enjoy the movie and root for the protagonists, eat their popcorn and enjoy the fireworks, even though it might not be completely logical at every step.

TLJ, on the other hand, wants to be subversive. It wants to shake things up. And it wants us to question our beloved heroes from the OT. It doesn't simply give us more awesome scenes with them, it deconstructs them and the universe around them.
This, of course, immediately evokes a reaction on your part: Because as we are forced to question what we had liked in the first place, we are in "questioning mode" and look closer at the movie that tries to teach us a lesson. And sure enough, that one is really really flawed, logically.





Simply put: a student doesn't question a teacher who just lets them watch movies in class. They just run with it and are happy they don't have to do homework. But if a teacher tries to be stern and teach a lesson, they better be prepared to defend it, and they better get the basics of what they teach right. (Which TLJ just wasn't, in my opinion.)


I'm ending with a question: Which - if any - character do you think Rian Johnson wanted us to like?

[Dienekes]

I'm ending with a question: Which - if any - character do you think Rian Johnson wanted us to like?

That's pretty easy, Rey, Finn, Rose, and Poe are all meant to be likable. Even Luke is supposed to give us a feeling of awe when he comes around to be the hero we all want him to be. Now, you can argue that they weren't actually likable for whatever reason. But I don't think that changes the writer's intention.

It's amusing, for an obvious deconstruction a whole lot of the movie also offers a reconstruction as well. Poe gets slammed for being a hotheaded violence obsessed pilot. But by the end he's still considered a natural and skilled leader, who just needs to slow down and think of the big picture as well. Rose could be seen as a naive idealist who's view of the world as black and white is fundamentally wrong with the reveal that the same folks were backing the rebels and the empire. But the end re-affirms that perfect or not, the cause is still worth fighting for. Rey challenges the guiding power of the Force and it's opposite the "Dark Side" showing that the Jedi Order is ultimately just half the answer, yet she still chooses good in the objective sense even when temptation was right in front of her. And Luke clearly deconstructs the heroes journey and the very concept of hero worship, that he is as flawed a man as any. And yet at the end, he embraces his symbolism and still inspires the next generation of rebels in the galaxy. Then there's Finn... Finn sucks. But he's clearly supposed to be likable. That's why they gave him all those joke-y jokes.

Really the only character designed to be completely unlikable is Ben. Who's a whiny nihilistic turd who screams about how the past needs to die, but is more obsessed with that past than anyone. The mere hint of it is enough to make him turn into a short-sighted blubbering lunatic.

[Devonix]

That's pretty easy, Rey, Finn, Rose, and Poe are all meant to be likable. Even Luke is supposed to give us a feeling of awe when he comes around to be the hero we all want him to be. Now, you can argue that they weren't actually likable for whatever reason. But I don't think that changes the writer's intention.

It's amusing, for an obvious deconstruction a whole lot of the movie also offers a reconstruction as well. Poe gets slammed for being a hotheaded violence obsessed pilot. But by the end he's still considered a natural and skilled leader, who just needs to slow down and think of the big picture as well. Rose could be seen as a naive idealist who's view of the world as black and white is fundamentally wrong with the reveal that the same folks were backing the rebels and the empire. But the end re-affirms that perfect or not, the cause is still worth fighting for. Rey challenges the guiding power of the Force and it's opposite the "Dark Side" showing that the Jedi Order is ultimately just half the answer, yet she still chooses good in the objective sense even when temptation was right in front of her. And Luke clearly deconstructs the heroes journey and the very concept of hero worship, that he is as flawed a man as any. And yet at the end, he embraces his symbolism and still inspires the next generation of rebels in the galaxy. Then there's Finn... Finn sucks. But he's clearly supposed to be likable. That's why they gave him all those joke-y jokes.

Really the only character designed to be completely unlikable is Ben. Who's a whiny nihilistic turd who screams about how the past needs to die, but is more obsessed with that past than anyone. The mere hint of it is enough to make him turn into a short-sighted blubbering lunatic.

Ben is so obsessed with not the past but " HIS " view of the past that he latches onto a memory of something that didn't really happen, and never tries to think about it differently.

When Ben talks about that night with Luke, he imagines Luke standing over him with hatred in his eyes, and swinging a lightsaber at him. Those things never happened but because that's his view of the past he never looks past it. He holds onto it tight and it influences his actions forward.

[Yora]

Rose could be seen as a naive idealist who's view of the world as black and white is fundamentally wrong with the reveal that the same folks were backing the rebels and the empire. But the end re-affirms that perfect or not, the cause is still worth fighting for.

I think actually the opposite, which made it the one thing about the movie I really quite liked. She is introduced as a normal person who is pretty much lost among the great heroes and doesn't have the ability to fight. She's just some insignificant technician while even her redshirt sister was a bombardier on a heavy bomber and doesn't have any apparent skill to actively fight the empire.
But then she comes along on an adventure with Fin, who supposedly is this big hero of the rebellion, and it immediately becomes clear that he doesn't have the slightest clue about what the whole conflict is actually about, while she completely understands what's really going on. She knew exactly what they would find on Casino Planet and wasn't in any way surprised by thief guy's reveal to Fin. And when he wants that valuable metal thingy as payment, Fin starts protesting because of sentimental values and unacceptible demands, but Rose doesn't bat an eye and gives it to him. She is trying to save hundreds of people from being killed. Giving up that thingy that only has sentimental value to her is not even a question.

It's not really to put any blame on Fin, but it reveals that his story arc in the movie, and that of the other main characters as well, is really a wish fulfilment story about being a famous hero and being noble that completely ignores the actual realities of the people and soldiers in a civil war. It's actually Fin who is "a naive idealist who's view of the world as black and white is fundamentally wrong with the reveal that the same folks were backing the rebels and the empire." With Rose, suddenly reality kicks in.

And then of course the movie makes the entire point moot some scenes later, like it does with every single point it tries to make.

[Lethologica]

Finn's ignorant, for sure, but he's no idealist. The key point of conflict between him and Rose is precisely that Rose believes in the greater cause of saving the Rebellion, whereas Finn only believes in what's best for himself and the people he personally cares about. What immediately becomes clear to Rose when she meets Finn is he's only interested in saving himself (and Rey). What Finn is protesting when DJ demand's Rose's necklace is that it's her memory of someone she cares about, which to him would be of paramount value; he lacks perspective not because of his ideals, but because he lacks ideals. DJ is what Finn will become if he continues down that path. Instead, he tries to learn from Rose.

And yeah, that arc is mucked up at the end by trying to rush in another lesson about hate vs. love

[Mightymosy]

I don't know about you people complaining about Finn having no ideals.

I want to see you growing up as brainwashed stormtroopers, almost die in a war you don't want to participate in, and when you narrowly escape the evil army that wants to kill you for deserting, you do:return back to their headquarters and help nuke it, again escaping only very narrowingly, getting your spine cut and almost die!

Then after you miracously survive that wound that should have at least crippled you, you wake up on a cruiser that's fallen into a trap and is now hunted down by VASTLY superior forces. The commander you knew is dead or in coma, and a purple haired replacement "leader" tells your friend to shut the f*ck up and doesn't give any hint of an escape plan, not even that there IS a plan.

Then you try to at least save that other person in the galaxy that means something to you - Rey - and you get ELECTROSHOCKED by the "new military" group that is supposed to be the good guys.


You people call it lack of idealism - I call it idealism at the brink of suicidal stupidity.

[Dienekes]

I don't know about you people complaining about Finn having no ideals.

I want to see you growing up as brainwashed stormtroopers, almost die in a war you don't want to participate in, and when you narrowly escape the evil army that wants to kill you for deserting, you do:return back to their headquarters and help nuke it, again escaping only very narrowingly, getting your spine cut and almost die!

Then after you miracously survive that wound that should have at least crippled you, you wake up on a cruiser that's fallen into a trap and is now hunted down by VASTLY superior forces. The commander you knew is dead or in coma, and a purple haired replacement "leader" tells your friend to shut the f*ck up and doesn't give any hint of an escape plan, not even that there IS a plan.

Then you try to at least save that other person in the galaxy that means something to you - Rey - and you get ELECTROSHOCKED by the "new military" group that is supposed to be the good guys.


You people call it lack of idealism - I call it idealism at the brink of suicidal stupidity.

Idealism is not based around actions but about motivations. You can topple a government for many reasons, it can be a blatant power grab, or it can be because you believe the old government is corrupt. Both happen in the Star Wars movies.

On the same token, you can try to storm a super weapon for several reasons. It can be because you actively wholeheartedly believe in the cause that the super weapon will destroy (Wedge Antilles in the Original Star Wars fits this model perfectly, Luke as well though it's also tied in a bit with revenge and wanting to save the personal relationships he made over the course of the movie). Or it can be entirely selfish, something you want is on that super weapon and you're going to go get it (Finn wanted to save Rey, Rey is on the Starkiller Base so he went to go save Rey. On the same token, Han going back to save Luke is a lesser example as well. He may have had a whiff of the Rebellion's ideals about him, but he likely would not have gone back if his buddy Luke wasn't involved). That's not idealism, that's just being tied to personal relationships. Now that doesn't make it bad. Finn is not a lesser character because he isn't an idealist. In the same way Han is not a lesser character than Leia in the first Star Wars. They were both great in different ways.

Hell it doesn't even really make Finn morally bad. He is trying to save his friend in the second movie. That's admirable, regardless of idealism. But he is not a full blown rebel himself until after the arc on the casino planet and turning off the thingamabob on the ship. Where he learns he both cares for and agrees with the rebel movement and makes attempts to protect people even outside of his circle of friends.

[Mightymosy]

Quitting the stormtroopers because killing innocents is bad is very idealistic in my book. Feel free to disagree.

[Dienekes]

Quitting the stormtroopers because killing innocents is bad is very idealistic in my book. Feel free to disagree.

That was not the motivation given for his initial quitting of the troopers. He ran away when his friend died, then used a hokey line about morality to get Poe to side with him (only for Poe to call him out on his more selfish motivations "You need a pilot").

[Mightymosy]

From the TFA script on imdb

CAPTAIN PHASMA
Sir, the villagers.

KYLO REN
Kill them all.
Phasma nods, steps forward:

CAPTAIN PHASMA
On my command!
The Troopers, including OURS, aim at the Villagers.

CAPTAIN PHASMA (CONT'D)
Fire!
Poe is roughly PULLED into a transport ship, the ramp LIFTS.
All around our Trooper BLASTERFIRE ERUPTS -- but we're WIDE
ENOUGH to see he ISN'T FIRING. PUSH IN until the FIRING
STOPS. All the Stormtroopers SPREAD OUT TO SEARCH -- except
ours.



I think "OURS" refers to Finn, but obviously I might be mistaken. I thought it was meant to be Finn reaslising how f*cked up this murdering innocents business is, at that point, and decides to NOT participate any longer and look for an exit plan.

[Dienekes]

From the TFA script on imdb

CAPTAIN PHASMA
Sir, the villagers.

KYLO REN
Kill them all.
Phasma nods, steps forward:

CAPTAIN PHASMA
On my command!
The Troopers, including OURS, aim at the Villagers.

CAPTAIN PHASMA (CONT'D)
Fire!
Poe is roughly PULLED into a transport ship, the ramp LIFTS.
All around our Trooper BLASTERFIRE ERUPTS -- but we're WIDE
ENOUGH to see he ISN'T FIRING. PUSH IN until the FIRING
STOPS. All the Stormtroopers SPREAD OUT TO SEARCH -- except
ours.



I think "OURS" refers to Finn, but obviously I might be mistaken. I thought it was meant to be Finn reaslising how f*cked up this murdering innocents business is, at that point, and decides to NOT participate any longer and look for an exit plan.

Oh it is Finn. And I remember the scene, and him not firing was very brave. But that is not the impetus for his change of heart. He stops firing as soon as Blood-fingers get killed and is useless throughout the remainder of the battle.

[Yora]

I still can't accept that "janitor with no combat experience" is interchangeable with "stormtrooper".

But then, the special commander with unique armor is also a joke.

Someone made the very accurate observation that these movies are trying to make an underdog story in which the supposed underdogs are total badass killing machines that completely outclass their opponents in every conceivable way.

[Fyraltari]

I still can't accept that "janitor with no combat experience" is interchangeable with "stormtrooper".

You can't accept that military training would include mopping the base?

EDIT: Finn was abducted so young that he doesn't even remember the name his parents gave him, sanitation may very well be mandatory for every child under the First Order loving care, teach them discipline and such.

[Mightymosy]

Ok, so then why do YOU think he quit?

[Sapphire Guard]

They put. A guy. In the palace. That was literally the first thing that happened in the plan. Why is the second thing in the plan "rush a bunch more of our people into servitude/imprisonment because we don't have a solid plan," instead of, I dunno, finding out what's in the palace and planning from there? I mean, if each plan is basically "Person X runs in and rescues everyone themselves," why isn't Plan A 'Lando runs in and rescues Han himself," instead of "Lando runs in and waits until we have to rescue Han and R2 and C-3PO and Chewie...and then waits for Leia to run in and rescue everyone"?

If he gets caught, then they're all in trouble and now the palace in alerted, which is why you put everyoner in place beforehand. Maybe he can't freely contact out.

hy not? What is wrong with walking in wearing his lightsaber? Is it going to give away that he's a Jedi? He already announced that! Is it going to be taken away from him if he gets captured? Well, gosh, seems like he could use it to not be captured! Is he going to fight Jabba's guards? Why wait?

What if mindtricking his way to Jabba doesn't work? Suppose Jabba will only talk if he lets himself be searched by security first? It's fairly routine practice to not allow the people negotiating directly with the boss to be armed at the time. If he introduces himself as a Jedi, 'we're not letting you into the same room as the boss armed' is a real possibility.

He wants to talk first, but be ready to fight if things go wrong. Possibility his sabre will be taken away before he gets to talk. Solution: Have a hidden weapon nearby but not on him, so he can pass a search.

My default assumption for things like this is that the people to whom these decisions are life and death know more about their universe than I do (exception if its taking shots at something else). We see that anyone coming into the palace has to bring something to trade to the table. Han is very difficult to escape with, he's unconscious and/or blind. Chewbacca is much easier, he just has to be let out of his cell.

[Dienekes]

Ok, so then why do YOU think he quit?

The loss of a friend, plus the psychological shock of a real battle where people are dying nearly at random. This brings about the realization that despite the New Orders rhetoric of their own importance and superiority the troopers lives don’t matter.

At least that was how I viewed the scene when I saw it (shaped a bit by information witnessed further along, we can’t know that Finn is breaking through First Order rhetoric until we actually see first order rhetoric spewed forth from Commander Weasley).

Now maybe we were meant to realize that Finn had the epiphany all killing is bad. But that is negated by Finn mowing down his brothers a scene and a half later. Or perhaps we were supposed to see that Finn realized murdering innocents is specifically bad. But that runs in conflict with his actually touching mourning scene with Blood-fingers who was in the process of murdering innocents right there.

I’d also question just how strong his ideals were when this supposed champion of innocent knows about the super weapon set to commit several genocides and actively argues against finding ways to save people until one of his core friends is captured and the genocide has already happened.

Fear, shock, self preservation, and a dash of guilt seem the most accurate description of his motivations.

Ultimately the only two people who knows the full motivation are the writer and the actor and often they don’t even agree.

[Lethologica]

I said I was only going back to that conversation if someone added something interesting, SG. As such...

Ok, so then why do YOU think he quit?

He answers that. He decided he wasn't going to kill for the First Order. So he ran. Those are indeed remarkable ethics for someone in his position, but it's not really the same as being an idealist.

[Mightymosy]

Ok, so he did leave because he thought murdering innocent people is bad.

But that doesn't make him an idealist. Ok. So how do you define an idealist?
I would say an idealist is someone who believes in some abstract scheme which he or she thinks the world should be like. And then acts to make that real (more or less, to the capabilities of that character).
Or how would you define the term?

[Lethologica]

Ok, so he did leave because he thought murdering innocent people is bad.

But that doesn't make him an idealist. Ok. So how do you define an idealist?
I would say an idealist is someone who believes in some abstract scheme which he or she thinks the world should be like. And then acts to make that real (more or less, to the capabilities of that character).
Or how would you define the term?

I would add a dimension to that definition, which is where the person falls on the spectrum of acting on ideals vs. on practical or emotional considerations, and I do think Finn tends towards the latter. There's all the lying, for example, which he does for practical and emotional reasons, not because lying is the right thing to do in those situations. The line Dienekes cited earlier - "It's the right thing to do"/"You need a pilot"/"I need a pilot" - is also telling. But that's only part of my opinion about Finn with respect to idealism.

I don't think Finn really has strong beliefs about how the world should be, not in TFA and not at the beginning of TLJ. I think he has strong beliefs about what he does or doesn't want to do, and who he does and doesn't care about. And yes, those beliefs can have ethical grounds, but their scope is narrow. He's not thinking about whether he's capable of effecting change on a broader scale - he isn't interested in effecting broad change in the first place. He wants to be safe, and he wants the people he cares about to be safe. And that's fine - he was never in a position to learn about the broader world, much less have strong beliefs about how it should be, except for whatever the First Order fed him, which didn't take. But it does mean that "someone who believes in abstract principles about how the world should be and then acts to make the world that way" doesn't really fit.

I won't say that Finn is wrong to take the escape pod. But when he goes to the escape pod, he's not acting idealistically - neither expressing nor acting on some abstract principle of right and wrong or how the world should be, how anything should be in a context broader than his immediate experience. He has a friend he cares about, and they'll both be safe if he leaves. That's what he's thinking.

[Mightymosy]

But isn't said friend also very important for the rebels to succeed?
Thus, isn't he helping the greater good here also?


What do you think has changed in Finn?
The impression I got from watching him while he aimed the speeder at the "death star cannon" was that he was so fed up with everything that he just wanted to go out with a bang, so that the suffering would finally be over at least - but I'm fully aware that I might project something here. As I was sitting in the theatre at that point, I was checking my watch and waiting for the movie to end. If my friends hadn't been there with me, I might have exited earlier, but then again morbid curiosity would have kept me in anyway. So maybe I am projecting my feelings at that point into his character....

But back to Finn.
In TFA he was ready to risk his life for his new found friends, in TLJ he is willing to risk his life for his new found friends. In the very end, he is ready to give his life for his new found friends - that might sound slightly different, and it is, but keep in mind that this is in a situation where everything is lost anyway.
If he doesn't ram the death star cannon, everyone will die very soon - including he himself. So he might as well go out with a bang, and if the stars all align right, maybe his friends will live for one more hour, and who knows? A miracle might happen. (as it does)

What I just don't see is how he turned from non-idealistic to idealistic. Did I miss important lines?
When he makes his sacrifice, he is likely dead anyway, and he has a chance to save Poe - the guy who saved him before. If trying to save Rey was not idealistic, then I can't understand why trying to save Poe and the rest suddenly is idealistic.